I do not think that my life has been hijacked, also I do not tihink that I am or was brainwashed neither possessed.
I think That The Word teaching me by The Way, maid me Love God and do His Works.
I was in college when I took the PFAL class, it takes me 12 years to finished it,but I finished. During that time I lost my fellow brothers in Christ thath follow Chris Geer, very few return from Mexico to Headquarters, very few believe That LCM was doing his best for God. Just 2 twigs from 60 or so stand after the drawing of the line.
In that time the girl that I use to love stand with the main body of believers in Mexico, The Next Year she dies.
Most of the Mexicans go to the states to make money. During the 1993 Rock I knew I Way Corps student that invite me to be his spiritual parter, to give him money for he can finish the program. In that time you need 3 pesos to buy one dollar. But I agree and participate. Plus I abudantly share more than 10 %. 12 % I do not think that money is a problem neither that I lost money or time. I did what I love and think was the best to do.
I think That: "the True" is important. The True of the Word, The True of the facts.
Also my twig coordinator, brother and friend Fabian, died.
During those years I use to run household fellowships 3 day per week, classes and limb fellowships.
I also lost the ones that now stand with the Way.
Right now I am alone in some form, no believers, just RC arround me. But I still Love God and His Word and Trying to find to hum I should fellowship. I do not feel angry with LCM; VPW or The Way.
When I left I formed a family, wife and baby girl. Now we live with my mother who is very old 87. I have a good Job.
I assume my responsibility in all what I did.
I Just thinK: what I am Going to said to God when I am going to be in frot of Him? Also I think that R-R-R is what I should do. :P
Wow thats all incredibly sad rascal---It is sort of interesting to me that we spent hundreds (thousands ??) of dollars and sacrificed huge chunks of our youth so that they could tell us to listen to that "still small voice" While all the while they were stifling and controlling any chance it had of appearring in our lives.
I begin to think that there is something far much more sinister than our noble but miguided leaders being simply *human* and prone to making a few *errors* in judgement.
The low level leaders in my opinion were for the most part just as duped as any of us were and generally stupid as a bag of rocks especially when dispensing advise. It was ultimately our error to listen to them but it was part of the whole sick system that we learned.
I moved to fargo nd the most inhospitable and miserable place on the planet because well meaning leaders deemed that to return to home and family would cause me to spiritually *die*
Home and family bad for you spiritually? Whoever TF came up with that gem of biblicalresearch? ( I heard it to)...geesh..looking at it in hindsight it is hard for me to believe how far these morons were off base in almost everything that they did. As far as them being 'well meaning', I dont doubt that they thought that they were right but if they actually meant well they would have looked alittle deeper into things in the first place.
As far as it being sinister--I have gone back and forth over the years and lately have relegated it to the far far back burner.
because for me it is so long ago--but I personally think Wierwille was a very very insecure and dishonest man who consciously or otherwise built controls and unending hoops into the system so that he would be revered, in control and have his ego unendingly stroked.
Im pretty sure he knew what he was doing but was somehow able to justify it within himself because his conscience was so seared by his doctrinal atrocities
I am astonished that everything that I loved, literaly everything that was of importance to me, every activity that I enjoyed, all of my education and career goals pre twi was at some point deemed *unspiritual* and I was pressured relentlessly untill I gave it up.
Damn!! What years were those??
I had some run-ins with *leadership*, but nothing like that at all.
In my opinion, your true historical self, in the personal context of your own general reality orientation, was purposefully destabilized by TWI in order to soften you up mentally for the non-consented covert packaged persuasion that VPW dumped on you at a time when you were temporarily vulnerable and therefore much more susceptible to conversational daze induction.
There is an important distinction to be made between the political thought reform of the 40’s & 50’s as opposed to the newer techniques utilized by TWI. The newer versions have been built on the edifice of age-old, subtle influence techniques to all but perfect amazingly successful coordinated programs of non-consented persuasion and change.
What’s new and crucial is that these strategically coordinated programs change attitudes by attacking essential aspects of a your sense of true historical self, unlike the older thought reform programs that primarily confronted someone’s political beliefs.
TWI’s strategically coordinated programs were purposefully designed to destabilize your sense of self by undermining your basic consciousness, reality awareness, beliefs and worldview, emotional control, and healthy mental defense mechanisms. This attack on your central stability, or concept of your true historical self, & on your personal capacity for self-evaluation is a major technique utilized by TWI.
Moreover, this attack was carried out under a variety of TWI-designed guises and conditions – which probably did not involve forced confinement or direct physical coercion - but rather TWI utilized a covert, subtle and powerful psychological process of destabilization and induced dependency.
Thought reform is not experienced as a fever or pain might be; it is an invisible social adaptation. When you are the subject of it, you are not aware of the intent of the influence processes that are going on, and especially, you are not aware of the non-consented changes taking place within you.
A coordinated program of TWI coercive packaged persuasion is not a one shot event but a gradual process of breaking down and transformation to the point that ‘you’ develop a new mental outlook and a new psychic attitude, the TWI cultic ‘new man’ in its hermetic ‘christ,’ enamored of its bogus ‘mystery,’ & inspired by the counterfeit knowledge of ‘the law of believing’ & ‘manifestations’ of the ‘spirtual realm.’
These systematic manipulations by TWI of social and psychological influences under particular conditions are termed programs because the means by which change is brought about is coordinated. And it is because the changes cause the learning & adoption of a certain set of attitudes, usually accompanied by a certain set of behaviors, that the effort and the result are termed thought reform or packaged persuasion.
The tactics of TWI’s thought reform program are purposefully designed to:
Destabilize your sense of true historical self;
Get you to drastically reinterpret your life’s history and radically alter your worldview in order to accept the cult’s version of reality and causality; &,
Develop in you a dependence on the cultic organization, and thereby become ‘transformed’ into a deployable agent of TWI.
Rascal, we’re so thrilled that you snapped out of it & returned to your true historical self!!!
That was the most moving testimony I have seen yet. I hope I speak not only for myself and my wife but for most here saying we love you and never would have seen you go through the things you did. Yet I know I witnessed a lot of these things happening to others. I left and tried talking others, for their own sake, into leaving.
I got no one to leave, but ultimately those I spoke with left on their own several years later.
Rascal, I can certainly relate to what you experienced.
There was literally no time for anything other than ministry activities, work, housekeeping etc. If you liked to garden, or participate in sports, or read books etc--there was no time. We had retemories, the tapes and mags to 'work,' at least one teaching (each spouse)a week to prepare, based on the tapes, mag or WAP class, not to mention the cross town drive, so that the one hour household fellowship took the entire evening. Advanced class grads had a schedule for reworking the Advanced class materials, too.Then there was the limb home to help with on the weekends, the refreshments to bake. Oh, and witnessing nights not on a fellowship night, so we could drag our 'fruit' to fellowship.
Our earthly families were not deemed important, and even worse, if you had young children, leadership was impatient with the time and needs they had. They wanted convenient children, the kind who don't wiggle or cry or get sick on fellowship nights, who don't have homework or t ball or any other time consuming thing that might keep a parent from a fellowship.
Once we left we started to find the interests we once held, like gardening, camping...
TheMEX ..... thank God you formed your family after you left. Or you might have been looking at a different outcome ....... the single man can run fellowship 3 times week, attend all classes, even coordinate classes.
Have you thought about the families who did that plus worked a 40 hour a week job. Kids unable to attend Tae Kwon Do or music lessons or ballet because it interupted your fellowship time and classes.
Our kids were stollen from us and we stole from our kids the up bringing they should have had. So that they could learn to love God on their own terms. Not resented him because they were forced to sit absolutely still and quite without a word ........ while their childhood classmates were learning sports, with their parents supporting them.
My Limb Coordinator took my child out into the hall after a fellowship was over at the LCs house and with a wooden spoon wacked him several times and showed me how to spank my child properly ...... brand new LC, my kiddo was 18 mos old, first time in there home and he was restless, just getting over the chicken pocks.
We walked out the first time right after this in 1995 ...... wrote LCM and RS and they gave us a break from fellowship, from teaching and we stayed away for 2 months and came back because we still believed this man was just wrong and that TWI was the place we were suppose to be.
I had very well behaved children before this ........... in fact they were scared to death after awhile to even move when the ministry went through its transition period with LCM.
Yah Our lives were stolen ......... crappy thing is ........ we allowed it. We should be able to love God and follow his word and still enjoy the life he has blessed us with.
While reading through these incidents, I realized there was ONE time I can remember where the "leaders" blew it with their manipulation.
I was in the corps in Emporia, 1st year, and it must have been springtime. Me, 2 other 9th (one was 2life's husband, the other (hereros) was Kipplinger) and a 7th corps went GOLFING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think it was a self-destruction Saturday. Or was that self-structured?? In any event, someone UP THERE blew it by not restricting us from golfing.
But then again, maybe not, because the golf course in Emporia, which was near the 4-animal zoo & the 1-star airport, looked more like the zoo than a real golf course. I seem to recall I had the lowest score that day... hope Mr. 2Life has been practicing...
Your account is so similar to mine, its scary. I got involved with twi at a young and vulnerable age when I was looking for answers and looking for a purpose, but over the next 20 years I gave up everything I liked and enjoyed and felt good doing. I sacrificed my own personal "wants" in order to do what I thought was "a greater good". I derailed my career plans, sacrificed my family loyalties, spent a good-sized inheritance on twi-demanded activities and programs, and gave up my personal freedom of choice on who I would spend time with, what social activities I engaged in, what music I listened to, what food I ate, what pets I could own, what house I would live in and how I would decorate and clean it, what jobs I would take, what medical decisions I made, how to treat my husband and how to raise my own child.
Like you, I am amazed and appalled at the control I let them have over me. I deeply regret the loss of years of my life. And nothing they "gave me" (ie knowledge of the bible) comes close to replacing what they took from me.
When I got out a few years back, I found myself (as Ex stated) exactly right back at the beginning, and having to begin the life at 40, that I should have been beginning at 20. Buying my first home, trying to find a way to go back to college so I can someday be making a decent salary, figuring out what hobbies I like and remembering that it's okay to like them, learning to do something for "me" and not feel guilty, learning how to be patient and kind to strangers with no strings attached, and hardest of all: trying to trust again.
I'm truly happy for anyone who benefitted from the way international. I really am. But, I know a lot more people who are just like us -- displaced in our own lives -- than people who walked away without harm.
Hang in there, Rascal. I keep reminding myself that the best revenge is a life well-lived. And I, for one, plan to live for a lot more years still...
That's a very wonderful summation and account of what TWI did to so many of us. :( Pity so many of us relate all too well to your experiences.
I consider myself lucky in that I had already finished college and started on a promising career path before falling for TWI's tricks.
I, did, however give up any and all hobbies because there just wasn't time for them.
I gave up my chance to have kids because my ex-husband believed that if we couldn't afford for me to stay home with the kids, then we shouldn't have any (thanks to TWI's "suggestions).
I, too, strained the relationships with my family and friends. For all intents and purposes, I lost all my friends and I'm having to start from scratch, which is hard to do when you're nearly 40 and have "trust issues". :blink:
Thankfully, as someone wisely posted earlier, the spirit is resilient and we do have each other here. All of us experienced different things because of where we were, who our leaders were and when we were involved. Also, some of the "stronger" individuals who didn't just roll over on their backs were picked on more and in more psychological ways if the local leadership was threatened or afraid of them.
Some people, too, value different things than we might and don't consider any sacrifices they may have made as being such a big deal. That's fine for them, but it doesn't change our experience, pain and/or losses - nor should it minimize them.
You're one tough cookie, Rascal - a tough cookie with a heart of gold! You have a precious family and your life is certainly the living well of revenge! You have a life they can only DREAM of having! Besides that, IF I ever get to have a little girl, she's gonna be named after your little-est one. What MORE could you ask for? :D
In my opinion, your true historical self, in the personal context of your own general reality orientation, was purposefully destabilized by TWI in order to soften you up mentally for the non-consented covert packaged persuasion that VPW dumped on you at a time when you were temporarily vulnerable and therefore much more susceptible to conversational daze induction.
There is an important distinction to be made between the political thought reform of the 40’s & 50’s as opposed to the newer techniques utilized by TWI. The newer versions have been built on the edifice of age-old, subtle influence techniques to all but perfect amazingly successful coordinated programs of non-consented persuasion and change.
[etc.]
I don't think Wierwille was smart enough to come up with all these techniques on his own, and may not have been even conciously aware of employing such; the fact of the matter is, there is already an abundance of material throughout the Bible itself relating to the forsaking of one's true "historical self", of a forsaking (and even "hating") father and mother, brother and sister (in order to become a disciple be it of Jesus or anyone else), of accounting all one's prior upbringing, education and experience as "dung" for the "excellency of Christ", of putting off the old man and putting on the new, and so on. Instilling a sense of alienation against the world and even one's own self - jeesh, one only need review the "Gospel of John"
(e.g., "the world hates me, the world hates you, the world is out to get you, etc., etc.")
The essential elements providing the potential for the mind-control stuff you described is already present in the Bible, as well as throughout other religions. There's seemingly little "new" about the brain-washing techniques you described. Religions -both true and false alike -have been employing these for centuries.
I'm new here but the subject of this thread was something I was thinking about jus tthe other day. I started in TWI while I was in College in NYC - 1978. I was studying to be an illustrator. A 1 2/2 yrs later I was in the 10th corps. I left at the end of my third year and I have never been back to finish that degree.
I had to give up art for that year and because I had to give my very expensive art supplies to someone to hold - who kept them - it was quite a long time before I returned to art. Now I teach drawing and Paint - I am in a local gallery.
I'v had a family and I make sure that the girls get to ballet and piano.
I'm a bit different in that although I regret the time wasted and the mistakes I made, I just don't focus on it all that much. - Why take even more time away from what I love? (family and hobbies) I am not going to give TWI anymore time than it has already taken. Yes I am here on this site - but I am still looking to get some things back - some great friends that I lost track of. I made tha mistake of laying low when I decided to leave TWI in 1988/89 so as not to put any of my firends in the awkward position of having to fellowship with an unbeliever.
Sorry about all the rambling. I'll get the hang of this soon enough.
I'm a bit different in that although I regret the time wasted and the mistakes I made, I just don't focus on it all that much. - Why take even more time away from what I love? (family and hobbies) I am not going to give TWI anymore time than it has already taken.
Doojable -- welcome to Greasespot. :)
I don't dwell on the past either, and the time I spend here is devoted to me and the others here, not twi. Twi is a closed chapter in my life, but I find it comforting to talk and reminisce (sp?) with others who have gone through the same *junk* that I did.
And in doing so, I have found a big *family* of folks to relate to about all sorts of things. Some think the same as I, and some think different. Even the disagreements I have here are more enlightening than the *agreements* I had with the twig, branch, or limb way back when.
Good luck on finding the folks you are looking for.
And I hope you don't consider your time here *wasted*, or giving time to twi.
I don't, and I think most here think similarly. We are regaining what was stolen from us, one post at a time. Although twi is the *common denominator*, each and every one of us is the main subject, and not twi.
Thankfully, most here see that, and do their best to help others pull themselves up through conversation, discussion, etc. I've made many mistakes in the past (twi was just one of them), and I find myself thinking (these days) about how I might have done better, all the time.
Just because I try to rectify, or justify mistakes from the past, doesn't mean I am paying homage to them by thinking about them.
Hope you stick around. This is a great place, with wonderful folks. :)
I don't think Wierwille was smart enough to come up with all these techniques on his own, and may not have been even conciously aware of employing such;
I do think he was intelligent enough to do so. His education exceed that of Sun Young Moon (?sp), L. Ron Hubbard, Elizabeth Claire Prophet, & most cult leaders.
the fact of the matter is, there is already an abundance of material throughout the Bible itself relating to the forsaking of one's true "historical self", of a forsaking (and even "hating") father and mother, brother and sister (in order to become a disciple be it of Jesus or anyone else), of accounting all one's prior upbringing, education and experience as "dung" for the "excellency of Christ", of putting off the old man and putting on the new, and so on.
I could not honestly equate dispensing with one’s true historical self with the same as TWI-styled ‘renewed mind’ thought reform & covert packaged persuasion.
In the typical protestant main-line denominational churches of our era, no pressure in placed on individuals to perform in certain way, nor is there the strong emphasis on leaderships’ unquestioned ‘authority’ with corresponding ‘balls to the wall obedience’ (the latter a favorite phrase of lcm). However, numerous cults, such as TWI, do ‘demand’ this level of performance ‘churchianity.’
Instilling a sense of alienation against the world and even one's own self - jeesh, one only need review the "Gospel of John" (e.g., "the world hates me, the world hates you, the world is out to get you, etc., etc.")
I would disagree. In a healthy-minded denominational church, there appears to be no pressure to mentally or physically alienate oneself and family from the ‘world.’ These more so balanced folks appear to realize that they are in the world, but not of it.
The essential elements providing the potential for the mind-control stuff you described is already present in the Bible, as well as throughout other religions.
I strongly disagree.
Thought reform, covert packaged persuasion, coordinated programs of psycho-social coercive persuasion, etc. are NOT taught in the Bible.
Certain religious bodies of course operate in this fashion, but they have crossed the line & imperiled their Constitutional First Amendments protections, having transgressed the intrinsic ‘no harm’ rule of jurisprudence in these matters.
What appears to be taught in typical denominational main-line churhes is a manner of non-coerced, gentle, gradual, elevation of disposition, the ethical high road, as it were.
There's seemingly little "new" about the brain-washing techniques you described. Religions -both true and false alike -have been employing these for centuries.”
I disagree.
Unethical cults have been practicing some form of thought reform techniques for centuries. As state above, these have been refined since the 1960’s with an emphasis on attacking one’s self & destabilizing one’s general reality orientation.
Also, the Roman Catholic hierarchy, especially in its Jesuit arm, have often times crossed the line from consented elevation of disposition, to coerced thought reform, most notably via the ‘spiritual exercises’ of St. Ignatius of Loyola. More recently, there is some concern with the extreme practices of Opus Dei. Why would people injured by the Jesuits and Opus Dei not resort to legal remedies? The fate of predatory priests yields a reasonable legal template to follow.
There would appear to be an unmistakable charitable chasm between healthy ‘spirituality’ and sick (pathological) cultic religion.
... The essential elements providing the potential for the mind-control stuff you described is already present in the Bible, as well as throughout other religions. There's seemingly little "new" about the brain-washing techniques you described. Religions -both true and false alike -have been employing these for centuries.
Danny
I agree...good points.
I bet Paul's conversion on the road to Damascus, among many other examples, generated some pretty remarkable neuron changes in Paul's brain.
Golly, I wonder if Jesus was even concerned imperiling Paul's Constitutional First Amendment rights when he assaulted Paul with non-consensual thought reform packaged persuasion?
QUOTE(TheInvisibleDan @ Nov 30 2005, 01:09 AM) ... The essential elements providing the potential for the mind-control stuff you described is already present in the Bible, as well as throughout other religions. There's seemingly little "new" about the brain-washing techniques you described. Religions -both true and false alike -have been employing these for centuries.
Danny_____________________
Per OM:
I agree...good points.
I bet Paul's conversion on the road to Damascus, among many other examples, generated some pretty remarkable neuron changes in Paul's brain.
Golly, I wonder if Jesus was even concerned imperiling Paul's Constitutional First Amendment rights when he assaulted Paul with non-consensual thought reform packaged persuasion?
_______________
Paul's conversion: This is the very example VPW used at a lunch-time sharing @ Emporia in 1978 when he was bashing the book by Conway & Siegelman, SNAPPING. VPW couldn't very well let a little validated neuroscience get in the way of his cult-dom, now could he? You & your Vader Herr Vierville make such a nice epistemological pair!
Paul's rights as a Roman citizen: Even though much of Roman law is the precursor to English law & subsequently USA law, unfortunately, as far as I know, the Romans had not yet elaborated the equivalents of our First Amendment rights. We will need to keep in mind, however, that perhaps, just perhaps the intercessor, mediator, & defense attorney might have 'mosseyed' up to the Bench for a brief conference that would forever foreshadow that ultimate eventuation whereof you speak? After all, who has known the mind of God that he might instruct Him? Only you, Job, VPW, & LCM?
What appears to be taught in typical denominational main-line churhes is a manner of non-coerced, gentle, gradual, elevation of disposition, the ethical high road, as it were.
Such as the non-coercive material from say, the RC church, that unless you obey all of their sacraments, you haven't got a chance to enter the Kingdom of God?
Sorry those of you who responded - I lost track of this thread. I am actually glad that I found you guys - all in all we were all a great group - fun for the most part anyway. oakspear - which college were you in in NYC when you took the class? We just might know each other - that was a tight group in that there town. (OOps texan slipping in!)
Just to be clear - I remained a believer but not one with TWI. It all got too "line in the sand " for me way too quickly over very petty stuff.
It seemed to me that we were using the very same Word that God had given to bring us together as a tool for division. That was just a bunch of bull.
I have always kinda marched to my own drummer (he's there in my head right now..Heh heh heh)
I don't consider this time wasted - I just hope that I can figure out how to get in touch with more folks - after all that's why i'm here.:)
I do think he was intelligent enough to do so. His education exceed that of Sun Young Moon (?sp), L. Ron Hubbard, Elizabeth Claire Prophet, & most cult leaders.
I'll grant that he was a gifted gatherer and organizer, to have done so effective job toward compiling and selling PFAL. But a considerable bulk of its content, as has been discussed elsewhere, was borrowed (or plagiarized) from others. Which doesn't require much brainprower.
I've seen Elizabeth Clare Prophet on TV from time to time; I think she actually exceeds Wierwille in the I.Q. department (as may Moon), though she appears just as whacky.
I could not honestly equate dispensing with one’s true historical self with the same as TWI-styled ‘renewed mind’ thought reform & covert packaged persuasion.
In the typical protestant main-line denominational churches of our era, no pressure in placed on individuals to perform in certain way, nor is there the strong emphasis on leaderships’ unquestioned ‘authority’ with corresponding ‘balls to the wall obedience’ (the latter a favorite phrase of lcm). However, numerous cults, such as TWI, do ‘demand’ this level of performance ‘churchianity.’[/size]
It's always always a matter of debate whether or not the Way's renewed mind teaching reflected the intentions of the writer, but nonetheless - the material is present in the NT, among many other notions similarly expressing the idea of "change" and "conversion" or "becoming" a Christian. Wierwille didn't require a college education to find such things upon which to utilize or capitalize. He needed to look no further than his Bible. And he certainly made use of it.
I would disagree. In a healthy-minded denominational church, there appears to be no pressure to mentally or physically alienate oneself and family from the ‘world.’ These more so balanced folks appear to realize that they are in the world, but not of it.
That may be fine for today's "typical protestant main-line denominational churchs" but is not descriptive of all denominations outside the Protestants; nor is it reflective of the different Christianites throughout history.
When one contemplates the early Christian movements during the opening centuries of Christianity, from a 21st century standpoint we would be compelled to question how "healthy" such actually were in view of the persecutions, the martydoms of untold thousands of lives, the practices of self-sacrifice and ascetism; not to mention the divisions in families that occured when people left behind their old life to join these new Christian "cults". Not to overlook the challenges Christianity offered against the status "norm" of Roman society.
Thought reform, covert packaged persuasion, coordinated programs of psycho-social coercive persuasion, etc. are NOT taught in the Bible.
"thought reform" is open to question (in my view), if we're concerned with what was required to become disciples of Jesus. And it was no walk in the park, as has been made so palpable today.
As far as forms of "coersive persuasion", even Paul directed much space to the legalistic rival apostles at Jerusalem, accusing them of their perversion of the Gospel and even their abuse of people (2 Cor.11:20):
19 For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise.
20 For ye suffer, if a man bring you into bondage, if a man devour you, if a man take of you, if a man exalt himself, if a man smite you on the face.
Sounds like no church I'de want to go to. But it appears quite close to what the Way had become.
What appears to be taught in typical denominational main-line churhes is a manner of non-coerced, gentle, gradual, elevation of disposition, the ethical high road, as it were.
If descriptive of all denominational mainline churches today, - for which I hold a certain, healthy skeptism - it's not an ideal I disagree with, and for that matter, even prefer. But historically - such would appear to have been the extraordinary exception and not the norm.
Unethical cults have been practicing some form of thought reform techniques for centuries. As state above, these have been refined since the 1960’s with an emphasis on attacking one’s self & destabilizing one’s general reality orientation.
So the saying goes, there's nothing 'new under the sun". But "ethical" movements also promote some form of "thought reform" (whatever one may wish to call them). But God forbid it may be difficult to observe as being present in one's own theology or philosophy.
When one contemplates the early Christian movements during the opening centuries of Christianity, from a 21st century standpoint we would be compelled to question how "healthy" such actually were in view of the persecutions, the martydoms of untold thousands of lives, the practices of self-sacrifice and ascetism; not to mention the divisions in families that occured when people left behind their old life to join these new Christian "cults". Not to overlook the challenges Christianity offered against the status "norm" of Roman society.
Recommended Posts
themex
I do not think that my life has been hijacked, also I do not tihink that I am or was brainwashed neither possessed.
I think That The Word teaching me by The Way, maid me Love God and do His Works.
I was in college when I took the PFAL class, it takes me 12 years to finished it,but I finished. During that time I lost my fellow brothers in Christ thath follow Chris Geer, very few return from Mexico to Headquarters, very few believe That LCM was doing his best for God. Just 2 twigs from 60 or so stand after the drawing of the line.
In that time the girl that I use to love stand with the main body of believers in Mexico, The Next Year she dies.
Most of the Mexicans go to the states to make money. During the 1993 Rock I knew I Way Corps student that invite me to be his spiritual parter, to give him money for he can finish the program. In that time you need 3 pesos to buy one dollar. But I agree and participate. Plus I abudantly share more than 10 %. 12 % I do not think that money is a problem neither that I lost money or time. I did what I love and think was the best to do.
I think That: "the True" is important. The True of the Word, The True of the facts.
Also my twig coordinator, brother and friend Fabian, died.
During those years I use to run household fellowships 3 day per week, classes and limb fellowships.
I also lost the ones that now stand with the Way.
Right now I am alone in some form, no believers, just RC arround me. But I still Love God and His Word and Trying to find to hum I should fellowship. I do not feel angry with LCM; VPW or The Way.
When I left I formed a family, wife and baby girl. Now we live with my mother who is very old 87. I have a good Job.
I assume my responsibility in all what I did.
I Just thinK: what I am Going to said to God when I am going to be in frot of Him? Also I think that R-R-R is what I should do. :P
Edited by themexLink to comment
Share on other sites
mstar1
Wow thats all incredibly sad rascal---It is sort of interesting to me that we spent hundreds (thousands ??) of dollars and sacrificed huge chunks of our youth so that they could tell us to listen to that "still small voice" While all the while they were stifling and controlling any chance it had of appearring in our lives.
The low level leaders in my opinion were for the most part just as duped as any of us were and generally stupid as a bag of rocks especially when dispensing advise. It was ultimately our error to listen to them but it was part of the whole sick system that we learned.Home and family bad for you spiritually? Whoever TF came up with that gem of biblicalresearch? ( I heard it to)...geesh..looking at it in hindsight it is hard for me to believe how far these morons were off base in almost everything that they did. As far as them being 'well meaning', I dont doubt that they thought that they were right but if they actually meant well they would have looked alittle deeper into things in the first place.
As far as it being sinister--I have gone back and forth over the years and lately have relegated it to the far far back burner.
because for me it is so long ago--but I personally think Wierwille was a very very insecure and dishonest man who consciously or otherwise built controls and unending hoops into the system so that he would be revered, in control and have his ego unendingly stroked.
Im pretty sure he knew what he was doing but was somehow able to justify it within himself because his conscience was so seared by his doctrinal atrocities
Link to comment
Share on other sites
dmiller
Damn!! What years were those??
I had some run-ins with *leadership*, but nothing like that at all.
David
Link to comment
Share on other sites
jkboehme
In my opinion, your true historical self, in the personal context of your own general reality orientation, was purposefully destabilized by TWI in order to soften you up mentally for the non-consented covert packaged persuasion that VPW dumped on you at a time when you were temporarily vulnerable and therefore much more susceptible to conversational daze induction.
There is an important distinction to be made between the political thought reform of the 40’s & 50’s as opposed to the newer techniques utilized by TWI. The newer versions have been built on the edifice of age-old, subtle influence techniques to all but perfect amazingly successful coordinated programs of non-consented persuasion and change.
What’s new and crucial is that these strategically coordinated programs change attitudes by attacking essential aspects of a your sense of true historical self, unlike the older thought reform programs that primarily confronted someone’s political beliefs.
TWI’s strategically coordinated programs were purposefully designed to destabilize your sense of self by undermining your basic consciousness, reality awareness, beliefs and worldview, emotional control, and healthy mental defense mechanisms. This attack on your central stability, or concept of your true historical self, & on your personal capacity for self-evaluation is a major technique utilized by TWI.
Moreover, this attack was carried out under a variety of TWI-designed guises and conditions – which probably did not involve forced confinement or direct physical coercion - but rather TWI utilized a covert, subtle and powerful psychological process of destabilization and induced dependency.
Thought reform is not experienced as a fever or pain might be; it is an invisible social adaptation. When you are the subject of it, you are not aware of the intent of the influence processes that are going on, and especially, you are not aware of the non-consented changes taking place within you.
A coordinated program of TWI coercive packaged persuasion is not a one shot event but a gradual process of breaking down and transformation to the point that ‘you’ develop a new mental outlook and a new psychic attitude, the TWI cultic ‘new man’ in its hermetic ‘christ,’ enamored of its bogus ‘mystery,’ & inspired by the counterfeit knowledge of ‘the law of believing’ & ‘manifestations’ of the ‘spirtual realm.’
These systematic manipulations by TWI of social and psychological influences under particular conditions are termed programs because the means by which change is brought about is coordinated. And it is because the changes cause the learning & adoption of a certain set of attitudes, usually accompanied by a certain set of behaviors, that the effort and the result are termed thought reform or packaged persuasion.
The tactics of TWI’s thought reform program are purposefully designed to:
Rascal, we’re so thrilled that you snapped out of it & returned to your true historical self!!!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
wow
i was trying to "find myself" not in the hippie sense but from an abused child sense
and then after the way ministry i had to start from scratch or even worse
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Eagle
rascal:
That was the most moving testimony I have seen yet. I hope I speak not only for myself and my wife but for most here saying we love you and never would have seen you go through the things you did. Yet I know I witnessed a lot of these things happening to others. I left and tried talking others, for their own sake, into leaving.
I got no one to leave, but ultimately those I spoke with left on their own several years later.
Eagle
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bramble
Rascal, I can certainly relate to what you experienced.
There was literally no time for anything other than ministry activities, work, housekeeping etc. If you liked to garden, or participate in sports, or read books etc--there was no time. We had retemories, the tapes and mags to 'work,' at least one teaching (each spouse)a week to prepare, based on the tapes, mag or WAP class, not to mention the cross town drive, so that the one hour household fellowship took the entire evening. Advanced class grads had a schedule for reworking the Advanced class materials, too.Then there was the limb home to help with on the weekends, the refreshments to bake. Oh, and witnessing nights not on a fellowship night, so we could drag our 'fruit' to fellowship.
Our earthly families were not deemed important, and even worse, if you had young children, leadership was impatient with the time and needs they had. They wanted convenient children, the kind who don't wiggle or cry or get sick on fellowship nights, who don't have homework or t ball or any other time consuming thing that might keep a parent from a fellowship.
Once we left we started to find the interests we once held, like gardening, camping...
Edited by BrambleLink to comment
Share on other sites
Digitalis
TheMEX ..... thank God you formed your family after you left. Or you might have been looking at a different outcome ....... the single man can run fellowship 3 times week, attend all classes, even coordinate classes.
Have you thought about the families who did that plus worked a 40 hour a week job. Kids unable to attend Tae Kwon Do or music lessons or ballet because it interupted your fellowship time and classes.
Our kids were stollen from us and we stole from our kids the up bringing they should have had. So that they could learn to love God on their own terms. Not resented him because they were forced to sit absolutely still and quite without a word ........ while their childhood classmates were learning sports, with their parents supporting them.
My Limb Coordinator took my child out into the hall after a fellowship was over at the LCs house and with a wooden spoon wacked him several times and showed me how to spank my child properly ...... brand new LC, my kiddo was 18 mos old, first time in there home and he was restless, just getting over the chicken pocks.
We walked out the first time right after this in 1995 ...... wrote LCM and RS and they gave us a break from fellowship, from teaching and we stayed away for 2 months and came back because we still believed this man was just wrong and that TWI was the place we were suppose to be.
I had very well behaved children before this ........... in fact they were scared to death after awhile to even move when the ministry went through its transition period with LCM.
Yah Our lives were stolen ......... crappy thing is ........ we allowed it. We should be able to love God and follow his word and still enjoy the life he has blessed us with.
Digi
Link to comment
Share on other sites
tomtuttle1
While reading through these incidents, I realized there was ONE time I can remember where the "leaders" blew it with their manipulation.
I was in the corps in Emporia, 1st year, and it must have been springtime. Me, 2 other 9th (one was 2life's husband, the other (hereros) was Kipplinger) and a 7th corps went GOLFING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think it was a self-destruction Saturday. Or was that self-structured?? In any event, someone UP THERE blew it by not restricting us from golfing.
But then again, maybe not, because the golf course in Emporia, which was near the 4-animal zoo & the 1-star airport, looked more like the zoo than a real golf course. I seem to recall I had the lowest score that day... hope Mr. 2Life has been practicing...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheHighWay
Rascal,
Your account is so similar to mine, its scary. I got involved with twi at a young and vulnerable age when I was looking for answers and looking for a purpose, but over the next 20 years I gave up everything I liked and enjoyed and felt good doing. I sacrificed my own personal "wants" in order to do what I thought was "a greater good". I derailed my career plans, sacrificed my family loyalties, spent a good-sized inheritance on twi-demanded activities and programs, and gave up my personal freedom of choice on who I would spend time with, what social activities I engaged in, what music I listened to, what food I ate, what pets I could own, what house I would live in and how I would decorate and clean it, what jobs I would take, what medical decisions I made, how to treat my husband and how to raise my own child.
Like you, I am amazed and appalled at the control I let them have over me. I deeply regret the loss of years of my life. And nothing they "gave me" (ie knowledge of the bible) comes close to replacing what they took from me.
When I got out a few years back, I found myself (as Ex stated) exactly right back at the beginning, and having to begin the life at 40, that I should have been beginning at 20. Buying my first home, trying to find a way to go back to college so I can someday be making a decent salary, figuring out what hobbies I like and remembering that it's okay to like them, learning to do something for "me" and not feel guilty, learning how to be patient and kind to strangers with no strings attached, and hardest of all: trying to trust again.
I'm truly happy for anyone who benefitted from the way international. I really am. But, I know a lot more people who are just like us -- displaced in our own lives -- than people who walked away without harm.
Hang in there, Rascal. I keep reminding myself that the best revenge is a life well-lived. And I, for one, plan to live for a lot more years still...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Belle
(((((((RASCAL)))))))))))
That's a very wonderful summation and account of what TWI did to so many of us. :( Pity so many of us relate all too well to your experiences.
I consider myself lucky in that I had already finished college and started on a promising career path before falling for TWI's tricks.
I, did, however give up any and all hobbies because there just wasn't time for them.
I gave up my chance to have kids because my ex-husband believed that if we couldn't afford for me to stay home with the kids, then we shouldn't have any (thanks to TWI's "suggestions).
I, too, strained the relationships with my family and friends. For all intents and purposes, I lost all my friends and I'm having to start from scratch, which is hard to do when you're nearly 40 and have "trust issues". :blink:
Thankfully, as someone wisely posted earlier, the spirit is resilient and we do have each other here. All of us experienced different things because of where we were, who our leaders were and when we were involved. Also, some of the "stronger" individuals who didn't just roll over on their backs were picked on more and in more psychological ways if the local leadership was threatened or afraid of them.
Some people, too, value different things than we might and don't consider any sacrifices they may have made as being such a big deal. That's fine for them, but it doesn't change our experience, pain and/or losses - nor should it minimize them.
You're one tough cookie, Rascal - a tough cookie with a heart of gold! You have a precious family and your life is certainly the living well of revenge! You have a life they can only DREAM of having! Besides that, IF I ever get to have a little girl, she's gonna be named after your little-est one.
What MORE could you ask for? :D
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheInvisibleDan
I don't think Wierwille was smart enough to come up with all these techniques on his own, and may not have been even conciously aware of employing such; the fact of the matter is, there is already an abundance of material throughout the Bible itself relating to the forsaking of one's true "historical self", of a forsaking (and even "hating") father and mother, brother and sister (in order to become a disciple be it of Jesus or anyone else), of accounting all one's prior upbringing, education and experience as "dung" for the "excellency of Christ", of putting off the old man and putting on the new, and so on. Instilling a sense of alienation against the world and even one's own self - jeesh, one only need review the "Gospel of John"
(e.g., "the world hates me, the world hates you, the world is out to get you, etc., etc.")
The essential elements providing the potential for the mind-control stuff you described is already present in the Bible, as well as throughout other religions. There's seemingly little "new" about the brain-washing techniques you described. Religions -both true and false alike -have been employing these for centuries.
Danny
Edited by TheInvisibleDanLink to comment
Share on other sites
doojable
I'm new here but the subject of this thread was something I was thinking about jus tthe other day. I started in TWI while I was in College in NYC - 1978. I was studying to be an illustrator. A 1 2/2 yrs later I was in the 10th corps. I left at the end of my third year and I have never been back to finish that degree.
I had to give up art for that year and because I had to give my very expensive art supplies to someone to hold - who kept them - it was quite a long time before I returned to art. Now I teach drawing and Paint - I am in a local gallery.
I'v had a family and I make sure that the girls get to ballet and piano.
I'm a bit different in that although I regret the time wasted and the mistakes I made, I just don't focus on it all that much. - Why take even more time away from what I love? (family and hobbies) I am not going to give TWI anymore time than it has already taken. Yes I am here on this site - but I am still looking to get some things back - some great friends that I lost track of. I made tha mistake of laying low when I decided to leave TWI in 1988/89 so as not to put any of my firends in the awkward position of having to fellowship with an unbeliever.
Sorry about all the rambling. I'll get the hang of this soon enough.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
dmiller
Doojable -- welcome to Greasespot. :)
I don't dwell on the past either, and the time I spend here is devoted to me and the others here, not twi. Twi is a closed chapter in my life, but I find it comforting to talk and reminisce (sp?) with others who have gone through the same *junk* that I did.
And in doing so, I have found a big *family* of folks to relate to about all sorts of things. Some think the same as I, and some think different. Even the disagreements I have here are more enlightening than the *agreements* I had with the twig, branch, or limb way back when.
Good luck on finding the folks you are looking for.
And I hope you don't consider your time here *wasted*, or giving time to twi.
I don't, and I think most here think similarly. We are regaining what was stolen from us, one post at a time. Although twi is the *common denominator*, each and every one of us is the main subject, and not twi.
Thankfully, most here see that, and do their best to help others pull themselves up through conversation, discussion, etc. I've made many mistakes in the past (twi was just one of them), and I find myself thinking (these days) about how I might have done better, all the time.
Just because I try to rectify, or justify mistakes from the past, doesn't mean I am paying homage to them by thinking about them.
Hope you stick around. This is a great place, with wonderful folks. :)
David
Edited by dmillerLink to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
Link to comment
Share on other sites
jkboehme
Per Danny:
I do think he was intelligent enough to do so. His education exceed that of Sun Young Moon (?sp), L. Ron Hubbard, Elizabeth Claire Prophet, & most cult leaders.
I could not honestly equate dispensing with one’s true historical self with the same as TWI-styled ‘renewed mind’ thought reform & covert packaged persuasion.
In the typical protestant main-line denominational churches of our era, no pressure in placed on individuals to perform in certain way, nor is there the strong emphasis on leaderships’ unquestioned ‘authority’ with corresponding ‘balls to the wall obedience’ (the latter a favorite phrase of lcm). However, numerous cults, such as TWI, do ‘demand’ this level of performance ‘churchianity.’
I would disagree. In a healthy-minded denominational church, there appears to be no pressure to mentally or physically alienate oneself and family from the ‘world.’ These more so balanced folks appear to realize that they are in the world, but not of it.
I strongly disagree.
Thought reform, covert packaged persuasion, coordinated programs of psycho-social coercive persuasion, etc. are NOT taught in the Bible.
Certain religious bodies of course operate in this fashion, but they have crossed the line & imperiled their Constitutional First Amendments protections, having transgressed the intrinsic ‘no harm’ rule of jurisprudence in these matters.
What appears to be taught in typical denominational main-line churhes is a manner of non-coerced, gentle, gradual, elevation of disposition, the ethical high road, as it were.
I disagree.
Unethical cults have been practicing some form of thought reform techniques for centuries. As state above, these have been refined since the 1960’s with an emphasis on attacking one’s self & destabilizing one’s general reality orientation.
Also, the Roman Catholic hierarchy, especially in its Jesuit arm, have often times crossed the line from consented elevation of disposition, to coerced thought reform, most notably via the ‘spiritual exercises’ of St. Ignatius of Loyola. More recently, there is some concern with the extreme practices of Opus Dei. Why would people injured by the Jesuits and Opus Dei not resort to legal remedies? The fate of predatory priests yields a reasonable legal template to follow.
There would appear to be an unmistakable charitable chasm between healthy ‘spirituality’ and sick (pathological) cultic religion.
;)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
I agree...good points.
I bet Paul's conversion on the road to Damascus, among many other examples, generated some pretty remarkable neuron changes in Paul's brain.
Golly, I wonder if Jesus was even concerned imperiling Paul's Constitutional First Amendment rights when he assaulted Paul with non-consensual thought reform packaged persuasion?
:D
Link to comment
Share on other sites
jkboehme
QUOTE(TheInvisibleDan @ Nov 30 2005, 01:09 AM)
... The essential elements providing the potential for the mind-control stuff you described is already present in the Bible, as well as throughout other religions. There's seemingly little "new" about the brain-washing techniques you described. Religions -both true and false alike -have been employing these for centuries.
Danny_____________________
Per OM:
I agree...good points.
I bet Paul's conversion on the road to Damascus, among many other examples, generated some pretty remarkable neuron changes in Paul's brain.
Golly, I wonder if Jesus was even concerned imperiling Paul's Constitutional First Amendment rights when he assaulted Paul with non-consensual thought reform packaged persuasion?
_______________
Paul's conversion: This is the very example VPW used at a lunch-time sharing @ Emporia in 1978 when he was bashing the book by Conway & Siegelman, SNAPPING. VPW couldn't very well let a little validated neuroscience get in the way of his cult-dom, now could he? You & your Vader Herr Vierville make such a nice epistemological pair!
Paul's rights as a Roman citizen: Even though much of Roman law is the precursor to English law & subsequently USA law, unfortunately, as far as I know, the Romans had not yet elaborated the equivalents of our First Amendment rights. We will need to keep in mind, however, that perhaps, just perhaps the intercessor, mediator, & defense attorney might have 'mosseyed' up to the Bench for a brief conference that would forever foreshadow that ultimate eventuation whereof you speak? After all, who has known the mind of God that he might instruct Him? Only you, Job, VPW, & LCM?
:D
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Digitalis
Welcome Doojable,
I am glad you sent you girls to piano and ballet. Glad to see you here.
I allowed TWI to hijack my two eldest kiddos years ......... for a long time ...... glad I woke up.
Digi
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
Such as the non-coercive material from say, the RC church, that unless you obey all of their sacraments, you haven't got a chance to enter the Kingdom of God?
Maybe.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
doojable
Sorry those of you who responded - I lost track of this thread. I am actually glad that I found you guys - all in all we were all a great group - fun for the most part anyway. oakspear - which college were you in in NYC when you took the class? We just might know each other - that was a tight group in that there town. (OOps texan slipping in!)
Just to be clear - I remained a believer but not one with TWI. It all got too "line in the sand " for me way too quickly over very petty stuff.
It seemed to me that we were using the very same Word that God had given to bring us together as a tool for division. That was just a bunch of bull.
I have always kinda marched to my own drummer (he's there in my head right now..Heh heh heh)
I don't consider this time wasted - I just hope that I can figure out how to get in touch with more folks - after all that's why i'm here.:)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Digitalis
doojable......... its good to be your own drummer ....
don't worried about being sidetracked .... it happens all the time in here
its great you found us, one more to fellowship with in many ways here at GScafe. Sometimes about TWI, sometimes just about a great day we had.
happy your here
Digi
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheInvisibleDan
'jkboehme' wrote:
I'll grant that he was a gifted gatherer and organizer, to have done so effective job toward compiling and selling PFAL. But a considerable bulk of its content, as has been discussed elsewhere, was borrowed (or plagiarized) from others. Which doesn't require much brainprower.
I've seen Elizabeth Clare Prophet on TV from time to time; I think she actually exceeds Wierwille in the I.Q. department (as may Moon), though she appears just as whacky.
It's always always a matter of debate whether or not the Way's renewed mind teaching reflected the intentions of the writer, but nonetheless - the material is present in the NT, among many other notions similarly expressing the idea of "change" and "conversion" or "becoming" a Christian. Wierwille didn't require a college education to find such things upon which to utilize or capitalize. He needed to look no further than his Bible. And he certainly made use of it.
That may be fine for today's "typical protestant main-line denominational churchs" but is not descriptive of all denominations outside the Protestants; nor is it reflective of the different Christianites throughout history.
When one contemplates the early Christian movements during the opening centuries of Christianity, from a 21st century standpoint we would be compelled to question how "healthy" such actually were in view of the persecutions, the martydoms of untold thousands of lives, the practices of self-sacrifice and ascetism; not to mention the divisions in families that occured when people left behind their old life to join these new Christian "cults". Not to overlook the challenges Christianity offered against the status "norm" of Roman society.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
Great points Danny.
Thank you.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.