THE MAN OF GOD (according to what I recall docvic teach), was the one to whom God spoke, and then they imparted God's wisdom to the masses. So is it relevant for today?? Nope.
Seems to me (these days) to merely be a ploy to gain power, money, etc., that would otherwise elude
the mogfot wanna-be. :D
Sure -- I agree it was relevant for OT times, but after the day of Pentecost??? Huh-uh.
The LDS church believes that President HINCKLEY is the Prophet seer and revelator for the church in our day and time (please don't side rail this to an LDS theology discussion.) but we don't worship him and most assuredly President Hinckley would never claim to be more loved of GOD than the rest of humanity or consider us to be less in God's eyes than himself.
Is the concept of "THE Man of God for our time" a biblical one? Regardless of whether Wierwille or Martindale fit the bill, does the bible support the concept?
Sticking with the new testament, which Wierwille claimed was "written to us", I'm just not seeing it.
Oak, this is really a pretty moderate statement from you, and I have to agree given your emphasis of THE. If someone is considered THE (only) one to speak for TWI, or any church, no matter how humble (or not) he appears, I don't see that as Biblical.
I emphasized "THE" since I believe that biblically there is room for multiple generic "men of God" if you accept the definition as "someone who speaks for God". 2 Timothy 3:17 mentions "man of God", so there must be such an animal, just not as it evolved in TWI.
Other than Moses, I think only one other person in the Bible was called "the man of God"; and that was an OT prophet whose name wasn't even given, because his office was more important (to the record) than his name. Even in the OT, there were usually several prophets active simultaneously, so declaring one to be THE man of God would be out of order.
Wierwille prided himself on his "administrations" teachings...but when it came to practice, he was old testament all the way. He passed off his mog status with the cliche "You walk on my feet until you can walk on your own"...Of course, the rank and file of twi never DID get to the point of "walking on their own feet"...In reality, Wierwille taught that God speaks to each of us but his waytree hierarchy negated the opprotunity to to experience that. All revelation had to be cleared through the waytree! Wierwille HAD to know that his waytree structure was diametrically opposed to his teachings...
How can a person "operate all 9 all the time" if every decision has to be cleared and approved by someone else? Of course, the ultimate insult was for Vic to equate himself with Moses...His own ego and his own insecurities gave him an unsatiable hunger to be the MOG! In other words, he never really believed his own teachings.
The amazing thing is that it took so long for many of us to recognize this.
Seems to be more of an administration by committee, or consensus, than an heirarchal rule by one man at the top of a "Way Tree" or a pyramid.
So, where does the MOG idea come from? From all indications, the Old Testament.
Happy Day after Thanksgiving! Let the 12 Days of Leftovers commence!
Oaks, I agree, that appears the way Acts and the first generation of the followers of Jesus worked it out as they told others and spread the message. Nearly everything I studied in the Way dealing with TMOGFODAT concept built off the Old Testament. When viewed historically the Way teaching drew the conclusion that "there was always one man of God" for God's people who was the primary point of contact for God to the nation of Jerusalem. But that's not really a clear picture, when the whole O.T. is read, and the various prophets are considered, like Naaman and his interaction with David. David was "king" but God obviously wasn't only dealing directly with him.
The idea that the "apostle" is the spiritual head of the 5 gift ministries and the whole church is questionable, IMO. The gift ministries are fluid, by design. Whatever the need is at the time, place and people is the "greatest". They're only important if they're doing some work and actually helping someone It's like - it doesn't help if you've got 100 union electricians standing by and what you need is to get your lawn mowed but all you get is shrugs and turndowns because the electicians don't touch gas mowers, that's another union. I think all of this "The man of God" stuff produces atrophy and laziness.
References about "the" man of God in sections like Timothy don't refer to either Timothy or Paul as The Top Leaders, the instructions to Timothy would have applied to anyone who wished to have an active role in pastoring the church and spreading the gospel.
Paul's role was certainly unique, but he started initially being sent by the church in Jerusalem to revisit churches and later continued to travel, teach and minister. He recognized the chuch in Jerusalem and deferred to their elders, ultimately to his detriment I believe, but in his day I don't think there's evidence in Acts to support the idea that either Paul, Peter or Jame were recognized as The Man of God of their day and time. Certainly they stepped up and people recognized and responded to them but there's ample evidence in how Acts rolls out to see there was plenty of diversity and discussion going on.
In retrospect we see Pauls' contribution as the person who developed and presented the who/what/where and when of post-Pentecost Christianity. That came slowly over many years following his experience seeing Jesus Christ himself.
Your description "first among equals" also seems to be the way they worked - Peter takes a prominent step forward addressing the group in Acts 2, on Pentecost. There's James, John, later Paul. We read about several men and women, and figuring we don't read much about the other of the "12" and start hearing about others like Agabus suddenly, it seems the dynamics were natural. There must have been a lot of the followers of Jesus that knew Him firsthand who were active and we don't hear about them, as well as those who come in after Acts 2. We read about what Luke wrote in an effort to pull together the main threads of activity but not all the people by any means.
Given the dynamics of any group of people, their times and culture, I think Acts isn't intended to provide a "template" of how structure and organization should ALWAYS work, rather a view of how it DID WORK, in that time. There were many unique factors involved that we now don't deal with, certainly not in Western culture and we have our own that are unique to us. It's dicey to memorialize everything they did and make that the only way it can or should be done.
Wierwille prided himself on his "administrations" teachings...but when it came to practice, he was old testament all the way. He passed off his mog status with the cliche "You walk on my feet until you can walk on your own"...Of course, the rank and file of twi never DID get to the point of "walking on their own feet"...In reality, Wierwille taught that God speaks to each of us but his waytree hierarchy negated the opprotunity to to experience that. All revelation had to be cleared through the waytree! Wierwille HAD to know that his waytree structure was diametrically opposed to his teachings...
How can a person "operate all 9 all the time" if every decision has to be cleared and approved by someone else? Of course, the ultimate insult was for Vic to equate himself with Moses...His own ego and his own insecurities gave him an unsatiable hunger to be the MOG! In other words, he never really believed his own teachings.
The amazing thing is that it took so long for many of us to recognize this.
Whoa! That is a great summation Groucho! I really believe VPW wanted to be worshipped and adored. He wanted to be top dog: servants, money, trips, respect, and don't forget...women! It kills me how much was given to him and other leadership because we trained to do so. Lay our wealth at the apostles' feet. Was that taken out of concept or what? Sorry
Anyway, the MOG idea isn't for today. Obviously the previous learning in the OT showed it didn't. Those who want power and money declare themselves that way. I'm sure it started that way in the RC church. It will start that way in any other church which adopts that same ideology--IMHO.
Seems to me that vpw's sources for MOGFOT were both OT (especially Moses & Joshua) and hermetic, as in the Hierophant of the Mysteries, the hierophant being essentially a 'high priest' of sorts. Given vpw's proclivity for placing a thin veneer of biblical info over a deep core of hermetic teachings, I would lean towards the hierophant being the prototype for the ineffable Corn Wizard, V.P. Wierwille
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dmiller
THE MAN OF GOD (according to what I recall docvic teach), was the one to whom God spoke, and then they imparted God's wisdom to the masses. So is it relevant for today?? Nope.
Seems to me (these days) to merely be a ploy to gain power, money, etc., that would otherwise elude
the mogfot wanna-be. :D
Sure -- I agree it was relevant for OT times, but after the day of Pentecost??? Huh-uh.
Elders, teachers, deacons, etc. --- yes.
Mogfot --- no
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WordWolf
It worked in specific times for specific reasons.
It worked with Moses during the Exodus because
this was a specific crisis requiring hands-on attention.
(Nations wanted to wipe them out.)
It worked in the time of the Judges because each
judge was MADE a judge to deal with the specific
failures, shortcomings and problems Israel had
in each case.
In the time of Samuel,
the people DEMANDED a man to rule over them
"like all the nations."
The results looked good for a little while,
but were otherwise disastrous.
And God had Samuel warn the people AHEAD
of time what the consequences would be.
He'd want people to serve him and cook for
him, he'd take their women for his
pleasure-hey, this sounds familiar..
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templelady
We are all Sons and daughters of GOD
The LDS church believes that President HINCKLEY is the Prophet seer and revelator for the church in our day and time (please don't side rail this to an LDS theology discussion.) but we don't worship him and most assuredly President Hinckley would never claim to be more loved of GOD than the rest of humanity or consider us to be less in God's eyes than himself.
The Whole MOGFOT idea was rife with Idolatry
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Lifted Up
Oak, this is really a pretty moderate statement from you, and I have to agree given your emphasis of THE. If someone is considered THE (only) one to speak for TWI, or any church, no matter how humble (or not) he appears, I don't see that as Biblical.
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Oakspear
I emphasized "THE" since I believe that biblically there is room for multiple generic "men of God" if you accept the definition as "someone who speaks for God". 2 Timothy 3:17 mentions "man of God", so there must be such an animal, just not as it evolved in TWI.
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GeorgeStGeorge
Other than Moses, I think only one other person in the Bible was called "the man of God"; and that was an OT prophet whose name wasn't even given, because his office was more important (to the record) than his name. Even in the OT, there were usually several prophets active simultaneously, so declaring one to be THE man of God would be out of order.
George
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
the man of god thing imo is nothing less than idolatry
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GrouchoMarxJr
Wierwille prided himself on his "administrations" teachings...but when it came to practice, he was old testament all the way. He passed off his mog status with the cliche "You walk on my feet until you can walk on your own"...Of course, the rank and file of twi never DID get to the point of "walking on their own feet"...In reality, Wierwille taught that God speaks to each of us but his waytree hierarchy negated the opprotunity to to experience that. All revelation had to be cleared through the waytree! Wierwille HAD to know that his waytree structure was diametrically opposed to his teachings...
How can a person "operate all 9 all the time" if every decision has to be cleared and approved by someone else? Of course, the ultimate insult was for Vic to equate himself with Moses...His own ego and his own insecurities gave him an unsatiable hunger to be the MOG! In other words, he never really believed his own teachings.
The amazing thing is that it took so long for many of us to recognize this.
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socks
Happy Day after Thanksgiving! Let the 12 Days of Leftovers commence!
Oaks, I agree, that appears the way Acts and the first generation of the followers of Jesus worked it out as they told others and spread the message. Nearly everything I studied in the Way dealing with TMOGFODAT concept built off the Old Testament. When viewed historically the Way teaching drew the conclusion that "there was always one man of God" for God's people who was the primary point of contact for God to the nation of Jerusalem. But that's not really a clear picture, when the whole O.T. is read, and the various prophets are considered, like Naaman and his interaction with David. David was "king" but God obviously wasn't only dealing directly with him.
The idea that the "apostle" is the spiritual head of the 5 gift ministries and the whole church is questionable, IMO. The gift ministries are fluid, by design. Whatever the need is at the time, place and people is the "greatest". They're only important if they're doing some work and actually helping someone It's like - it doesn't help if you've got 100 union electricians standing by and what you need is to get your lawn mowed but all you get is shrugs and turndowns because the electicians don't touch gas mowers, that's another union. I think all of this "The man of God" stuff produces atrophy and laziness.
References about "the" man of God in sections like Timothy don't refer to either Timothy or Paul as The Top Leaders, the instructions to Timothy would have applied to anyone who wished to have an active role in pastoring the church and spreading the gospel.
Paul's role was certainly unique, but he started initially being sent by the church in Jerusalem to revisit churches and later continued to travel, teach and minister. He recognized the chuch in Jerusalem and deferred to their elders, ultimately to his detriment I believe, but in his day I don't think there's evidence in Acts to support the idea that either Paul, Peter or Jame were recognized as The Man of God of their day and time. Certainly they stepped up and people recognized and responded to them but there's ample evidence in how Acts rolls out to see there was plenty of diversity and discussion going on.
In retrospect we see Pauls' contribution as the person who developed and presented the who/what/where and when of post-Pentecost Christianity. That came slowly over many years following his experience seeing Jesus Christ himself.
Your description "first among equals" also seems to be the way they worked - Peter takes a prominent step forward addressing the group in Acts 2, on Pentecost. There's James, John, later Paul. We read about several men and women, and figuring we don't read much about the other of the "12" and start hearing about others like Agabus suddenly, it seems the dynamics were natural. There must have been a lot of the followers of Jesus that knew Him firsthand who were active and we don't hear about them, as well as those who come in after Acts 2. We read about what Luke wrote in an effort to pull together the main threads of activity but not all the people by any means.
Given the dynamics of any group of people, their times and culture, I think Acts isn't intended to provide a "template" of how structure and organization should ALWAYS work, rather a view of how it DID WORK, in that time. There were many unique factors involved that we now don't deal with, certainly not in Western culture and we have our own that are unique to us. It's dicey to memorialize everything they did and make that the only way it can or should be done.
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Nottawayfer
Whoa! That is a great summation Groucho! I really believe VPW wanted to be worshipped and adored. He wanted to be top dog: servants, money, trips, respect, and don't forget...women! It kills me how much was given to him and other leadership because we trained to do so. Lay our wealth at the apostles' feet. Was that taken out of concept or what? Sorry
Anyway, the MOG idea isn't for today. Obviously the previous learning in the OT showed it didn't. Those who want power and money declare themselves that way. I'm sure it started that way in the RC church. It will start that way in any other church which adopts that same ideology--IMHO.
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jkboehme
Seems to me that vpw's sources for MOGFOT were both OT (especially Moses & Joshua) and hermetic, as in the Hierophant of the Mysteries, the hierophant being essentially a 'high priest' of sorts. Given vpw's proclivity for placing a thin veneer of biblical info over a deep core of hermetic teachings, I would lean towards the hierophant being the prototype for the ineffable Corn Wizard, V.P. Wierwille
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bliss
I know first hand that almost everyone still "IN" is WAITING for another MOG to rise up!
Quote: " well, things are kinda boring, we just don't have a prophet right now"
"hey, LCM's yelling never offended me much, at least he got people to wake up about some stuff"
Yes, folks, this is the mindset of the current Wayfers, still waiting ................................
Scary
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penguin
In reply to Bliss:
AMEN! I can't explain it or state it any better!
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excathedra
jkboehme your last picture seems accurate you know "right on" that little winkie
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dmiller
twi --- the next generation (same as the last ones!!)
They're coming to take you away, ha ha, ho ho, he he..............
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