When I re-read your first post about the attempted murder plot by the trustees, it sure looks like you believe it. And you didn't say then, that you didn't believe it. In fact, you made some statements to the contrary.
And judging from responses by Groucho, Jkboehme, Belle, Wayfer Not, and Markomalley, it was believable enough for them.
Makes one wonder why folks would even repeat silly rumors folks don't even believe themselves? :(
Never mind HCW.
You heard it and don't believe it.
I don't either.
Oldies,
Do you ever ask why didn't the BOT negate the accusation? If someone made a horrible alligation about me like that and I knew it wasn't true, I'd be fighting tooth and nail to save my reputation. That is a HUGE accusation.
And why would HCW lie about what he heard? There's no profit to him lying. Do you know him? Does he have a reputation for lying? I don't think so. There are several here who knew him before GSC.
Can I ask you ......... What difference in this day and time does it make who was right and who was wrong? CG is no longer in charge of any part of TWI or Gartmor. Are you looking for him because you want to fellowship with him? Why is it you must find CG? Why is it you need to know who was right and who was wrong? Do you need to find him right in what he did for some particular reason? Or wrong for a reason?
God´s Word teached me by TWI made me a better person, I still believe up to this day so many things, for example: In one God, in Jesus Christ return, in the operation of the manifestations of the gift. In live by grace. In live with out condemnation. In be more than victorious, in to prevail. To move the Word, to raise a family in the Word. That I am God´s best. That I am what The Word of God said that I am.
I been to headquarters and to other Way meetings in the States, but I am realy far away, the things that LCM did are not well known in my country, the body of believers does not know the truth up to this day. The main problem is that they do not speak english, and they do not have Internet access.
Also Mexico is a very RC country a lot of idolatry, have you heard about la "Virgen de Guadalupe"?
So for me the best form to get in to the Word is by the TWI. The other major groups that can be found in Mexico are the Mormons, "and I like a lot to drink Coca Cola Light". (diet) And the Jehova W. very few Evangelics, and Baptists. The teach very few Word and a lot of traditions.
So I am trying to understand what had happened with TWI. What realy is the problem and if this problem is not as big. But what I found is that it is a big problem.
The major ex- Way group that exist in Mexico is the one that follow CG. And has a Way Corp leadership. The small one is the one that follow TWI. :)
If you believe LCM was deceived by CG, think about this:
1. LCM is a huge drama Queen
2. His ego is HUGE
3. He twisted all kinds of words, principls, and Bibles verses to get people to believe his crap
4. He said he was on his way to resign, and then changed his mind after a woman said "God bless you, Rev. Martindale".
5. His ego wouldn't let him fail
6. LCM said CG would never tell him he did anyting right. The LCM got NASTY (demanding support). That would be the only way he would separate the "wheat" from the "chaff" and be able to still rule the kingdom.
He decided to hold on for dear life his title as President. He only let it go 5years ago because the ministry was in trouble of getting sued for a lot of money because of his stupid acts. Otherwise he would still be Prez. Evil has ran TWI for years.
That even includes CG IMHO. He was just as bad as LCM. He just used VPs name to rock the boat. He was trying to wedge his way in to LCM's place. It was all a circus, and God never had any part of it.
In other words, Craig wasn't spiritually sharp enough to detect Geer's lies, therefore he shouldn't have been in charge?
Perhaps.
The topic of whether Craig was the best man for the job is certainly open to debate.
With all that has happened, it certainly gives folks food for thought.
Good of you to say this. I seem to recall (and perhaps somebody with more experience can correct me) that there was this huge religious ceremony at the innauguration of Martindale. The passing of the pelt and the blessing of salt, or some such thing (I really don't remember, sorry). And the impression I was given was that Wierwille indicated that he received revelation that Martindale was God's choice to carry on as president of TWI.
Once again, maybe somebody whose memory is better than mine may be able to help me out here.
My point is this, again, for the third time (sorry if the repetitiveness gets to you).
If Wierwille did receive accurate revelation as to whom he should appoint, then it was ordained of God that TWI should collapse (the ultimate result of his appointment of the, then current, BOD and their reaction/over-reaction to the document. Think: the BOD could have simply denounced it, but they didn't!!!).
If Wierwille did not receive revelation, then he was a fraud. In which case, why in the world should anything he said be trusted?
If Wierwille received inaccurate revelation, then he received it from the Devil or one of his minions. In which case, anything he said would need to be re-examined.
I distinctly remember being taught in TWI that if a prophet isn't right-on 100% of the time (when he claims to be speaking by revelation), then he is either a fraud or is getting his hevvy revvy from the wrong side. Well, doesn't that standard apply to everybody?
A big part of the issue is the "alternate reality" thing.
TWI uses a concept where words become "real" and replace the actual reality.
Example:
My statement, as written was:
"... My intent was not to say whether I believed it or not."
That was reality, what I REALLY said.
Oldiesman created an alternate reality with his words:
"You mention this vicious rumor, and now you say you don't know whether you believe it or not?
.........................................
I never said I don't know if I believed it or not, OLDIESMAN said I did.
Un-real. As in NOT reality.
Oldie is trying to create an ALTERNATE reality where:
1. My eyewitness account of allegations were "publically" verified by the parties of the first part. is reduced to a "rumor."
2. I am nuts. Well not ME, personally, only my view of HIS beloved.
3. I am an idiot, one who is too stupid to know that I allowed myself "to be subject to this" by repeating this "rumor."
Now, I'M gonna jump spiritual on you.
I am not nuts, I was not decieved into thinking I heard something that wasn't said. There is a BIG difference between repeating a rumor and testifying to facts. Oldiesman obviously doesn't know said difference.
I gave my testimony about what I heard.
Oldie doesn't like what I heard, HE is trying his level best to discredit ME personally so that none of you believe what he wishes were not true.
Everything Oldie has said of me and this in rebuttal of MY eyewitness testimony is ACTUALLY true of himself.
He knows that it is true and refuses to believe the truth about himself. In reality it is HE who is:
1. Decieved
2. Confused
3. Subjecting himself to "all of this"
4. Lying (primarily to himself)
Thing is, he know all ot this, and more, but refuses to acknowledge the truth about himself. He chooses to live in the alternate reality and is using it in attempt to have us join him there. He will never stop discrediting me until I agree with him.
In fact this behavior is the personification of cult thinking, the often mentioned "group mind."
All this just because he's mad that I "spit" on his trustees.
BTW.
Oldie.
You DO realize that I'm not really talking to you. Right?
I mean, even when I address you, I'm not really talking to you.
Yes, I agree, as well as excathedra. That’s why I’ve got two threads ongoing regarding extant reality vs. illusory wayworld : TWI-induced SNAPPING + Wierwille, Jonestown, & Cults.
and i do appreciate it, very much
for so long, i tried to make sense (and maybe still do) of things that are without sense
I never had a personal awareness of CG except as it related to the POP and even that information was related to me by people who were still in . (I had long since ceased attending Way functions by that time). I was still friends with people who still had a major investment in TWI lifestyle so I got to vicariously experience the confusion and resulting schism which took place. Since I wasn't a stakeholder in that process and was detached, it looked to me like a classic coup situation though it was never clear to me (or my friends who were still in) if it was successful. However, it definitely polarized the so called "ministry" and I was told many things by people on both sides of the arguement all of which seemed to be purely emotionally based. That is , if someone liked their current situation at that time they resisted the characterizations that CG detailed in POP. If someone didn't like their current situation within TWI , they sided with CG but not out of any sense of loyalty to CG but just to reject the current administration and LCM.
The whole thing appeared to me as being messy, unorganized, and the result of two ego driven men arguing over the vestiges of an organization that was built under VPW. Both saw the tremendous value (as in $$$) in being the head of that setup and neither wanted share it so its of little suprise that something like that happened. BUT it was a huge surprise to me that more people at that time didn't start seeing TWI for the sham that it was. For me that was a maasive disappointment and after that I had a very difficult time
respecting anyone who still wanted to remain in TWI or the various offshoots. I realize that this might alienate people who did remain but I must put this out there. because to me this bickering and power struggling made it extremely clear that TWI was all about power and money.
So to me it is somewhat irrelevant to consider who of the two was better. They were both underlings seeking to claim the empty thone as their own. I did know of LCM and I left TWI as a result of this appointment as president. I couldn't handle it. He was an idiot before he was president and it only got worse afterwards. I'm not sure who out there actually believes that he was actually okay before he became president but he was very lucky to get the gig. He was uncultured and insecure and sought to compensate by cultivating an in-your-face approach. And the fact that CG had difficulty getting LCM booted tells me that CG was probably about as inept as was LCM. Maybe he thought it would be childs play to get TWI trustees to bow to his "truth" but it didn't work out like that at all. I guess arrogance does blind people and it definitely blinded both of those guys.
themex, I don't know the group in Mexico at all that are using Geer's class, or the USA for that matter. I've been told by a few people and there's posts on GS to this effect, that he lives up in Maine somewhere and has a class he produced that is very similar to PFAL. People can get it by paying a yearly franchise fee, to use it. I was told several years ago it was about 4,000 bucks. If you pay the fee, you can get his Foundational class and run it for a year as many times as you want and I think - charge whatever you want for it if you do charge anything. I've never seen it or know anything about if first hand, I assume there's some kind of handshake arrangement or perhaps a contract to that effect. Maybe someone knows the specifics, but basically it's a user fee, and it sounded to me like a kind of franchise arrangement. You may already know that much, or more . (and for my part I think all these people who repackage PFAL and sell it for money are blood-sucking tics)
You already know this - for a few years Chris Geer was giving copies of PFAL to people in the USA, maybe other countries too, since the Way in Europe had rights to it and other Way books and materials, so they weren't "illegal" copies, they were legal. There's a bunch of those copies floating around I've been told. Haven't seen any of them first hand but at the time I was told that they were being run and people were taking and/or retaking it from those copies.
I think some people who wanted to keep going the way they had been but didn't want to stay associated with the Way and Craig Martindale saw it as a reasonable way to reorganize and use these other classes and books, etc as their central doctrine and teaching media. There's a lot of different "flavors" of Ex-Way groups in the U.S. as it sounds like there are in Mexico.
My own personal decision for myself and my family was to get away from these guys and their various ministries and literally disconnect from the whole organization, formally and informally. That included Geer, The Way International, and any and all major and minor "offshoots" and splinter groups as they're called. Some of the people I would still consider friends, although they might not feel the same way about me, but I hold nothing personal against them. They did what they felt was good for them, that's their business. So did I, and it's my life to live as I see fit. Life goes on and if we cross paths again I hope it's under friendly circumstances.
I don't trust Geer or the Way International and that's directed what I've done. Many people took what he wrote in Passing of the Patriarch as the truth, word for word. If you read it, there's no substance to it, little specific information. It's basically what Geer says VPW talked to him about and told him prior to his own death while visiting Geer. It amounts to a very dismal view of VPW in the last few years of his life, in which he is sick, weak and critical of nearly everyone he's worked with over the years and has little to say as to how to address any of those criticisms. If you believe Geer, VPW told him to watch the They Way of U.S. for a year and if things didn't get "better" then to come forward and pass on VPW's concerns, posthumously.
The problem is that of all that I heard and read that came out of Geer there was never anything specific as to what could be done to make things right. If all it amounted to was pray, believe and get your heart right, fine. But he knew - he had to know what his actions were going to cause in the U.S. And if he didn't he's so dense as to be irresponsible.
But as others have said, I believe The Way was an accident just waiting to happen. Geer became a flashpoint for awhile, and a new leader for some. But what happened in 86-89 was just a very unfortunate and ugly version of what would have happened anyway. I believe inevitably age, maturity and growth on the part of the people would have brought changes over time. The Way was a system that wasn't built to change, so it's rigid structure would have broken from the stress. That's my take and I believe it because that was already happening in our family and others that I knew.
The specific comments Geer did make were rediculous. Anyone who was interested in doing good and actually making things better that they thought were wrong would never have handled it the way Geer did. So I don't trust him. He was like a bull in a china shop, with no goal or mission other than the stated one of passing on VPW's remarks and concerns. Whatever conversations he had one on one with the Trustees I can only imagine. Based on what I saw I doubt they were coherent enough to produce any real clear communication.
You might wonder why, if I was involved at the time and felt this way, why I didn't mount some grand effort to save the Way. Reasons - 1 - information was so sporadic and incomplete, it took awhile to find out what had really happened, let alone was happening. For example - LCM was never supposed to take his initial conversations with Geer and make them public. He did and blew the whole Way International staff out of the water one night with no warning. I had a couple people call ME, in another state, the next week to see if I knew anything about what Geer was doing....??? Unbelievable. So it took most of 86 to for me try and assess what was possible, if anything. I was at 3 meetings at Way Headquarters and by the 3rd, I felt it was time to leave as nothing was getting done and Geer was so abusive as to be hateful. It was time for change.
2 - We had our fellowhip of about 10 people and our friends and family. I felt most responsible to those peopple, that knew me. That's the group I took care of, and I did my best. They've all come out very well, and even a couple have been back with the Way, from what I've been told. I hold no animosity towards them for that. They're good people, they have to make their own decisions.
It was, exallente'. It was. I laughed, I cried, I chuckled. I wish you'd seen it in the original, but alas, even as I tapped it out I myself dozed off for portions of it. Still it must have been awesome based on the drool trail that I found on my keyboard after I came to.
I'm sure many have been helped by it and will want to know where to send Love Offerings, so it would be selfish at this point to not allow for the wellspring of giving that's bound to occur, so for those who were helped and you know who you are, please get the relief you deserve from your burden of debt and send money now to "itonlyhurtzwhenidontgivetosocks@dollarsandcentz.com"
Thank you, you'll be glad you did, and you'll love the signed foto (by me, yes me) of the cover of my next book to be titled "Relief and How to Get It", that comes to each and every person who does The Right Thing, printed in vintage black and white on clean white paper and sent at no additional cost or expense to anyone. Be one of the first 100 givers and this one time, once in a lifetime offer will be included. Just send along 15.95 American for the nominal shipping and handling charges. Please be aware that, of course, these minimal handling fees are not True Giving, so don't be fooled and let that effect the amount of your normal Love Response. We want to keep it...honest here. Thank you.
Socks, in a blinding flash of inspiration, wrote..
Thank you, you'll be glad you did, and you'll love the signed foto (by me, yes me) of the cover of my next book to be titled "Relief and How to Get It", that comes to each and every person who does The Right Thing, printed in vintage black and white on clean white paper and sent at no additional cost or expense to anyone. Be one of the first 100 givers and this one time, once in a lifetime offer will be included. Just send along 15.95 American for the nominal shipping and handling charges. Please be aware that, of course, these minimal handling fees are not True Giving, so don't be fooled and let that effect the amount of your normal Love Response. We want to keep it...honest here. Thank you.
Any chance I can get an "America Awakes Again, This Time not in Ohio" CD with that?
so for those who were helped and you know who you are, please get the relief you deserve from your burden of debt and send money now to "itonlyhurtzwhenidontgivetosocks@dollarsandcentz.com"
Thank you, you'll be glad you did, and you'll love the signed foto (by me, yes me) of the cover of my next book to be titled "Relief and How to Get It", that comes to each and every person who does The Right Thing.
Update: The new issue of Glimpses of Truth arrived this week no family news update in it but enclosed was Chris & Barbara's Holiday Card a picture of them by the lake. (I'd guess Lake Sabago) by their house.
HCW ..... sorry that "this day and time" gets to you, but its a phrase that has been in many more cycles than TWI. I have heard the President of the U.S. use it in a speech. Not everything in my mind revolves around TWI anylonger and I don't believe because I wrote it concerning a past situation that I am programmed by TWI at this point in my life. It truly is just a sentence to me. Now had I used "the Present Truth" I probably would have caused myself to vomit.
The Mex ...... I can understand your concern and your heart. Its just so unhealthy for some to get wrapped up in things I am sending you a personal message through Grease Spots Forum with my email addy. I know a couple in Europe who I keep contact with regularly who were under CGs leadership at one time who might be willing to help you understand if understanding is your desire.
One of the things that always got me during this time, and you mentioned it, was that there were never any specifics.
The BOT had to repent, 80% of the corps were possessed, we had to "change." Everyone had to change their wrong ways.
Well, WHAT WAS BEING DONE WRONG????? CHANGE WHAT????? Specifics please.
Just being told to "change," "get right with God," without ever being told specifics is just stupid.
CG was a divider and a manipulator. He swoops out of Gartmore to H.Q. Tells everyone they're messed up, but doesn't say in what way, just everyone has to get back to the Word, and leaves in a huff. He came a couple of times, delivered a message, then does a dissappearing act - runs back to Gartmore. I got tired of it. Literally, he'd come to H.Q. during corps week, read POP, then two minutes later, he's left the building, gone. He was a poser and a game player - head games. People fell for it.
Then at the clergy meeting he calls, he makes sure everyone sees his .45 he places in the podium while he's getting ready to speak. A paranoid nutcase. I've often wondered, why didn't the clergy stand up and tell him to stuff it, and go disappear. I've never seen anyone so intimidate the clergy as he did. What were they afraid of?
It was posturing, threats, and intimidation on CG's part under the guise of "spirituality." I was VP's friend, I know inner secrets, you don't, do as I say, if you don't, I'll humiliate you publically. Why wasn't there a clergy uprising?
I agree with you most whole heartedly that the call for change was totally lacking in specifics and contributed to a very confusing situation.
The SPECIFIC change that Dr had called for, starting slow in the mid 70's, and then a little more intensely in the 1979 AC, and continuing on to a peak in his Last/Lost Teaching was that we had to COME BACK to the collaterals and master them, even if we were top leaders and had mastered the film class and had passed relatively simple AC tests on the collaterals.
This SPECIFIC change, in it's final form, was delivered in Chris Geer's presence, and Geer even documents the setup Dr personally gave him as they approached the meeting hall, that it would most probably be Dr's dying last words to us all. Geer, in his POP, mentions much about that last teaching's setup but NOTHING of it's contents, which he totally blew off.
That it was extremely strong spiritual forces that were obscuring Chris Geer's hearing of this SPECIFIC change Dr had advised in that teaching is obvious when we observe that EVERY SINGLE OTHER top leader turned a deaf ear to Dr's last teaching, and thus it was lost to 99% of the non-Corps population.
Even high ranking leaders who were totally unaware of Dr's last teaching (PM me for a few names that may surprise you), leaders who had never been even the slightest bit aware of it, when told about it in very recent years have repeated the errors of previous leaders in-the-know and have TOTALLY blown it off themselves. This says that those extremely strong spiritual forces that obscured Dr's SPECIFIC call for change back in 1985 are still at work today. Many readers of this post will do the same and find some way to totally ignore what I'm saying and remain in a state of total disobedience to God.
If we ever want to do what EVERY SINGLE leader of the fallen TWI-1 failed to do it would be to heed the advice Dr gave us to get away from all TVTs (Twi Verbal Traditions) and come back to the written form of PFAL and master it. THIS is the specific instruction to change that we ALL missed.
I just wrote: "Many readers of this post will do the same and find some way to totally ignore what I'm saying and remain in a state of total disobedience to God."
I've told you before that this is an OLG thing, that we Older Leader Grads, are the ones who blew it here and entered into total disobedience to God by ignoring this specific change order.
You are not to be blamed for our grievous error. You arrived too late to see the GREAT good that we saw, and I can't blame you for ignoring Dr's specific advice. I doubt if God blames you, either. But we OLGs have got a lot of explaining to do at the bema.
If you only knew how much I identify with and love 45 rpm records, broken or not, you'd try a different strategery. I actually enjoy your latest response mode.
I even wrote a poem that includes a line about those lovable antiquities, the 45 record, and I think I posted it here long ago, but it may have been in a thread that was pruned in the last days of the old GSC software.
I just hope you still have your settings fixed on the "ignore Mike" mode so that you continue with this perfectly pleasant punctuation of my posts.
BTW, there is a good side to the repetition of something over and over.
It's called consistency.
I intend to not modify my repeated alerting to what we all have forgotten or that had slipped passed us unawares many years ago when we were still being taught by the man God selected to bring His Word back to being available to all who want it.
ROFLMAO!!! Good one Raf! ... Should've made that an AO-Hell CD. :D
Smikeol,
'strategery'?? :blink:
Face it dude. You're getting nowhere here, and your pitch just ain't gonna sell, especially the one about how the OLGs are going to have to answer to God for not paying attention to the PFAL collaterals. I mean, there are FAR worse crimes that one can commit, ..... Like ohhh, .....
When something GREAT is given to us, and we let it slip through our fingers, it's a shame. When you consider the GREAT incompetency at all levels of leadership that resulted from this slippage, it becomes much more than a shame.
By far, most of the abuses bemoaned here at GSC stem directly from this great incompetency all us OLGs are guilty of.
There are many, many different symptoms that resulted out of our failure to carry out the specific orders we were given, but it all traces back to one common trait we share, how we TOTALLY refused to get the message in our heads as accurate as it was put into print.
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oldiesman
In other words, Craig wasn't spiritually sharp enough to detect Geer's lies, therefore he shouldn't have been in charge?
Perhaps.
The topic of whether Craig was the best man for the job is certainly open to debate.
With all that has happened, it certainly gives folks food for thought.
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Nottawayfer
Oldies,
Do you ever ask why didn't the BOT negate the accusation? If someone made a horrible alligation about me like that and I knew it wasn't true, I'd be fighting tooth and nail to save my reputation. That is a HUGE accusation.
And why would HCW lie about what he heard? There's no profit to him lying. Do you know him? Does he have a reputation for lying? I don't think so. There are several here who knew him before GSC.
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themex
Digitalis:
Thank you for your concern.
God´s Word teached me by TWI made me a better person, I still believe up to this day so many things, for example: In one God, in Jesus Christ return, in the operation of the manifestations of the gift. In live by grace. In live with out condemnation. In be more than victorious, in to prevail. To move the Word, to raise a family in the Word. That I am God´s best. That I am what The Word of God said that I am.
I been to headquarters and to other Way meetings in the States, but I am realy far away, the things that LCM did are not well known in my country, the body of believers does not know the truth up to this day. The main problem is that they do not speak english, and they do not have Internet access.
Also Mexico is a very RC country a lot of idolatry, have you heard about la "Virgen de Guadalupe"?
So for me the best form to get in to the Word is by the TWI. The other major groups that can be found in Mexico are the Mormons, "and I like a lot to drink Coca Cola Light". (diet) And the Jehova W. very few Evangelics, and Baptists. The teach very few Word and a lot of traditions.
So I am trying to understand what had happened with TWI. What realy is the problem and if this problem is not as big. But what I found is that it is a big problem.
The major ex- Way group that exist in Mexico is the one that follow CG. And has a Way Corp leadership. The small one is the one that follow TWI. :)
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Nottawayfer
If you believe LCM was deceived by CG, think about this:
1. LCM is a huge drama Queen
2. His ego is HUGE
3. He twisted all kinds of words, principls, and Bibles verses to get people to believe his crap
4. He said he was on his way to resign, and then changed his mind after a woman said "God bless you, Rev. Martindale".
5. His ego wouldn't let him fail
6. LCM said CG would never tell him he did anyting right. The LCM got NASTY (demanding support). That would be the only way he would separate the "wheat" from the "chaff" and be able to still rule the kingdom.
He decided to hold on for dear life his title as President. He only let it go 5years ago because the ministry was in trouble of getting sued for a lot of money because of his stupid acts. Otherwise he would still be Prez. Evil has ran TWI for years.
That even includes CG IMHO. He was just as bad as LCM. He just used VPs name to rock the boat. He was trying to wedge his way in to LCM's place. It was all a circus, and God never had any part of it.
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oldiesman
Wayfer Not,
I do not know, or believe, that the BOT ever admitted that they attempted murder on Cabellero, much less actually doing it.
Therefore, they had no accusation to negate.
I have no reason to believe HCW is deliberately lying, but I do believe he can be mistaken.
The whole tale makes little sense.
Did you ever ask yourself why the BOT was never brought up on criminal charges, if this tale is true?
8,000 people supposedly heard the BOT admit that they attempted to murder Ricardo Cabellero, and not one person of the 8,000 calls the sheriff?
In 17 years?
:o
Attempted murder is very bad, and there is no statute of limitations on this crime.
Why don't you call the local sheriff right now if you believe this?
As a matter of fact, it is your duty, if you believe this tale.
Craig and Howard are still alive.
Try to get them arrested.
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markomalley
Good of you to say this. I seem to recall (and perhaps somebody with more experience can correct me) that there was this huge religious ceremony at the innauguration of Martindale. The passing of the pelt and the blessing of salt, or some such thing (I really don't remember, sorry). And the impression I was given was that Wierwille indicated that he received revelation that Martindale was God's choice to carry on as president of TWI.
Once again, maybe somebody whose memory is better than mine may be able to help me out here.
My point is this, again, for the third time (sorry if the repetitiveness gets to you).
I distinctly remember being taught in TWI that if a prophet isn't right-on 100% of the time (when he claims to be speaking by revelation), then he is either a fraud or is getting his hevvy revvy from the wrong side. Well, doesn't that standard apply to everybody?
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HCW
A big part of the issue is the "alternate reality" thing.
TWI uses a concept where words become "real" and replace the actual reality.
Example:
My statement, as written was:
"... My intent was not to say whether I believed it or not."
That was reality, what I REALLY said.
Oldiesman created an alternate reality with his words:
"You mention this vicious rumor, and now you say you don't know whether you believe it or not?
.........................................
I never said I don't know if I believed it or not, OLDIESMAN said I did.
Un-real. As in NOT reality.
Oldie is trying to create an ALTERNATE reality where:
1. My eyewitness account of allegations were "publically" verified by the parties of the first part. is reduced to a "rumor."
2. I am nuts. Well not ME, personally, only my view of HIS beloved.
3. I am an idiot, one who is too stupid to know that I allowed myself "to be subject to this" by repeating this "rumor."
Now, I'M gonna jump spiritual on you.
I am not nuts, I was not decieved into thinking I heard something that wasn't said. There is a BIG difference between repeating a rumor and testifying to facts. Oldiesman obviously doesn't know said difference.
I gave my testimony about what I heard.
Oldie doesn't like what I heard, HE is trying his level best to discredit ME personally so that none of you believe what he wishes were not true.
Everything Oldie has said of me and this in rebuttal of MY eyewitness testimony is ACTUALLY true of himself.
He knows that it is true and refuses to believe the truth about himself. In reality it is HE who is:
1. Decieved
2. Confused
3. Subjecting himself to "all of this"
4. Lying (primarily to himself)
Thing is, he know all ot this, and more, but refuses to acknowledge the truth about himself. He chooses to live in the alternate reality and is using it in attempt to have us join him there. He will never stop discrediting me until I agree with him.
In fact this behavior is the personification of cult thinking, the often mentioned "group mind."
All this just because he's mad that I "spit" on his trustees.
BTW.
Oldie.
You DO realize that I'm not really talking to you. Right?
I mean, even when I address you, I'm not really talking to you.
Its an ears to hear thing. :huh:
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excathedra
for so long, i tried to make sense (and maybe still do) of things that are without sense
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diazbro
I never had a personal awareness of CG except as it related to the POP and even that information was related to me by people who were still in . (I had long since ceased attending Way functions by that time). I was still friends with people who still had a major investment in TWI lifestyle so I got to vicariously experience the confusion and resulting schism which took place. Since I wasn't a stakeholder in that process and was detached, it looked to me like a classic coup situation though it was never clear to me (or my friends who were still in) if it was successful. However, it definitely polarized the so called "ministry" and I was told many things by people on both sides of the arguement all of which seemed to be purely emotionally based. That is , if someone liked their current situation at that time they resisted the characterizations that CG detailed in POP. If someone didn't like their current situation within TWI , they sided with CG but not out of any sense of loyalty to CG but just to reject the current administration and LCM.
The whole thing appeared to me as being messy, unorganized, and the result of two ego driven men arguing over the vestiges of an organization that was built under VPW. Both saw the tremendous value (as in $$$) in being the head of that setup and neither wanted share it so its of little suprise that something like that happened. BUT it was a huge surprise to me that more people at that time didn't start seeing TWI for the sham that it was. For me that was a maasive disappointment and after that I had a very difficult time
respecting anyone who still wanted to remain in TWI or the various offshoots. I realize that this might alienate people who did remain but I must put this out there. because to me this bickering and power struggling made it extremely clear that TWI was all about power and money.
So to me it is somewhat irrelevant to consider who of the two was better. They were both underlings seeking to claim the empty thone as their own. I did know of LCM and I left TWI as a result of this appointment as president. I couldn't handle it. He was an idiot before he was president and it only got worse afterwards. I'm not sure who out there actually believes that he was actually okay before he became president but he was very lucky to get the gig. He was uncultured and insecure and sought to compensate by cultivating an in-your-face approach. And the fact that CG had difficulty getting LCM booted tells me that CG was probably about as inept as was LCM. Maybe he thought it would be childs play to get TWI trustees to bow to his "truth" but it didn't work out like that at all. I guess arrogance does blind people and it definitely blinded both of those guys.
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socks
themex, I don't know the group in Mexico at all that are using Geer's class, or the USA for that matter. I've been told by a few people and there's posts on GS to this effect, that he lives up in Maine somewhere and has a class he produced that is very similar to PFAL. People can get it by paying a yearly franchise fee, to use it. I was told several years ago it was about 4,000 bucks. If you pay the fee, you can get his Foundational class and run it for a year as many times as you want and I think - charge whatever you want for it if you do charge anything. I've never seen it or know anything about if first hand, I assume there's some kind of handshake arrangement or perhaps a contract to that effect. Maybe someone knows the specifics, but basically it's a user fee, and it sounded to me like a kind of franchise arrangement. You may already know that much, or more . (and for my part I think all these people who repackage PFAL and sell it for money are blood-sucking tics)
You already know this - for a few years Chris Geer was giving copies of PFAL to people in the USA, maybe other countries too, since the Way in Europe had rights to it and other Way books and materials, so they weren't "illegal" copies, they were legal. There's a bunch of those copies floating around I've been told. Haven't seen any of them first hand but at the time I was told that they were being run and people were taking and/or retaking it from those copies.
I think some people who wanted to keep going the way they had been but didn't want to stay associated with the Way and Craig Martindale saw it as a reasonable way to reorganize and use these other classes and books, etc as their central doctrine and teaching media. There's a lot of different "flavors" of Ex-Way groups in the U.S. as it sounds like there are in Mexico.
My own personal decision for myself and my family was to get away from these guys and their various ministries and literally disconnect from the whole organization, formally and informally. That included Geer, The Way International, and any and all major and minor "offshoots" and splinter groups as they're called. Some of the people I would still consider friends, although they might not feel the same way about me, but I hold nothing personal against them. They did what they felt was good for them, that's their business. So did I, and it's my life to live as I see fit. Life goes on and if we cross paths again I hope it's under friendly circumstances.
I don't trust Geer or the Way International and that's directed what I've done. Many people took what he wrote in Passing of the Patriarch as the truth, word for word. If you read it, there's no substance to it, little specific information. It's basically what Geer says VPW talked to him about and told him prior to his own death while visiting Geer. It amounts to a very dismal view of VPW in the last few years of his life, in which he is sick, weak and critical of nearly everyone he's worked with over the years and has little to say as to how to address any of those criticisms. If you believe Geer, VPW told him to watch the They Way of U.S. for a year and if things didn't get "better" then to come forward and pass on VPW's concerns, posthumously.
The problem is that of all that I heard and read that came out of Geer there was never anything specific as to what could be done to make things right. If all it amounted to was pray, believe and get your heart right, fine. But he knew - he had to know what his actions were going to cause in the U.S. And if he didn't he's so dense as to be irresponsible.
But as others have said, I believe The Way was an accident just waiting to happen. Geer became a flashpoint for awhile, and a new leader for some. But what happened in 86-89 was just a very unfortunate and ugly version of what would have happened anyway. I believe inevitably age, maturity and growth on the part of the people would have brought changes over time. The Way was a system that wasn't built to change, so it's rigid structure would have broken from the stress. That's my take and I believe it because that was already happening in our family and others that I knew.
The specific comments Geer did make were rediculous. Anyone who was interested in doing good and actually making things better that they thought were wrong would never have handled it the way Geer did. So I don't trust him. He was like a bull in a china shop, with no goal or mission other than the stated one of passing on VPW's remarks and concerns. Whatever conversations he had one on one with the Trustees I can only imagine. Based on what I saw I doubt they were coherent enough to produce any real clear communication.
You might wonder why, if I was involved at the time and felt this way, why I didn't mount some grand effort to save the Way. Reasons - 1 - information was so sporadic and incomplete, it took awhile to find out what had really happened, let alone was happening. For example - LCM was never supposed to take his initial conversations with Geer and make them public. He did and blew the whole Way International staff out of the water one night with no warning. I had a couple people call ME, in another state, the next week to see if I knew anything about what Geer was doing....??? Unbelievable. So it took most of 86 to for me try and assess what was possible, if anything. I was at 3 meetings at Way Headquarters and by the 3rd, I felt it was time to leave as nothing was getting done and Geer was so abusive as to be hateful. It was time for change.
2 - We had our fellowhip of about 10 people and our friends and family. I felt most responsible to those peopple, that knew me. That's the group I took care of, and I did my best. They've all come out very well, and even a couple have been back with the Way, from what I've been told. I hold no animosity towards them for that. They're good people, they have to make their own decisions.
Oh my. Did this get long or what?????
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excathedra
i can't read those long posts
but i'm sure knowing socks it was wonderful
themex, i wish you the best in life and in your relationship with your god and your savior jesus christ
my advice
stay the p huck away from geer
and anyone who looks like him ..... or wierwille .....
peace
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socks
It was, exallente'. It was. I laughed, I cried, I chuckled. I wish you'd seen it in the original, but alas, even as I tapped it out I myself dozed off for portions of it. Still it must have been awesome based on the drool trail that I found on my keyboard after I came to.
I'm sure many have been helped by it and will want to know where to send Love Offerings, so it would be selfish at this point to not allow for the wellspring of giving that's bound to occur, so for those who were helped and you know who you are, please get the relief you deserve from your burden of debt and send money now to "itonlyhurtzwhenidontgivetosocks@dollarsandcentz.com"
Thank you, you'll be glad you did, and you'll love the signed foto (by me, yes me) of the cover of my next book to be titled "Relief and How to Get It", that comes to each and every person who does The Right Thing, printed in vintage black and white on clean white paper and sent at no additional cost or expense to anyone. Be one of the first 100 givers and this one time, once in a lifetime offer will be included. Just send along 15.95 American for the nominal shipping and handling charges. Please be aware that, of course, these minimal handling fees are not True Giving, so don't be fooled and let that effect the amount of your normal Love Response. We want to keep it...honest here. Thank you.
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Jim
Socks, in a blinding flash of inspiration, wrote..
Any chance I can get an "America Awakes Again, This Time not in Ohio" CD with that?
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dmiller
*Relief and How to Get It* --- America Awaits!!!
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WhiteDove
Update: The new issue of Glimpses of Truth arrived this week no family news update in it but enclosed was Chris & Barbara's Holiday Card a picture of them by the lake. (I'd guess Lake Sabago) by their house.
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Digitalis
HCW ..... sorry that "this day and time" gets to you, but its a phrase that has been in many more cycles than TWI. I have heard the President of the U.S. use it in a speech. Not everything in my mind revolves around TWI anylonger and I don't believe because I wrote it concerning a past situation that I am programmed by TWI at this point in my life. It truly is just a sentence to me. Now had I used "the Present Truth" I probably would have caused myself to vomit.
The Mex ...... I can understand your concern and your heart. Its just so unhealthy for some to get wrapped up in things I am sending you a personal message through Grease Spots Forum with my email addy. I know a couple in Europe who I keep contact with regularly who were under CGs leadership at one time who might be willing to help you understand if understanding is your desire.
Digi
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Sunesis
Great post Socks!
One of the things that always got me during this time, and you mentioned it, was that there were never any specifics.
The BOT had to repent, 80% of the corps were possessed, we had to "change." Everyone had to change their wrong ways.
Well, WHAT WAS BEING DONE WRONG????? CHANGE WHAT????? Specifics please.
Just being told to "change," "get right with God," without ever being told specifics is just stupid.
CG was a divider and a manipulator. He swoops out of Gartmore to H.Q. Tells everyone they're messed up, but doesn't say in what way, just everyone has to get back to the Word, and leaves in a huff. He came a couple of times, delivered a message, then does a dissappearing act - runs back to Gartmore. I got tired of it. Literally, he'd come to H.Q. during corps week, read POP, then two minutes later, he's left the building, gone. He was a poser and a game player - head games. People fell for it.
Then at the clergy meeting he calls, he makes sure everyone sees his .45 he places in the podium while he's getting ready to speak. A paranoid nutcase. I've often wondered, why didn't the clergy stand up and tell him to stuff it, and go disappear. I've never seen anyone so intimidate the clergy as he did. What were they afraid of?
It was posturing, threats, and intimidation on CG's part under the guise of "spirituality." I was VP's friend, I know inner secrets, you don't, do as I say, if you don't, I'll humiliate you publically. Why wasn't there a clergy uprising?
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Mike
Sunesis,
I agree with you most whole heartedly that the call for change was totally lacking in specifics and contributed to a very confusing situation.
The SPECIFIC change that Dr had called for, starting slow in the mid 70's, and then a little more intensely in the 1979 AC, and continuing on to a peak in his Last/Lost Teaching was that we had to COME BACK to the collaterals and master them, even if we were top leaders and had mastered the film class and had passed relatively simple AC tests on the collaterals.
This SPECIFIC change, in it's final form, was delivered in Chris Geer's presence, and Geer even documents the setup Dr personally gave him as they approached the meeting hall, that it would most probably be Dr's dying last words to us all. Geer, in his POP, mentions much about that last teaching's setup but NOTHING of it's contents, which he totally blew off.
That it was extremely strong spiritual forces that were obscuring Chris Geer's hearing of this SPECIFIC change Dr had advised in that teaching is obvious when we observe that EVERY SINGLE OTHER top leader turned a deaf ear to Dr's last teaching, and thus it was lost to 99% of the non-Corps population.
Even high ranking leaders who were totally unaware of Dr's last teaching (PM me for a few names that may surprise you), leaders who had never been even the slightest bit aware of it, when told about it in very recent years have repeated the errors of previous leaders in-the-know and have TOTALLY blown it off themselves. This says that those extremely strong spiritual forces that obscured Dr's SPECIFIC call for change back in 1985 are still at work today. Many readers of this post will do the same and find some way to totally ignore what I'm saying and remain in a state of total disobedience to God.
If we ever want to do what EVERY SINGLE leader of the fallen TWI-1 failed to do it would be to heed the advice Dr gave us to get away from all TVTs (Twi Verbal Traditions) and come back to the written form of PFAL and master it. THIS is the specific instruction to change that we ALL missed.
.
.
.
.
.
.
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Raf
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Mike
Raf,
I just wrote: "Many readers of this post will do the same and find some way to totally ignore what I'm saying and remain in a state of total disobedience to God."
I've told you before that this is an OLG thing, that we Older Leader Grads, are the ones who blew it here and entered into total disobedience to God by ignoring this specific change order.
You are not to be blamed for our grievous error. You arrived too late to see the GREAT good that we saw, and I can't blame you for ignoring Dr's specific advice. I doubt if God blames you, either. But we OLGs have got a lot of explaining to do at the bema.
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Raf
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Mike
Raf,
If you only knew how much I identify with and love 45 rpm records, broken or not, you'd try a different strategery. I actually enjoy your latest response mode.
I even wrote a poem that includes a line about those lovable antiquities, the 45 record, and I think I posted it here long ago, but it may have been in a thread that was pruned in the last days of the old GSC software.
I just hope you still have your settings fixed on the "ignore Mike" mode so that you continue with this perfectly pleasant punctuation of my posts.
BTW, there is a good side to the repetition of something over and over.
It's called consistency.
I intend to not modify my repeated alerting to what we all have forgotten or that had slipped passed us unawares many years ago when we were still being taught by the man God selected to bring His Word back to being available to all who want it.
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GarthP2000
ROFLMAO!!! Good one Raf!
... Should've made that an AO-Hell CD. :D
Smikeol,
'strategery'?? :blink:
Face it dude.
You're getting nowhere here, and your pitch just ain't gonna sell, especially the one about how the OLGs are going to have to answer to God for not paying attention to the PFAL collaterals. I mean, there are FAR worse crimes that one can commit, ..... Like ohhh, .....
..... getting a parking ticket?
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Mike
Garth,
When something GREAT is given to us, and we let it slip through our fingers, it's a shame. When you consider the GREAT incompetency at all levels of leadership that resulted from this slippage, it becomes much more than a shame.
By far, most of the abuses bemoaned here at GSC stem directly from this great incompetency all us OLGs are guilty of.
There are many, many different symptoms that resulted out of our failure to carry out the specific orders we were given, but it all traces back to one common trait we share, how we TOTALLY refused to get the message in our heads as accurate as it was put into print.
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