analyzing the breakdown of the way ministry with geer and those other men is like, i don't know, one flew over the cookoo's nest..... great movie wasn't it ?
Geer's refusal to accept something just because Wierwille said it is something I always admired about him.
snort snort ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha snort snort ha ha ha ha snort
what are you talking about, dear raf ? that was the secrecy of his moves..... ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
quote: Geer's refusal to accept something just because Wierwille said it is something I always admired about him.
Like I said, it's just plain healthy.
Nobody disputes that the catholic church has power, but they've had the same doctrine for 1600 yrs and clearly their priority is church first, peoples' lives second.
Even in non biblical belief systems people need their space. Let's compare the I Ching with astrology: I don't know who wrote what's in those I Ching hexagrams but here they sit. They say the same things they said thousands of yrs ago when they were written. What you throw is what you get. By contrast, an astrologer, once informed as to your date and time of birth, has a lot more play in what he/she could tell you.
Even Hitler, in his introductory remarks to "Mein Kamph" practically apologized for writing it saying that great political or religious movements depend more on charismatic leaders than written documentation.
There's a catholic church in STL, St. Stanislaus, which is at odds with the arch bishop. He won't allow them access to the sacraments or something and the whole church including their new priest won't back down and are being threatened with excommunication. The arch bishop is probably going to win and it's all about the rules, no scandal or anything. I'm following the story from afar off, but nuking an entire church just because of some rule seems like an unnecessary power play from where I look, yet the last thing those people would consider is not being catholic any more.
Hey Sunesis. There were a few reasons why I didn't walk out of the infamous "clergy meeting" at the Way Nash, with Geer.
I went with 2 other guys from the city I lived in. The Way Corps got together a week or so before the meeting and discussed concerns, what questions everyone had at that time, etc. One of the aims of our going was to come back with any information that was available. So one reason I wanted to stay if I chose to was to come back with as complete a picture of the proceedings as I could.
I wasn't expecting much but I wanted to remain positive about the possiblities. So I went prepared to support anything I felt I honestly could. In fact there wasn't much to the whole proceedings that amounted to anything practical or constructive, but I also decided to stay to get to see people that came in from around the country. It was the last time I saw most of them and I knew that would probably be the case.
Still, we 3 spoke about our plans before going and we could envision a possible situation where any one of us or all of us would choose to leave. So we each had our own personal thoughts about what and why and figured we'd wait and see, and hopefully support whatever individual decision anyone made.
One thing I didn't want was a violent situation to develop. Tempers were high, there was a lot of frustration and concern. If the Trustees chose to stonewall, and people took physical action to overthrow the meeting and the Trustees it could have gotten out of hand in a minute. Some people talk like that would have been a good thing. Not if you'd have been there and knew the people assembled. Once someone crossed that line... I don't think it was the right thing for anyone to do and I'm glad no one did.
I was seated about 8-9 rows back for the opening meeting, a few seats inside the center aisle on the right side. I never saw Geer's gun that others say he hauled out. He may have, but I didn't see him do it. Some people stood up when he hit the podium, others didn't. My view may have been blocked. If he did it wasn't as if he held it up and waved it around or I'd probably have seen it. That may contradict what others have told you, and I don't say this to debate, just to say I didn't see it. It's odd, because no one that did see this said anything to me about it or that I heard during the break or later overnight or at breakfast the next day. Everyone wasn't running around saying "did you see his .45!!! what's up with that???" Not at all that I remember. Again, I may have missed out on it entirely.
Most of the people I knew that were there that I talked to were having a tough time deciding what to do. It was obvious the Trustees were whupped and of no use to anyone in their assigned job duties. Some had done background on how to get them out, legally. It wasn't easy to do, not based on what we were actually dealing with in concerns and likely wouldn't be successful. Geer was in some paranoid fantasy world and mostly interested in declaring his views on the condition of everyone and everything, and most of that was bad. His manner indicated to me he relished this opportunity to set the record straight according to his opinion with his usual pseudo-heavy muggish manner. Plus he made the Pillsbury Dough Boy look lean and tanned. He just had a bad look about him, not healthy.
So it was tough - you want to do something to help, but the door's shut. I had made a personal vow to leave that night and day with diginity, whenever I left. I wasn't going to throw my chair at Geer or the Trustees and cuss them out or attempt to commandeer the meeting. Nothing would have been accomplished by that, besides having an interesting story to tell here now. I intended to look for possible ways in the existing environment to see if I could have an impact. I didn't find any and I had none to pass on when we came back.
He spoke, we broke for 15 minutes or so and came back in, expecting to begin to discuss what the h-ll was going on. Instead the trustees rehashed what Geer had said and we put on some Advanced Class tape segments. I got up after awhile and went out for a smoke and the meeting broke awhile after that so I don't know exactly what happened, other than that. The next day we did something else, more tapes I think, don't remember, more smokes. At that point, it was mostly a matter of the weather, it was cold, it had snowed there that week and it was pointless to head to the airport early and wait it out there. I'd had a lot of good times in the BRC, and with a lot of these people. It was sad personally because like I say I doubted I'd ever be back again.
I saw Howard before I left and we talked but nothing came of it. I think he expected us all to just go along with it all, but I let him know we were figuring out what we were going to do and I didn't like the whole thing we'd just done. He sent his love to my wife and family and that was that.
FYI- Recently Word Promotions released 20 MP3 disks of THE Gartmore SNS also on the disks were The Principles for Victorious Living Class and that 1st European Twig Coordinators . Meeting. Conspicuously absent was the A Pivot Point in History tapes. Everything else was on the disks, I'm guessing that he rethought his view on them.
hey socks thank you for your post. i think if i wanted to be a christian i would move to the west coast but you don't even run a fellowship ok so i'll just move nextdoor ha ha ha ha ha ha
"Plus he made the Pillsbury Dough Boy look lean and tanned" that blessed me very much. this has always been his condition. (i hate the *%^#* ant.)
you're so great. it seems you really believed at that time you were called of god. i think i believed that also for a long time when i was a "non" ha hah ha member of the way
i know you said you're not good. the bible says no one is good but god. but whatever, i don't get that
FYI- Recently Word Promotions released 20 MP3 disks of THE Gartmore SNS also on the disks were The Principles for Victorious Living Class and that 1st European Twig Coordinators . Meeting. Conspicuously absent was the A Pivot Point in History tapes. Everything else was on the disks, I'm guessing that he rethought his view on them.
I hope so. At least CES gives a more passionate and Word-based defense of the position. I don't agree with it, but at least they try. Pivot Point was a waste of tape.
I never was clear on why he left Gartmore. My best guess is there was a power struggle and TWI won. But I haven't the slightest idea.
The walking in God's power class was developed while Chris worked for The Way In Great Britain ( Not The same as The Way) At some point he started Word Promotions and at that point the Gartmore SNS tapes and the class were transferred to Word Promotions but he was also still an employee of The Way in GB. Something about trustees could not be paid in GB so he was always an employee. The Way in Great Britain advertised the 1st class to be held at Gartmore House and people flew in from all over to take it. The weekend it was supposed to happen The 3 trustees of the Way of Great Britain had not approved the license agreement only Johnny Townsend signed off on it. My guess was it came down to money, I'm sure that The Way of GB thought that they should be getting the money since it was developed when Chris was an employee. Once it was done it was now in Word Promotions control. And the Way in GB was stuck having to pay a fee not getting income. It was a mess and the class never ran that weekend Chris apologized and ended up teaching some other teachings and everyone went home. He advised everyone to contact the other 2 trustees as to why they had defaulted on their agreement. Which did not go well with them. I don't know if people ever got refunds but they were out a lot of air fare cash plus expenses. A battle ensued and Chris and Johnny quit. Chris set up an office in Scotland and moved home. That left Robert Wilkerson and Graham A. with Gartmore House I suppose that they either had no desire to run the place or the cost was too high. I don't know how the support of the people fell maybe Trefor knows.
By the time any news of the CG meetings and of the abuses within twi had reached my ears (circ.1987), news of scandals, corruption, greed, abuses, powerplays and just plain insanities had also emerged about other Christian groups and celebrities outside the Way.
The Jim Bakker PTL scandal; Jerry Falwell's questionable "power-play" role in the entire PTL affair; Jimmy Swaggert's hypocrisy exposed and his well-known, dramatic power cry; Peter Popoff's "healing" acts being exposed by the "Amazing Randi"; and lest we forget, Oral Roberts claim that God would kill him unless he raised 8 million bucks.
Not exactly a good year for old time Bible thumpers. It's interesting that this all seemingly happened about the same time, though give or take a year for my memory; a lot of pillars came tumbling down. Suffice to say, what was happening was apparently not only a Way thing.
Thanks My3cents and Socks. I totally understand, being a tense situation, CG's paranoia, etc., it probably wouldn't have been wise to rock the boat righ there.
I have a feeling, if there was nothing to be done to legally remove the Trustees, well, there really wasn't much that could have been done was there? People kept their dignity and just walked.
I still feel CG was used like God used Pharoah - his actions opened the door for the mass exodus of us "oldsters." I would imagine, if they were like me, this had been something working on their hearts for a long time. That's why we all went en masse. I really think it was a move of God to get us out.
I tried talking to the new young corps guys. They were LCM men all the way - and were going to follow no matter what - their take was, he's a great guy, just going through some tough times, we are committed and will follow him. After talking to the second young man, I realized, you know, they are exactly where I was at when I was in my late teens, early 20s, you couldn't have told me anything. So, I gave up.
I see the Allen lawsuit as the open door for that younger generation to leave.
Regarding CG's franchise, someone once posted on here a long time ago about how much money they lost doing this. I guess its keeping him in the money though.
White Dove .......... there was a power struggle between TWI lawyers and CG in Europe and his Lawyers. In about 1995 on hook up LCM announced that they were no longer seeking to regain Gartmore or any part of it. It was financially costing TWI usa to much money. TWI USA let it go, seeing as Gartmore it was set up as a completely seperate corporation being in Europe.
TWI USA did not win the power struggle. They gave it up. The reason I believe is because the corps went full time being paid by the ministry at this point and it cost too much money for the lawyers to continue to try to regain gartmore. TWI had to pay for the Corpse in the field as full time employees.
Digitalis I am aware of that event although I don't think that was why The Way Int. settled. They didn't have much to stand on really they had signed it away. Like the other lawsuits they thought they could outlast because of their money. In the end they got into a ....ing contest with the wrong person. It cost both sides a lot of money but at the end I believe The Way Int. footed the bill I heard they paid a hefty settlement bill around 5 million. I guess Craig left that part out when he announced it. This event was however not why Chris left Gartmore it was free and clear at that point and in the Way in Great Britains Ltd. name. He departed because of the class situation.
Thanks for the details, whitedove and everyone. As a former friend of CG and his wife, I'd be interested in any details of what they're up to now. Where they live, do they run a ministry? how many followers etc.
Chris and Barbara live in Maine He still has an office in Glasgow Scotland which houses Word Promotions Ltd. Word Promotions handles all the distribution of class materials for the Walking in God's Power Series. They also publish a free newsletter Glimpses of Truth. Last I knew they also have a fellowship that meets in their home but that may have changed.
i remember one time i walked past veepee and geer and barbara delivering wierwille's precious little lamb puppies. he cared more about those dogs than people. anyway, barbara did something "wrong" i guess helping in the delivery, and wierwille ripped into her and RAGED and SCREAMED and CURSED and went off like a raving maniac, using words that were even over-the-top for me. it was the most abusive disgusting rant of a lunactic i ever heard, and i've heard the best of them.
what did chris do ? not a damn thing. i was so scared i was shaking. i ran away. if i had had any brains, i would have walked up and punched both of them in the face.
Like the other lawsuits they thought they could outlast because of their money. In the end they got into a ....ing contest with the wrong person. It cost both sides a lot of money
I used to receive Chris' newsletters when I first left twi. If I remember correctly, Doveman, one of the lawsuits was over copyrights and ownership of the PFAL class. One of his letters reflected that never in a million years did he ever think that in carrying out what vpw supposedly commissioned him to do would involve having to re-record a class to replace PFAL. And there he found himself, following a bitter legal battle with the evil and carnal trustees - - now having yet another burden thrust upon himself - - a burden to record a class series.
After that happened, subsequent letters were just too painful for me to read anymore. He seemed to be more and more hurt, bitter, burdened. He seemed to be more and more isolated and he seemed (to me) to come across as some type of martyr - - that he alone was carrying out the true ministry of the Word - - isolated, alone, with little resources - - just Barbara and the girls to help him with the enormity of work left to do.
After a few more of those letters, I never wanted to receive any more. I was involved in other Christian ministries and visiting churches that were much more uplifting, fruitful and joyous than anything I was experiencing with twi, ex-twi splinter groups, or especially from heavy, sullen reports from the Geer family.
I've met Chris and Barbara and have nothing ill to say of them, but his brand of Christianity is just not for me. Life is too short and God is too good to have to be subjected to that kind of heaviness, IMHO.
one of the most loving kind wonderful people, a dear fellow and friend, called me from great britain and told me how geer said he was no longer welcome at the way. he and his wife had marital difficulties and geer called them in for a marriage counseling session. lo and behold, he had a lineup of other clergy there (you need witnesses, you know), to their utter shock and dismay. he questioned them about their sexual relations. he told the wife (also my friend and a very modest shy gal just like her husband) that she should stick her finger up his butt and suck his dick, if she were a good wife. he told him (i think this was in a man-to-man separate counseling session) that he should get a prostitute, lest the ministry be blamed (divorce).....
anyway, this friend of mine was having a nervous breakdown, it seemed apparent to me
i called wierwille and told on geer. wierwille's response to me was, "how long do i have to suck your corps asses"
but he must have said something to geer because geer called me at home and told me to be very very careful because my friend (the husband) was packing some big ones. i said big what ? he said, you know devil spirits.....
ahhhhhhhhhh what a minister, what a shepherd.
someday i should tell the story about me on the coach when wierwille finally got me. our dear chris was the driver.
I used to receive Chris' newsletters when I first left twi. If I remember correctly, Doveman, one of the lawsuits was over copyrights and ownership of the PFAL class. One of his letters reflected that never in a million years did he ever think that in carrying out what vpw supposedly commissioned him to do would involve having to re-record a class to replace PFAL. And there he found himself, following a bitter legal battle with the evil and carnal trustees - - now having yet another burden thrust upon himself - - a burden to record a class series.
After that happened, subsequent letters were just too painful for me to read anymore. He seemed to be more and more hurt, bitter, burdened. He seemed to be more and more isolated and he seemed (to me) to come across as some type of martyr - - that he alone was carrying out the true ministry of the Word - - isolated, alone, with little resources - - just Barbara and the girls to help him with the enormity of work left to do.
J
I don't know if all the lawsuits got eventually rolled into one but you are correct one was about the class ,and the rights to publish materials, and for Gartmore itself. The Ways attorneys tried after Craig signed all of it away to recover it. It seems that there was this grey area (isn't there always for attorneys) They argued that yes the legal documents said that he had ownership but that was for Europe only. Another words he could not send stuff back into the USA. I think it drug on for about ten years but he eventually won the cases. There may have been some plea offers I don't know I would think so. I do know that the class materials have to be distributed from Scotland not from Maine so there must be some reason for this.
I gave up trying to guess why things with those guys take so long There is no reason I can see but then again I am not involved. Chris has the help available of some of the top former leaders in The Way. Trustees, Region leaders, Cabinet members and yet he seems to want to do it himself makes no sense to me.
I think this is about the 5th time he has junked all the work on his Advanced Class and started over I'm not convinced that it will ever happen at this point (not that I am waiting for it.) He does have I believe two staff people at Word Promotions Cathy C. and another woman whose name escapes me at the moment. For all the business there seems to be little getting done.
one of the most loving kind wonderful people, a dear fellow and friend, called me from great britain and told me how geer said he was no longer welcome at the way. he and his wife had marital difficulties and geer called them in for a marriage counseling session. lo and behold, he had a lineup of other clergy there (you need witnesses, you know), to their utter shock and dismay. he questioned them about their sexual relations. he told the wife (also my friend and a very modest shy gal just like her husband) that she should stick her finger up his butt and suck his dick, if she were a good wife. he told him (i think this was in a man-to-man separate counseling session) that he should get a prostitute, lest the ministry be blamed (divorce).....
anyway, this friend of mine was having a nervous breakdown, it seemed apparent to me
i called wierwille and told on geer. wierwille's response to me was, "how long do i have to suck your corps asses"
but he must have said something to geer because geer called me at home and told me to be very very careful because my friend (the husband) was packing some big ones. i said big what ? he said, you know devil spirits.....
ahhhhhhhhhh what a minister, what a shepherd.
someday i should tell the story about me on the coach when wierwille finally got me. our dear chris was the driver.
Wow! It never amazes me with the lack of consideration in counseling.
My ex and I went to counseling twice while "in". Once was in a "stick" with Ph*l B*nadies. He wasn't any good. He never got to addressing the real problem. It was sad. My ex had a drug problem. He wasn't a daily drug user, but he was a binge user. He would start arguements so he would have an excuse to leave to 2 days and do drugs. I never told Ph*l that was going on because I was a good little co-dependent in hiding my ex's problem. But you would think the spiritual know-it-all would have asked why my ex left and what he did for 2 days at a time......gawd am I glad that is over!
To top it off, when we went back to twi after the "stick" fellowships, we had marriage counseling with the BC, they came over and said "We aren't going ove the complaints." They told us to read "Heir Together in the Grace of Life" from volume 5 and that was it. That was really healing.......I would have rather had a stick drove under my fingernail.
It just shows you that there were no qualified people to counsel individuals or couples. It was a twisted sick problem.
They told us to read "Heir Together in the Grace of Life" from volume 5 and that was it. That was really healing.......I would have rather had a stick drove under my fingernail.
pitiful
I think this is about the 5th time he has junked all the work on his Advanced Class and started over
You know Exie, I believe that telling details, no matter how lurid, of the experiences like you shared concerning the delivering of the dogs paint mental pictures that are worth thousands and thousands more words than the vast majority of the other stuff we've discussed here.
Reason being that accounts like the doggy thing are the missing link for many many people. They speak directly to the root character of these men. My brother is an actor, a good one, a professional. He has, as well as any with similar talents, an "on stage" persona. Actors all know that you cannot believe what you see of actors when you see them sitting with Jay leno or Dave, or whomever. One must be very estute to carve through to "see" what is ther of THEM when they are "on.
Whatever was said or done, CG was "ON" at the clergy meetings. Whenever he taught or spoke publickly in any way - - ON. They showed us what they wanted us to see in them whenever. This to me accounts for the HUGE disparity when it comes to who VPW was to whom. CG as well. I never saw him when he wasn't "ON," therefore he was to me, as I saw him, which was what he wanted me to see of him then. This makes my view of him skewed in the direction he wanted it to go.
Of course we all do this in life, we all have our masks.
BUT. When the was with VP, sharing what was for the both of them a passion at near the root of their character and Barbie "dared" flow cross purposes to it; BAM in the heart of the moment, "of the abundance of their hearts," they spoke... YOU witnessed it. Your witness can counter the skew effect and bring a view of then back to "true north," so to speak.
What is/was CG doing? Precisely what he did. Dismantling TWI. I'm leaning toward what Sunesis & others have suggested that God had some part in using the whole CG thing to shock some of us into waking up and getting out.
I can't say for sure if I would have stayed longer than I did w/o the events that followed POP, but I do think I was there at the time longer than I perhaps, should have been. Its defintely debatable, although I don't self debate it, because out is out is out. When I think of my time in TWI these days any internal debate I have is in terms of "are you REALLY out or what?"
Being out of TWI is a GOOD thing. I'm sure I can find a scripture to that effect.
Speaking of out, I think the truth should come out, all of it, each person in their own time as to when they feel they can or want to share it.
For me, when I hear of VP and CG becoming stark raving madmen concerning the birth of a dog.... When you tell of your witness of his violating his wife, when others tell of their ugly remarks in the name of counseling... giving advice that any person would agree is pornographic, to say the least; that helps. It helps me personally to factor your witness into my own witness of these men. Especially when I can bear witness of how he/they treated the dogs, one of which you witnessed being born. For brevity's sake, they "treated them LIKE DOGS!"
Your stories fill gaps, answers some questions that mybe I didn't know I had. (Like HOW can you treat a dog you say you LOVE and is such a prized animal like THAT? ??? In the name of training? I'm glad I'M not your DOG. I wouldn't hunt for you either... OBEY you? No way.) More accurately, I overlooked the questions, maybe for the clear lack of coherent answers to them.
I'm thinking my brain filled in the blanks with my own desires of what I felt they should be, or what I WANTED them to be. That's not healthy baby.
Your experiences, not matter who lurid really do and CAN have great value in these forums.... for all of us, please share.
may i call your attention to this post so that you can delete it also
one of the most loving kind wonderful people, a dear fellow and friend, called me from great britain and told me how geer said he was no longer welcome at the way. he and his wife had marital difficulties and geer called them in for a marriage counseling session. lo and behold, he had a lineup of other clergy there (you need witnesses, you know), to their utter shock and dismay. he questioned them about their sexual relations. he told the wife (also my friend and a very modest shy gal just like her husband) that she should stick her finger up his butt and suck his dick, if she were a good wife. he told him (i think this was in a man-to-man separate counseling session) that he should get a prostitute, lest the ministry be blamed (divorce).....
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analyzing the breakdown of the way ministry with geer and those other men is like, i don't know, one flew over the cookoo's nest..... great movie wasn't it ?
snort snort ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha snort snort ha ha ha ha snortwhat are you talking about, dear raf ? that was the secrecy of his moves..... ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
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johniam
quote: Geer's refusal to accept something just because Wierwille said it is something I always admired about him.
Like I said, it's just plain healthy.
Nobody disputes that the catholic church has power, but they've had the same doctrine for 1600 yrs and clearly their priority is church first, peoples' lives second.
Even in non biblical belief systems people need their space. Let's compare the I Ching with astrology: I don't know who wrote what's in those I Ching hexagrams but here they sit. They say the same things they said thousands of yrs ago when they were written. What you throw is what you get. By contrast, an astrologer, once informed as to your date and time of birth, has a lot more play in what he/she could tell you.
Even Hitler, in his introductory remarks to "Mein Kamph" practically apologized for writing it saying that great political or religious movements depend more on charismatic leaders than written documentation.
There's a catholic church in STL, St. Stanislaus, which is at odds with the arch bishop. He won't allow them access to the sacraments or something and the whole church including their new priest won't back down and are being threatened with excommunication. The arch bishop is probably going to win and it's all about the rules, no scandal or anything. I'm following the story from afar off, but nuking an entire church just because of some rule seems like an unnecessary power play from where I look, yet the last thing those people would consider is not being catholic any more.
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socks
Hey Sunesis. There were a few reasons why I didn't walk out of the infamous "clergy meeting" at the Way Nash, with Geer.
I went with 2 other guys from the city I lived in. The Way Corps got together a week or so before the meeting and discussed concerns, what questions everyone had at that time, etc. One of the aims of our going was to come back with any information that was available. So one reason I wanted to stay if I chose to was to come back with as complete a picture of the proceedings as I could.
I wasn't expecting much but I wanted to remain positive about the possiblities. So I went prepared to support anything I felt I honestly could. In fact there wasn't much to the whole proceedings that amounted to anything practical or constructive, but I also decided to stay to get to see people that came in from around the country. It was the last time I saw most of them and I knew that would probably be the case.
Still, we 3 spoke about our plans before going and we could envision a possible situation where any one of us or all of us would choose to leave. So we each had our own personal thoughts about what and why and figured we'd wait and see, and hopefully support whatever individual decision anyone made.
One thing I didn't want was a violent situation to develop. Tempers were high, there was a lot of frustration and concern. If the Trustees chose to stonewall, and people took physical action to overthrow the meeting and the Trustees it could have gotten out of hand in a minute. Some people talk like that would have been a good thing. Not if you'd have been there and knew the people assembled. Once someone crossed that line... I don't think it was the right thing for anyone to do and I'm glad no one did.
I was seated about 8-9 rows back for the opening meeting, a few seats inside the center aisle on the right side. I never saw Geer's gun that others say he hauled out. He may have, but I didn't see him do it. Some people stood up when he hit the podium, others didn't. My view may have been blocked. If he did it wasn't as if he held it up and waved it around or I'd probably have seen it. That may contradict what others have told you, and I don't say this to debate, just to say I didn't see it. It's odd, because no one that did see this said anything to me about it or that I heard during the break or later overnight or at breakfast the next day. Everyone wasn't running around saying "did you see his .45!!! what's up with that???" Not at all that I remember. Again, I may have missed out on it entirely.
Most of the people I knew that were there that I talked to were having a tough time deciding what to do. It was obvious the Trustees were whupped and of no use to anyone in their assigned job duties. Some had done background on how to get them out, legally. It wasn't easy to do, not based on what we were actually dealing with in concerns and likely wouldn't be successful. Geer was in some paranoid fantasy world and mostly interested in declaring his views on the condition of everyone and everything, and most of that was bad. His manner indicated to me he relished this opportunity to set the record straight according to his opinion with his usual pseudo-heavy muggish manner. Plus he made the Pillsbury Dough Boy look lean and tanned. He just had a bad look about him, not healthy.
So it was tough - you want to do something to help, but the door's shut. I had made a personal vow to leave that night and day with diginity, whenever I left. I wasn't going to throw my chair at Geer or the Trustees and cuss them out or attempt to commandeer the meeting. Nothing would have been accomplished by that, besides having an interesting story to tell here now. I intended to look for possible ways in the existing environment to see if I could have an impact. I didn't find any and I had none to pass on when we came back.
He spoke, we broke for 15 minutes or so and came back in, expecting to begin to discuss what the h-ll was going on. Instead the trustees rehashed what Geer had said and we put on some Advanced Class tape segments. I got up after awhile and went out for a smoke and the meeting broke awhile after that so I don't know exactly what happened, other than that. The next day we did something else, more tapes I think, don't remember, more smokes. At that point, it was mostly a matter of the weather, it was cold, it had snowed there that week and it was pointless to head to the airport early and wait it out there. I'd had a lot of good times in the BRC, and with a lot of these people. It was sad personally because like I say I doubted I'd ever be back again.
I saw Howard before I left and we talked but nothing came of it. I think he expected us all to just go along with it all, but I let him know we were figuring out what we were going to do and I didn't like the whole thing we'd just done. He sent his love to my wife and family and that was that.
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WhiteDove
FYI- Recently Word Promotions released 20 MP3 disks of THE Gartmore SNS also on the disks were The Principles for Victorious Living Class and that 1st European Twig Coordinators . Meeting. Conspicuously absent was the A Pivot Point in History tapes. Everything else was on the disks, I'm guessing that he rethought his view on them.
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excathedra
hey socks thank you for your post. i think if i wanted to be a christian i would move to the west coast but you don't even run a fellowship ok so i'll just move nextdoor ha ha ha ha ha ha
"Plus he made the Pillsbury Dough Boy look lean and tanned" that blessed me very much. this has always been his condition. (i hate the *%^#* ant.)
you're so great. it seems you really believed at that time you were called of god. i think i believed that also for a long time when i was a "non" ha hah ha member of the way
i know you said you're not good. the bible says no one is good but god. but whatever, i don't get that
so much of this is bulll$*@!
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socks
exmeenster, I am called. No doubt about that. You should hear some of the things I'm called!
But good? Hmmm...well, it's not best.
You're welcome. You are a Christian.
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Raf
I hope so. At least CES gives a more passionate and Word-based defense of the position. I don't agree with it, but at least they try. Pivot Point was a waste of tape.
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WhiteDove
The walking in God's power class was developed while Chris worked for The Way In Great Britain ( Not The same as The Way) At some point he started Word Promotions and at that point the Gartmore SNS tapes and the class were transferred to Word Promotions but he was also still an employee of The Way in GB. Something about trustees could not be paid in GB so he was always an employee. The Way in Great Britain advertised the 1st class to be held at Gartmore House and people flew in from all over to take it. The weekend it was supposed to happen The 3 trustees of the Way of Great Britain had not approved the license agreement only Johnny Townsend signed off on it. My guess was it came down to money, I'm sure that The Way of GB thought that they should be getting the money since it was developed when Chris was an employee. Once it was done it was now in Word Promotions control. And the Way in GB was stuck having to pay a fee not getting income. It was a mess and the class never ran that weekend Chris apologized and ended up teaching some other teachings and everyone went home. He advised everyone to contact the other 2 trustees as to why they had defaulted on their agreement. Which did not go well with them. I don't know if people ever got refunds but they were out a lot of air fare cash plus expenses. A battle ensued and Chris and Johnny quit. Chris set up an office in Scotland and moved home. That left Robert Wilkerson and Graham A. with Gartmore House I suppose that they either had no desire to run the place or the cost was too high. I don't know how the support of the people fell maybe Trefor knows.
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TheInvisibleDan
By the time any news of the CG meetings and of the abuses within twi had reached my ears (circ.1987), news of scandals, corruption, greed, abuses, powerplays and just plain insanities had also emerged about other Christian groups and celebrities outside the Way.
The Jim Bakker PTL scandal; Jerry Falwell's questionable "power-play" role in the entire PTL affair; Jimmy Swaggert's hypocrisy exposed and his well-known, dramatic power cry; Peter Popoff's "healing" acts being exposed by the "Amazing Randi"; and lest we forget, Oral Roberts claim that God would kill him unless he raised 8 million bucks.
Not exactly a good year for old time Bible thumpers. It's interesting that this all seemingly happened about the same time, though give or take a year for my memory; a lot of pillars came tumbling down. Suffice to say, what was happening was apparently not only a Way thing.
Danny
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Sunesis
Thanks My3cents and Socks. I totally understand, being a tense situation, CG's paranoia, etc., it probably wouldn't have been wise to rock the boat righ there.
I have a feeling, if there was nothing to be done to legally remove the Trustees, well, there really wasn't much that could have been done was there? People kept their dignity and just walked.
I still feel CG was used like God used Pharoah - his actions opened the door for the mass exodus of us "oldsters." I would imagine, if they were like me, this had been something working on their hearts for a long time. That's why we all went en masse. I really think it was a move of God to get us out.
I tried talking to the new young corps guys. They were LCM men all the way - and were going to follow no matter what - their take was, he's a great guy, just going through some tough times, we are committed and will follow him. After talking to the second young man, I realized, you know, they are exactly where I was at when I was in my late teens, early 20s, you couldn't have told me anything. So, I gave up.
I see the Allen lawsuit as the open door for that younger generation to leave.
Regarding CG's franchise, someone once posted on here a long time ago about how much money they lost doing this. I guess its keeping him in the money though.
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Digitalis
White Dove .......... there was a power struggle between TWI lawyers and CG in Europe and his Lawyers. In about 1995 on hook up LCM announced that they were no longer seeking to regain Gartmore or any part of it. It was financially costing TWI usa to much money. TWI USA let it go, seeing as Gartmore it was set up as a completely seperate corporation being in Europe.
TWI USA did not win the power struggle. They gave it up. The reason I believe is because the corps went full time being paid by the ministry at this point and it cost too much money for the lawyers to continue to try to regain gartmore. TWI had to pay for the Corpse in the field as full time employees.
Digi
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WhiteDove
Digitalis I am aware of that event although I don't think that was why The Way Int. settled. They didn't have much to stand on really they had signed it away. Like the other lawsuits they thought they could outlast because of their money. In the end they got into a ....ing contest with the wrong person. It cost both sides a lot of money but at the end I believe The Way Int. footed the bill I heard they paid a hefty settlement bill around 5 million. I guess Craig left that part out when he announced it. This event was however not why Chris left Gartmore it was free and clear at that point and in the Way in Great Britains Ltd. name. He departed because of the class situation.
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My3Cents
Thanks for the details, whitedove and everyone. As a former friend of CG and his wife, I'd be interested in any details of what they're up to now. Where they live, do they run a ministry? how many followers etc.
Thanks
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WhiteDove
Chris and Barbara live in Maine He still has an office in Glasgow Scotland which houses Word Promotions Ltd. Word Promotions handles all the distribution of class materials for the Walking in God's Power Series. They also publish a free newsletter Glimpses of Truth. Last I knew they also have a fellowship that meets in their home but that may have changed.
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
and all of that money being ....ed away.......who's was it?
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excathedra
i remember one time i walked past veepee and geer and barbara delivering wierwille's precious little lamb puppies. he cared more about those dogs than people. anyway, barbara did something "wrong" i guess helping in the delivery, and wierwille ripped into her and RAGED and SCREAMED and CURSED and went off like a raving maniac, using words that were even over-the-top for me. it was the most abusive disgusting rant of a lunactic i ever heard, and i've heard the best of them.
what did chris do ? not a damn thing. i was so scared i was shaking. i ran away. if i had had any brains, i would have walked up and punched both of them in the face.
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jardinero
Whitedove said:
I used to receive Chris' newsletters when I first left twi. If I remember correctly, Doveman, one of the lawsuits was over copyrights and ownership of the PFAL class. One of his letters reflected that never in a million years did he ever think that in carrying out what vpw supposedly commissioned him to do would involve having to re-record a class to replace PFAL. And there he found himself, following a bitter legal battle with the evil and carnal trustees - - now having yet another burden thrust upon himself - - a burden to record a class series.
After that happened, subsequent letters were just too painful for me to read anymore. He seemed to be more and more hurt, bitter, burdened. He seemed to be more and more isolated and he seemed (to me) to come across as some type of martyr - - that he alone was carrying out the true ministry of the Word - - isolated, alone, with little resources - - just Barbara and the girls to help him with the enormity of work left to do.
After a few more of those letters, I never wanted to receive any more. I was involved in other Christian ministries and visiting churches that were much more uplifting, fruitful and joyous than anything I was experiencing with twi, ex-twi splinter groups, or especially from heavy, sullen reports from the Geer family.
I've met Chris and Barbara and have nothing ill to say of them, but his brand of Christianity is just not for me. Life is too short and God is too good to have to be subjected to that kind of heaviness, IMHO.
J.
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excathedra
one of the most loving kind wonderful people, a dear fellow and friend, called me from great britain and told me how geer said he was no longer welcome at the way. he and his wife had marital difficulties and geer called them in for a marriage counseling session. lo and behold, he had a lineup of other clergy there (you need witnesses, you know), to their utter shock and dismay. he questioned them about their sexual relations. he told the wife (also my friend and a very modest shy gal just like her husband) that she should stick her finger up his butt and suck his dick, if she were a good wife. he told him (i think this was in a man-to-man separate counseling session) that he should get a prostitute, lest the ministry be blamed (divorce).....
anyway, this friend of mine was having a nervous breakdown, it seemed apparent to me
i called wierwille and told on geer. wierwille's response to me was, "how long do i have to suck your corps asses"
but he must have said something to geer because geer called me at home and told me to be very very careful because my friend (the husband) was packing some big ones. i said big what ? he said, you know devil spirits.....
ahhhhhhhhhh what a minister, what a shepherd.
someday i should tell the story about me on the coach when wierwille finally got me. our dear chris was the driver.
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rascal
Excathedra, that is absolutely disgusting. The damage that man inflicted is utterly reprehensible.
Wierwllles response was equally so..... neither are the behaviors of a Christian, much LESS a leader.....
It is hard to read, but necessary because though wierwille is gone and most know he was a fraud....
THIS man is still masquerading as a Christian minister!
THIS man is still negatively impacting folks lives with reeeeeally bad counceling.
THIS man is still decieving folks into believing that a knowledge of the scriptures as he presents them will help you to be of the spirit.
THIS man is a cold, calloused , piece of work and has disqualified himself as a genuine minister no matter HOW many classes he teaches.
He and his work are unworthey of any respect.
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WhiteDove
[quote Jardinero
I used to receive Chris' newsletters when I first left twi. If I remember correctly, Doveman, one of the lawsuits was over copyrights and ownership of the PFAL class. One of his letters reflected that never in a million years did he ever think that in carrying out what vpw supposedly commissioned him to do would involve having to re-record a class to replace PFAL. And there he found himself, following a bitter legal battle with the evil and carnal trustees - - now having yet another burden thrust upon himself - - a burden to record a class series.
After that happened, subsequent letters were just too painful for me to read anymore. He seemed to be more and more hurt, bitter, burdened. He seemed to be more and more isolated and he seemed (to me) to come across as some type of martyr - - that he alone was carrying out the true ministry of the Word - - isolated, alone, with little resources - - just Barbara and the girls to help him with the enormity of work left to do.
J
I don't know if all the lawsuits got eventually rolled into one but you are correct one was about the class ,and the rights to publish materials, and for Gartmore itself. The Ways attorneys tried after Craig signed all of it away to recover it. It seems that there was this grey area (isn't there always for attorneys) They argued that yes the legal documents said that he had ownership but that was for Europe only. Another words he could not send stuff back into the USA. I think it drug on for about ten years but he eventually won the cases. There may have been some plea offers I don't know I would think so. I do know that the class materials have to be distributed from Scotland not from Maine so there must be some reason for this.
I gave up trying to guess why things with those guys take so long There is no reason I can see but then again I am not involved. Chris has the help available of some of the top former leaders in The Way. Trustees, Region leaders, Cabinet members and yet he seems to want to do it himself makes no sense to me.
I think this is about the 5th time he has junked all the work on his Advanced Class and started over I'm not convinced that it will ever happen at this point (not that I am waiting for it.) He does have I believe two staff people at Word Promotions Cathy C. and another woman whose name escapes me at the moment. For all the business there seems to be little getting done.
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Nottawayfer
Wow! It never amazes me with the lack of consideration in counseling.
My ex and I went to counseling twice while "in". Once was in a "stick" with Ph*l B*nadies. He wasn't any good. He never got to addressing the real problem. It was sad. My ex had a drug problem. He wasn't a daily drug user, but he was a binge user. He would start arguements so he would have an excuse to leave to 2 days and do drugs. I never told Ph*l that was going on because I was a good little co-dependent in hiding my ex's problem. But you would think the spiritual know-it-all would have asked why my ex left and what he did for 2 days at a time......gawd am I glad that is over!
To top it off, when we went back to twi after the "stick" fellowships, we had marriage counseling with the BC, they came over and said "We aren't going ove the complaints." They told us to read "Heir Together in the Grace of Life" from volume 5 and that was it. That was really healing.......I would have rather had a stick drove under my fingernail.
It just shows you that there were no qualified people to counsel individuals or couples. It was a twisted sick problem.
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excathedra
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HCW
You know Exie, I believe that telling details, no matter how lurid, of the experiences like you shared concerning the delivering of the dogs paint mental pictures that are worth thousands and thousands more words than the vast majority of the other stuff we've discussed here.
Reason being that accounts like the doggy thing are the missing link for many many people. They speak directly to the root character of these men. My brother is an actor, a good one, a professional. He has, as well as any with similar talents, an "on stage" persona. Actors all know that you cannot believe what you see of actors when you see them sitting with Jay leno or Dave, or whomever. One must be very estute to carve through to "see" what is ther of THEM when they are "on.
Whatever was said or done, CG was "ON" at the clergy meetings. Whenever he taught or spoke publickly in any way - - ON. They showed us what they wanted us to see in them whenever. This to me accounts for the HUGE disparity when it comes to who VPW was to whom. CG as well. I never saw him when he wasn't "ON," therefore he was to me, as I saw him, which was what he wanted me to see of him then. This makes my view of him skewed in the direction he wanted it to go.
Of course we all do this in life, we all have our masks.
BUT. When the was with VP, sharing what was for the both of them a passion at near the root of their character and Barbie "dared" flow cross purposes to it; BAM in the heart of the moment, "of the abundance of their hearts," they spoke... YOU witnessed it. Your witness can counter the skew effect and bring a view of then back to "true north," so to speak.
What is/was CG doing? Precisely what he did. Dismantling TWI. I'm leaning toward what Sunesis & others have suggested that God had some part in using the whole CG thing to shock some of us into waking up and getting out.
I can't say for sure if I would have stayed longer than I did w/o the events that followed POP, but I do think I was there at the time longer than I perhaps, should have been. Its defintely debatable, although I don't self debate it, because out is out is out. When I think of my time in TWI these days any internal debate I have is in terms of "are you REALLY out or what?"
Being out of TWI is a GOOD thing. I'm sure I can find a scripture to that effect.
Speaking of out, I think the truth should come out, all of it, each person in their own time as to when they feel they can or want to share it.
For me, when I hear of VP and CG becoming stark raving madmen concerning the birth of a dog.... When you tell of your witness of his violating his wife, when others tell of their ugly remarks in the name of counseling... giving advice that any person would agree is pornographic, to say the least; that helps. It helps me personally to factor your witness into my own witness of these men. Especially when I can bear witness of how he/they treated the dogs, one of which you witnessed being born. For brevity's sake, they "treated them LIKE DOGS!"
Your stories fill gaps, answers some questions that mybe I didn't know I had. (Like HOW can you treat a dog you say you LOVE and is such a prized animal like THAT? ??? In the name of training? I'm glad I'M not your DOG. I wouldn't hunt for you either... OBEY you? No way.) More accurately, I overlooked the questions, maybe for the clear lack of coherent answers to them.
I'm thinking my brain filled in the blanks with my own desires of what I felt they should be, or what I WANTED them to be. That's not healthy baby.
Your experiences, not matter who lurid really do and CAN have great value in these forums.... for all of us, please share.
Thanks for what you have already shared BTW.
You know I love you girl, B)
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excathedra
dear doowap
may i call your attention to this post so that you can delete it also
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