Oldies, my friend. You mentioned considering the source.
Of course I considered the source, dude. Also. I didn't say I believed it. I thought I was telling an account of what I saw and heard others say. I'm not backpedaling now either. I know what I heard. I also wanted more confirmation than just those guys saying it, but that didn't come that day during that meeting.
In terms of considering the source....Just who is Karl Kahler? Not to put him down or speak negatively of the guy, I'm speaking in terms of who is he to become an authority? I mean like, from where I'm sitting he's a guy who wrote some stuff about his experiences. I find your post of the exerpt from Karl's book a little verbose; a presumptuous bit of opinionating. Karl is more than entitled to his opinion. I respect him for taking the time and writing his book.
The operative word here, from my POV is chronology. Seeing as Chris was the "patron saint of aloofness" how did Karl, a lowly 14th Corps ever get close enough to the guy, who lived across the ocean, AT THAT TIME, for Chris to "blame" HIM for anything?
Consider THAT source. Read what you posted. THINK about it. Run the numbers.
Consider the motives of the guy who wrote the exposee.
From what I've read of "The Cult That Snapped," I'd say , that from the POV of folks who were not "in the know" it was a good deal of information. Concerning TWI, even among folks who were involved w/it... you were either "in" or NOT in. You could be sitting at lunch right next to someone who was "in the know" and not even know it.
We've all talked before about "the inner circle(s)" of TWI. Karl Kahler, bless him, wasn't in. By the time the 14th Corps rolled around, the doors to being IN were closed and padlocked. I know enough about what was going on when I was there, enough about the roots of how thing were, enough about how TWI functioned in general, in principle, by official procedures, the ways to cut through the infamous red tape.... PLUS, I know at least 98% of ALL of the major-est TWI players to know that the most Karl's book can be is the POV of someone looking from outside in.
I'm not discrediting Karl's book, just not lifiting it to iconic status. Adding a little perspective. I also know how "in I WASN'T."
Using the fact that Karl didn't write about the "murder" plot thing to cast dispersion on anyone who heard what was said - especially with a speculation that Karl was at the meeting at Corps week when it said; frankly Oldiesman, is rediculous. My how "TWI" of you Oldie.
It is just UNREAL to testify: in ANY court of law in the world that because YOU think that someone ELSE may be been in the same place the witness was and they just haven't mentioned in their BOOK a few statements the witness says he heard whe HE WAS THERE.... "I doubt what the witness is saying."
That is SOOOOOO much like the TWI way, dude.
Just say:
A: some words about someone or something that may make sense in and of themselves
B: to people whom you know don't know the facts concerning the words you speak OR the someone or something the OTHER person was speaking of...
you get
C: a cult following from the subset of people who think what YOU said MAY make sense.
That is the classic "How to build a cult formula." A+B=C(ult)
I think its good to talk about this stuff as a sort of personal catharsis.
Calling TWI a web is certainly an accurate way to put it. So many people were so confused by the thing as a whole... I think it is healthy to come to grip with is and get at least some sense of what the haps actually were. I think that individually we all come to a point where enough of the lingering questions in our minds about it are answered that we're actually free of it.
The duplicitous nature of TWI causes stuff to just linger in one's brain. I don't think that its mentally healthy to "just let sleeping dogs (of TWI) lie. I've seen it come out in myself and others... at the worst times, it seems - a dog or two wakes up. Like once during a job interview I was on a much used wayworld expression just "jumped out of my mouth!"
I didn't get the job.
Like, no criticism at all intended or in any way implied, Digi but why use the phrase, "in this day and time" when, "What difference does it make today" would certainly get the same point across???
Perhaps in your world Digi, the usage of TWI terms, etc. make absolutely no difference. To some, however, the terminology triggers "group mind" thinking and behaviors in their lives. I've seen it online many times since way back in the TranceChat days. Seen it here in the cafe too, other places as well - - again, in my own life. I've found it quite necessary to proactively rid myself of as much TWI stuff as possible to really function as a complete member of society.
I spent basically ALL of my adolescence and the first decade or so of my professional and young adult life fighting against the TWI's a cult rap. I used to think that the fact that my utilization of the Biblical concept to "prove all things and hold fast to the good...." along with the undeniable facts that I gleaned a LOT of good from my TWI experience in general. I learned a LOT of great stuff from my personal relationship w/VP. Grew exponentially as a professional during my first few years there to where I've been able to outperform military officers, Duke MBA's, and fly high in fortune 100 companies.... I used to think that the good we did in TWI, the good I got from it, etc, gave credence to the experience as a whole and cast dispersion on the "cult rap."
These discussions, sharings and even the arguments have helped me to change that impression. I can tell you good things about TWI, some of it some little known (I think not many heard of it) TWI accomplishments, opinions of some of VPW's books that would make TWI look like the "God's Chosen Ministry" they say they are. At the same time, I feel that stuff would REALLY hack of those who know by experience just how dark and bad TWI has ALWAYS been. I know some of THAT stuff too.
TWI is and pretty much always was a cult.
God has worked many miracles and accomplished his will working with many people in history who were a LOT worse than Victor Paul Wierwille. I do believe, however, that God gave VP many things, many chances to BECOME "His MOG in this day and time." I think VP actually saw glimpses of and hit some Godly peaks in his life & ministry. Unfortunately, in terms of the cult question, I now believe it is the VALLEYS that define his ministry moreso than the peaks.
Our American culture defines the tenure of our Presidents in terms of their legacy as it relates to their presidency. VP's legacy shouts so loudly we cannot hear the whisperings of his lofty accomplishments.
Chris Geer, Howard Allen, Don Wierwille and Craig Martindale moreso than any others of the major leadership body of TWI are a direct part of VPW's legacy. Walter Cummins grew up under Uncle Harry's wing, moreso than VP's. Bo Reahard, Johnny Townsend, Duke, Ralph. Vince & the other 1st thru 4th Corps guys had more than VP for a central mentoring influence.
The 5th Corps was the first "biggger" Corps group and the 6th Corps was so big they were "out of control" most of the time. They were a wild and roudy bunch. The 7th was the consensus favorite among HQ staffers, especially those oldtimers who'd been around "forever" in the ministry.
The "Y" in the road for TWI was the day Uncle Harry died. Uncle Harry was the only person on the planet who could really influence VP in terms of changing his mind and actually stopping him from his "wild hair up the butt" antics. Ermal Owens had died at the end of the "70's and Harry was, as VP put it, his conscience. There is a Sunday Night Service tape out there somewhere where VP talks about his brother's death, what Harry meant to him and the ministry and how he wondered how he could co on in the ministry without Harry.
Maybe all of what I'm remembering isn't on the tape. Its a little difficult after about 30 years to pick out when VP said things he said many times.
I'm digressing.
With Ermal Owens gone Donnie took over the administrative reigns of the ministry. Donnie had an axe to grind w/ his Dad for making his Mother sell everything in their home for the famous India trip that Donnie felt wasn't worth what they gave to do it. Donnie had this thing of running the ministry HIS way, as opposed to "Dad's." No Harry, no Ermal, Donnie running his own agenda. I'm not sure how much philandering VP did when Howard Allen was the valet & driver. They spent a lot of time then "believing" to get that old mobile home back to HQ once they left. It broke down a lot. It was during the motorcoach days, after fall/winter of 1976 when it was delivered. CG took over as valet around 78/79.
Chris Geer, Howard Allen, Don Wierwille and Craig Martindale, VPW's direct legacy are the major players when it comes to "the fall" of TWI. Let's not forget Rosalie, but she came along later.
Some of those old letters will cut you down a few notches, won't they? Thanks for the reminder. I wasn't too heroic back then, however the memory serves to amplify my petty rebellions into the heroic showdowns they were not. Some did fight the good fight, toe to toe with their adversaries....
I used to think that I was one of the more heroic ones who fought tooth & nail for WHAT was right rather than WHO.... I also found some of my old letters, even read some of my old journal entries. They were a HUGE shock to me in terms of how far "under" TWI I actually was when at the time I thought I had a balanced perspective.
Actually the truth probably was that I wavered back & forth with an internal battle between reality and wayworld.
Amen Satori, that stuff can bring you to your knees in embarrassment.
I often wonder if the more heroic thing was to ease out slowly. Maybe it was the smarter thing than to stay in "fighting for the ship." It was a losing battle.
Even more important to me than the murder remarks that day at Corps week was the statement Chris made about them making it "next to impossible" to turn the ministry back to God.
Maybe that account for why people didn't focus much on the vague "attempt to murder" thing. That mattered less, they guy didn't die, they were saying they were sorry - - AGAIN... Now what was that about "impossible?"... is where my focus was. I was like "What choo talkin' 'bout Willis..."
Oldies, my friend. You mentioned considering the source.
Of course I considered the source, dude. Also. I didn't say I believed it. ...
HCW, I think you are now backpeddling a little.
When I re-read your first post about the attempted murder plot by the trustees, it sure looks like you believe it. And you didn't say then, that you didn't believe it. In fact, you made some statements to the contrary.
And judging from responses by Groucho, Jkboehme, Belle, Wayfer Not, and Markomalley, it was believable enough for them.
Makes one wonder why folks would even repeat silly rumors folks don't even believe themselves? :(
And judging from responses by Groucho, Jkboehme, Belle, Wayfer Not, and Markomalley, it was believable enough for them.
Oldies,
Now read what I said again, real close.
To re-iterate, I said whether or not, crazy or not, perverted or not, evil or not, the effect of what Chris Geer did was ultimately good for all of us who decided to leave in the late 80s. Because had the insanity that happened after POP, etc., not happened, we would have likely stayed in and continued to be sucked in the garbage that is TWI.
I Never said I thought he was truthful or lying or accurate or full of sh1t. I wasn't there.
What I did say was as follows:
Howard, if Chris Geer ever did anything good, this was it.
Whether or not POP was true or not
, "he tore the lid off the sucka." I, being a lowly leaf, didn't hear about POP for a long time after the fact, but when I did, that, along with being shown/ told about the "loyalty letter," were the two key events that sealed my decision to depart.
emphasis added
Please note that I did not express an opinion one way or the other on the validity of the document. Regardless of whether or not it was true or not, it was read and chaos ensued. Those are undeniable facts. Correct? Shoot, Oldies, I was way too low on the food chain to know one way or the other. And I refuse to speculate on that one way or the other.
I then went in about the paranoia and xenophobia that characterized the TWI of the '90s.
None of this was stated, as you can tell if you actually READ what I wrote, as an endorsement of Chris Geer in any way, shape, or form. It was an endorsement of the (likely unintentional) effect of what he did.
So then as long as twi is brought down, you don't care much whether it is with lies, or the truth?
That might be mischaracterizing my post a bit. Let us say that the truth of the situation came out as a result of this, whether or not the specific details of that document were factual or not.
The handwritten comments say the following:
3/22/86
I've read this several times. I believe it to be the
truth. It must be adhered to for the survival of this
ministry. I stand with The Teacher and the truth of
his last words. I love you.
signed: L. Craig Martindale
I read it and all is true. I've felt it and didn't know
what to do. So I will change to do my best for the
man I helped kill.
signed: Howard R. Allen
I've read this and am thankful for the revelation. I
apologize for not having followed my "man of God."
I shall be a doer of the Word more and more as I
renew my commitment to God's Word. Thank you
Chris for having eyes to see and ears to hear.
signed: Donald F. Wierwille
Those signatures on the paper confirm that the BOD believed it to be factual. Or they confirmed that those men were liars. If they were liars, they had no business running (so called) "God's Ministry."
Now, they were appointed by the so-called MOG, Mr. Wierwille, who received 'revelation' as to whom he should appoint.
If Wierwille did receive accurate revelation as to whom he should appoint, then it was ordained of God that TWI should collapse (the ultimate result of his appointment of the, then current, BOD and their reaction/over-reaction to the document. Think: the BOD could have simply denounced it, but they didn't!!!).
If Wierwille did not receive revelation, then he was a fraud. In which case, why in the world should anything he said be trusted?
If Wierwille received inaccurate revelation, then he received it from the Devil or one of his minions. In which case, anything he said would need to be re-examined.
In any of the three cases listed above, it's obvious that TWI had to fall!
…I also found some of my old letters, even read some of my old journal entries. They were a HUGE shock to me in terms of how far "under" TWI I actually was when at the time I thought I had a balanced perspective.
Actually the truth probably was that I wavered back & forth with an internal battle between reality and wayworld…
HCW, to me this is an excellent example of what I have been referring to as the difference between one’s true historical self within the context of one’s general reality orientation as opposed to TWI-induced cultic, synthetic pseudo-self & pseudo-identity. This is obviously not the same as multiple personality disorder. Before leaving the cult, it seems to me that all of we ex-twi have wavered back & forth with an internal mental battle between extant reality and illusory wayworld. As long as the TWI-induced pseudo-self dominated, 'we' remained in TWI.
But typically some event occurs that is sufficient enough to awaken us from our reverie of TWI- induced bedazzlement and transfixion. It is then that our true self begins to once again dominate, & we can begin the long process of somewhat ridding our true selves of the major vestiges of TWI-induced thought reform.
I'm sure that by now a few more people have realized that it is just a waste of time to argue with some people and that we are better off when they are ignored. Some people are going to think and believe what they want to believe no matter what.
Also, just for the record - I believe that the situation took place - I trust HCW and I'm confident that he posts only those things he's sure of and he notes when he is posting opinion or speculation.
Please note that OM has again put his own spin on what people actually said. Do I believe the BOT admitted to attempting murder in this meeting and that HCW among others hear it? Yes.
UNREAL!! UN-FRIGGIN-BELIEVEABLE!!
The BOT (LCM, HA and Don) admittedto attempting murder?? *shaking head* People knew of this and STAYED WITH TWI?? huh.gif
Whether they really literally attempted murder or not it not the issue, imo. Whether I believe that they did or not is not the issue - to my little pea brain, the issue is THEY ADMITTED TO ATTEMPTING MURDER.
I never knew of or heard of CG until coming to WayDale and Gspot, but from your account above it sounds like the guy did us all a favor by calling the BOT on the carpet and publicly at that. I'm in shock.... I don't know what to think..... I'd LIKE to think that if I had known something like that went down prior to my involvement with TWI that I would have run toward the door, but looking at all I put up with for the past ten years, I can't honsetly say that I would have. It would have been easier for my parents to try to convince me to leave, though.
blink.gif I'm just floored....totally speechless....
I repeat that I know squat about CG except what I've learned of him over the past five years. I have little to no resepct for the man and do question his motives and honest, HOWEVER, that is irrelevant to me at this point in time - what's relevant to me is that he was the catalyst for exposing the horrible things that were ACTUALLY going on. If some of it was lies or exaggerated, so be it. We've seen enough here to know that the place is rotten, evil and utterly corrupt and needs no exaggeration.
Whether CG told the truth or not doesn't matter to me - I'm just glad someone did something to expose TWI for what it is and think that many would have continued to be abused, debased, oppressed and isolated from family if it hadn't been for his outrageous behavior and tactics to do the things he did.
How someone would get that I believed that CG or the BOT were telling the truth from that, I have no idea....well, I do but I think it's just wishful thinking.
When I re-read your first post about the attempted murder plot by the trustees, it sure looks like you believe it. And you didn't say then, that you didn't believe it. In fact, you made some statements to the contrary.
And judging from responses by Groucho, Jkboehme, Belle, Wayfer Not, and Markomalley, it was believable enough for them.
Makes one wonder why folks would even repeat silly rumors folks don't even believe themselves? :(
Never mind HCW.
You heard it and don't believe it.
I don't either.
Why is it you can't seem to see that what I AM doing, what I DID do is tell of something I head THEM say.
Just to be PERFECTLY clear. My intent was not to say whether I believed it or not.
Please stop putting words into my mouth.
It is OBVIOUS Oldiesman that you really don't wish to believe the beloved BOT WOULD do such a heinous thing. The point I'm getting across here is that they would stop at NOTHING to get and kepp what they had - - INCLUDING murder, IF they felt they could get away with it.
I believe THAT 100%.
They've done "worse." And I KNOW that.
I'm not arguing w/ you on this murder issue. Pls stop trying to make that comment the focus of what I was talking about. It wasn't.
Please do not post any more letters from CG or any responses from our then-beloved 'leaders' (LCM, DEW, HRA). I get all icky feeling whenever I read comics or soap operas like this.
"Thanks Chris for have ears to see and eyes to hear". And may I add, hands to touch, words to condemn, looks to kill, balls to s uck, brains to open, nose to brown.
My parents were so right so maany maany years ago ...
Please do not post any more letters from CG or any responses from our then-beloved 'leaders' (LCM, DEW, HRA). I get all icky feeling whenever I read comics or soap operas like this.
"Thanks Chris for have ears to see and eyes to hear". And may I add, hands to touch, words to condemn, looks to kill, balls to s uck, brains to open, nose to brown.
ROTFLMAO!!!
My parents were so right so maany maany years ago ...
HCW, to me this is an excellent example of what I have been referring to as the difference between one’s true historical self within the context of one’s general reality orientation as opposed to TWI-induced cultic, synthetic pseudo-self & pseudo-identity.
.....But typically some event occurs that is sufficient enough to awaken us from our reverie of TWI- induced bedazzlement and transfixion. It is then that our true self begins to once again dominate, & we can begin the long process of somewhat ridding our true selves of the major vestiges of TWI-induced thought reform.
Agreed..
That's why I weigh in on conversations like this one.
I worked for a long time on getting back to my historical reality. I had thought that my TWI experience had enhanced the historical me, but found that it did, in fact change me. I can best describe it as having been surrounded by a besieging army and the army having been successful in breaking through some of the "weaker areas in my wall." They lobbed salvos over some of the stronger areas. They just hadn't completely conquered my city - - YET.
In time we would have all been conquered because it was the nature of the TWI beast.
The only difference, categorically, between me, you satori and others who are now out and those who are now in, malcontently in and even faithfully in is that the current TWI faithful opened the gates to their city and welcomed the invaders as friends.
Once the invaders know they have conquered you they stop fighting you. They assimilate you. You become part of them.
I was 15 when I got involved w/ TWI and an excellent student w/ a bright future where I could have written my own ticket "anywhere in life." My Mom made me PROMISE to her verbally that the instant I found that TWI was "wrong." I'd walk. I thought I was keeping more of an emotional distance than I actually did.
I got my confirmation they were wrong the day Howard Allen coldly fired me, with NO notice, gave NO reason, didn't give my wive ANY severence, only gave me the pay I had earned through the rest of the pay period (which wasn't over) and then gave me one pay period's worth of "severence." At the time, I was married with three children, Jasmine, the youngest was two years old.
I had a mortgage, a family, two car payments, not to mention the expense of feeding the kids. HA's parting comment to me was, "Why don't you go to work for The Liar (The St. Marys Evening Leader newspaper) they could use a guy with your talents."
THAT was my "event."
Chris, via his POP, provided an event that led to a series of events for a lot of the rest of us. I knew Chris, was on first name speaking terms with him. But he was, as they say, aloof. Very few people knew him well. Everybody loved Barbie, she was certainly his better half.
I think I see a theme running through this thread.... We were ALL caught in the wave of TWI. It swept us all away to some extent. It effected everybody. I never had any problem with Chris. Every one onf my encounters with him was pleasant. I thought he was a good choice for VP's valet. A handsome, talented, professional guy. I respected him - a lot. He was swept away too just like all of us. I thought his intent behind POP was honorable. I thought it was necessary to drop a bomb on TWI. After that I redoubled my efforts to set things right.
After being burned like we were w/ Athletes of the Spirit, then when they didn't fill a the Dept. coordinator job, it seemed just to keep me out of it, I was on my way out anyway. That battle we're speaking of pulled me back in.
I actually think that this battle against reality thing could stand up as its own dicusion topic.
I actually think that this battle against reality thing could stand up as its own discussion topic.
Yes, I agree, as well as excathedra. That’s why I’ve got two threads ongoing regarding extant reality vs. illusory wayworld : TWI-induced SNAPPING + Wierwille, Jonestown, & Cults.
That the BOT was deceived into believing that what Geer wrote was the truth.
Craig later admitted this, that he was deceived, after 3 years of mega heavy doses of the "patron saint of aloofness".
Oh, so they were not operating "all 9 all the time?" They did not discern spirits properly or weren't operating the "word of wisdom"? Sure, I can allow for that possibility, no problem, Oldies.
In which case, it still means that they (all three of them) were not the men for the job. After all, would God not have protected "his ministry" (barf)?
If they, all three of them, could be so badly deceived by such an obvious deception, it means they were, at best, weak. At worst, it means they allowed themselves to be influenced by "devil spirits." At either end of the spectrum, they clearly were not the men for the job!!!
And if this is the case, then that further reinforces the statement I made:
Now, they were appointed by the so-called MOG, Mr. Wierwille, who received 'revelation' as to whom he should appoint.
If Wierwille did receive accurate revelation as to whom he should appoint, then it was ordained of God that TWI should collapse (the ultimate result of his appointment of the, then current, BOD and their reaction/over-reaction to the document. Think: the BOD could have simply denounced it, but they didn't!!!).
If Wierwille did not receive revelation, then he was a fraud. In which case, why in the world should anything he said be trusted?
If Wierwille received inaccurate revelation, then he received it from the Devil or one of his minions. In which case, anything he said would need to be re-examined.
That can lead to only one possible conclusion, as I stated before:
In any of the three cases listed above, it's obvious that TWI had to fall!
Why is it you can't seem to see that what I AM doing, what I DID do is tell of something I head THEM say.
Just to be PERFECTLY clear. My intent was not to say whether I believed it or not.
Please stop putting words into my mouth.
It is OBVIOUS Oldiesman that you really don't wish to believe the beloved BOT WOULD do such a heinous thing. The point I'm getting across here is that they would stop at NOTHING to get and kepp what they had - - INCLUDING murder, IF they felt they could get away with it.
I believe THAT 100%.
They've done "worse." And I KNOW that.
I'm not arguing w/ you on this murder issue. Pls stop trying to make that comment the focus of what I was talking about. It wasn't.
HCW, you seem to be all over the map with this.
You mention this vicious rumor, and now you say you don't know whether you believe it or not?
You say that the BOT has done worse than attempt to murder someone?
They will stop at nothing and attempt murder, if they can get away with it?
HCW, I think your view on this is nuts.
And you yourself allowed this subject to be focused on, by repeating this "rumor".
And you are correct, I do not believe the BOT would do such a heinous thing.
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HCW
Oldies, my friend. You mentioned considering the source.
Of course I considered the source, dude. Also. I didn't say I believed it. I thought I was telling an account of what I saw and heard others say. I'm not backpedaling now either. I know what I heard. I also wanted more confirmation than just those guys saying it, but that didn't come that day during that meeting.
In terms of considering the source....Just who is Karl Kahler? Not to put him down or speak negatively of the guy, I'm speaking in terms of who is he to become an authority? I mean like, from where I'm sitting he's a guy who wrote some stuff about his experiences. I find your post of the exerpt from Karl's book a little verbose; a presumptuous bit of opinionating. Karl is more than entitled to his opinion. I respect him for taking the time and writing his book.
The operative word here, from my POV is chronology. Seeing as Chris was the "patron saint of aloofness" how did Karl, a lowly 14th Corps ever get close enough to the guy, who lived across the ocean, AT THAT TIME, for Chris to "blame" HIM for anything?
Consider THAT source. Read what you posted. THINK about it. Run the numbers.
Consider the motives of the guy who wrote the exposee.
From what I've read of "The Cult That Snapped," I'd say , that from the POV of folks who were not "in the know" it was a good deal of information. Concerning TWI, even among folks who were involved w/it... you were either "in" or NOT in. You could be sitting at lunch right next to someone who was "in the know" and not even know it.
We've all talked before about "the inner circle(s)" of TWI. Karl Kahler, bless him, wasn't in. By the time the 14th Corps rolled around, the doors to being IN were closed and padlocked. I know enough about what was going on when I was there, enough about the roots of how thing were, enough about how TWI functioned in general, in principle, by official procedures, the ways to cut through the infamous red tape.... PLUS, I know at least 98% of ALL of the major-est TWI players to know that the most Karl's book can be is the POV of someone looking from outside in.
I'm not discrediting Karl's book, just not lifiting it to iconic status. Adding a little perspective. I also know how "in I WASN'T."
Using the fact that Karl didn't write about the "murder" plot thing to cast dispersion on anyone who heard what was said - especially with a speculation that Karl was at the meeting at Corps week when it said; frankly Oldiesman, is rediculous. My how "TWI" of you Oldie.
It is just UNREAL to testify: in ANY court of law in the world that because YOU think that someone ELSE may be been in the same place the witness was and they just haven't mentioned in their BOOK a few statements the witness says he heard whe HE WAS THERE.... "I doubt what the witness is saying."
That is SOOOOOO much like the TWI way, dude.
Just say:
A: some words about someone or something that may make sense in and of themselves
B: to people whom you know don't know the facts concerning the words you speak OR the someone or something the OTHER person was speaking of...
you get
C: a cult following from the subset of people who think what YOU said MAY make sense.
That is the classic "How to build a cult formula." A+B=C(ult)
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HCW
I think its good to talk about this stuff as a sort of personal catharsis.
Calling TWI a web is certainly an accurate way to put it. So many people were so confused by the thing as a whole... I think it is healthy to come to grip with is and get at least some sense of what the haps actually were. I think that individually we all come to a point where enough of the lingering questions in our minds about it are answered that we're actually free of it.
The duplicitous nature of TWI causes stuff to just linger in one's brain. I don't think that its mentally healthy to "just let sleeping dogs (of TWI) lie. I've seen it come out in myself and others... at the worst times, it seems - a dog or two wakes up. Like once during a job interview I was on a much used wayworld expression just "jumped out of my mouth!"
I didn't get the job.
Like, no criticism at all intended or in any way implied, Digi but why use the phrase, "in this day and time" when, "What difference does it make today" would certainly get the same point across???
Perhaps in your world Digi, the usage of TWI terms, etc. make absolutely no difference. To some, however, the terminology triggers "group mind" thinking and behaviors in their lives. I've seen it online many times since way back in the TranceChat days. Seen it here in the cafe too, other places as well - - again, in my own life. I've found it quite necessary to proactively rid myself of as much TWI stuff as possible to really function as a complete member of society.
I spent basically ALL of my adolescence and the first decade or so of my professional and young adult life fighting against the TWI's a cult rap. I used to think that the fact that my utilization of the Biblical concept to "prove all things and hold fast to the good...." along with the undeniable facts that I gleaned a LOT of good from my TWI experience in general. I learned a LOT of great stuff from my personal relationship w/VP. Grew exponentially as a professional during my first few years there to where I've been able to outperform military officers, Duke MBA's, and fly high in fortune 100 companies.... I used to think that the good we did in TWI, the good I got from it, etc, gave credence to the experience as a whole and cast dispersion on the "cult rap."
These discussions, sharings and even the arguments have helped me to change that impression. I can tell you good things about TWI, some of it some little known (I think not many heard of it) TWI accomplishments, opinions of some of VPW's books that would make TWI look like the "God's Chosen Ministry" they say they are. At the same time, I feel that stuff would REALLY hack of those who know by experience just how dark and bad TWI has ALWAYS been. I know some of THAT stuff too.
TWI is and pretty much always was a cult.
God has worked many miracles and accomplished his will working with many people in history who were a LOT worse than Victor Paul Wierwille. I do believe, however, that God gave VP many things, many chances to BECOME "His MOG in this day and time." I think VP actually saw glimpses of and hit some Godly peaks in his life & ministry. Unfortunately, in terms of the cult question, I now believe it is the VALLEYS that define his ministry moreso than the peaks.
Our American culture defines the tenure of our Presidents in terms of their legacy as it relates to their presidency. VP's legacy shouts so loudly we cannot hear the whisperings of his lofty accomplishments.
Chris Geer, Howard Allen, Don Wierwille and Craig Martindale moreso than any others of the major leadership body of TWI are a direct part of VPW's legacy. Walter Cummins grew up under Uncle Harry's wing, moreso than VP's. Bo Reahard, Johnny Townsend, Duke, Ralph. Vince & the other 1st thru 4th Corps guys had more than VP for a central mentoring influence.
The 5th Corps was the first "biggger" Corps group and the 6th Corps was so big they were "out of control" most of the time. They were a wild and roudy bunch. The 7th was the consensus favorite among HQ staffers, especially those oldtimers who'd been around "forever" in the ministry.
The "Y" in the road for TWI was the day Uncle Harry died. Uncle Harry was the only person on the planet who could really influence VP in terms of changing his mind and actually stopping him from his "wild hair up the butt" antics. Ermal Owens had died at the end of the "70's and Harry was, as VP put it, his conscience. There is a Sunday Night Service tape out there somewhere where VP talks about his brother's death, what Harry meant to him and the ministry and how he wondered how he could co on in the ministry without Harry.
Maybe all of what I'm remembering isn't on the tape. Its a little difficult after about 30 years to pick out when VP said things he said many times.
I'm digressing.
With Ermal Owens gone Donnie took over the administrative reigns of the ministry. Donnie had an axe to grind w/ his Dad for making his Mother sell everything in their home for the famous India trip that Donnie felt wasn't worth what they gave to do it. Donnie had this thing of running the ministry HIS way, as opposed to "Dad's." No Harry, no Ermal, Donnie running his own agenda. I'm not sure how much philandering VP did when Howard Allen was the valet & driver. They spent a lot of time then "believing" to get that old mobile home back to HQ once they left. It broke down a lot. It was during the motorcoach days, after fall/winter of 1976 when it was delivered. CG took over as valet around 78/79.
Chris Geer, Howard Allen, Don Wierwille and Craig Martindale, VPW's direct legacy are the major players when it comes to "the fall" of TWI. Let's not forget Rosalie, but she came along later.
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HCW
I used to think that I was one of the more heroic ones who fought tooth & nail for WHAT was right rather than WHO.... I also found some of my old letters, even read some of my old journal entries. They were a HUGE shock to me in terms of how far "under" TWI I actually was when at the time I thought I had a balanced perspective.
Actually the truth probably was that I wavered back & forth with an internal battle between reality and wayworld.
Amen Satori, that stuff can bring you to your knees in embarrassment.
I often wonder if the more heroic thing was to ease out slowly. Maybe it was the smarter thing than to stay in "fighting for the ship." It was a losing battle.
Even more important to me than the murder remarks that day at Corps week was the statement Chris made about them making it "next to impossible" to turn the ministry back to God.
Maybe that account for why people didn't focus much on the vague "attempt to murder" thing. That mattered less, they guy didn't die, they were saying they were sorry - - AGAIN... Now what was that about "impossible?"... is where my focus was. I was like "What choo talkin' 'bout Willis..."
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oldiesman
HCW, I think you are now backpeddling a little.
When I re-read your first post about the attempted murder plot by the trustees, it sure looks like you believe it. And you didn't say then, that you didn't believe it. In fact, you made some statements to the contrary.
And judging from responses by Groucho, Jkboehme, Belle, Wayfer Not, and Markomalley, it was believable enough for them.
Makes one wonder why folks would even repeat silly rumors folks don't even believe themselves? :(
Never mind HCW.
You heard it and don't believe it.
I don't either.
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markomalley
Oldies,
Now read what I said again, real close.
To re-iterate, I said whether or not, crazy or not, perverted or not, evil or not, the effect of what Chris Geer did was ultimately good for all of us who decided to leave in the late 80s. Because had the insanity that happened after POP, etc., not happened, we would have likely stayed in and continued to be sucked in the garbage that is TWI.
I Never said I thought he was truthful or lying or accurate or full of sh1t. I wasn't there.
What I did say was as follows:
emphasis added
Please note that I did not express an opinion one way or the other on the validity of the document. Regardless of whether or not it was true or not, it was read and chaos ensued. Those are undeniable facts. Correct? Shoot, Oldies, I was way too low on the food chain to know one way or the other. And I refuse to speculate on that one way or the other.
I then went in about the paranoia and xenophobia that characterized the TWI of the '90s.
None of this was stated, as you can tell if you actually READ what I wrote, as an endorsement of Chris Geer in any way, shape, or form. It was an endorsement of the (likely unintentional) effect of what he did.
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oldiesman
So then as long as twi is brought down, you don't care much whether it is with lies, or the truth?
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markomalley
That might be mischaracterizing my post a bit. Let us say that the truth of the situation came out as a result of this, whether or not the specific details of that document were factual or not.
The handwritten comments say the following:
Those signatures on the paper confirm that the BOD believed it to be factual. Or they confirmed that those men were liars. If they were liars, they had no business running (so called) "God's Ministry."
Now, they were appointed by the so-called MOG, Mr. Wierwille, who received 'revelation' as to whom he should appoint.
In any of the three cases listed above, it's obvious that TWI had to fall!
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jkboehme
Per HCW:
HCW, to me this is an excellent example of what I have been referring to as the difference between one’s true historical self within the context of one’s general reality orientation as opposed to TWI-induced cultic, synthetic pseudo-self & pseudo-identity. This is obviously not the same as multiple personality disorder. Before leaving the cult, it seems to me that all of we ex-twi have wavered back & forth with an internal mental battle between extant reality and illusory wayworld. As long as the TWI-induced pseudo-self dominated, 'we' remained in TWI.
But typically some event occurs that is sufficient enough to awaken us from our reverie of TWI- induced bedazzlement and transfixion. It is then that our true self begins to once again dominate, & we can begin the long process of somewhat ridding our true selves of the major vestiges of TWI-induced thought reform.
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Belle
I'm sure that by now a few more people have realized that it is just a waste of time to argue with some people and that we are better off when they are ignored. Some people are going to think and believe what they want to believe no matter what.
Also, just for the record - I believe that the situation took place - I trust HCW and I'm confident that he posts only those things he's sure of and he notes when he is posting opinion or speculation.
Please note that OM has again put his own spin on what people actually said. Do I believe the BOT admitted to attempting murder in this meeting and that HCW among others hear it? Yes.
Whether they really literally attempted murder or not it not the issue, imo. Whether I believe that they did or not is not the issue - to my little pea brain, the issue is THEY ADMITTED TO ATTEMPTING MURDER.I repeat that I know squat about CG except what I've learned of him over the past five years. I have little to no resepct for the man and do question his motives and honest, HOWEVER, that is irrelevant to me at this point in time - what's relevant to me is that he was the catalyst for exposing the horrible things that were ACTUALLY going on. If some of it was lies or exaggerated, so be it. We've seen enough here to know that the place is rotten, evil and utterly corrupt and needs no exaggeration.
Whether CG told the truth or not doesn't matter to me - I'm just glad someone did something to expose TWI for what it is and think that many would have continued to be abused, debased, oppressed and isolated from family if it hadn't been for his outrageous behavior and tactics to do the things he did.
How someone would get that I believed that CG or the BOT were telling the truth from that, I have no idea....well, I do but I think it's just wishful thinking.
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HCW
Why is it you can't seem to see that what I AM doing, what I DID do is tell of something I head THEM say.
Just to be PERFECTLY clear. My intent was not to say whether I believed it or not.
Please stop putting words into my mouth.
It is OBVIOUS Oldiesman that you really don't wish to believe the beloved BOT WOULD do such a heinous thing. The point I'm getting across here is that they would stop at NOTHING to get and kepp what they had - - INCLUDING murder, IF they felt they could get away with it.
I believe THAT 100%.
They've done "worse." And I KNOW that.
I'm not arguing w/ you on this murder issue. Pls stop trying to make that comment the focus of what I was talking about. It wasn't.
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tomtuttle1
Please do not post any more letters from CG or any responses from our then-beloved 'leaders' (LCM, DEW, HRA). I get all icky feeling whenever I read comics or soap operas like this.
"Thanks Chris for have ears to see and eyes to hear". And may I add, hands to touch, words to condemn, looks to kill, balls to s uck, brains to open, nose to brown.
My parents were so right so maany maany years ago ...
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markomalley
ROTFLMAO!!!
Truer words have never been spoken!
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HCW
Agreed..
That's why I weigh in on conversations like this one.
I worked for a long time on getting back to my historical reality. I had thought that my TWI experience had enhanced the historical me, but found that it did, in fact change me. I can best describe it as having been surrounded by a besieging army and the army having been successful in breaking through some of the "weaker areas in my wall." They lobbed salvos over some of the stronger areas. They just hadn't completely conquered my city - - YET.
In time we would have all been conquered because it was the nature of the TWI beast.
The only difference, categorically, between me, you satori and others who are now out and those who are now in, malcontently in and even faithfully in is that the current TWI faithful opened the gates to their city and welcomed the invaders as friends.
Once the invaders know they have conquered you they stop fighting you. They assimilate you. You become part of them.
I was 15 when I got involved w/ TWI and an excellent student w/ a bright future where I could have written my own ticket "anywhere in life." My Mom made me PROMISE to her verbally that the instant I found that TWI was "wrong." I'd walk. I thought I was keeping more of an emotional distance than I actually did.
I got my confirmation they were wrong the day Howard Allen coldly fired me, with NO notice, gave NO reason, didn't give my wive ANY severence, only gave me the pay I had earned through the rest of the pay period (which wasn't over) and then gave me one pay period's worth of "severence." At the time, I was married with three children, Jasmine, the youngest was two years old.
I had a mortgage, a family, two car payments, not to mention the expense of feeding the kids. HA's parting comment to me was, "Why don't you go to work for The Liar (The St. Marys Evening Leader newspaper) they could use a guy with your talents."
THAT was my "event."
Chris, via his POP, provided an event that led to a series of events for a lot of the rest of us. I knew Chris, was on first name speaking terms with him. But he was, as they say, aloof. Very few people knew him well. Everybody loved Barbie, she was certainly his better half.
I think I see a theme running through this thread.... We were ALL caught in the wave of TWI. It swept us all away to some extent. It effected everybody. I never had any problem with Chris. Every one onf my encounters with him was pleasant. I thought he was a good choice for VP's valet. A handsome, talented, professional guy. I respected him - a lot. He was swept away too just like all of us. I thought his intent behind POP was honorable. I thought it was necessary to drop a bomb on TWI. After that I redoubled my efforts to set things right.
After being burned like we were w/ Athletes of the Spirit, then when they didn't fill a the Dept. coordinator job, it seemed just to keep me out of it, I was on my way out anyway. That battle we're speaking of pulled me back in.
I actually think that this battle against reality thing could stand up as its own dicusion topic.
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likeaneagle
this all sickens me...given I read POP the first time in 2000. How did they attempt murder..I dont understand??
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HCW
BTW Belle, Thanks for the kind words dear. B)
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excathedra
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hcw
what a rotten thing of them to do to you and yor family! damn i have heard stories but how cruel of those bastards
i hope you are ok now
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oldiesman
Mark, you left out a third possibility:
That the BOT was deceived into believing that what Geer wrote was the truth.
Craig later admitted this, that he was deceived, after 3 years of mega heavy doses of the "patron saint of aloofness".
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Belle
So you believe craiggers who was caught lying, cheating, stealing and raping? Why am I not surprised.
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jkboehme
Per HCW:
Yes, I agree, as well as excathedra. That’s why I’ve got two threads ongoing regarding extant reality vs. illusory wayworld : TWI-induced SNAPPING + Wierwille, Jonestown, & Cults.
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oldiesman
In other words, it's ok for folks to get deceived, as long as twi is brought down in the process...
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Belle
You are refusing to answer my question and instead changing the subject AND taking my words out of context, OM.
I refuse to play in your little games. Re-read my post. It explains that comment very well.
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markomalley
Oh, so they were not operating "all 9 all the time?" They did not discern spirits properly or weren't operating the "word of wisdom"? Sure, I can allow for that possibility, no problem, Oldies.
In which case, it still means that they (all three of them) were not the men for the job. After all, would God not have protected "his ministry" (barf)?
If they, all three of them, could be so badly deceived by such an obvious deception, it means they were, at best, weak. At worst, it means they allowed themselves to be influenced by "devil spirits." At either end of the spectrum, they clearly were not the men for the job!!!
And if this is the case, then that further reinforces the statement I made:
That can lead to only one possible conclusion, as I stated before:
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oldiesman
You mention this vicious rumor, and now you say you don't know whether you believe it or not?
You say that the BOT has done worse than attempt to murder someone?
They will stop at nothing and attempt murder, if they can get away with it?
HCW, I think your view on this is nuts.
And you yourself allowed this subject to be focused on, by repeating this "rumor".
And you are correct, I do not believe the BOT would do such a heinous thing.
Without ample proof.
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