The secretary was looked up and in an instant swore she saw VPW sitting right next to her looking at her. She panicked turned to look at someone else at the table for help, when she looked back she realized she was looking at CG after all, it wasn't VPW.
that's hysterical !!!!
i'm not thankful for chris geer, not for a second. geesus if anything good came from that sh#thead it must be a quirk of nature or something or maybe like sunesis said
what a sadistic evil fooker and he was always nice to me because he had a job working on me for his commander.
knowing wierwille "loved" the guy makes me even more sure what a nutjob wierwille was, like i didn't already know that....
Well Dan, its the only way I can describe it and exactly what it seemed like to me at the time - he was hissing and spitting out his words very softly - but they were terribly hurtful to this woman. As I said, PL and I were almost entranced watching this. I have always thanked God he showed me CG's other side, so when he attempted to take all the corps and believers with him after POP (which he did very successfully in NYC), I was the only one who told everyone - don't follow him. I was ostracized for it by VF and all of the NYC corps, and as word got around, the rest of the NY State corps. Oh well.
I knew Chris and his wife in high school in Rye NY. Both before and after they got into the "word".
I'm saddened by news of her ill health and would love details (facts) of the situation, her address, what they are up to etc. You can reply here or email me "john AT sbcoach.com"
My recollection of this time (and I was on the phone when he first read the POP and attended the clergy meeting he ran at HQ) is that for the first year or so the trustees accepted his "reproof" as accurate. They tried (or said they were trying) to change. But the fact is that the main accusation what that they were not "spiritual" enough. There wasn't anything objective they could do. No wonder they got fed up reversed course.
I remember thinking at the clergy meeting that Geer was running this as if it were a complete power grab - but at the last minute when one would expect him to take over (he would have had most people's support I believe) he did not. Instead, he said "I'm going back to Britain to move the word and you guys stay here and get your $*@! together. If you need me call."
As I recall, he had already gotten claim to Gartmore property and the intellectual property rights for use of way publications in Europe - with the agreement of the trustees who were feeling reproved.
When he left, there was a power vaccum and many folks were wondering who to follow (though geer hadn't specifically asked people to choose). It was at that time that I decided to re-examine why I believed in the bible at all - but that's another story, though for the record I got out before the loyalty letters and other stuff.
Sunesis, I agree with you about geer's yelling. Shortly after getting into the way, he quickly adopted vpw's angry traits and his willingness to yell at people and humiliate them. He never (that I saw) developed the warmth and caring side that vpw could also show. And of course he was loyal and fanatical which is why he rose so fast in way leadership.
As for stuff about murder - as I recall terms like that were often tossed around in an allegorical sense. Powerful words used to inflate what often amounts to a disagreement.
Regarding changing a person's face - remember that when something is seen or heard there are two ends to the string. One is the physical sensation the other is the mind set of the person observing. It's not out of the question that a person who was in grief or trauma or other highly emotional state would look up and see a face of a dead person just because of what's going on in their mind. I wouldn't read too much into it. But of course, the way was founded on reading too much into things.
Sure Oldie, I made it all up. Chris never said anything to the effect of anyone trying to murder anyone else.
It was all just part of my own overly indulged ego and my attempt at a power play to get people at the Cafe to worship ME as the source of all that is true or real.
Thank you for snapping me out of my drug enduced fog.
As for stuff about murder - as I recall terms like that were often tossed around in an allegorical sense. Powerful words used to inflate what often amounts to a disagreement.
You never knew when some version of Wierwille's hysterical hyperbole would bug its way out of some wig-whacked Way Corps's face and into your own. The name tag was their badge. "Reproof" was their nightstick.
Not all Corps did it of course. The hapless majority of the Corps was the easiest target for the real nut jobs temperamentally suited to Wierwille's meshuggah militia (like Geer), and those with temporary insanity (like anybody else on a bad day).
"You're crucifying Christ afresh!" Wish I could remember more of my favorites. I should have written them down. It would make a good thread. Or maybe it has.
At those times I was perpetually suckered into thinking I always had to have a good biblical come back, and if not I had to hold my peace. Oh, not so. "You're a friggin' moron!" would have sufficed just as well, if not better. Better yet, I could have written down a few comebacks and practiced them for just such occasions.
Hmm, let's see... "We all have a place in the body, you must be applying for the position of @sshole!" And so on. But at the time I wasn't trying to be M&A'd. At least, not consciously.
It took a long time for me to realize that a ministry-style "biblical" confrontation is a fraud, inherently weak, which is why it attempts to come from a position of emotional strength, by surprise or intensity, usually both, to get (you) the target off balance, and itself may be easily confronted to turn the tables.
If you think back to some of the most traumatic confrontations you may have encountered, they were nothing but cowardy ambushes, kangaroo courts, artifice, by weak individuals in unwarranted, undeserved "authority." It's what weasels do, the human variety.
Their last resort is always, "You're possessed." So it's often best to lead with that one yourself: "Am I speaking to Reverend Schmuck, or the devil spirits? I'll assume Reverend Schmuck is naked and beaten and tied to a chair in the back of his little brain while the spirits have free reign with his big mouth, because no decent human being would arrange this ridiculous spectacle and call it 'counseling' or 'reproof' or whatever you've planned for today, would they Schmuck?"
What MY pea brain finds astounding is how regularly people in the cafe resort to insulting the source of information they:
1. Don't like.
2. Don't agree with.
3. Didn't origninate the sharing of said info themselves... as in "If I didn't know it, or have heard it from within MY network of knowledgable and reliable sources. I must discredit the speaker of such obvious (to ME, primarily) utter nonsense."
I was simply relating an account of things I heard said with mine own ears and saw with my own eyes as it relates to the topic of "What is Chris Geer Doing?"
Very legit question.
I was one of (and darn proud of it) the "malcontents" on staff at HQ mentioned in Chris' POP paper. In general, not directed to anyone specific, If you think that was NOT the primary question of the moment when he presented POP, you severly underestimate all of us who worked on staff and were in anyway involved in the events subsequent to POP as they relate to CG.
IMO, the FIRST thing most folk thought immediately was, for the sake of communication, that CG was using POP as some sort of coup.
As my3cents spoke of, Chris would have had the immediate and overwhelming support of a vast majority of Clergy, TWI staff and Way Corps to step in as President. As I remember it people kinds thought that was what was happening. It seemed "only natural" that since CG had said, and the trustees confirmed, that VP had entrusted Chris with his "Last Will and Testament for TWI" ... and ... that he had confronted the BOT, revealing to us, the official leadership body of the ministry that the present BOT had turned away from God and led the entire ministry away from God... the natural thing would be for him to take the reins and, at least become some sort of "interim president."
CG flatly declined to do so. Instead he specifically mentioned that he was NOT president and that LCM was and that they (the BOT) should turn their private lives back to God individually and collectively as a leadership body and that we, the Way Corps should do the same. He did this in a "the turned away from God shoe fits all of you/us to varying degrees" you should go to God and repent to the extent that you need to. I felt that in theory, it would work, we could all do our part to right the ship, so to speak. I also think that some folk were hacked off that Chris didn't "take over and lead us."
There WAS a power vaccuum. It was like CG flew in, dropped a bomb and left. The trustees were left standing alone in the center of this huge crater. (Do I have to say, figuratively speaking?) The hole was somewhat filled when they officially installed Johhny T. and Ricardo C. as Trustees.
The original short list of "guys who would be president" when VP retired were the primary ones who would have resisted CG "just taking over." There were rumors from the day after the announcement that Craig was the choice that "some people think that ______________ should have been chosen. " This was... how many years, months before VP died....??? People were of the opinion that different guys were better suited in different categories to be Pres than Craig. They were right.
For example: Walter Cummins was around longer than Craig, he was a much better teacher (although not as dynamic a speaker). A good case could be made for at least five guys, other than Craig. Although VP had said than "any PFAL grad believer could be president..." "everybody knew that there were really only a handful of actual potential candidates. Some folks felt like, "Hey since Craig messed up, let whomever was the runner up get a shot at turning the thing back." CG squelched that noise... Johhny and Ricardo were, IMO, good choices because, other things notwithstanding; of all the guys who could have done the job they were ones whom the fewest number of very influential people would have a problem with.
Some of the guys who could have been pres said they didn't want the job. The rumors abounded in every direction, about every thing related to it. It got to the point where rumormongering became a full time job at HQ.
There was a lot of anarchy around the ministry in dem days leading up to POP. Even moreso after it "POP-ped." It was next to impossible to get WC to agree on anything. Tons of arguing around HQ around doing things "the current (spiritually professional way" or VPW's old ways. Donnie W. was a major proponent of the "Dad has his reasons for doing things the way he did, we've grown beyond that now." In some ways he was right. The HQ staff had grown from nearly 500 when I first moved to HQ in 79 to over 800 when I came back after the Corps in 83.
At first it seemed that POP had united TWI in a way that we hadn't been since the last big event of VPW's tenure. Rock of Ages had become a methodical, "uneventful" regular thing, ... Start getting the stuff out of the warehouse at such & such a time, run the ads, print the materials, design the decorations, do the pre setup setup, the leaders start coming in at these times, stay in these places, blah, blah, blah. The leaders meetings, turning the ministry back to God, became something to rally around. "Being spiritual" gave us common ground to shape people's behavior. The newer, less experienced at HQ staffers came into HQ believing that since GOD, Himself had called them there, all of their ideas about how to do things came directly from HIM!
Everyone "had a psalm, a doctrine" a way to do things that was right in his own eyes. We spent a LOT of time fixing things that some interim corps hotshot or newby staffer just KNEW that they "got the revelation" to "do it that way." They broke a good bit of equipment, wasted a lot of materials, time and man hours redoing it the right way. "How spiritual is that?' "Did you even THINK of praying, asking God how you should proceed BEFORE you decided that doing it the OPPOSITE way the proceedure recommends?" That was a sort of bottom line rallying point. Things got so bad that people who were "lifers" (probably gonna staff on staff "forever") started leaving. The BS became too much for many folks, myself included. I was considering leaving, myself. Many folk who had been around and knew VP's good side and his kind, loving and grass root, "just make it work," get it done on time, efficient ways felt that if we left, who would be there to teach the "heart of HQ" to the newbys. The newbys started treating us like we were dinosaurs, telling us that "heart alone just doesn't get it." They were like, step aside and let me show you how its done.
The whole "let's get back to God, lets be spiritual" thing sorta took the place of VPW's old "chapter & verse" thing from the old days. We used to keep crazy people in line with, "Where does it say THAT in the Word? Can you give me chapter & verse?"
We actually thought things were getting better. We sorta expected Chris to give some great report or maybe anoounce that the ministry had, in fact returned to God and that He had restored His hand of blessing on it. Instead, the gist of his sharing that day at Corps week was;
Not only are things NOT better they are worse than when we started the process. The BOT have proven that they will stop at nothing, go to any length to maintain their positions, even attempting to murder those who stand in their way.
Frankly my dear, I don't give a darn about being a singular source of enlightenment. I'm relating things as I remember them. I can't speak for anyone who didn't speak of anything they know. Actually, I thought the whole "attempted murder" thing was a bit over the top, myself. Things get VERY real when dead bodies turn up. Much more real than most of Wayworld. Nevertheless, I heard what I heard, saw what I saw, believe what I believe.
I've always had a peeve about the way Christians use a lots of words that don't actually say anything. At least anything tangible. I'd agree that people would do that stuff to manipluate others or cover their own weaknesses and lack of whatever.
The whole Chris Geer thing was an enigma to me, personally speaking. I felt that if he was gonna bust the trustees out for their indescretions he should do it "ghetto style." Paul in Corinthians didn't pull any punches, he said, "You guys are having sex with your mothers! You know who you are.... Stop it!" I really didn't like how most everthing CG said publickly led to more questions than he gave answers.
The beginnings of the end is how I saw all that stuff. It was more like HOPING things were better, not actually thinking that things were better.
These conversations now, decades removed from the events, help me to see how much we were lacking in terms of reality in Wayworld then. I felt the whole concept of "we don't want to shut HQ down for a week while we do these leadership meetings" was BOGUS. I was like. Hey, its not like we're contributing to the Gross National Product or something. If we ceased to exist as a company the world would not miss a beat.
That to me made Chris' actions suspect. I felt we needed the rank & file OUTRAGE that would follow people knowing that VPW USED THE CUSTOM MOTORCOACH YOUR ABS BOUGHT AND F@#%ED AND LCM IS NOW FU@&ING EVERY WOMAN HE CAN GET INTO HIS.MOTORCOACH!
EARL BURTON LOST OVER A MILLION DOLLARS OF YOUR ABS TRYING TO "GROW IT" IN THE STOCK MARKET!
SEE THESE GUYS OVER HERE? THEY SAVED THAT FELLOW RIGHT THERE FROM THESE OTHERS WHO WERE GOING TO TRY AND KILL HIM. (IF that indeed did occur.)
And so on and so on.
Whatever there was to know, we should have been made privvy to ALL of it.
Its not about itching ears, its about people having a right to know specifics about the conduct of those they've entrusted their hard earned money to..
The whole thing was suspect to me. I finally wized up some when they kicked me off staff with 4 weeks severence pay and expected me to work two of the weeks on their biggest money making event of the year.
When they fired me, I walked and never looked back.
Gosh Satori, I wish I had been clever enough to think of some of those comebacks. We needed you to write and publish some kind of little pamphelet that would fit in our back pockets on *how to deal with rediculous tyranical behavior in your leadership and snappy comebacks*....The cover could read .....Expecting a confrontation? Is your local leader a bully? Amuse your self and others with your handy dandy dealing with bullies thesaurus. Never again remain tongue tied during a face melting....never resort to stammering in confusion....Satori has all of the subjects covered....just flip alphabetically to the topic that you are being confronted for.....and voila.....logical impacting ammunition to return fire on your attacker ...scriptural back up is provided to add weight and lend authority to your pov. A must have for any twi member attempting to remain in good standing
Never again will YOU have to tuck your tail between your legs and slink away in confusion after your leader has indulged in a scream fest. Never again lose your self esteem or respect :)
Maybe the title could be How to disagree with your leader without being labled stiff necked...
A must have for all of those unexpected confrontations....lol
Too late for us, but maybe there is still a market for current twi believers.
It is funny now....but was soo terrifying when it happened out of the blue....and just crushing when the ultimate declaration was issued...*your poZZZESSSSed*
Sure Oldie, I made it all up. Chris never said anything to the effect of anyone trying to murder anyone else.
HCW,
The fact that you and some others are so quick to believe the trustees (Craig, Don & Howard) actually tried to murder Ricardo Cabellero, with no proof other than hearsay from Geer, and possibly repeated again by others, is pretty astounding.
Consider the source, my friend.
Also, this allegation of attempted murder that was supposedly admitted to by the trustees, in front of 8,000 corps people, never made it into "The Cult That Snapped", and in all the years of Waydale and Greasespot, was never revealed (as far as I know) until now, by you.
Seems awfully strange don't ya think?
All those folks knowing about a murder attempt that the trustees admitted to, and not a peep all these years?
I would think this has to be the Battlestar Galactica of conspiracies of silence?
Or just plain doo doo bull crappa?
Anyway, consider the following:
Chris Geer was the patron saint of aloofness, the supercilious messenger who couldn't be blamed if his message destroyed the ministry. Chris Geer blamed everyone -- the trustees, the clergy, the U.S. leadership, the Way Corps, me -- everyone except the foreign leadership and, of course, himself. Geer's robe is so white I don't know why God doesn't snatch him straight to heaven and seat him at His right hand as an adviser. Geer could tell God a thing or two about how weak and errant those so-called believers down on earth are.
HCW, I always thought of myself as a malcontent, nonconformist, etc. Especially the the last 4-5 years I was in. I imagine others thought the same of me, even then.
Then my wife unearthed a letter I wrote her when I was travelling sometime during those years. It was embarassing, nauseating, purile, spiritually juvenile and any other pejorative not immediately springing to mind.
There was nothing noble about my remaining "in" as long as I did. The only reason I did was I was a weenie. And chicken. so what if I frequently bucked things. My presence was ample proof of my weeniness.
I'm not defending Chris, but LCM HAD to villify him in the worst of ways to salvage his Presidency. There were people left on staff who had sworn his allegience, WC on the field and rank & file believers who knew of his endorsement of Cg and confirmation of Chris' allegations of trustee wrongdoings including the ATTEMPTED MURDER of Ricardo Caballero.
I was up front at Corps week with my camera, as usual,
when CG came in, interrupted the goings on and busted them with...
"You not only have NOT turned back to God, You haven't even attempted to...
AND you've covered up your activities.
You have sabotaged the efforts of the new trustees to set things straight
and even made things WORSE than they were.
There has even been an attempted murder that General Caballero
had to dispatch a military unit to safe the life of the target!..."
The BOT admitted to THAT too, right there,
main stage during Corps week in front of about 8,000 WC. (About 7,950 of whom are now M&A.)
Wow.
An eyewitness account to the bot ADMITTING to
the attempted murder of Ricardo Caballero.
A man SAW them ADMIT to responsibility and complicity.
HCW,
The fact that you and some others are so quick to believe
the trustees (Craig, Don & Howard) actually tried to murder Ricardo Cabellero,
with no proof other than hearsay from Geer,
and possibly repeated again by others, is pretty astounding.
Consider the source, my friend.
Also, this allegation of attempted murder that was supposedly admitted to by the trustees,
in front of 8,000 corps people,
never made it into "The Cult That Snapped",
and in all the years of Waydale and Greasespot,
was never revealed (as far as I know) until now, by you.
Seems awfully strange don't ya think?
All those folks knowing about a murder attempt that the trustees admitted to,
and not a peep all these years?
I would think this has to be the Battlestar Galactica of conspiracies of silence?
Or just plain doo doo bull crappa?
Wow.
A man who wasn't there calls him a liar.
He claims there was "no proof other than hearsay from Geer",
despite the PUBLIC ADMISSION OF GUILT OF THE ACCUSED.
In a court of law, that's admissible as EVIDENCE and may
convict the accused all by itself.
(Selective reading skipped the PUBLIC ADMISSION OF GUILT OF THE ACCUSED.
Then again, selective reading is the modus operandi of some people....)
Then he suggested that-since it wasn't reported in the books of
others who might not have been present- that it didn't happen.
He also said it never came up in Waydale or the GSC.
However,
Pawtucked HIMSELF confirms this has been discussed,
albeit not by the eyewitnesses.
That means that the eyewitnesses TALKED TO OTHERS,
who passed it along.
So,
that means there have been quite a few "peeps" over the years,
as the result of the absence of a Conspiracy of Silence.
So, then,
given that this has come up before,
and we have an eyewitness account,
where then does this objection come from?
Is it the Cylon BaseStar of denial?
Or just plain doo-doo bulldookey?
(Or-just maybe-both?)
The attempted murder of RC has been mentioned many times.
I've never given it much credence since the story was always three or four levels
away from an eye witness.
I will check some info, though. Ralph, i think, talked about it in the waydale forums.
I Think that is very important to talk about Chris Geer and what happened, I am serching who is right and who is wrong with the leadership but all seems to be very "out of control".
During that corpse week When poopoo was read my feeling was that hq was a dagerous place to be at. So i comiteted the unforgivable sin. I got up and left and have never been back.
There was nothing noble about my remaining "in" as long as I did. The only reason I did was I was a weenie. And chicken. so what if I frequently bucked things. My presence was ample proof of my weeniness.
Some of those old letters will cut you down a few notches, won't they? Thanks for the reminder. I wasn't too heroic back then, however the memory serves to amplify my petty rebellions into the heroic showdowns they were not. Some did fight the good fight, toe to toe with their adversaries (name a leader). When I saw the writing on the wall, I mostly just "eased out soft and slow," to quote the great old blues tune "One Way Out." I'd had a gut full of fanaticism. You don't pick fights with drunks, or Wayfers. Neither of them are capable of reason. Or that's what I told myself, and tell myself still...
I am serching who is right and who is wrong with the leadership but all seems to be very "out of control".
Others have said it better Mex, but I wouldnt look too close for any one who is 'right' . Take a step back and look again, they were so caught up in a false and extreme worldview that they were all certifiably insane
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excathedra
i'm not thankful for chris geer, not for a second. geesus if anything good came from that sh#thead it must be a quirk of nature or something or maybe like sunesis said
what a sadistic evil fooker and he was always nice to me because he had a job working on me for his commander.
knowing wierwille "loved" the guy makes me even more sure what a nutjob wierwille was, like i didn't already know that....
what's he doing now ? HA what he's always done
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TheInvisibleDan
Whoa Sunesis, creepy description of CG's snakey side.
(even mediums appear civilized by comparison).
Reminds me of that serpent priest in "Conan the Barbarian".
Danny
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Sunesis
Well Dan, its the only way I can describe it and exactly what it seemed like to me at the time - he was hissing and spitting out his words very softly - but they were terribly hurtful to this woman. As I said, PL and I were almost entranced watching this. I have always thanked God he showed me CG's other side, so when he attempted to take all the corps and believers with him after POP (which he did very successfully in NYC), I was the only one who told everyone - don't follow him. I was ostracized for it by VF and all of the NYC corps, and as word got around, the rest of the NY State corps. Oh well.
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
onion eater
thanks.but i haven't seen ken in 20 years called him once 10 years ago,and chatted but he never retuned the call so f him!
how is mrs onioneater? give her my love
{ hinie}
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My3Cents
I knew Chris and his wife in high school in Rye NY. Both before and after they got into the "word".
I'm saddened by news of her ill health and would love details (facts) of the situation, her address, what they are up to etc. You can reply here or email me "john AT sbcoach.com"
My recollection of this time (and I was on the phone when he first read the POP and attended the clergy meeting he ran at HQ) is that for the first year or so the trustees accepted his "reproof" as accurate. They tried (or said they were trying) to change. But the fact is that the main accusation what that they were not "spiritual" enough. There wasn't anything objective they could do. No wonder they got fed up reversed course.
I remember thinking at the clergy meeting that Geer was running this as if it were a complete power grab - but at the last minute when one would expect him to take over (he would have had most people's support I believe) he did not. Instead, he said "I'm going back to Britain to move the word and you guys stay here and get your $*@! together. If you need me call."
As I recall, he had already gotten claim to Gartmore property and the intellectual property rights for use of way publications in Europe - with the agreement of the trustees who were feeling reproved.
When he left, there was a power vaccum and many folks were wondering who to follow (though geer hadn't specifically asked people to choose). It was at that time that I decided to re-examine why I believed in the bible at all - but that's another story, though for the record I got out before the loyalty letters and other stuff.
Sunesis, I agree with you about geer's yelling. Shortly after getting into the way, he quickly adopted vpw's angry traits and his willingness to yell at people and humiliate them. He never (that I saw) developed the warmth and caring side that vpw could also show. And of course he was loyal and fanatical which is why he rose so fast in way leadership.
As for stuff about murder - as I recall terms like that were often tossed around in an allegorical sense. Powerful words used to inflate what often amounts to a disagreement.
Regarding changing a person's face - remember that when something is seen or heard there are two ends to the string. One is the physical sensation the other is the mind set of the person observing. It's not out of the question that a person who was in grief or trauma or other highly emotional state would look up and see a face of a dead person just because of what's going on in their mind. I wouldn't read too much into it. But of course, the way was founded on reading too much into things.
Anyway that's my 2 cents and one for inflation.
Hope that helps.
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HCW
Sure Oldie, I made it all up. Chris never said anything to the effect of anyone trying to murder anyone else.
It was all just part of my own overly indulged ego and my attempt at a power play to get people at the Cafe to worship ME as the source of all that is true or real.
Thank you for snapping me out of my drug enduced fog.
There now, feel better?
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satori001
Not all Corps did it of course. The hapless majority of the Corps was the easiest target for the real nut jobs temperamentally suited to Wierwille's meshuggah militia (like Geer), and those with temporary insanity (like anybody else on a bad day).
"You're crucifying Christ afresh!" Wish I could remember more of my favorites. I should have written them down. It would make a good thread. Or maybe it has.
At those times I was perpetually suckered into thinking I always had to have a good biblical come back, and if not I had to hold my peace. Oh, not so. "You're a friggin' moron!" would have sufficed just as well, if not better. Better yet, I could have written down a few comebacks and practiced them for just such occasions.
Hmm, let's see... "We all have a place in the body, you must be applying for the position of @sshole!" And so on. But at the time I wasn't trying to be M&A'd. At least, not consciously.
It took a long time for me to realize that a ministry-style "biblical" confrontation is a fraud, inherently weak, which is why it attempts to come from a position of emotional strength, by surprise or intensity, usually both, to get (you) the target off balance, and itself may be easily confronted to turn the tables.
If you think back to some of the most traumatic confrontations you may have encountered, they were nothing but cowardy ambushes, kangaroo courts, artifice, by weak individuals in unwarranted, undeserved "authority." It's what weasels do, the human variety.
Their last resort is always, "You're possessed." So it's often best to lead with that one yourself: "Am I speaking to Reverend Schmuck, or the devil spirits? I'll assume Reverend Schmuck is naked and beaten and tied to a chair in the back of his little brain while the spirits have free reign with his big mouth, because no decent human being would arrange this ridiculous spectacle and call it 'counseling' or 'reproof' or whatever you've planned for today, would they Schmuck?"
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satori001
HCW, all sarcasm is warranted when it comes to oldiesman, but some of us would like to know more, if you know more.
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satori001
Edit, edit, edit again.
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HCW
What MY pea brain finds astounding is how regularly people in the cafe resort to insulting the source of information they:
1. Don't like.
2. Don't agree with.
3. Didn't origninate the sharing of said info themselves... as in "If I didn't know it, or have heard it from within MY network of knowledgable and reliable sources. I must discredit the speaker of such obvious (to ME, primarily) utter nonsense."
........................................................
I was simply relating an account of things I heard said with mine own ears and saw with my own eyes as it relates to the topic of "What is Chris Geer Doing?"
Very legit question.
I was one of (and darn proud of it) the "malcontents" on staff at HQ mentioned in Chris' POP paper. In general, not directed to anyone specific, If you think that was NOT the primary question of the moment when he presented POP, you severly underestimate all of us who worked on staff and were in anyway involved in the events subsequent to POP as they relate to CG.
IMO, the FIRST thing most folk thought immediately was, for the sake of communication, that CG was using POP as some sort of coup.
As my3cents spoke of, Chris would have had the immediate and overwhelming support of a vast majority of Clergy, TWI staff and Way Corps to step in as President. As I remember it people kinds thought that was what was happening. It seemed "only natural" that since CG had said, and the trustees confirmed, that VP had entrusted Chris with his "Last Will and Testament for TWI" ... and ... that he had confronted the BOT, revealing to us, the official leadership body of the ministry that the present BOT had turned away from God and led the entire ministry away from God... the natural thing would be for him to take the reins and, at least become some sort of "interim president."
CG flatly declined to do so. Instead he specifically mentioned that he was NOT president and that LCM was and that they (the BOT) should turn their private lives back to God individually and collectively as a leadership body and that we, the Way Corps should do the same. He did this in a "the turned away from God shoe fits all of you/us to varying degrees" you should go to God and repent to the extent that you need to. I felt that in theory, it would work, we could all do our part to right the ship, so to speak. I also think that some folk were hacked off that Chris didn't "take over and lead us."
There WAS a power vaccuum. It was like CG flew in, dropped a bomb and left. The trustees were left standing alone in the center of this huge crater. (Do I have to say, figuratively speaking?) The hole was somewhat filled when they officially installed Johhny T. and Ricardo C. as Trustees.
The original short list of "guys who would be president" when VP retired were the primary ones who would have resisted CG "just taking over." There were rumors from the day after the announcement that Craig was the choice that "some people think that ______________ should have been chosen. " This was... how many years, months before VP died....??? People were of the opinion that different guys were better suited in different categories to be Pres than Craig. They were right.
For example: Walter Cummins was around longer than Craig, he was a much better teacher (although not as dynamic a speaker). A good case could be made for at least five guys, other than Craig. Although VP had said than "any PFAL grad believer could be president..." "everybody knew that there were really only a handful of actual potential candidates. Some folks felt like, "Hey since Craig messed up, let whomever was the runner up get a shot at turning the thing back." CG squelched that noise... Johhny and Ricardo were, IMO, good choices because, other things notwithstanding; of all the guys who could have done the job they were ones whom the fewest number of very influential people would have a problem with.
Some of the guys who could have been pres said they didn't want the job. The rumors abounded in every direction, about every thing related to it. It got to the point where rumormongering became a full time job at HQ.
There was a lot of anarchy around the ministry in dem days leading up to POP. Even moreso after it "POP-ped." It was next to impossible to get WC to agree on anything. Tons of arguing around HQ around doing things "the current (spiritually professional way" or VPW's old ways. Donnie W. was a major proponent of the "Dad has his reasons for doing things the way he did, we've grown beyond that now." In some ways he was right. The HQ staff had grown from nearly 500 when I first moved to HQ in 79 to over 800 when I came back after the Corps in 83.
At first it seemed that POP had united TWI in a way that we hadn't been since the last big event of VPW's tenure. Rock of Ages had become a methodical, "uneventful" regular thing, ... Start getting the stuff out of the warehouse at such & such a time, run the ads, print the materials, design the decorations, do the pre setup setup, the leaders start coming in at these times, stay in these places, blah, blah, blah. The leaders meetings, turning the ministry back to God, became something to rally around. "Being spiritual" gave us common ground to shape people's behavior. The newer, less experienced at HQ staffers came into HQ believing that since GOD, Himself had called them there, all of their ideas about how to do things came directly from HIM!
Everyone "had a psalm, a doctrine" a way to do things that was right in his own eyes. We spent a LOT of time fixing things that some interim corps hotshot or newby staffer just KNEW that they "got the revelation" to "do it that way." They broke a good bit of equipment, wasted a lot of materials, time and man hours redoing it the right way. "How spiritual is that?' "Did you even THINK of praying, asking God how you should proceed BEFORE you decided that doing it the OPPOSITE way the proceedure recommends?" That was a sort of bottom line rallying point. Things got so bad that people who were "lifers" (probably gonna staff on staff "forever") started leaving. The BS became too much for many folks, myself included. I was considering leaving, myself. Many folk who had been around and knew VP's good side and his kind, loving and grass root, "just make it work," get it done on time, efficient ways felt that if we left, who would be there to teach the "heart of HQ" to the newbys. The newbys started treating us like we were dinosaurs, telling us that "heart alone just doesn't get it." They were like, step aside and let me show you how its done.
The whole "let's get back to God, lets be spiritual" thing sorta took the place of VPW's old "chapter & verse" thing from the old days. We used to keep crazy people in line with, "Where does it say THAT in the Word? Can you give me chapter & verse?"
We actually thought things were getting better. We sorta expected Chris to give some great report or maybe anoounce that the ministry had, in fact returned to God and that He had restored His hand of blessing on it. Instead, the gist of his sharing that day at Corps week was;
Not only are things NOT better they are worse than when we started the process. The BOT have proven that they will stop at nothing, go to any length to maintain their positions, even attempting to murder those who stand in their way.
Frankly my dear, I don't give a darn about being a singular source of enlightenment. I'm relating things as I remember them. I can't speak for anyone who didn't speak of anything they know. Actually, I thought the whole "attempted murder" thing was a bit over the top, myself. Things get VERY real when dead bodies turn up. Much more real than most of Wayworld. Nevertheless, I heard what I heard, saw what I saw, believe what I believe.
Feel FREE, to do the same.
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HCW
Agreed Satori.
I've always had a peeve about the way Christians use a lots of words that don't actually say anything. At least anything tangible. I'd agree that people would do that stuff to manipluate others or cover their own weaknesses and lack of whatever.
The whole Chris Geer thing was an enigma to me, personally speaking. I felt that if he was gonna bust the trustees out for their indescretions he should do it "ghetto style." Paul in Corinthians didn't pull any punches, he said, "You guys are having sex with your mothers! You know who you are.... Stop it!" I really didn't like how most everthing CG said publickly led to more questions than he gave answers.
The beginnings of the end is how I saw all that stuff. It was more like HOPING things were better, not actually thinking that things were better.
These conversations now, decades removed from the events, help me to see how much we were lacking in terms of reality in Wayworld then. I felt the whole concept of "we don't want to shut HQ down for a week while we do these leadership meetings" was BOGUS. I was like. Hey, its not like we're contributing to the Gross National Product or something. If we ceased to exist as a company the world would not miss a beat.
That to me made Chris' actions suspect. I felt we needed the rank & file OUTRAGE that would follow people knowing that VPW USED THE CUSTOM MOTORCOACH YOUR ABS BOUGHT AND F@#%ED AND LCM IS NOW FU@&ING EVERY WOMAN HE CAN GET INTO HIS.MOTORCOACH!
EARL BURTON LOST OVER A MILLION DOLLARS OF YOUR ABS TRYING TO "GROW IT" IN THE STOCK MARKET!
SEE THESE GUYS OVER HERE? THEY SAVED THAT FELLOW RIGHT THERE FROM THESE OTHERS WHO WERE GOING TO TRY AND KILL HIM. (IF that indeed did occur.)
And so on and so on.
Whatever there was to know, we should have been made privvy to ALL of it.
Its not about itching ears, its about people having a right to know specifics about the conduct of those they've entrusted their hard earned money to..
The whole thing was suspect to me. I finally wized up some when they kicked me off staff with 4 weeks severence pay and expected me to work two of the weeks on their biggest money making event of the year.
When they fired me, I walked and never looked back.
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Digitalis
HCW ........... I don't know quite what to say but ..... Thanks for the Post
Digi
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rascal
Gosh Satori, I wish I had been clever enough to think of some of those comebacks. We needed you to write and publish some kind of little pamphelet that would fit in our back pockets on *how to deal with rediculous tyranical behavior in your leadership and snappy comebacks*....The cover could read .....Expecting a confrontation? Is your local leader a bully? Amuse your self and others with your handy dandy dealing with bullies thesaurus. Never again remain tongue tied during a face melting....never resort to stammering in confusion....Satori has all of the subjects covered....just flip alphabetically to the topic that you are being confronted for.....and voila.....logical impacting ammunition to return fire on your attacker ...scriptural back up is provided to add weight and lend authority to your pov. A must have for any twi member attempting to remain in good standing
Never again will YOU have to tuck your tail between your legs and slink away in confusion after your leader has indulged in a scream fest. Never again lose your self esteem or respect :)
Maybe the title could be How to disagree with your leader without being labled stiff necked...
A must have for all of those unexpected confrontations....lol
Too late for us, but maybe there is still a market for current twi believers.
It is funny now....but was soo terrifying when it happened out of the blue....and just crushing when the ultimate declaration was issued...*your poZZZESSSSed*
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oldiesman
HCW,
The fact that you and some others are so quick to believe the trustees (Craig, Don & Howard) actually tried to murder Ricardo Cabellero, with no proof other than hearsay from Geer, and possibly repeated again by others, is pretty astounding.
Consider the source, my friend.
Also, this allegation of attempted murder that was supposedly admitted to by the trustees, in front of 8,000 corps people, never made it into "The Cult That Snapped", and in all the years of Waydale and Greasespot, was never revealed (as far as I know) until now, by you.
Seems awfully strange don't ya think?
All those folks knowing about a murder attempt that the trustees admitted to, and not a peep all these years?
I would think this has to be the Battlestar Galactica of conspiracies of silence?
Or just plain doo doo bull crappa?
Anyway, consider the following:
Karl KahlerThe Cult That Snapped
Page 269
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TheEvan
HCW, I always thought of myself as a malcontent, nonconformist, etc. Especially the the last 4-5 years I was in. I imagine others thought the same of me, even then.
Then my wife unearthed a letter I wrote her when I was travelling sometime during those years. It was embarassing, nauseating, purile, spiritually juvenile and any other pejorative not immediately springing to mind.
There was nothing noble about my remaining "in" as long as I did. The only reason I did was I was a weenie. And chicken. so what if I frequently bucked things. My presence was ample proof of my weeniness.
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WordWolf
Wow.
An eyewitness account to the bot ADMITTING to
the attempted murder of Ricardo Caballero.
A man SAW them ADMIT to responsibility and complicity.
Wow.
A man who wasn't there calls him a liar.
He claims there was "no proof other than hearsay from Geer",
despite the PUBLIC ADMISSION OF GUILT OF THE ACCUSED.
In a court of law, that's admissible as EVIDENCE and may
convict the accused all by itself.
(Selective reading skipped the PUBLIC ADMISSION OF GUILT OF THE ACCUSED.
Then again, selective reading is the modus operandi of some people....)
Then he suggested that-since it wasn't reported in the books of
others who might not have been present- that it didn't happen.
He also said it never came up in Waydale or the GSC.
However,
Pawtucked HIMSELF confirms this has been discussed,
albeit not by the eyewitnesses.
That means that the eyewitnesses TALKED TO OTHERS,
who passed it along.
So,
that means there have been quite a few "peeps" over the years,
as the result of the absence of a Conspiracy of Silence.
So, then,
given that this has come up before,
and we have an eyewitness account,
where then does this objection come from?
Is it the Cylon BaseStar of denial?
Or just plain doo-doo bulldookey?
(Or-just maybe-both?)
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
s001
to bad all those comebacks are too true
but what a laugh i had
thanks
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themex
I Think that is very important to talk about Chris Geer and what happened, I am serching who is right and who is wrong with the leadership but all seems to be very "out of control".
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oldiesman
Not just one man.
Don't forget the other 7,999 who heard this. :o
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irisheyes
1 more vote for one that had ears open. They said it oldies.
And you was not there. I know that for sure.
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excathedra
my following comment is meant with no disrespect toward anyone here:
ANYTHING chris geer said, i personally would take as words of a mad man
this is based only on my experience with him
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irisheyes
Ex Very true.
During that corpse week When poopoo was read my feeling was that hq was a dagerous place to be at. So i comiteted the unforgivable sin. I got up and left and have never been back.
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satori001
Not that I listen.
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mstar1
Others have said it better Mex, but I wouldnt look too close for any one who is 'right' . Take a step back and look again, they were so caught up in a false and extreme worldview that they were all certifiably insane
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