The anti-cult movement (ACM) attempts to raise public consciousness of what they feel are the dangers of cult membership. They define a cult quite differently from the CCM. They view a cult as a religious or other group that uses deceptive recruitment techniques to lure new members into the organization, and then subjects them to sophisticated mind-control techniques to reduce their ability to think and act individually. This process is called brainwashing, which the ACM believes produces members who are almost in a trance or zombie state.
Gee, I didn't know that. :o
Bet they can teach Jkboehme a thing or two. ;)
Tongues: They share some beliefs with the Pentecostals. They accept that when a person is saved, through an oral confession of faith, God responds by granting to the new Christian all of the 9 gifts described in 1 Corinthians 12:4-12. These are: speaking in tongues, being able to interpret others who are speaking in tongues, prophecy, discerning of spirits, wisdom, ability to perform miracles, knowledge, faith, ability to heal others. Once saved, the Christian cannot lose their salvation. "The only visible and audible proof that a man has been born again and filled with the gift from the Holy Spirit is 'always' that he speaks in a tongue or tongues." 10 This would imply that Christians who do not speak in tongues are not actually saved. Virtually the entire 33 million membership of the Southern Baptist Convention, United Methodist Church, Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, and Presbyterian Church (USA) are not saved because speaking in tongues is rarely seen on those denominations.
"The only visible and audible proof that a man has been born again and filled with the gift from the Holy Spirit is 'always' that he speaks in a tongue or tongues."
10 This would imply that Christians who do not speak in tongues are not actually saved.
IS ABSOLUTELY TRUE!!!! Ask Allan. ;)
Even my ex said that we couldn't know for sure that my parents were born again because they didn't speak in tongues. He didn't learn that from the RC church!
Wordwolf, the speaking in tongues is referenced to "10", a Waydale archives quote. You may be right about the Way Urban myths .
The quote is "The only visible and audible proof that a man has been born again and filled with the gift from the Holy Spirit is 'always' that he speaks in a tongue or tongues."
The text of the web site page goes on to say - "This would imply that Christians who do not speak in tongues are not actually saved".
Page 31 of RTHST, 7th Edition reads - "No one speaks in tongues until after he is born again and the holy spirit is permanently within".
PFAL, 1st Edition, Chap. 25 -
"The gift from the Holy Spirit was given on Pentecost and is readily available in our times as it was to the apostles for we all belong to the Church of God. The gift comes with an individual's acceptance of Christ as his Lord according to Rom. 10:9. The book of Acts and the Pauline Epistles are constantly making reference to the power of the holy spirit or else demonstrating the power of which those men of God knew they had"......"We have the gift, holy spirit, but the manifestations must be operated by us: and this most believers know nothing about".
"Speaking in tongues - bringing forth a message from God in a language unknown to the speaking which will edify the spirit. Speaking in tongues is to be used in private prayer life unless the message is interpreted in a believers meeting".
The overwhelming message of PFAL, whether it be right or not, was that many believers - those already born again of God's spirit - have no idea of the "power of God" available to them. That is, they're already "sons of God", "born again" and "saved" in that they are redeemed through belief in Christ.
Two types of "receiving" were defined by usages of the words dechomia and lambano. One was to receive inherently, to have it, as in holy spirit dwelling within. "Going to heaven and all hell can't stop you", as quoted in PFAL. The second receiving was to receive into manifestation, that point where a person, by believing, brings into physical evidence the inner holy spirit. PFAL presented that in the last 3 sessions of teaching as to speak in tongues, a basic fundamental operation of the holy spirit within, available to every believer.
Chapter 19 deals with The New Birth:
"The moment a person confesses with his mouth Jesus as Lord that person is converted, saved, born again. ... to the point that he says "Jesus is Lord of my life and I know God raised Him from the dead," he is born again of God's spirit. That person has instantly changed lords: his now on the way to heaven and all hell can't stop him from going because he is a son of God having Christ in him. He has eternal life. He is no longer a natural man because he has received the spirit from God". ... The man of body and soul can so easily believe and receive eternal life, which is the greatest gift that God has ever given to man at any place, at any time".
PFAL makes a couple other points. One, that "spirit" isn't directly perceivable by a person's other 5 senses. However, a person by taking "believing" action upon what they can learn, can manifest or "operate" holy spirit. At those times, whether when speaking in tongues or any of the other 8 manifestations taught, it becomes "evidenced" in the physical world. The spirit is the engine that propels the car, so to speak.
Just as a person has the ability to speak, they may never speak a word. But when they decide to speak, words come out as they use the ability they have. A person may have eyes but keep their eyes closed and never see anything. When they decide to open their eyes and focus, they use their eyes and see.
I don't ever remember hearing VPW imply that a Christian that didn't speak in tongues wasn't "saved". Rather that a Christian who didn't wasn't operating the power of God, the "abundant life" of John 10:10 in this "administration" to it's fullest potential.
I don't doubt people may have come up with that, in some esoteric logic, even more esoteric than PFAL itself, but I'd have to question that being based on any of the PFAL based teachings I heard. Second, third hand maybe. "This is what VPW really meant", maybe. "Well, they're born again and saved, but they aren't really WALKING in power", yes.
VPW hammered this point about speaking in tongues being the only "real" proof of the inner presence of holy spirit pretty hard, based on the teaching of 1 Cor. 12. It was more a thread of logic IMO. That...if holy spirit can't be perceived by the 5 senses directly....then how are you going to know it's really there, and further if certain things of God rely on that holy spirit being "operated" how will you receive them if you don't operate them?
This is pretty long, so I won't post my thoughts here on how that shakes out, right or wrong. I just wanted to try and clear the air on what I myself learned way back when.
Actually, I thought the introduction to the list of groups in which the above link is located was interesting, and should draw some interesting comments...
The main faith groups which have been unjustly targeted by the ACM, CCM and oppressive governments are listed below. Please note that these are well-established new religious movements and not dangerous, doomsday cults.
The Brethren
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (the Mormons)
Christian Science
Church of Scientology
Eckankar
Falun Gong/Falun Dafa
The Family, formerly called The Children of God
The "Garbage Eaters": common derogatory name for The Brethren
I never heard anyone in TWI teach that if you don't speak in tongues you are not saved - or that you must speak in tongues to be saved. Not once.
It was taught that tongues was proof (evidence) of the spirit within. And that you couldn't REALLY say that Jesus was Lord except by the spirit (which TWI errantly interpreted to mean speaking in tongues). However, that teaching presumed that the tongues we did in TWI was genuine, which many have testified that they copied, memorized, or faked.
There is a big difference in the 2 statements below:
"If you don't speak in tongues you arent saved"
If you can't speak in tongues you arent saved"
Don't implies willingness or instruction. Can't implies lack of ability ie no spirit, no tongues.
If tongues is indeed a manifestation of the spirit and only those who have spirit can do it, then statement 2 above would be correct in a sense. Those without spirit CANT speaks in tongues - the are unable.
It's all really moot though as far as I am concerned. It seems like any Joe Blow can be taught to to what we did in TWI and call it "tongues". So, at the end of the class, after much instruction and probably several months of observation in felllowships and meetings, Joe Blow moves his mouth, his lips, and "speaks in tongues" while those running the class rejoice at another soul saved being saved via PFAL.
Yet in light of the testimony of many, the hearers in TWI couldn't tell the genuine from fakers anyway.
I woudn't assume that anyone is saved by hearing them "speak in tongues" . It is an extremely poor test of salvation.
Maybe I'm a bitter,old ,unbelieving curmudgeon, but I don't think the gobbledyguck we all spoke in the way was proof of anything except our willingness to follow directions. Certainly not 'proof' of being saved.
Recieving the holy spirit today- Some questions answered pg 249
Q: Is the holy spirit available to every believer today?
A: Yes, indeed, Is the gift of salvation available today? This is not a foolish question. If the gift from the HolySpirit which is pneuma hagion,holy spirit,power from on high,is not available,then neither is the gift of salvation. when God gives a gift,it is here to stay until the Church Age is finished. Hos gifts are available to and for all believers who desire to receive and know how to receive.
Q:Is the holy spirit for particular or special denominations?
No. the spirit is never for denominations as such. The holy spirit is for believers. They may come from any denomination People from at least thirty denominations have received the pneuma hagion under my teaching,but not one has received because of their denominational affiliations, They all received because they believed.
Clearly from these quotes VPW seperates Salvation and holy spirit and it's manifestation and that one or the other could be received. Nor did he imply that other denominations were not saved or that they could not receive the gift. As is generally true people don't do their homework when writing these articles there are some other errors also in their article.
Happy Thanksgiving! I hope everyone has a great day!
An interesting thing that's in that article is the distinction being given about how cults are defined. I don't follow cult/anti-cult information or activities, so this may be well known to others.
Overall, the web page points out a lot of good information. I trhink the saved/speak in tongues part is vague, but there's a lot more there. They got the Way Tree description right, although I wonder if the Wayfers still use that metaphor. Other points are clearly stated and although I was involved years ago, it seems clear in many places. They don't argue how good or bad the Way is or way, but collect some facts and figures and lay them out. Interesting page Belle, thanks!
The overwhelming message of PFAL, whether it be right or not, was that many believers - those already born again of God's spirit - have no idea of the "power of God" available to them. That is, they're already "sons of God", "born again" and "saved" in that they are redeemed through belief in Christ.
This is what I remember of pfal as well. Wasn't it in session 5 (or something) that the student became *born again* if they weren't already??
And then the *manifestation* wasn't until session 12 a couple of weeks later. Sit was all about being more powerful spiritually rather than being the key to salvation.
Of course -- I haven't got a clue what craiggers taught in his version. For all I know he could have taught what the acm group is saying.
Of course -- I haven't got a clue what craiggers taught in his version. For all I know he could have taught what the acm group is saying.
PERZACKLY!!! Remember that craiggers took everything to an extreme; got rid of as much of vee pee's influences as he could and taught some pretty off the wall things....
For example: Page 27 - Segment 5 of craiggers class....
How may books are in the Bible?
56 - according to craiggers - This way he can utilize his "spirituality of numbers"
Page 29 - Segmet 6
More fuel for worshipping the Bible:
"God's Word is as much God as God is God."
The Word of God is our ONLY standard of believing and action.
With other denominations - it's leaders and then tradition and then maybe the Word of God.
RC religion has been around longer than the Word of God.
The 2nd part are quotes from my notes during the class.
Segment 10 - page 48
"The focal point of creation - makind.
The focal point of man's allegiance was to be loving and fellowshipping with that great God, our heavely Father, the Creator of the heavens and earth.
You can not fellowship with that great God if you don't speak in tongues.
last sentence from my notes
page 98 - Segment 18
Regarding 1 Corinthians 2:14 and "natural man" -
"It can also apply to people that are born again that don't obey, don't hear, don't do anything with the Word."
According to craiggers - if you aren't deemed "worthy" according to TWI then you are considered "natural man" - no better than an animal - just body & soul.
Page 110 - Segment 20
Regarding Eph 2:18,19
"We're in the family when we get born again. We're in the household when we live according to the stadards of the house."
Page 112 - Segment 20
"To make Jesus lord in your life starts with obeying the Word. And the Word says that speaking in tongues is how we build up ourselves, which is how we keep ourselves i the love of God and keep ourselves from falling."
Page 113
"Speaking in tongues is the proof that you're born again."
"It bears witness that you're a son of God, a joint heir; it gurarantees that you're born again, you have eternal life."
Page 112, 114, 115, 116
No man can TRULY say he is born again - no man can TRULY say Jesus is Lord except by speaking in tongues.
Page 116
"Speaking in tongues is a necessity if you want to please God."
"If you want to walk in the household, if you wat to keep yourself in the love of God and keep yourself from falling, you need to be strengthened spiritually - your body, mind and spirit have to be built up to walk in alignment and harmony."
Page 117
One purpose of speaking in tongues is to declare Jesus is lord in your life - 1 Cor 12:3
And don't even get me started on the Eve - Lesbian teaching.....
Craig didn't always teach the same things vee pee taught - and furthermore - he didn't always write it down. Because we had to listen to the STS teachings over and over, teach on them in fellowship and read about them in the way rag - these lessons were pounded into our brains.
There were also those famous "read between the lines" teachings and admonitions that we received.
Perhaps we should clarify in our discussions whether we are referring to TWIt 1 or TWIt II or TWIt III teachings.
Perhaps we should clarify in our discussions whether we are referring to TWIt 1 or TWIt II or TWIt III teachings.
Belle makes a good point here which is why I asked Templelady what year it was and who taught her class. She has not responded yet though. Just in case my memory has lapsed I think I will pull the tape of sesion 12 of VP's class and see if the quote is there.
Direct Quote
"If you can't speak in tongues you aren't saved"
Belle do you have a page reference for that Quote from your syllabus that you could provide for us please?
There is a big difference in the 2 statements below:
"If you don't speak in tongues you arent saved"
If you can't speak in tongues you arent saved"
Don't implies willingness or instruction. Can't implies lack of ability ie no spirit, no tongues.
Good point.
True, we were taught that SIT was only the proof in the senses realm of being saved. being saved was very explicitly dealt with when Romans 10:9,10 was heavly emphasized.
1. There is a difference between not being able to speak in tongues ..... we were taught not able because you weren't saved.
and
2. Not being instructed enough to speak in tongues ..... we were taught saved but not had complete instruction in speaking in tongues
This is my understanding from PFAL ...... although later in the years, if a TWI leader deemed you had significant instruction to SIT and you still did not show outward manifestation of SIT then you would revert back to the number 1 category above regardless if you were saved or not, which of course GOD would be the expert on knowing who was filled with holy spirit and who wasn't regardless if they were nervous or unsure of SIT.
In Craiggers foundational class SIT snuck up on the students and hit you like a rock ....... I noticed it was easier for students of VPWs PFAL to SIT than Craiggers WAP to SIT.
I still wonder if all my SITs was Godly or not ........ was I liking a sounding brass ..... I don't know.. I wonder how many thought that at the time they were trying to learn vs years later or after they had already SITs.
Maybe I'm a bitter,old ,unbelieving curmudgeon, but I don't think the gobbledyguck we all spoke in the way was proof of anything except our willingness to follow directions. Certainly not 'proof' of being saved.
I understand where you're coming from. However I heard something that changed my mind about that.
I was in a large crowd of people at an advance. A person I did not know was called on for manifestations. She spoke in German, I think it was high German but I'm not sure. I studied German in college and was good at writing english translations, but not so good at speaking it. But I did understand it - sort of - when it was spoken both from my schooling and from relatives who sometimes spoke it at home.
I was so stunned that I didn't remember what the english interpretation was, and I only barely understood some of the German. What I understood fell in the realm of what one would expect to hear in manifestations...it was not German gobbeldygook.
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oldiesman
Bet they can teach Jkboehme a thing or two. ;)
That was NEVER implied. Liar liar pants on fire.
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Belle
Maybe in YOUR TWI, OM, but not in mine!
IS ABSOLUTELY TRUE!!!! Ask Allan. ;)
Even my ex said that we couldn't know for sure that my parents were born again because they didn't speak in tongues. He didn't learn that from the RC church!
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themex
I agree that the only "visible and audible" proof of "holy spirit" born againt is speaking in tongues. If you do not do that OL you should.
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oldiesman
Oh Belle, you know I'm right on this.
TWI taught that one couldn't really "know for sure" that they are saved unless they SIT. It is the proof in the senses realm;
NOT that they ARE NOT saved.
As you know, VP taught in PFAL that folks can be born again, and not SIT.
Remember the account of Apollos getting the folks born again (Acts 19:1-6), but since they didn't know anything about SIT, they didn't SIT.
Then Paul came in and layed hands, taught about SIT, and they SIT?
VP taught that in PFAL.
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dmiller
Oldies is right about the sit, regardless of what allan thinks! ;)
Acm (any relation to lcm??)
also said;
Since they said allegations, that's all the more to it there is, eh? :D
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Morgan
That is so cool!!!! They posted a link to the cafe and listed Karl's book!!!!!
"Oh Belle, you know I'm right on this.
TWI taught that one couldn't really "know for sure" that they are saved unless they SIT. It is the proof in the senses realm;
NOT that they ARE NOT saved.
As you know, VP taught in PFAL that folks can be born again, and not SIT."
Yeah, but what was taught to large audiences and what was taught to smaller ones were often not quite the same.
Oh right. . . . I forgot, if Oldies didn't experience it, it never happened and is just a lie. <_<
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WordWolf
Actually,
I've read their stuff and jkboehme's stuff.
I don't agree with every single line of every single thing
either has said.
However,
Jkboehme's got a higher batting average in my eyes.
That is in SPITE of using the technical terms and
not BECAUSE of them.
(Yes, I can keep up with him when I want to.)
I find he documents and cites more specifically
and more accurately than they do,
and makes it more clear when he's opining
versus, say paraphrasing or summarizing.
That may have never been implied to you.
I don't remember being taught it myself.
HOWEVER,
not only were there many places you and I were not,
there were different timeframes where different things
where taught in different places.
If I were to try to predict places where this sort of
thing was overheard,
I'd guess that one place and time was the exponential
growth in 1969-1971 when vpw used hippies
(Christian raw recruits with lots of heart)
to market his product.
When I hear them reminisce about what that time was
like, I hear comments that sound a lot like that.
So, it is possible that WAS taught OUTRIGHT,
then and there, and other places.
It's also possible someone misunderstood something,
jumped to a conclusion, and this has become an
urban myth about twi.
(I know a few of those.)
Not having heard the original quote or citation,
I can't say for sure. However, I can say they
didn't DOCUMENT their claim,
which is sloppy.
Finally, I HAVE heard DIFFERENT stuff that was
stupider than that,
which WAS taught at twi.
My personal favourite was lcm giving a reason
why you might not want to "speak the Word"
to someone,
based on a mangling of a verse,
and the resultant misunderstanding vpw taught.
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templelady
12th session PFAL
My class
Direct Quote
"If you can't speak in tongues you aren't saved"
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socks
Wordwolf, the speaking in tongues is referenced to "10", a Waydale archives quote. You may be right about the Way Urban myths .
The quote is "The only visible and audible proof that a man has been born again and filled with the gift from the Holy Spirit is 'always' that he speaks in a tongue or tongues."
The text of the web site page goes on to say - "This would imply that Christians who do not speak in tongues are not actually saved".
Page 31 of RTHST, 7th Edition reads - "No one speaks in tongues until after he is born again and the holy spirit is permanently within".
PFAL, 1st Edition, Chap. 25 -
"The gift from the Holy Spirit was given on Pentecost and is readily available in our times as it was to the apostles for we all belong to the Church of God. The gift comes with an individual's acceptance of Christ as his Lord according to Rom. 10:9. The book of Acts and the Pauline Epistles are constantly making reference to the power of the holy spirit or else demonstrating the power of which those men of God knew they had"......"We have the gift, holy spirit, but the manifestations must be operated by us: and this most believers know nothing about".
"Speaking in tongues - bringing forth a message from God in a language unknown to the speaking which will edify the spirit. Speaking in tongues is to be used in private prayer life unless the message is interpreted in a believers meeting".
The overwhelming message of PFAL, whether it be right or not, was that many believers - those already born again of God's spirit - have no idea of the "power of God" available to them. That is, they're already "sons of God", "born again" and "saved" in that they are redeemed through belief in Christ.
Two types of "receiving" were defined by usages of the words dechomia and lambano. One was to receive inherently, to have it, as in holy spirit dwelling within. "Going to heaven and all hell can't stop you", as quoted in PFAL. The second receiving was to receive into manifestation, that point where a person, by believing, brings into physical evidence the inner holy spirit. PFAL presented that in the last 3 sessions of teaching as to speak in tongues, a basic fundamental operation of the holy spirit within, available to every believer.
Chapter 19 deals with The New Birth:
"The moment a person confesses with his mouth Jesus as Lord that person is converted, saved, born again. ... to the point that he says "Jesus is Lord of my life and I know God raised Him from the dead," he is born again of God's spirit. That person has instantly changed lords: his now on the way to heaven and all hell can't stop him from going because he is a son of God having Christ in him. He has eternal life. He is no longer a natural man because he has received the spirit from God". ... The man of body and soul can so easily believe and receive eternal life, which is the greatest gift that God has ever given to man at any place, at any time".
PFAL makes a couple other points. One, that "spirit" isn't directly perceivable by a person's other 5 senses. However, a person by taking "believing" action upon what they can learn, can manifest or "operate" holy spirit. At those times, whether when speaking in tongues or any of the other 8 manifestations taught, it becomes "evidenced" in the physical world. The spirit is the engine that propels the car, so to speak.
Just as a person has the ability to speak, they may never speak a word. But when they decide to speak, words come out as they use the ability they have. A person may have eyes but keep their eyes closed and never see anything. When they decide to open their eyes and focus, they use their eyes and see.
I don't ever remember hearing VPW imply that a Christian that didn't speak in tongues wasn't "saved". Rather that a Christian who didn't wasn't operating the power of God, the "abundant life" of John 10:10 in this "administration" to it's fullest potential.
I don't doubt people may have come up with that, in some esoteric logic, even more esoteric than PFAL itself, but I'd have to question that being based on any of the PFAL based teachings I heard. Second, third hand maybe. "This is what VPW really meant", maybe. "Well, they're born again and saved, but they aren't really WALKING in power", yes.
VPW hammered this point about speaking in tongues being the only "real" proof of the inner presence of holy spirit pretty hard, based on the teaching of 1 Cor. 12. It was more a thread of logic IMO. That...if holy spirit can't be perceived by the 5 senses directly....then how are you going to know it's really there, and further if certain things of God rely on that holy spirit being "operated" how will you receive them if you don't operate them?
This is pretty long, so I won't post my thoughts here on how that shakes out, right or wrong. I just wanted to try and clear the air on what I myself learned way back when.
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Lifted Up
Actually, I thought the introduction to the list of groups in which the above link is located was interesting, and should draw some interesting comments...
The main faith groups which have been unjustly targeted by the ACM, CCM and oppressive governments are listed below. Please note that these are well-established new religious movements and not dangerous, doomsday cults.
The Brethren
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (the Mormons)
Christian Science
Church of Scientology
Eckankar
Falun Gong/Falun Dafa
The Family, formerly called The Children of God
The "Garbage Eaters": common derogatory name for The Brethren
Hare Krishna - ISKCON
Jehovah's Witnesses
Neo-Paganism
New Age
Santeria
Satanism
Unification Church
Vodun (Voodoo)
The Way
Wicca
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WordWolf
'templelady':
"12th session PFAL
My class
Direct Quote
"If you can't speak in tongues you aren't saved" "
==========
Well, we have an eyewitness to at least ONE instance
where it happened.
Perhaps they refer to what she experienced,
perhaps they refer to another experience,
perhaps they just jumped to a conclusion.
Tough to say.
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Goey
I never heard anyone in TWI teach that if you don't speak in tongues you are not saved - or that you must speak in tongues to be saved. Not once.
It was taught that tongues was proof (evidence) of the spirit within. And that you couldn't REALLY say that Jesus was Lord except by the spirit (which TWI errantly interpreted to mean speaking in tongues). However, that teaching presumed that the tongues we did in TWI was genuine, which many have testified that they copied, memorized, or faked.
There is a big difference in the 2 statements below:
Don't implies willingness or instruction. Can't implies lack of ability ie no spirit, no tongues.
If tongues is indeed a manifestation of the spirit and only those who have spirit can do it, then statement 2 above would be correct in a sense. Those without spirit CANT speaks in tongues - the are unable.
It's all really moot though as far as I am concerned. It seems like any Joe Blow can be taught to to what we did in TWI and call it "tongues". So, at the end of the class, after much instruction and probably several months of observation in felllowships and meetings, Joe Blow moves his mouth, his lips, and "speaks in tongues" while those running the class rejoice at another soul saved being saved via PFAL.
Yet in light of the testimony of many, the hearers in TWI couldn't tell the genuine from fakers anyway.
I woudn't assume that anyone is saved by hearing them "speak in tongues" . It is an extremely poor test of salvation.
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hiway29
Maybe I'm a bitter,old ,unbelieving curmudgeon, but I don't think the gobbledyguck we all spoke in the way was proof of anything except our willingness to follow directions. Certainly not 'proof' of being saved.
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WhiteDove
I'm curious What year and who's class did you take Templelady?
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WhiteDove
Recieving the holy spirit today- Some questions answered pg 249
Q: Is the holy spirit available to every believer today?
A: Yes, indeed, Is the gift of salvation available today? This is not a foolish question. If the gift from the HolySpirit which is pneuma hagion,holy spirit,power from on high,is not available,then neither is the gift of salvation. when God gives a gift,it is here to stay until the Church Age is finished. Hos gifts are available to and for all believers who desire to receive and know how to receive.
Q:Is the holy spirit for particular or special denominations?
No. the spirit is never for denominations as such. The holy spirit is for believers. They may come from any denomination People from at least thirty denominations have received the pneuma hagion under my teaching,but not one has received because of their denominational affiliations, They all received because they believed.
Clearly from these quotes VPW seperates Salvation and holy spirit and it's manifestation and that one or the other could be received. Nor did he imply that other denominations were not saved or that they could not receive the gift. As is generally true people don't do their homework when writing these articles there are some other errors also in their article.
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socks
Happy Thanksgiving! I hope everyone has a great day!
An interesting thing that's in that article is the distinction being given about how cults are defined. I don't follow cult/anti-cult information or activities, so this may be well known to others.
Overall, the web page points out a lot of good information. I trhink the saved/speak in tongues part is vague, but there's a lot more there. They got the Way Tree description right, although I wonder if the Wayfers still use that metaphor. Other points are clearly stated and although I was involved years ago, it seems clear in many places. They don't argue how good or bad the Way is or way, but collect some facts and figures and lay them out. Interesting page Belle, thanks!
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dmiller
This is what I remember of pfal as well. Wasn't it in session 5 (or something) that the student became *born again* if they weren't already??
And then the *manifestation* wasn't until session 12 a couple of weeks later. Sit was all about being more powerful spiritually rather than being the key to salvation.
Of course -- I haven't got a clue what craiggers taught in his version. For all I know he could have taught what the acm group is saying.
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Belle
PERZACKLY!!! Remember that craiggers took everything to an extreme; got rid of as much of vee pee's influences as he could and taught some pretty off the wall things....
For example: Page 27 - Segment 5 of craiggers class....
How may books are in the Bible?
56 - according to craiggers - This way he can utilize his "spirituality of numbers"
Page 29 - Segmet 6
More fuel for worshipping the Bible:
"God's Word is as much God as God is God."
The Word of God is our ONLY standard of believing and action.
With other denominations - it's leaders and then tradition and then maybe the Word of God.
RC religion has been around longer than the Word of God.
The 2nd part are quotes from my notes during the class.
Segment 10 - page 48
"The focal point of creation - makind.
The focal point of man's allegiance was to be loving and fellowshipping with that great God, our heavely Father, the Creator of the heavens and earth.
You can not fellowship with that great God if you don't speak in tongues.
last sentence from my notes
page 98 - Segment 18
Regarding 1 Corinthians 2:14 and "natural man" -
"It can also apply to people that are born again that don't obey, don't hear, don't do anything with the Word."
According to craiggers - if you aren't deemed "worthy" according to TWI then you are considered "natural man" - no better than an animal - just body & soul.
Page 110 - Segment 20
Regarding Eph 2:18,19
"We're in the family when we get born again. We're in the household when we live according to the stadards of the house."
Page 112 - Segment 20
"To make Jesus lord in your life starts with obeying the Word. And the Word says that speaking in tongues is how we build up ourselves, which is how we keep ourselves i the love of God and keep ourselves from falling."
Page 113
"Speaking in tongues is the proof that you're born again."
"It bears witness that you're a son of God, a joint heir; it gurarantees that you're born again, you have eternal life."
Page 112, 114, 115, 116
No man can TRULY say he is born again - no man can TRULY say Jesus is Lord except by speaking in tongues.
Page 116
"Speaking in tongues is a necessity if you want to please God."
"If you want to walk in the household, if you wat to keep yourself in the love of God and keep yourself from falling, you need to be strengthened spiritually - your body, mind and spirit have to be built up to walk in alignment and harmony."
Page 117
One purpose of speaking in tongues is to declare Jesus is lord in your life - 1 Cor 12:3
And don't even get me started on the Eve - Lesbian teaching.....
Craig didn't always teach the same things vee pee taught - and furthermore - he didn't always write it down. Because we had to listen to the STS teachings over and over, teach on them in fellowship and read about them in the way rag - these lessons were pounded into our brains.
There were also those famous "read between the lines" teachings and admonitions that we received.
Perhaps we should clarify in our discussions whether we are referring to TWIt 1 or TWIt II or TWIt III teachings.
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washingtonweather
I heard it for years!!!
Furthermore if you so much as thought about the trinity, you couldn't have been saved either..at least not unitl you renounced the trinity.
I don't think it matters to Oldies -- as someone said If he did not experience it ..it could not be in the realm of existence
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WhiteDove
Belle makes a good point here which is why I asked Templelady what year it was and who taught her class. She has not responded yet though. Just in case my memory has lapsed I think I will pull the tape of sesion 12 of VP's class and see if the quote is there.
Direct Quote
"If you can't speak in tongues you aren't saved"
Belle do you have a page reference for that Quote from your syllabus that you could provide for us please?
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Lifted Up
Good point.
True, we were taught that SIT was only the proof in the senses realm of being saved. being saved was very explicitly dealt with when Romans 10:9,10 was heavly emphasized.
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Digitalis
1. There is a difference between not being able to speak in tongues ..... we were taught not able because you weren't saved.
and
2. Not being instructed enough to speak in tongues ..... we were taught saved but not had complete instruction in speaking in tongues
This is my understanding from PFAL ...... although later in the years, if a TWI leader deemed you had significant instruction to SIT and you still did not show outward manifestation of SIT then you would revert back to the number 1 category above regardless if you were saved or not, which of course GOD would be the expert on knowing who was filled with holy spirit and who wasn't regardless if they were nervous or unsure of SIT.
In Craiggers foundational class SIT snuck up on the students and hit you like a rock ....... I noticed it was easier for students of VPWs PFAL to SIT than Craiggers WAP to SIT.
I still wonder if all my SITs was Godly or not ........ was I liking a sounding brass ..... I don't know.. I wonder how many thought that at the time they were trying to learn vs years later or after they had already SITs.
Digi
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krys
I understand where you're coming from. However I heard something that changed my mind about that.
I was in a large crowd of people at an advance. A person I did not know was called on for manifestations. She spoke in German, I think it was high German but I'm not sure. I studied German in college and was good at writing english translations, but not so good at speaking it. But I did understand it - sort of - when it was spoken both from my schooling and from relatives who sometimes spoke it at home.
I was so stunned that I didn't remember what the english interpretation was, and I only barely understood some of the German. What I understood fell in the realm of what one would expect to hear in manifestations...it was not German gobbeldygook.
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dmiller
Oh yea -- I forgot there was a third one past craigger's. :huh:
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