the non doctrinal doctrine

[CM]

is it a doctrine that saves?

is it a belief in one certain thing that gives life?

it's in the lord's hands to save

is it not?

5Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

[Belle]

I'm glad you're still posting, CM! It can get pretty heated around here, but overall I think it's worth it.

Very interesting perspective on those verses. I like to think that God isn't as much of a hard-@ss as people make him out to be. I think that so many churches and religions try to control people by saying "God wants you to do...." - "God requires......"

People spend too much time straining gnats and swallowing camels. Just today I was telling my co-workers about how excited I am to be sending out CHRISTMAS cards. We started talking about Christmas and the stars and how TWI taught about the zodiac and such. After a time, my co-worker looked at me and asked, "So.....how does this help me in any way? How does it enrich my relationship with God or Jesus?"

"Perzactly!" and that's why I'm so excited about going to the singing Christmas tree service and seeing nativity sets with just THREE wise men and enjoying myself this year.

So anyway, God is God and he does what he does. We see through the glass darkly and there is so much that we don't know and won't know till he wants us to. In the meantime, I just concentrate on loving God and loving others.

Thanks, CM!

[CM]

aahhh, you're a sweetheart Belle,

all can be considered without enslavement

and let what lives live and grow

so yes Love is the weapon of choice

if you want to call it a weapon

or a certain freedom to live and give

You are welcome

[CM]

being thankful is a good non doctrinal doctrine

a state of being i suppose

[dmiller]

so yes Love is the weapon of choice

if you want to call it a weapon

or a certain freedom to live and give

(and....)

being thankful is a good non doctrinal doctrine

Can't go wrong following non-doctrinal doctrine like this!! :)

It cuts down on the argu...... (ahem!!) *discussions* too! :lol:

[CM]

Thanks dmiller,

Mercy was what this little quiet thread started with.

And has grown with just a few posts..

And well..every man shall have praise of God..

[Belle]

Clay,

I watched on the History Channel this past week-end a documentary called "Books Banned from the Bible" or something like that. It was a very interesting and thought-provoking documentary to say the least. One particular aspect I think you would find comforting and perhaps worth looking into was regarding Peter's "apocalypse" book verses John's which was included in the Bible as "Revelation":

According to the documentary film, the apocalypse was very popular among Christians during the 2nd century. They believed "it was spiritually inspired" by GOD Almighty to Saint Peter. They actually had doubts about "John's apocalypse", which is known today as "the Book of Revelation". Interestingly also, this apocalypse says that after GOD Almighty fills both Heaven and Hell with inhabitants from Mankind, and the people of Hell get tortured for a long period of time, the People of Heaven will ask and Pray to GOD Almighty to Forgive the people of Hell. GOD Almighty will then eventually listen to their Prayers, and will order the "Gates and the Steel Bars of Hell" to be opened and allow the people of Hell to enter Heaven for Good.

Now doesn't that seem to fit more in line with "every knee shall bow" and a God who "would have all men be saved and come unto the knowledge of him"? But to include something like that would have perhaps given people license to disobey the leadership of the time, whereas with John's you can still use fear motivation to keep people under your thumb and doing the things you want them to do. It's easier that way - they obey you out of fear of going to hell for eternity.

BTW, this quote comes from a website that's obviously slanted toward Islam, however, the quote above is exactly as I recollect it from the documentary and was quicker to just copy over. I was trying to find more information on the History channel about the documentary, but couldn't, so this will have to do for now. :) Who Authored the Bible?

[CM]

yeah..obeying people out of fear..seen this a few times huh..

John's revelations are clearly misshandled cuz it's not in the light of love

there are plenty of writings to read that help one seeking

noone is going to hell for eternity

and i don't think hell is what many say it is

just a lot of imagination and guessing

and like you said-used against people to

get them to do what they say

Peter and John actually compliment each others writings imo

and yes there are many writings that haven't been considered yet..

Edited December 1, 2005 by CM

[CM]

don't mean to leave anyone in suspense

but i think revelations is the twinkling of an eye

the melting of this present world

i certainly can't explain everything in it but i can see a bit of it

so not to get into a debate i'll leave it at that

and let myself grow some more in it

can't do a doctrine on a non-doctrinal thread

or anywhere else for that matter anymore for me

just letting peace rule and enjoying rest from

all that darn mind tangling doctrinal intense efforts

[Too Gray Now]

So, Clay - let me rephrase the topic, slightly.

Do we need long lasting doctrine? Is there such a thing?

Exo 16:19 And Moses said, Let no man leave of it (manna) till the morning.

Exo 16:20 Notwithstanding they hearkened not unto Moses; but some of them left of it until the morning, and it bred worms, and stank: and Moses was wroth with them.

YUMMMY!! MANNA WORMS!!!

If Jesus is the bread of life from heaven, then this whole manna thing is a revealing of - or regarding - Christ. Maybe there is a deeper spiritual thumbprint on these verses than one might think.

We should consider going out and gathering our own manna. As a matter of fact, I highly suggest it. This is not a job for our pastors to go manna gathering FOR us, and then deliver what THEY had left over... to us.

What if we gathered our bread via the spirit of God? "Every man according to his eating". The portion control is .... according to the eating. If we are babes in this kind of faith, then we must drink only pre-made milk - like that which Paul served - the milk of the scriptures.... just long enough for us to get our legs under ourselves and get out and go manna hunting, OURSELVES. I do not think that man was destined to suck the tit of the scriptures as his ONLY source for strength and doctrine.

Now think about history. The early church "got blessed" with the Christ and the holy spirit - and they have kept THAT "manna" in their house for almost 2,000 years. Some prohibit their members from even going out and finding and gathering their own.

... and then people wonder why they get weakend after being served stale, stinky, doctrine.

Man shall not live by bread alone (the historical Christ and his scriptures) - but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God (that which the comforter gives you, each day).

Have we considered this concept to be even remotely possible - or have we been chased out of the manna patch by the scare-crow tactics of the literalists?

This concept has implications when one begins the task of destroying doctrinal strong holds.

Hey, if you don't like my ideas - do ya wanna go fishin'???

Lord only knows, I got enough worms from my Way days for everybody to go!!

So what is my point?

DOCTRINE??? WE DON"T NEED NO STEENKING DOCTRINE!!!

Edited December 1, 2005 by Too Gray Now

[Belle]

DOCTRINE??? WE DON"T NEED ANY STEENKING DOCTRINE!!

WORMS EITHER!!!!

[CM]

why yes TGN, live by every word...

not some doctrinal stance that stops the spirit

live...live...live....

shoot the guy never shuts up, so....

here a little and there a little

i set my sail and catch the wind as it comes

a small sail it is and a big wind...

doctrines are part of the journey for many

and then to free oneself into a greater understanding

releases the wisdom that can only come from God

who is there with us....always

and scriptures are not doctrine anymore

but words that come to mind as they are understood

and letting it come into play as it should

as it was designed to be the living breathing life giving....

howbeit that much is added to that wisdom

cuz it's in the here and now, not ancient writings

and it ain't you anymore but the father

his thoughts that are higher that live in you