I know TWI used to be more active in several other countries, as it also used to be more active in the U.S. I remember hearing about fellowships from fellow 8th corps who came from Germany and Austrailia, as well as from the 9th corps Brit whose nice warm hat I lost on LEAD in 1979. More recently, I have communicated with a Russian who remembered a TWI fellowship...and that does not include my old first corps roomie who had connections there...BTW Jardinero, if you are around, found anything yet?
The expansion of VPW ministry was in its peack by the end of his life, when the fog years began in the US stand only 1 of each 5, in some International Outreach countrys stand 50% or more. By 1995 for the last Rock the place was overflowing, around 12,000 believers from the US and from the International Outreach, but many other stay ah home, from that Rock from Mexico travel arround 10 people, but in Mexico were at least 100 more.
In one period of time there were not only Way Corps in the US they establish Way Corps program in Latin America and in Europe. Gatmore was a root local.
I do not kow how many Way Corps still standing, but in many Country Coordinators with out been Way Corps have limbs with more than 200 people.
By 1995 for the last Rock the place was overflowing, around 12,000 believersfrom the US and from the International Outreach
12K in total worldwide? That's TEN YEARS AGO and rather paltry compared to the height of TWI and especially so now that "membership" is considered around 4,000 in the US. There are states that don't even have a TWIt presence. I imagine that the "international" presence of TWI is even less.
I think, too, that if a US soldier is sent overseas that they automatically include that country in their list of "international" countries. Given the honest reporting by TWI, I would suspect that to be the case. If they truly were international and had much to brag about they would publish the numbers of their followers and the locations where they have fellowships. They don't and they will not divulge that information even when asked. I know. I've asked.
By 1995 for the last Rock the place was overflowing, around 12,000 believers from the US and from the International Outreach, but many other stay ah home, from that Rock from Mexico travel arround 10 people, but in Mexico were at least 100 more.
I was at that 1995 "gathering" and saying it had 12,000 and was overflowing is like saying the million man march had a million people in it.
It was not "overflowing" and I doubt they had half that number.
TWI's been bleeding people left and right ever since. A large percentage being sent packing intentionaly by TWI themselves.
The point is that fore the year 1995 The Way have very much more people than 12000 believers Just in the US with out counting the International Outreach. Lets say that 4000 people fore today stand counting is okey, kids and all. But in the other 29 international countries you can have more than that. We never are going to get the real number but since the fog years every body that is against The Way said that it is destroy and that nowbody stay in, but that is not true.
That takes me to an other cuestion, if the Way is Wrong, Who is wright? Crhis Geer? John Lynn? Walter Cummings? John Shroyder & Waynee Clapp? Who is the real lider of God´s people of our day an time?
I am not mad, I just need and answer that means something to me :P in the contex of what I been living.
The Church the body of Christ needs elders, leadership. And that is in Ephesians. And The Way Corps since the first century church is the best that the body has have.
HI themex! I don't know where you're at really, what's your location, generally? I know nothing about the ministry's activities in Mexico these last 15 years or so. It sounds like you're looking for a place where your heart is at home. I can understand that.
I don't know how close you are to other churches, or schools or how accessible they would be to you, but you might consider looking for some friendly faces in places where Christians gather. I don't worry myself about what we disagree on as much as I try to let what we agree on draw us together.
Pastoring is different than teaching. Pastors of churches will certainly teach but the emphasis of someone working in a church as a pastor is going to be to help the people that come there, personally, one to one, face to face. I think a lot of chuches both big and small benefit from men and women who feel they have that calling and who have some training in doing it. You might consider checking some out, and give it some time.
If you feel a void because there's no one to teach fellowships like they did in the Way fellowships, consider this - in the U.S. fellowships I know a lot of us got together and sat around teaching and hearing the same things over and over again. It's good to hear things from the bible that encourage us, yes. It's also good to look out to your community and see what you can do with what you know, what you can do that God is saying in the bible that we should do - help the weak, the sick. The elderly, those without any help at hand. Those people may never see any God but the one you bring to them and show them, by doing for them what God would want done. God heals - bring healing. God loves - bring love. God encourages - encourage. God listens - listen. God forgives. For people that have no forgiveness even for themselves, you may be the one to display the sacrifice of Jesus to them. Who knows? It's kind of exciting, and a little goes a long way.
I wanted to add themex - my take would be, don't try to reshuffle the Way deck to see who you should "follow" now.
Of the names you mentioned, I'd say "none of the above". Why? Because you're just heading down the same path as before - looking for the man of God of our day and time. It would seem they come and go with the days.
The only figure I know of that fills that spot in the Church is Jesus Christ. Whether hes' a figure of our imagination or real, it's Him. Putting a man in that place, or allowing one to take it, is bad for business. It's like an employee sitting in the Bosses chair, sending his secretary out for coffee and using his phone. Sooner or later the Boss is going to show up.
It sounds unrealistic to choose The Lord, but it's not. I've found that any legitmate pastor of God's people will be too humbled by what they're charged with to place too much emphasis on themselves and their spot. Anyone honest enough to look inside themselves and see the truth will be careful in how they handle the things of God, most importantly His people. Their fellowship with you won't be based on getting you to follow them, or accepting it. My opinion, for what it's worth.
I don´t have one. As a matter of fact I have never before in my life question the man of God subject. I lerned so much from The Way, from PFAL and the other materials than never consider that they have a doctrinal problem an that TWI is base over lies. :huh:
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WordWolf
The organization calling itself "The Way International"
(also known as "the Way Ministry")
claims its founding was in 1942.
The old radio programs of vpw supposedly started
that year -Vesper Chimes, Chimes Hour Youth Caravan.
"The Way" was incorporated OFFICIALLY in 1957.
vpw was an Evangelical and Reformed minister
until 1957.
That was the year he and "Uncle Harry" bought out
the other brothers, and set up the corporation.
Since it was supposedly a non-profit corporation
(churches don't pay taxes) and doing so that
year meant they didn't have to pay any taxes
on the farm.
The classes didn't begin until 1953, when vpw
sat through BG Leonard's class twice,
then began teaching BG Leonard's class and
calling it "HIS" class-PFAL.
The ministry didn't really experience growth
until 1969, when vpw "hijacked the hippies"-
tricking legitimate Christian youths into
becoming his sales force for pfal,
producing explosive growth in New York
and California.
So, what year it started in depends on
where you're counting from.
Counting from 1942, to say the least,
is deceptive.
========
At the moment,
they're claiming people in a lot of other
countries. That includes military temporarily
stationed in a country, and other ways to
claim you have people in a country when it's
really one or two people in an entire country.
Notice they never give how MANY people they
have-either WORLDWIDE or per country.
At the moment, twi, for all practical purposes,
exists ONLY in the United States.
For that matter, their existence in the
United States is a tiny, almost insignificant
thing. There are perhaps 2000 adults currently
in the entire organization. There are some
LOCAL churches that are much bigger than
that in ONE location, and most that have
multiple "branches" in a city can equal or
best that for their city alone.
So, TWI is "small potatoes"-
except for the people whose lives they ruin.
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Lifted Up
I know TWI used to be more active in several other countries, as it also used to be more active in the U.S. I remember hearing about fellowships from fellow 8th corps who came from Germany and Austrailia, as well as from the 9th corps Brit whose nice warm hat I lost on LEAD in 1979. More recently, I have communicated with a Russian who remembered a TWI fellowship...and that does not include my old first corps roomie who had connections there...BTW Jardinero, if you are around, found anything yet?
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jardinero
Hi Lifted Up:
Actually, I did just today :)
Please check your private topics.
J.
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Lifted Up
Don't remember knowing when the official name was changed to "The Way International" from "the Way, inc." ...anyone know?
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themex
The expansion of VPW ministry was in its peack by the end of his life, when the fog years began in the US stand only 1 of each 5, in some International Outreach countrys stand 50% or more. By 1995 for the last Rock the place was overflowing, around 12,000 believers from the US and from the International Outreach, but many other stay ah home, from that Rock from Mexico travel arround 10 people, but in Mexico were at least 100 more.
In one period of time there were not only Way Corps in the US they establish Way Corps program in Latin America and in Europe. Gatmore was a root local.
I do not kow how many Way Corps still standing, but in many Country Coordinators with out been Way Corps have limbs with more than 200 people.
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Oakspear
Even if your figure of 12,000 is correct, it would hardly be overflowing, when you consider that at its peak the ROA hosted over 20,000 people.
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Belle
12K in total worldwide? That's TEN YEARS AGO and rather paltry compared to the height of TWI and especially so now that "membership" is considered around 4,000 in the US. There are states that don't even have a TWIt presence. I imagine that the "international" presence of TWI is even less.
I think, too, that if a US soldier is sent overseas that they automatically include that country in their list of "international" countries. Given the honest reporting by TWI, I would suspect that to be the case. If they truly were international and had much to brag about they would publish the numbers of their followers and the locations where they have fellowships. They don't and they will not divulge that information even when asked. I know. I've asked.
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GT
I was at that 1995 "gathering" and saying it had 12,000 and was overflowing is like saying the million man march had a million people in it.
It was not "overflowing" and I doubt they had half that number.
TWI's been bleeding people left and right ever since. A large percentage being sent packing intentionaly by TWI themselves.
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themex
The point is that fore the year 1995 The Way have very much more people than 12000 believers Just in the US with out counting the International Outreach. Lets say that 4000 people fore today stand counting is okey, kids and all. But in the other 29 international countries you can have more than that. We never are going to get the real number but since the fog years every body that is against The Way said that it is destroy and that nowbody stay in, but that is not true.
That takes me to an other cuestion, if the Way is Wrong, Who is wright? Crhis Geer? John Lynn? Walter Cummings? John Shroyder & Waynee Clapp? Who is the real lider of God´s people of our day an time?
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WordWolf
The real leader of God's people for our day and time?
That's easy.
It's JESUS CHRIST.
Jesus Christ is THE man of God for our day and time.
Jesus Christ is THE man of God for ALL TIME.
Jesus Christ is THE spiritual leader.
Jesus Christ is THE spiritual head-
and anyone else claiming to be the spiritual head
other than Jesus is a thief or a robber.
And SHAME on you for forgetting that long enough to post this question.
(For those of you non-Christians out there,
I wasn't speaking for or about you-just Christians.)
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themex
One God -Christ in me and Christ in you! I know that, but be more real please. To whom we should follow? Who is going to teach us the Word?
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WordWolf
I could not be MORE "real".
"Who is going to teach us the Word"?
To hear JESUS CHRIST tell it
(THE man of God for our day and time),
our teacher is "THE COMFORTER", aka Holy Spirit.
He shall teach us "all things".
(John 14:26.)
If he is THE teacher,
then anyone else is a footnote, a secondary consideration at the most.
BTW, how is my answer "off-topic"
but your question is not?
The topic is about twi and the US vs "international countries".
That makes your question about who's right "off topic."
YOU started.
I answered YOUR question and you announced answering YOUR
question was "off topic."
Just because you didn't LIKE my answer didn't mean it was "off-topic"
nor WRONG.
========
Your entire line of questioning is based on misconceptions.
So, the questions are "wrong".
Who's in charge of the Christians? CHRIST.
Who teaches us? THE HOLY SPIRIT.
Do you need all the verses supporting this?
As to "who should we follow",
my answer, depending on EXACTLY what you mean is either
A) JESUS CHRIST
or
B) NO ONE.
This "following" business is what got us in trouble in the first place.
I believe it was Confucius who said that a wise man does not concern
himself with allegiances
(loyalty, who to "follow"),
but when he sees right, he ranges himself alongside it.
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markomalley
I pray that you will be able to find an answer that will be satisfying.
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themex
I am not mad, I just need and answer that means something to me :P in the contex of what I been living.
The Church the body of Christ needs elders, leadership. And that is in Ephesians. And The Way Corps since the first century church is the best that the body has have.
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WordWolf
Themex:
"I am not mad, I just need an answer that means something to me :P in the context of what I been living."
Oh.
That's different.
"The Church- the body of Christ- needs elders, leadership. That is in Ephesians."
The church needs leaders. I agree with you and Ephesians.
" And The Way Corps since the first century church is the best that the body has had."
Ok, now, THIS is where the problem is.
You believe this is true because you have been TOLD this is true.
Where do I start explaining?
The Way Corps program was designed specifically by vpw,
who lacked any training OR experience with training programs.
The resulting program taught some things vpw could teach,
and suffered from all the problems he had.
The Corps were unable to learn Church history because vpw
knew none, and always wanted to hide what OTHER
Christians do, and pretend that none existed from the
1st century AD until he taught PFAL. Further, he taught
that all Christians outside his group were inferior.
The Way Corps learned all his bad habits, some good
Bible, and missed much. They learned how to BOSS
but not to LEAD-since HE did not know how to lead.
They did not know how to comfort the suffering-
since he knew how to manipulate but not how to
suffer with those brought low. Thus, they learned
that a Christian responds to need and suffering
by reciting Bible verses, and that's it. Give the
person a "pep talk" and send them out.
REAL Christians comfort those in pain, aid the
suffering, and roll up their sleeves and do the
MESSY WORK. Sometimes that means doing
something and NOT reading Bible verses.
Sometimes that means forgetting all the rules,
and listening to God give you a set of odd or
silly instructions, then carrying them out
and looking silly.
Many good people went into the Way Corps as
good people, and came out as good people.
Many good people went into the Way Corps as
good people, and came out with their hearts
injured and their personalities bleeding.
Many good people went into the Way Corps as
good people, and came out as little tyrants,
barking out orders and having hearts of stone.
Many bad people went into the Way Corps as
bad people, and came out as WORSE people
(who now had a title and could abuse people.)
There were good things and bad things learned
in the Corps program. The program itself-
to REALLY help Christians-needed a complete
redesign to do that-and still does.
So, in short,
the Way Corps as a whole are not even CLOSE
to what you were taught they were.
===========
That's the bad news.
Now it's time for the good news.
The good news is that, just as someone lied
to you about the Way Corps,
someone lied to you about other Christians,
too.
Other Christians are not idolatrous monsters
who go around with no knowledge of God.
Many of them are well-informed.
Many of them know most of what twi people knew.
Many of them know what twi people never knew.
Many of them have depth of character-
something a real Christian NEEDS and twi
NEVER had.
You can "see a sermon" in their lives rather
than hear someone reciting Bible verses
ABOUT the subject.
I love the Bible, but doing that often means
LIVING it, not just RECITING it.
Learning a new Greek word can be fun-
lifting up those who were brought down
can CHANGE LIVES.
Which would you rather be remembered for?
So,
look around the area you are in.
I'm certain there are GOOD Christians and
BAD Christians in your area.
Look for the LOVE.
Jesus said the world would know his
disciples for their LOVE,
not for their book-knowledge.
With internet access, it is possible
to find thousands and thousands
of Christians.
With a little walking or driving,
you can find hundreds or thousands
of Christians.
Did that answer your question,
or do you absolutely insist on just
hearing more of what you already
learned and NEVER going beyond that?
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socks
HI themex! I don't know where you're at really, what's your location, generally? I know nothing about the ministry's activities in Mexico these last 15 years or so. It sounds like you're looking for a place where your heart is at home. I can understand that.
I don't know how close you are to other churches, or schools or how accessible they would be to you, but you might consider looking for some friendly faces in places where Christians gather. I don't worry myself about what we disagree on as much as I try to let what we agree on draw us together.
Pastoring is different than teaching. Pastors of churches will certainly teach but the emphasis of someone working in a church as a pastor is going to be to help the people that come there, personally, one to one, face to face. I think a lot of chuches both big and small benefit from men and women who feel they have that calling and who have some training in doing it. You might consider checking some out, and give it some time.
If you feel a void because there's no one to teach fellowships like they did in the Way fellowships, consider this - in the U.S. fellowships I know a lot of us got together and sat around teaching and hearing the same things over and over again. It's good to hear things from the bible that encourage us, yes. It's also good to look out to your community and see what you can do with what you know, what you can do that God is saying in the bible that we should do - help the weak, the sick. The elderly, those without any help at hand. Those people may never see any God but the one you bring to them and show them, by doing for them what God would want done. God heals - bring healing. God loves - bring love. God encourages - encourage. God listens - listen. God forgives. For people that have no forgiveness even for themselves, you may be the one to display the sacrifice of Jesus to them. Who knows? It's kind of exciting, and a little goes a long way.
:)
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socks
I wanted to add themex - my take would be, don't try to reshuffle the Way deck to see who you should "follow" now.
Of the names you mentioned, I'd say "none of the above". Why? Because you're just heading down the same path as before - looking for the man of God of our day and time. It would seem they come and go with the days.
The only figure I know of that fills that spot in the Church is Jesus Christ. Whether hes' a figure of our imagination or real, it's Him. Putting a man in that place, or allowing one to take it, is bad for business. It's like an employee sitting in the Bosses chair, sending his secretary out for coffee and using his phone. Sooner or later the Boss is going to show up.
It sounds unrealistic to choose The Lord, but it's not. I've found that any legitmate pastor of God's people will be too humbled by what they're charged with to place too much emphasis on themselves and their spot. Anyone honest enough to look inside themselves and see the truth will be careful in how they handle the things of God, most importantly His people. Their fellowship with you won't be based on getting you to follow them, or accepting it. My opinion, for what it's worth.
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themex
have you ever thought that the man of god for our times might be the pope? not saying he is but...who knows
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Belle
Why does there HAVE to be a "man of God for our day and time"? Chapter and verse on that one, please.
What happened to the One Body? What happened to no part being more important than any other part of the body? :huh:
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socks
Belle, I see a possible snappy acronym here -
"LOGFODAT"
Lady of God for our day and time!
that's been the problem all along - We need a LOG!
:D
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themex
What? <_<
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Oakspear
Please...supply...a...chapter & verse...reference...from THE BIBLE...to back up...your assertion...that...there is...a MOGFODAT.
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themex
I don´t have one. As a matter of fact I have never before in my life question the man of God subject. I lerned so much from The Way, from PFAL and the other materials than never consider that they have a doctrinal problem an that TWI is base over lies. :huh:
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Oakspear
Maybe you ought to consider it NOW!
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