Well it's not an idea I would have come up with in a million years, but I cannot say I object overly much either, especially considering it seems to have worked.
Yeah, yeah, psychological abuse. Not necessarily - how about a dose of reality. I get the positive reinforcement thing, really. But sometimes that is simply not enough, sometimes it just doesn't work.
There really isn't enough information here to judge what would and wouldn't work or what the mother has and hasn't already tried. I have to at least applaud the mom for caring enough to take a stand with her daughter and for trying to teach her that there are real life consequences to the choices she makes.
I was talking to a mom I really respect a few days ago. She pointed out that the courts and the government want us to keep our kids off the streets and out of police cars. At the same time, they tie the parent's hands leaving them with less and less authority over their children and their homes. I do not in any way advocate abusing children - but when the kids know they can back their parents into a corner simply by calling social services, what are the parents to do?
I wish I would have thought of that when I needed it! Very creative indeed.
There really isn't enough information here to judge what would and wouldn't work or what the mother has and hasn't already tried. I have to at least applaud the mom for caring enough to take a stand with her daughter and for trying to teach her that there are real life consequences to the choices she makes.
Our kids always knew that we love them and supported them, and we made a distinct difference between them and their actions.I even used words that stated as much. When my oldest at about 4 started a bad whiny period, I covered my ears and said "my ears don't hear whining" and God gave me the where-with-all to hold out until she got the idea and used a normal tone of voice. It was over pretty quickly and whenever either of them started that particular tactic back up again....they got the same response, so we heard very little of that!
I was less than a perfect parent! But - I know this kind of thing works. Don't we all base our decisions on the consequences of our previous actions?
Our school sends home weekly grades and deportment reports--I know if they were late to science etc. .
I don't get on them unless it is a D due to missing or late assignments--which I learn about by questioning child. If the class material is really a problem, they need help/tutoring from the teacher, which our school offers. I transport. Their grades are always back up by the next report. I can also track them on a school grade website, but I don't bother with that--the weekly print out is enough
If my kids goof off in school (I have junior high aged kids) and get a bad grade, they lose computer, phone, grounded etc. Plus many of their classes offer extra credit work if they want to raise a grade, which I expect them to do. That is their weekend, which is humiliating enough for them! It is pretty much what many of their peers experince, also, for a bad grade. Stuff social services won't interfere with, either, and who spanks jr high kids anyway? Mine are all larger than I!
If the parent is paying attention, I don't see how a child could be totally bombing out in Jr high. Don't they get mid terms? Sounds to me as though this child's education and behavior was neglected by parent until parent was humilated enough to take it out on the kid. Like the parent who puts up with nasty sass mouth until they get fed up, and pops 'em. Nice lesson there.
I can't imagine doing something that humiliating to my child, sounds like Jerry Springer stuff to me. But then, there's not much chance one of my kids would be flunking every class, either, without me being aware of it.
I can't see doing that either, but I don't think that would really harm the kid. I wouldn't be surprised if that mom warned the kid that she might do something that drastic and the kid "called her bluff." No doubt she got the kid's attention. Sometimes I have to tell my 9 year old to do something 3 times and she can STILL look me square in the eye after the 3rd time (which isn't in my nicest tone of voice) and say sweetly "What I was TRYING to tell you was..." as if I would listen to anything she might say at that point until after she does what I've asked her to do.
I heard that Madonna was getting criticized for taking her daughter's clothes away ( all but one outfit and made her wear it to school two days in a row) when she continually refused to pick them up off the floor and made her earn them back by taking care of her responsibilities. (Madonna also said her kids don't watch tv.) I have a friend that did a similar thing - took away everything the kid owned except a mattress and a blanket. No sheet. No pillow. The kid was without anything more for a week and then gradually has been earning her stuff back. They didn't take the kid's clothes from her, but absolutely everything else. This kid is almost 10. She doesn't seem any worse for the wear. About a month after her stuff was removed from her room, she was over here and I told my daughter I was going to start tossing out what she left lying on the floor and her friend asked me if she could try to explain to my daughter why she should take care of it right then and she even helped her. They had that room squared away in no time. It was an awesome sight to behold.
Bow Jr. just seemed to be easier with that stuff. He got himself up and dressed and made his own bed every morning from kindergarten on. He kept his room pretty neat on his own. I took care of his bedding and laundry, but as soon as he was able to run a vacuum cleaner he just wanted to take care of his own. Of course he was raised in a cult his first 13 years...
I'm with you, Bramble. I know on a daily basis what my daughter has been doing at school. She shows me every day when she gets home. We talk every day about our days. It's my job to stay aware of what's going on with her. She just started 4th grade and this is the year that her school starts the kids switching classrooms and being responsible for keeping their stuff together and the first few weeks were hell on both of us.
I made a chart of her chores just this morning. I think she'll do well with it. :D
I did not have a middle school nearly as good as the one your children attend. Not even close. I couldn't get weekly reports if I asked for them. They had no midterms. Maybe this is why so many kids in our town had such a hard time in high school. I don't live there now, so I don't know what happens today.
Some children are different from others. Some are harder to "train" than others. I went through a period of time when my daughter played her music so loudly that it rattled the fillings in my teeth. Discussions and pleadings led nowhere. So - I told her the next time her music was too loud and I asked her to turn it down and she did not respond I would flip the circuit breaker to her room for 1 hour. She tested me, and there was no power in her room for 1 hour.
During the quiet period, I again explained to her how her music volume (not the music) bothered me and please cooperate because consequences would only increase. She got teen-testy and wanted to know the consequences. I told her that it would not be 1 hour, but 1 whole day.
Things went along fairly well for a week or so and I guess she forgot our discussion. Well the day finally came when I asked her again to turn down the volume and she refused to do it and I had no choice because it bothered me to such a degree that I did flip the circuit breaker. She had to do her homework in the dining room, arrange for a friend to call her to waker her in the morning...she had to figure out a way to get her hair dried and curled in and out of our single bathroom while the rest of us were getting ready.
It took that degree of her inconvenience before she got the message.
I'm not advocating making a spectacle out of your kids for sport, but if the gentle way doesn't work, then maybe one needs stronger consequences to teach the lesson. I never liked my children being humiliated either. However, if kids don't get the message of responsibility, I would rather see them embarrassed as teenagers than floundering as adults.
Bramble, I wish my children had that middle school. Their lives and their educations would have been all the better for it. But, when they were that age, 18 or so years ago, they didn't get the reinforcement at school to help me at home. I am so glad your children have a similar standard all the time.
I think they should force the mother to stand on the corner with a sign saying "will work for food." for a few hours so she can see how it feels. Then ask her if it's appropriate punishment for a child.
This is nothing but motivating someone via public humiliation. I'm sure she had fun at school the next few days with everyone talking about it. Real nice.
Perhaps mommy should consider actually spending time with her daughter helping her with her school work, instead trying to scare her into performing better.
You're a good guy but you don't understand what parents of rebellious teenagers go through. We have one such problem child who is 16 but thinks she's a mature adult. We've spent a small fortune trying to deal with her rebelliousness, selfishness and ungrateful ways. She was like this a a baby believe it or not. I first realized there was a real problem when she was still crawling and her big sister tried to help her walk. I saw her make a fist, I'm not lying, and hit her sister in the face because she wanted to do it HER way! Nothing we could do would make this child happy as she was growing up. We've had her in psychological therapy for years but all they say is wrong with her is that she is headstrong, determined and get this... angry. Yes she's angry though no one seems to know why. We've tried to love this child like we have our other two who are just fine. We spent $10,000 3 Summers ago to put her through one of those boot camps for rebellious teens and let me tell you.. that was the best money we've ever spent. Man, there was a big improvement after that but it didn't last because this is a very intelligent child and she knows we can't do that during the school year.
So what do we do when she's found drinking? We ground her. But she sneaks out at night and we can't stay up all night every night. What do we do when she curses us and tells us to shut the f**k up? Why we ground her, restrict privileges . Now Greasy... any time you have a better idea here, just jump right in and let us know. We had her at the psychologist just today as a matter of fact but could be you have some inside information on how to deal with an insolent child. We've called the police and had them take her out to the patrol car in handcuffs when she wouldn't obey us and go to her room when ordered. But you know, Greasy... these kids KNOW that there's really nothing that's going to be done to them. The police take them down to Juvenile Hall and they are just released. The kids know this. And THIS child knows all offenses as a juvenile are expunged when they turn 18. So what are we to do when she doesn't come straight home after school? We know she's sexually active, too. Is that what she's been doing?
In short, Greasy... this has been hell dealing with this child and we're not done yet. So yes, it DID rather disturb me when I saw your post and how you thought the mother's actions were disgusting. And what were YOUR suggestions for the mother?? That she help her child with homework? Did you even read that the child wasn't doing her homework? Was tardy?? Was sassing?? And this was the mother's fault? Yes, Greasy, now that I think about it.. you can spare me any more of your helpful ideas on how to raise children. And just a suggestion to you... before you start calling a parent's actions "disgusting" you might want to talk to a parent like me who has tried everything legal first.
I agree about the public humiliation. What might be a good idea privately is not necessarily good for public consumption.
Maybe then mom should stand on the street corner wearing a sign saying "I should have found a better way"!
There was a time when parents were encouraged to let their children develop their own individuality and somehow that engendered permissiveness which spilled out and over into bad behavior. I'm glad to see things turning around. I'm also glad to see that our general surroundings encourage better behavior. There are still some wrapped candies and gum at supermarket registers, but they've removed the individual lollipops that my young children would like to have had a tantrum for.
There are always going to be discussions about how children should be raised. And that's a good thing. At least most parents today are setting rules and boundaries and making their children responsible for their own behavior. "That's a good thing".....aka Martha Stewart.
Sudo - I do know of children such as your daughter. I've run into perhaps about a dozen or so that I had to deal with personally, and few parents were still trying at your stage of the game. You and your wife, and indeed the rest of your family have my deepest respect for your stand, for not backing down and not giving up.
You probably have already done this, but if she were my daughter I would insist on a full complete medical exam including a screening by an endocrinologist. Hormones, besides those that rage in teenagers naturally can wreak havoc and can be adjusted.
Another possibility might be a full and complete neurological exam by a competent neurologist. Things they know today are remarkable. I don't want you to go down another blind alley, but it might be worth a shot.
Your child has been like this a long time, but I have seen more than one youngster over night change into an absolute terror, and upon exam, was found to have suddenly become diabetic. I just state this to reinforce the idea of hormones acting in strange ways, I think if your child was diabetic you'd have known it long ago.
On another note:
It is true that her record may be expunged at 18 but there is no guarantee that she will get there (to 18) without some other offense which will cause it to not be. There are situations, at least in NJ, where that is not true. Here, after a certain age, their behavior must be letter perfect...not even a traffic ticket. I do hope she can and will control herself after that age,and it would be good if she started practicing that now.
This is just a guess, GT, but I suspect you've never had kids (please correct me if I'm wrong). While I may or may not condone what the mother did, I certainly understand it.
I read one article that said the mother stood with her daughter the whole time. I'm with Sudo and Bramble--sometimes these extremes are truly necessary. In MD we had a neighbor girl who was like your daughter, Sudo. The middle child, single Mom--Mom was doing her best to properly care for her child-- this child did need meds-- and wouldn't take them! She was constantly in trouble-- at school, with her Mom and with the police. She threatened to kill her Mom. The Mom didn't believe it would really happen--but who knows? This Mom eventually kicked the girl out of the house-- tough love. I was glad to be a shoulder for the Mom that day--and partly understood why she eventually let the kid come back. The kid behaved for awhile, took her meds--and started becoming a mon ster again just about the time we were moving to GA. I think about the Mom a lot and worry about her and the other two left at home--I hope I don't read about them in the news.
I aplaud this Mom in OK--and PSHAW! about the psychological damage! So the kid was okay psychologically before that? yeahhhh, riiiiight! <_<
I stand by my comment. Why should it be ok for a 14 year old to be treated that way, if it's wrong for it to be done to an adult. Does a 14 year old have any less human rights? So what if she's not doing her school work. It's her life to do what she wants with it.
Sudo, sorry about you situation. I'm sure it's rough. I think medical exams is a good suggestion. I had the same problem myself and it was medical related. When your body is not in order, it throws you for a loop and you can't think straight.
I think they should force the mother to stand on the corner with a sign saying "will work for food." for a few hours so she can see how it feels.
Then ask her if it's appropriate punishment for a child.
I hate the word *appropriate*!!!
Either say *good* or *bad*, but don't waffle on yer description,
by trying to put it in *PC* terms.
Call a spade a spade -- ok?? Either say it is good, or bad (your choice).
Personally -- (imo) the young lady learned a lesson, and was none the worse for wear.
Psychological abuse doesn't happen this way. Abuse is continued action, and since the mom was there -- ya can't make that call and make it stick. :)
if I f##### up like this, I was grounded, lost my allowance for the week (had to to the chores regardless), and no tv for whatever determined amount of time (by my folks).
Given a choice, I might have stood out on the street corner too.
And The mother in this story (imo) made a good point ----
If the kid wasn't willing to work for grades, they surely weren't going to work for money.
*Will work for Food* was a very distinct possibility for her in her future, had her grades been as bad as they could have been.
Oh ---@*&$ -- What am I saying???
Even those with college degrees *work for food* -----
But we don't have to stand on street corners, to advertise. :)
So what if she's not doing her school work. It's her life to do what she wants with it.
Greasy Tech -- I'm gonna back off a bit here. Is this your child your are speaking of, or the one from the original post???
Either way -- I feel extremely sorry for you (or anyone) who thinks that a 14 year old teen-ager has more rights than the parent.
Sorry. I'm *old-school*, and it worked for me and my generation -- so there is no way I can see this as a viable entity. Matter of fact -- IMO, I see this kind of thinking leading us deeper into the deep *doo-doo* (who said that ?? Bush number 41??!!) :D, that is leading this country to Hell in a handbasket..
Kids have human rights --- yes.
Bur they need to be in subjection to authority (their parents) as well. If the parent can't lead the kid, they ain't a'gonna be led --- period.
And then -- that *work for food* sign might be a very real entity in that kid's life. :(
As a parent who has had one son go through the rebel years and a daughter just finishing up the rebel years, I think this is great ........ humiliation goes both directions, if you can dish it out the teen better be able to take it ...... as parents in an ever changing world we must come up with new ideas to get through to our adolescent grown ups .... I think the mother from Oaklaohoma City is quite inventive.
My third child who is almost a teen swears he is NOT going to rebel ..... to much trouble he says ..... he has a better way of getting what he wants ........
"Why should it be ok for a 14 year old to be treated that way, if it's wrong for it to be done to an adult."
The reality is, this is EXACTLY what happens to some adults. And yes, it is sad. Better for this girl to understand at 14 due to an hour or two of humiliation what the long-term consequences of her decisions could be, than for her to find out the hard way when she is 30 and it is much harder to go back and finish school.
" Does a 14 year old have any less human rights?"
YES. Until she is working and paying her own bills, she has the right to follow the rules of the person who IS paying the bills.
"So what if she's not doing her school work. It's her life to do what she wants with it. "
You have got to be kidding. 14-year-olds are dumber than dirt. They see nothing beyond the minute or hour in which they are currently living. They have no clue the decisions they are making today will affect their entire future.
If it truly were "her life to do with what she wants", then why does she still need to live at home with a parent? Why does any 14-year-old? If most 14-year-olds are capable of making adult decisions, why aren't they out in the real world taking care of themselves?
Sheesh - that is like saying, "go ahead and get pregnant at 14, after all, it's your life to do with what you want."
Why does this thread remind me of sitting through one of Craig's corpse meetings, with him trashing someone for hours, then calling it loving? *GROAN*
Even have a lively discussion of the use of English words. Sorry, but a word that means suitable for a particular person, condition, occasion, or place is appropriate usage. Can't do much about John Kerry using the same word. I hardly use "good" or "bad" anymore, since they don't have much meaning outside of a religoious context and seem so black and white. "Hate" is a another word I tend to disdain. And the country is only going to hell for those who believe such a place exist.
I don't buy into the master-slave model of parenting. The "I pay the bills, you do what I tell you to do because I'm in charge." I've never seen it work. It may get a shot-term desirable response, but a kid will usually drop it at first opportunity. And why wouldn't they?
And no, I never said kids have more rights than adults, nor do I think it. I do think they have basic human rights and should be treated as a human, not as an animal (or a slave). I also do not subscribe to hitting children. If it is wrong for someone to hit me as an adult, then it is wrong for them to hit me when I'm a child. This is basic human rights. Calling hitting a child spanking does not change the actuality of what is being done. And before the Bible thumpers jump on me, consider that the word for "rod" used in reference to disciplining a child is the same used in Psalm 23, "Thy rod and Thy staff comfort me." I've never been comforted by someone hitting me. And show me a shepherd that inflicts physical pain on his sheep.
if I f##### up like this, I was grounded, lost my allowance for the week (had to to the chores regardless), and no tv for whatever determined amount of time (by my folks).
I agree with this. Revocation of privileges. It reflects how life works. When you perform well, you get more priveleges. When you don't, you have less privileges. When I perform well at my job, I make more money (in general -- life isn't always fair). If I perform poorly, or with blatant disregard, I risk losing my revenue stream.
From everything I've seen and read, along with my own experience, suggests that positive reinforcement is the most powerful motivator. Kids, and adults, will do things for fear of suffering consequences, but only the minimum is done -- just enough to say it was done. Fear is a powerful motivator and is a part of everyday life. But doing something because you want to do it is a whole other story.
Do you not recall the times your parents were proud of you, told you so, stood up for you (if they ever did)? Do you not recall craving this? Or how about when you did something stupid (as everyone does occasionally) and they were there for you to help, not make you feel like an idiot? What's going to happen when this girl next does something wrong, ends up with her face in the ground and needs her mother to help pick her back up? Will she look to her for help or will she be afraid to do so, thinking she might drive her deeper into the dirt with more public humiliation?
If this mother really believes her daughter is going to be homeless and begging on the streets because she isn't taking school serious, then take her down on the streets and have her talk with the homeless people so she can see what that kind of life is like. But don't humiliate her in front of everyone. That has to be one of the worst things a parent could do. It severly damages the trust the child would have for her. Why would the girl ever tell her mother what is actually bothering her and affecting her performance at school?
I prefer to have my kids feel and know that they can tell me anything and I'll be there for them. I never want them afraid of me or think I have a low opinion of them. Even if they turn out to be the scourge of society, they will always know that I will support them in whatever they choose to do and do whatever I can to help them and will always be proud of them. To have it any other way, I might as well shoot myself since there wouldn't be anything left in life to live for.
I'm not perfect and definitely not an expert at raising kids. Far from it. But when some ****ing pervert did some God awful thing to my little girl, the kind of thing most kids never tell anyone out of shame, she told me immediately. And I was right there to help her, tell her she didn't do anything wrong, that I was so proud of her doing the difficult thing of telling me about it. I helped her back on her feet, made sure she was ok, then went and kicked that ****ing pervert's foot (well, legally -- just don't put the two of us in the same room because only one of us would be walking out). The thought of her not feeling she could tell me something like this, that I might react with scorn and/or consequences (whether justified or not) and living with it buried inside her the rest of her life is just God awful.
So yes, I think what this mother did is disgusting. It might bring her grades up a bit for awhile, but it also drives a wedge between them. Life is going to throw more crap at this girl. Is she going to trust her mother to help her? Being humiliated in public is something one does not easily forget.
I'm with the Mom in Edmond, Oklahoma. Good thinking, that. I think that Society Today is way too lenient on these "poor and fragile" Children. Consequences for their actions are a good thing. If the Child has the "right" to humiliate her parents and their Family Name by sassing her teachers in HS, then I guess a dose of humiliation is in order for the initial "humiliator".
Now, here is another method I'd never heard of until it happened to my daughter's HS boyfriend. Her boyfriend at that time (11th and 12th grade), lived in a very large household. The household consisted of a step dad, his step dad's teenaged daughter of the same age, and two sets of twin boys (wow!), and one other little brother, and of course, his Mom, and of course, his Ownself. If I counted correctly, that's nine people in a not so large house. For some reason, this kid, Nick was lucky enought to have his own room. Now, as it turned out, Nick began to get into the usual troubles of partying, drinking, lousy grades, and not keeping up with the houssehold chores. And so, do you know what the man of the house (the step dad) did as punishement?
He took the door off of his bedroom. No privacy. And for a teeneaged boy with raging hormones, this spelled disaster! And it also prompted him to get his act together. And each time he acted up, off came the door. I think this occurred about three times during my daughter's relationship with him. The relationship ended halfway through their senior year.
And on a humorous note, at their graduation ceremony, there was a little "program" type deal handed out that had pictures and individual comments from each of the 23 graduating seniors (small town). Also in this program deal was a thing call "Wills". This is where each student would "will" to other students certain things that they thought would be good for their friends to have. For instance my Daughters friend Amy said this; "And to Meagan, my dearst pal, I will to you the biggest most handsomest, and tenderhearted Nordic blonde haired guy for a boyfriend", and things like that. This was also a place where the graduating seniors got a little payback in when it came to folks that they had issue with, and faculty was not excluded.
At any rate, because my daughter had been treated poorly by Nick who had cheated on Meagan with one of Meagan's friends, but then made jokes about and badmouthed my daughter after she dumped him, my daughter willed him this little gem for all to read;
"And to Nick, my one time boyfriend: "I will to you at least some degree of maturity, hoping that one day you will Grow Up. I also will to you a door to your bedroom..."
The bottom line with me is that in Real Life, we pay prices for our mistakes. We all know this. And if we raise our kids without any real consequences for their actions, consequences that are unpleasant, then we will only raise kids with big "L's" on their foreheads...
"I don't buy into the master-slave model of parenting. The "I pay the bills, you do what I tell you to do because I'm in charge." I've never seen it work. It may get a shot-term desirable response, but a kid will usually drop it at first opportunity. And why wouldn't they?"
Sure they would. But isn't the goal to get the kid to move out eventually anyway? And don't we want them to be prepared for the real world when they do? In the real world, there will still be rules to follow. If they grow up thinking they can do whatever they fool please, they will be in for a very rude awakening some day and as an adult the price/consquences will be MUCH steeper.
"I do think they have basic human rights and should be treated as a human, not as an animal (or a slave)."a
I agree, when they behave like humans they should be treated like humans. But, if they want to behave like animals (and kids sometimes do) . . .
"I agree with this. Revocation of privileges. It reflects how life works. When you perform well, you get more priveleges. When you don't, you have less privileges. When I perform well at my job, I make more money (in general -- life isn't always fair). If I perform poorly, or with blatant disregard, I risk losing my revenue stream."
Exactly. If you perform poorly or with blatant disregard, then you will have to humiliate yourself by begging for food and money. Sounds like this mom gave her daughter a dose of real world consequences, which btw, are often more effective than the unnatural consequences we sometimes come up with off-the-cuff for our kids.
"From everything I've seen and read, along with my own experience, suggests that positive reinforcement is the most powerful motivator. Kids, and adults, will do things for fear of suffering consequences, but only the minimum is done -- just enough to say it was done. Fear is a powerful motivator and is a part of everyday life. But doing something because you want to do it is a whole other story"
Yes, positive reinforcement (when it is honestly deserved and properly given) is a powerful motivator. But postive reinforcement for good behavior without natural consequences for poor behavior is usually inadequate. It requires both to teach kids how to think before they act - to teach them that all decisions have a consequence, be it good or bad.
Yes, we want kids to do things because they WANT to do them. But in real life, we all at times have to do things even when we DON'T want to do them. I have to pay the bills whether I feel like it or not (and who really wants to pay bills???). So kids need to learn how to think and foresee the natural consequences of their choices. As parents, it is our responsibility to help them do this, by issuing natural consequences.
"Do you not recall the times your parents were proud of you, told you so, stood up for you (if they ever did)? Do you not recall craving this?"
All kids and many adults crave approval. But a healthy person will give THEMSELVES approval first (as in, it comes from inside) thereby lessening the need for approval from others.
" Or how about when you did something stupid (as everyone does occasionally) and they were there for you to help, not make you feel like an idiot? "
Ahhhh, but there is a trick to this. Allowing your kids to have consequences for bad choices does not have to make them feel like an idiot. It depends on how you handle it. First, you focus on the choice, not the child. Second, you don't react out of anger but instead show them a lot of empathy because they are now going to have to deal with the consequences of their decision. You feel bad for them as they pay the piper. This shows them you love them, while still allowing them to learn.
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Galen
Good for her.
:D
Though I am surprized that the mother did not end up in jail.
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Pirate1974
Maybe we should bring back the stocks and the dunking stool too.
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Morgan
Well it's not an idea I would have come up with in a million years, but I cannot say I object overly much either, especially considering it seems to have worked.
Yeah, yeah, psychological abuse. Not necessarily - how about a dose of reality. I get the positive reinforcement thing, really. But sometimes that is simply not enough, sometimes it just doesn't work.
There really isn't enough information here to judge what would and wouldn't work or what the mother has and hasn't already tried. I have to at least applaud the mom for caring enough to take a stand with her daughter and for trying to teach her that there are real life consequences to the choices she makes.
I was talking to a mom I really respect a few days ago. She pointed out that the courts and the government want us to keep our kids off the streets and out of police cars. At the same time, they tie the parent's hands leaving them with less and less authority over their children and their homes. I do not in any way advocate abusing children - but when the kids know they can back their parents into a corner simply by calling social services, what are the parents to do?
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krys
I wish I would have thought of that when I needed it! Very creative indeed.
Our kids always knew that we love them and supported them, and we made a distinct difference between them and their actions. I even used words that stated as much. When my oldest at about 4 started a bad whiny period, I covered my ears and said "my ears don't hear whining" and God gave me the where-with-all to hold out until she got the idea and used a normal tone of voice. It was over pretty quickly and whenever either of them started that particular tactic back up again....they got the same response, so we heard very little of that!
I was less than a perfect parent! But - I know this kind of thing works. Don't we all base our decisions on the consequences of our previous actions?
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Bramble
I guess I don't get it.
Our school sends home weekly grades and deportment reports--I know if they were late to science etc. .
I don't get on them unless it is a D due to missing or late assignments--which I learn about by questioning child. If the class material is really a problem, they need help/tutoring from the teacher, which our school offers. I transport. Their grades are always back up by the next report. I can also track them on a school grade website, but I don't bother with that--the weekly print out is enough
If my kids goof off in school (I have junior high aged kids) and get a bad grade, they lose computer, phone, grounded etc. Plus many of their classes offer extra credit work if they want to raise a grade, which I expect them to do. That is their weekend, which is humiliating enough for them! It is pretty much what many of their peers experince, also, for a bad grade. Stuff social services won't interfere with, either, and who spanks jr high kids anyway? Mine are all larger than I!
If the parent is paying attention, I don't see how a child could be totally bombing out in Jr high. Don't they get mid terms? Sounds to me as though this child's education and behavior was neglected by parent until parent was humilated enough to take it out on the kid. Like the parent who puts up with nasty sass mouth until they get fed up, and pops 'em. Nice lesson there.
I can't imagine doing something that humiliating to my child, sounds like Jerry Springer stuff to me. But then, there's not much chance one of my kids would be flunking every class, either, without me being aware of it.
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bowtwi
I can't see doing that either, but I don't think that would really harm the kid. I wouldn't be surprised if that mom warned the kid that she might do something that drastic and the kid "called her bluff." No doubt she got the kid's attention. Sometimes I have to tell my 9 year old to do something 3 times and she can STILL look me square in the eye after the 3rd time (which isn't in my nicest tone of voice) and say sweetly "What I was TRYING to tell you was..." as if I would listen to anything she might say at that point until after she does what I've asked her to do.
I heard that Madonna was getting criticized for taking her daughter's clothes away ( all but one outfit and made her wear it to school two days in a row) when she continually refused to pick them up off the floor and made her earn them back by taking care of her responsibilities. (Madonna also said her kids don't watch tv.) I have a friend that did a similar thing - took away everything the kid owned except a mattress and a blanket. No sheet. No pillow. The kid was without anything more for a week and then gradually has been earning her stuff back. They didn't take the kid's clothes from her, but absolutely everything else. This kid is almost 10. She doesn't seem any worse for the wear. About a month after her stuff was removed from her room, she was over here and I told my daughter I was going to start tossing out what she left lying on the floor and her friend asked me if she could try to explain to my daughter why she should take care of it right then and she even helped her. They had that room squared away in no time. It was an awesome sight to behold.
Bow Jr. just seemed to be easier with that stuff. He got himself up and dressed and made his own bed every morning from kindergarten on. He kept his room pretty neat on his own. I took care of his bedding and laundry, but as soon as he was able to run a vacuum cleaner he just wanted to take care of his own. Of course he was raised in a cult his first 13 years...
I'm with you, Bramble. I know on a daily basis what my daughter has been doing at school. She shows me every day when she gets home. We talk every day about our days. It's my job to stay aware of what's going on with her. She just started 4th grade and this is the year that her school starts the kids switching classrooms and being responsible for keeping their stuff together and the first few weeks were hell on both of us.
I made a chart of her chores just this morning. I think she'll do well with it. :D
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krys
Bramble:
I did not have a middle school nearly as good as the one your children attend. Not even close. I couldn't get weekly reports if I asked for them. They had no midterms. Maybe this is why so many kids in our town had such a hard time in high school. I don't live there now, so I don't know what happens today.
Some children are different from others. Some are harder to "train" than others. I went through a period of time when my daughter played her music so loudly that it rattled the fillings in my teeth. Discussions and pleadings led nowhere. So - I told her the next time her music was too loud and I asked her to turn it down and she did not respond I would flip the circuit breaker to her room for 1 hour. She tested me, and there was no power in her room for 1 hour.
During the quiet period, I again explained to her how her music volume (not the music) bothered me and please cooperate because consequences would only increase. She got teen-testy and wanted to know the consequences. I told her that it would not be 1 hour, but 1 whole day.
Things went along fairly well for a week or so and I guess she forgot our discussion. Well the day finally came when I asked her again to turn down the volume and she refused to do it and I had no choice because it bothered me to such a degree that I did flip the circuit breaker. She had to do her homework in the dining room, arrange for a friend to call her to waker her in the morning...she had to figure out a way to get her hair dried and curled in and out of our single bathroom while the rest of us were getting ready.
It took that degree of her inconvenience before she got the message.
I'm not advocating making a spectacle out of your kids for sport, but if the gentle way doesn't work, then maybe one needs stronger consequences to teach the lesson. I never liked my children being humiliated either. However, if kids don't get the message of responsibility, I would rather see them embarrassed as teenagers than floundering as adults.
Bramble, I wish my children had that middle school. Their lives and their educations would have been all the better for it. But, when they were that age, 18 or so years ago, they didn't get the reinforcement at school to help me at home. I am so glad your children have a similar standard all the time.
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GT
I think they should force the mother to stand on the corner with a sign saying "will work for food." for a few hours so she can see how it feels. Then ask her if it's appropriate punishment for a child.
This is nothing but motivating someone via public humiliation. I'm sure she had fun at school the next few days with everyone talking about it. Real nice.
Perhaps mommy should consider actually spending time with her daughter helping her with her school work, instead trying to scare her into performing better.
Disgusting!
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Sudo
Greasy,
You're a good guy but you don't understand what parents of rebellious teenagers go through. We have one such problem child who is 16 but thinks she's a mature adult. We've spent a small fortune trying to deal with her rebelliousness, selfishness and ungrateful ways. She was like this a a baby believe it or not. I first realized there was a real problem when she was still crawling and her big sister tried to help her walk. I saw her make a fist, I'm not lying, and hit her sister in the face because she wanted to do it HER way! Nothing we could do would make this child happy as she was growing up. We've had her in psychological therapy for years but all they say is wrong with her is that she is headstrong, determined and get this... angry. Yes she's angry though no one seems to know why. We've tried to love this child like we have our other two who are just fine. We spent $10,000 3 Summers ago to put her through one of those boot camps for rebellious teens and let me tell you.. that was the best money we've ever spent. Man, there was a big improvement after that but it didn't last because this is a very intelligent child and she knows we can't do that during the school year.
So what do we do when she's found drinking? We ground her. But she sneaks out at night and we can't stay up all night every night. What do we do when she curses us and tells us to shut the f**k up? Why we ground her, restrict privileges . Now Greasy... any time you have a better idea here, just jump right in and let us know. We had her at the psychologist just today as a matter of fact but could be you have some inside information on how to deal with an insolent child. We've called the police and had them take her out to the patrol car in handcuffs when she wouldn't obey us and go to her room when ordered. But you know, Greasy... these kids KNOW that there's really nothing that's going to be done to them. The police take them down to Juvenile Hall and they are just released. The kids know this. And THIS child knows all offenses as a juvenile are expunged when they turn 18. So what are we to do when she doesn't come straight home after school? We know she's sexually active, too. Is that what she's been doing?
In short, Greasy... this has been hell dealing with this child and we're not done yet. So yes, it DID rather disturb me when I saw your post and how you thought the mother's actions were disgusting. And what were YOUR suggestions for the mother?? That she help her child with homework? Did you even read that the child wasn't doing her homework? Was tardy?? Was sassing?? And this was the mother's fault? Yes, Greasy, now that I think about it.. you can spare me any more of your helpful ideas on how to raise children. And just a suggestion to you... before you start calling a parent's actions "disgusting" you might want to talk to a parent like me who has tried everything legal first.
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krys
I agree about the public humiliation. What might be a good idea privately is not necessarily good for public consumption.
Maybe then mom should stand on the street corner wearing a sign saying "I should have found a better way"!
There was a time when parents were encouraged to let their children develop their own individuality and somehow that engendered permissiveness which spilled out and over into bad behavior. I'm glad to see things turning around. I'm also glad to see that our general surroundings encourage better behavior. There are still some wrapped candies and gum at supermarket registers, but they've removed the individual lollipops that my young children would like to have had a tantrum for.
There are always going to be discussions about how children should be raised. And that's a good thing. At least most parents today are setting rules and boundaries and making their children responsible for their own behavior. "That's a good thing".....aka Martha Stewart.
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krys
Sudo - I do know of children such as your daughter. I've run into perhaps about a dozen or so that I had to deal with personally, and few parents were still trying at your stage of the game. You and your wife, and indeed the rest of your family have my deepest respect for your stand, for not backing down and not giving up.
You probably have already done this, but if she were my daughter I would insist on a full complete medical exam including a screening by an endocrinologist. Hormones, besides those that rage in teenagers naturally can wreak havoc and can be adjusted.
Another possibility might be a full and complete neurological exam by a competent neurologist. Things they know today are remarkable. I don't want you to go down another blind alley, but it might be worth a shot.
Your child has been like this a long time, but I have seen more than one youngster over night change into an absolute terror, and upon exam, was found to have suddenly become diabetic. I just state this to reinforce the idea of hormones acting in strange ways, I think if your child was diabetic you'd have known it long ago.
On another note:
It is true that her record may be expunged at 18 but there is no guarantee that she will get there (to 18) without some other offense which will cause it to not be. There are situations, at least in NJ, where that is not true. Here, after a certain age, their behavior must be letter perfect...not even a traffic ticket. I do hope she can and will control herself after that age,and it would be good if she started practicing that now.
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Sushi
This is just a guess, GT, but I suspect you've never had kids (please correct me if I'm wrong). While I may or may not condone what the mother did, I certainly understand it.
(sorry, couldn't keep the names straight tonight)
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Psalm 71 one
I read one article that said the mother stood with her daughter the whole time. I'm with Sudo and Bramble--sometimes these extremes are truly necessary. In MD we had a neighbor girl who was like your daughter, Sudo. The middle child, single Mom--Mom was doing her best to properly care for her child-- this child did need meds-- and wouldn't take them! She was constantly in trouble-- at school, with her Mom and with the police. She threatened to kill her Mom. The Mom didn't believe it would really happen--but who knows? This Mom eventually kicked the girl out of the house-- tough love. I was glad to be a shoulder for the Mom that day--and partly understood why she eventually let the kid come back. The kid behaved for awhile, took her meds--and started becoming a mon ster again just about the time we were moving to GA. I think about the Mom a lot and worry about her and the other two left at home--I hope I don't read about them in the news.
I aplaud this Mom in OK--and PSHAW! about the psychological damage! So the kid was okay psychologically before that? yeahhhh, riiiiight! <_<
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GT
For the record, I have two kids.
I stand by my comment. Why should it be ok for a 14 year old to be treated that way, if it's wrong for it to be done to an adult. Does a 14 year old have any less human rights? So what if she's not doing her school work. It's her life to do what she wants with it.
Sudo, sorry about you situation. I'm sure it's rough. I think medical exams is a good suggestion. I had the same problem myself and it was medical related. When your body is not in order, it throws you for a loop and you can't think straight.
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dmiller
I hate the word *appropriate*!!!
Either say *good* or *bad*, but don't waffle on yer description,
by trying to put it in *PC* terms.
Call a spade a spade -- ok?? Either say it is good, or bad (your choice).
Personally -- (imo) the young lady learned a lesson, and was none the worse for wear.
Psychological abuse doesn't happen this way. Abuse is continued action, and since the mom was there -- ya can't make that call and make it stick. :)
if I f##### up like this, I was grounded, lost my allowance for the week (had to to the chores regardless), and no tv for whatever determined amount of time (by my folks).
Given a choice, I might have stood out on the street corner too.
And The mother in this story (imo) made a good point ----
If the kid wasn't willing to work for grades, they surely weren't going to work for money.
*Will work for Food* was a very distinct possibility for her in her future, had her grades been as bad as they could have been.
Oh ---@*&$ -- What am I saying???
Even those with college degrees *work for food* -----
But we don't have to stand on street corners, to advertise. :)
David
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dmiller
Greasy Tech -- I'm gonna back off a bit here. Is this your child your are speaking of, or the one from the original post???
Either way -- I feel extremely sorry for you (or anyone) who thinks that a 14 year old teen-ager has more rights than the parent.
Sorry. I'm *old-school*, and it worked for me and my generation -- so there is no way I can see this as a viable entity. Matter of fact -- IMO, I see this kind of thinking leading us deeper into the deep *doo-doo* (who said that ?? Bush number 41??!!) :D, that is leading this country to Hell in a handbasket..
Kids have human rights --- yes.
Bur they need to be in subjection to authority (their parents) as well. If the parent can't lead the kid, they ain't a'gonna be led --- period.
And then -- that *work for food* sign might be a very real entity in that kid's life. :(
David
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Digitalis
As a parent who has had one son go through the rebel years and a daughter just finishing up the rebel years, I think this is great ........ humiliation goes both directions, if you can dish it out the teen better be able to take it ...... as parents in an ever changing world we must come up with new ideas to get through to our adolescent grown ups .... I think the mother from Oaklaohoma City is quite inventive.
My third child who is almost a teen swears he is NOT going to rebel ..... to much trouble he says ..... he has a better way of getting what he wants ........
You Go Mom
Digi
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Morgan
"Why should it be ok for a 14 year old to be treated that way, if it's wrong for it to be done to an adult."
The reality is, this is EXACTLY what happens to some adults. And yes, it is sad. Better for this girl to understand at 14 due to an hour or two of humiliation what the long-term consequences of her decisions could be, than for her to find out the hard way when she is 30 and it is much harder to go back and finish school.
" Does a 14 year old have any less human rights?"
YES. Until she is working and paying her own bills, she has the right to follow the rules of the person who IS paying the bills.
"So what if she's not doing her school work. It's her life to do what she wants with it. "
You have got to be kidding. 14-year-olds are dumber than dirt. They see nothing beyond the minute or hour in which they are currently living. They have no clue the decisions they are making today will affect their entire future.
If it truly were "her life to do with what she wants", then why does she still need to live at home with a parent? Why does any 14-year-old? If most 14-year-olds are capable of making adult decisions, why aren't they out in the real world taking care of themselves?
Sheesh - that is like saying, "go ahead and get pregnant at 14, after all, it's your life to do with what you want."
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
so greasy i gotta ask...if your kids don't want to do homework etc that is ok with you?
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GT
Why does this thread remind me of sitting through one of Craig's corpse meetings, with him trashing someone for hours, then calling it loving? *GROAN*
Even have a lively discussion of the use of English words. Sorry, but a word that means suitable for a particular person, condition, occasion, or place is appropriate usage. Can't do much about John Kerry using the same word. I hardly use "good" or "bad" anymore, since they don't have much meaning outside of a religoious context and seem so black and white. "Hate" is a another word I tend to disdain. And the country is only going to hell for those who believe such a place exist.
I don't buy into the master-slave model of parenting. The "I pay the bills, you do what I tell you to do because I'm in charge." I've never seen it work. It may get a shot-term desirable response, but a kid will usually drop it at first opportunity. And why wouldn't they?
And no, I never said kids have more rights than adults, nor do I think it. I do think they have basic human rights and should be treated as a human, not as an animal (or a slave). I also do not subscribe to hitting children. If it is wrong for someone to hit me as an adult, then it is wrong for them to hit me when I'm a child. This is basic human rights. Calling hitting a child spanking does not change the actuality of what is being done. And before the Bible thumpers jump on me, consider that the word for "rod" used in reference to disciplining a child is the same used in Psalm 23, "Thy rod and Thy staff comfort me." I've never been comforted by someone hitting me. And show me a shepherd that inflicts physical pain on his sheep.
I agree with this. Revocation of privileges. It reflects how life works. When you perform well, you get more priveleges. When you don't, you have less privileges. When I perform well at my job, I make more money (in general -- life isn't always fair). If I perform poorly, or with blatant disregard, I risk losing my revenue stream.
From everything I've seen and read, along with my own experience, suggests that positive reinforcement is the most powerful motivator. Kids, and adults, will do things for fear of suffering consequences, but only the minimum is done -- just enough to say it was done. Fear is a powerful motivator and is a part of everyday life. But doing something because you want to do it is a whole other story.
Do you not recall the times your parents were proud of you, told you so, stood up for you (if they ever did)? Do you not recall craving this? Or how about when you did something stupid (as everyone does occasionally) and they were there for you to help, not make you feel like an idiot? What's going to happen when this girl next does something wrong, ends up with her face in the ground and needs her mother to help pick her back up? Will she look to her for help or will she be afraid to do so, thinking she might drive her deeper into the dirt with more public humiliation?
If this mother really believes her daughter is going to be homeless and begging on the streets because she isn't taking school serious, then take her down on the streets and have her talk with the homeless people so she can see what that kind of life is like. But don't humiliate her in front of everyone. That has to be one of the worst things a parent could do. It severly damages the trust the child would have for her. Why would the girl ever tell her mother what is actually bothering her and affecting her performance at school?
I prefer to have my kids feel and know that they can tell me anything and I'll be there for them. I never want them afraid of me or think I have a low opinion of them. Even if they turn out to be the scourge of society, they will always know that I will support them in whatever they choose to do and do whatever I can to help them and will always be proud of them. To have it any other way, I might as well shoot myself since there wouldn't be anything left in life to live for.
I'm not perfect and definitely not an expert at raising kids. Far from it. But when some ****ing pervert did some God awful thing to my little girl, the kind of thing most kids never tell anyone out of shame, she told me immediately. And I was right there to help her, tell her she didn't do anything wrong, that I was so proud of her doing the difficult thing of telling me about it. I helped her back on her feet, made sure she was ok, then went and kicked that ****ing pervert's foot (well, legally -- just don't put the two of us in the same room because only one of us would be walking out). The thought of her not feeling she could tell me something like this, that I might react with scorn and/or consequences (whether justified or not) and living with it buried inside her the rest of her life is just God awful.
So yes, I think what this mother did is disgusting. It might bring her grades up a bit for awhile, but it also drives a wedge between them. Life is going to throw more crap at this girl. Is she going to trust her mother to help her? Being humiliated in public is something one does not easily forget.
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J0nny Ling0
I'm with the Mom in Edmond, Oklahoma. Good thinking, that. I think that Society Today is way too lenient on these "poor and fragile" Children. Consequences for their actions are a good thing. If the Child has the "right" to humiliate her parents and their Family Name by sassing her teachers in HS, then I guess a dose of humiliation is in order for the initial "humiliator".
Now, here is another method I'd never heard of until it happened to my daughter's HS boyfriend. Her boyfriend at that time (11th and 12th grade), lived in a very large household. The household consisted of a step dad, his step dad's teenaged daughter of the same age, and two sets of twin boys (wow!), and one other little brother, and of course, his Mom, and of course, his Ownself. If I counted correctly, that's nine people in a not so large house. For some reason, this kid, Nick was lucky enought to have his own room. Now, as it turned out, Nick began to get into the usual troubles of partying, drinking, lousy grades, and not keeping up with the houssehold chores. And so, do you know what the man of the house (the step dad) did as punishement?
He took the door off of his bedroom. No privacy. And for a teeneaged boy with raging hormones, this spelled disaster! And it also prompted him to get his act together. And each time he acted up, off came the door. I think this occurred about three times during my daughter's relationship with him. The relationship ended halfway through their senior year.
And on a humorous note, at their graduation ceremony, there was a little "program" type deal handed out that had pictures and individual comments from each of the 23 graduating seniors (small town). Also in this program deal was a thing call "Wills". This is where each student would "will" to other students certain things that they thought would be good for their friends to have. For instance my Daughters friend Amy said this; "And to Meagan, my dearst pal, I will to you the biggest most handsomest, and tenderhearted Nordic blonde haired guy for a boyfriend", and things like that. This was also a place where the graduating seniors got a little payback in when it came to folks that they had issue with, and faculty was not excluded.
At any rate, because my daughter had been treated poorly by Nick who had cheated on Meagan with one of Meagan's friends, but then made jokes about and badmouthed my daughter after she dumped him, my daughter willed him this little gem for all to read;
"And to Nick, my one time boyfriend: "I will to you at least some degree of maturity, hoping that one day you will Grow Up. I also will to you a door to your bedroom..."
The bottom line with me is that in Real Life, we pay prices for our mistakes. We all know this. And if we raise our kids without any real consequences for their actions, consequences that are unpleasant, then we will only raise kids with big "L's" on their foreheads...
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Linda Z
I agree that kids should suffer consequences for misbehaving, but I don't think public humiliation should be one of them.
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Morgan
"I don't buy into the master-slave model of parenting. The "I pay the bills, you do what I tell you to do because I'm in charge." I've never seen it work. It may get a shot-term desirable response, but a kid will usually drop it at first opportunity. And why wouldn't they?"
Sure they would. But isn't the goal to get the kid to move out eventually anyway? And don't we want them to be prepared for the real world when they do? In the real world, there will still be rules to follow. If they grow up thinking they can do whatever they fool please, they will be in for a very rude awakening some day and as an adult the price/consquences will be MUCH steeper.
"I do think they have basic human rights and should be treated as a human, not as an animal (or a slave)."a
I agree, when they behave like humans they should be treated like humans. But, if they want to behave like animals (and kids sometimes do) . . .
"I agree with this. Revocation of privileges. It reflects how life works. When you perform well, you get more priveleges. When you don't, you have less privileges. When I perform well at my job, I make more money (in general -- life isn't always fair). If I perform poorly, or with blatant disregard, I risk losing my revenue stream."
Exactly. If you perform poorly or with blatant disregard, then you will have to humiliate yourself by begging for food and money. Sounds like this mom gave her daughter a dose of real world consequences, which btw, are often more effective than the unnatural consequences we sometimes come up with off-the-cuff for our kids.
"From everything I've seen and read, along with my own experience, suggests that positive reinforcement is the most powerful motivator. Kids, and adults, will do things for fear of suffering consequences, but only the minimum is done -- just enough to say it was done. Fear is a powerful motivator and is a part of everyday life. But doing something because you want to do it is a whole other story"
Yes, positive reinforcement (when it is honestly deserved and properly given) is a powerful motivator. But postive reinforcement for good behavior without natural consequences for poor behavior is usually inadequate. It requires both to teach kids how to think before they act - to teach them that all decisions have a consequence, be it good or bad.
Yes, we want kids to do things because they WANT to do them. But in real life, we all at times have to do things even when we DON'T want to do them. I have to pay the bills whether I feel like it or not (and who really wants to pay bills???). So kids need to learn how to think and foresee the natural consequences of their choices. As parents, it is our responsibility to help them do this, by issuing natural consequences.
"Do you not recall the times your parents were proud of you, told you so, stood up for you (if they ever did)? Do you not recall craving this?"
All kids and many adults crave approval. But a healthy person will give THEMSELVES approval first (as in, it comes from inside) thereby lessening the need for approval from others.
" Or how about when you did something stupid (as everyone does occasionally) and they were there for you to help, not make you feel like an idiot? "
Ahhhh, but there is a trick to this. Allowing your kids to have consequences for bad choices does not have to make them feel like an idiot. It depends on how you handle it. First, you focus on the choice, not the child. Second, you don't react out of anger but instead show them a lot of empathy because they are now going to have to deal with the consequences of their decision. You feel bad for them as they pay the piper. This shows them you love them, while still allowing them to learn.
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Linda Z
Morgan said:
"Ahhhh, but there is a trick to this. Allowing your kids to have consequences for bad choices does not have to make them feel like an idiot."
And what part of standing in a public place holding a "Will work for food" sign wouldn't make a child feel like an idiot?
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