catholic church

[coolchef1248 @adelphia.net]

call me weird but my wife and i attended mass tonight and we found it very up lifting and ccomforting.

i may go back.

the priest was a young guy and i had met him about a year ago when i brought him a check for $1grand from my club as a donation when the furnace blew.

he invited me in for a brandy

i said no but i wished i would have

so what do you think about a guy who denounced the catholic church and is thinking of going back after 30 plus years?? :wacko:

Edited November 13, 2005 by coolchef1248 @adelphia.net

[socks]

Well, not being a drinker to speak of I can still appreciate the offer of a free brandy. I'd say give it a whirl.

Can't beat the stained glass.

[mstar1]

Apparently more than a few go back- - If it works for you-then have at it.

Kit and Mark ( and maybe some others) have found a home there that suits them very well, perhaps you will too

Edited November 13, 2005 by mstar1

[WordWolf]

It's not my speed,

but if it's yours,

more power to you.

[jardinero]

I took my older aunt to midnight mass out in Calif. a few years ago and was surprised how "Protestant" the church had become! This had a large mix of Filipinos who had an interesting mix of charasmatic background and "handwaving". Great music. Thoughtful prayer. Nothing like what I experienced in the 60s and early 70s.

My son attends a Catholic high school and we find it to be very ecumenical, welcoming of diverse faiths and very Christ centered. The teachers/administration model what they teach, which I find to be quite refreshing. He's in an O.T. Hebrew Scriptures class taught by a guy who's a former Eastern Orthodox priest with 2 doctorates in Hebrew scriptures and O.T. history - - definitely learning much more than I ever have about the O.T.!

So, I'd have to ditto the others - - if you feel comfortable there, go for it, Cheffie.

J.

[Belle]

To each his own. If that's where you feel comfortable and that's what lifts your spirit and makes you happy, then that's exactly where you need to be. :)

[oldiesman]

That's exactly the way I feel about folks still in twi as well.

[coolchef1248 @adelphia.net]

aw come on oldies

if i decide to go back to any church they are not going to rob me at gun point like twi does!

[oldiesman]

This is still America.

Folks are allowed to worship God how they choose, at whatever location they choose, and irrespective of a group's past.

Wouldn't you agree?

[Outin88.]

CoolChef,

I was raised in the RC church, so I know about their doctrines and practices many of which I disagree with. Myself personally, I would not go back.

This is still America.

Folks are allowed to worship God how they choose, at whatever location they choose, and irrespective of a group's past.

Wouldn't you agree?

Yes, I agree Oldies, but consider that folks in TWI are taught to be afraid to leave "the household" because something bad might happen to them, as opposed to other churches that teach and practice love without putting fear in people if they choose to leave. And most churches, including the RC church will welcome you back with open arms, thats the loving and godly thing to do. Does TWI do this?

I wonder how many would stand with TWI if they were not taught to be afraid to leave?

[oldiesman]

Doesn't the RC church do the same thing, i.e., put "fear of leaving" in folks?

They did years ago, maybe they have changed.

In any case, I don't automatically assume that twi folks are "afraid to leave".

I leave open the possibility that they *want* to be there... just like the RC folks.

[Outin88.]

Doesn't the RC church do the same thing, i.e., put "fear of leaving" in folks?

They did years ago, maybe they have changed.

In any case, I don't automatically assume that twi folks are "afraid to leave".

I leave open the possibility that they *want* to be there... just like the RC folks.

Well, honestly I haven't been involved with the RC church many years so, I'll say it's possible they may still put some fear in people. However, I do know people that went back and were welcomed lovingly.

As for TWI, there have been many testimonies of people, Catcup comes to mind, where TWI told them bad things would happen if they left "the household" of TWI. So I'm not assuming here.

People have to decide not to believe TWI's fear filled bogus prophecies in order to leave.

When I left there was no real fear to leave, in the earlier days, TWI did welcome some folks back that had left, so maybe your thinking of those days, but from the testimonies I've seen at the cafe in the past few years, people are afraid to leave and afraid to look at the internet, and afraid to talk with us who have left.

Edited November 14, 2005 by Outin88.

[Nottawayfer]

You should go wherever you feel comfortable and where you feel you are getting what you want out of church.

[rascal]

I know some really sharp people that attend the catholic church here......I also know a great mormon lady and many methodists and baptists as well....they are loving, spiritually sharp people that I see the fruit manifested in each of their lives that identify them as being *of the spirit*......it seems to me....that God is able to work within whatever framework in which we allow him access....The trick is to pick a forum which you personally enjoy.

On the other hand concerning twi Oldies, I`d have to say that there is a major difference between them and most churches....for instance, I have to say that in the 15 years that I have been out.....I have YET to see any one of my my teen aged daughters required to sexually service a minister in any of the churches that we have associated with in our years since leaving twi, as so many of our sisters were required to do when involved.......nor have I been required to abort a single one of my pregnancies in service to God as a requirement of continued good standing with any of the organizations that I have chosen to fellowship with since leaving.....

I personally have not nor have I seen a single person have to endure a spiritual leader screaming in my face berzerk in vein popping spittle flying rage and justifying their vile behavior as *rightious anger*....like when I was in twi

I have not seen a single pastor in all of these years scream obscenities from the pulpit, villify fellow members, dividing families, or ostracising a single member.

According to the scriptures in galations.... the actions of the twi ministry leaders clearly lable TWI as a spiritually unhealthy place to be....

Edited November 14, 2005 by rascal

[oldiesman]

On the other hand concerning twi Oldies, I`d have to say that there is a major difference between them and most churches....for instance, I have to say that in the 15 years that I have been out.....I have YET to see any one of my my teen aged daughters required to sexually service a minister in any of the churches that we have associated with in our years since leaving twi, as so many of our sisters were required to do when involved.......nor have I been required to abort a single one of my pregnancies in service to God as a requirement of continued good standing with any of the organizations that I have chosen to fellowship with since leaving.....

On the other hand there have been many cases of pedophilia in the RC church.

Youngsters required to service the priests in the name of God.

And yet, folks still choose to fellowship with the RC church.

And folks still choose to fellowship with twi.

According to the scriptures in galations.... the actions of the twi ministry leaders clearly lable TWI as a spiritually unhealthy place to be....

If that is how we will judge, then the same holds true for RC church.

Let's not be hypocrites.

[rascal]

No hypocracy whatso ever...*I* said to look at the fruit of the spirit manifested in order to chose who is spiritually healthy to associate with....that is what scripture recomends in order to steer us clear of trouble.

The actions of twi leaders brand it as a spiritually unhealthy....SURE you may enjoy fellowshipping with darkness....but that doesn`t mean that it is necessarily good for one spiritually .

[oldiesman]

Actions of leaders notwithstanding,

any church that promotes the idea that salvation is works based (church, penance, mass, baptism, etc.) is not spiritually good.

Unless they have changed, these are requirements for salvation in RC church.

[rascal]

Twi was works based .... they used an even greater fear than loss of salvation for non compliance with their dogma....the fear of loss of God`s favor and protection, the threat of posession, and death when one didn`t do the *works* required to remain in good standing.

Twi required more *works* for access to God and his blessings than any church I have ever attended.

[coolchef1248 @adelphia.net]

rascal

you hit the nail on the head

thanks

[markomalley]

Actions of leaders notwithstanding,

any church that promotes the idea that salvation is works based (church, penance, mass, baptism, etc.) is not spiritually good.

Unless they have changed, these are requirements for salvation in RC church.

You know Oldies, I have heard and heard this crap constantly.

Let's look at this from a couple of different angles...

Rom 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

Consider this for a second, Oldies, how can one declare the Lord Jesus unless you do what he told us to do?

And where do we get this information on what we're supposed to do?

Well, the Apostle Paul said, "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."

Pretty good advice: do what the Bible says. Do what we (the apostles) told you to do verbally, as well.

So let's look at the particular things you are criticizing from the Catholic Church:

You complain about baptism:

Of course, there's Matt 28:19 "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"

(interesting the next verse: "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.")

Of course, the Gospels are not really part of the Bible, though, are they Oldies. So let's continue to look:

Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

Acts 22:16 "And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."

Rom 6:3-4 "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."

Gal 3:27 "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ."

There's more...in the scriptures.

How about what the apostles did?

Please refer to the Didache, written around AD 70 -- allegedly by the apostles:

Chapter 7. Concerning Baptism. And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if you have no living water, baptize into other water; and if you cannot do so in cold water, do so in warm. But if you have neither, pour out water three times upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whoever else can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before.

So do you have something against the Bible, Oldies?

You complain about penances:

Well, we know that Jesus was able to forgive sins (Matt 9:6 - "But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins")

We also know that Jesus delegated that authority to the apostles:

Matt 18:18 "Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

John 20:23 "Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; [and] whose soever [sins] ye retain, they are retained."

John 20:23 "Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; [and] whose soever [sins] ye retain, they are retained."

So Jesus delegated the power to remit sins to the apostles.

So how does one leverage that? Confession, duh. See 1 John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

Again, to see what actually happened in the first century church, we can refer to the Didache:

From Chapter 4: "In the church you shall acknowledge your transgressions, and you shall not come near for your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life."

So, maybe you are not talking about the sacrament, but about the concept of being penitent:

Matt 6:16-18 Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou fastest, anoint thine head, and wash thy face; That thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly.

Note that he didn't say, "Don't fast..." he said "Don't, in fasting, make a public statement for public praise"

And then 1 Cor 7:5 "Defraud ye not one the other, except [it be] with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency."

(I know the context is about marital relations, but the point is that the concept of fasting and prayer is a form of penitential act...)

Are you referring to some other form of penance? Perhaps giving up goods (like the apostles)?

So, again, do you have something against the Bible, Oldies?

You said something about the Mass

1Cr 11:23-27 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the [same] night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake [it], and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also [he took] the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink [it], in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

And, again, from the Didache (written in AD 70): "Chapter 14. Christian Assembly on the Lord's Day. But every Lord's day gather yourselves together, and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. But let no one who is at odds with his fellow come together with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be profaned. For this is that which was spoken by the Lord: "In every place and time offer to me a pure sacrifice; for I am a great King, says the Lord, and my name is wonderful among the nations." "

So, you'll pardon me if I have a hard time seeing works here in this. I just see doing the Word and doing according to the first century church. Wasn't that the idea?

So what was it that you had against the Bible, Oldies?

[oldiesman]

So to sum up your post, Mark, you believe that salvation is by works?

[bliss]

and..............................that babies need to FAST before they get dunked? :blink:

[Oakspear]

So to sum up your post, Mark, you believe that salvation is by works?

Mark didn't say that.

He wrote out in detail why he believed and practiced as he did, and you mischaracterized it.

There are plenty of things that the bible says to do, but aren't "salvation"; for example, it apparently says to speak in tongues, but doing it doesn't earn you salvation.

[socks]

Hmmm...if we're talking about whether the Way taught salvation by works, the answer would be no, at least for most of it's history that I know of. But it's performance based teachings and fellowship could certainly create the same kind of environment if all a person was hearing about was what they were doing - their "works". The best part of Christian fellowship should be good times, happy times, even in hard times. Encouragement, understanding, forgiveness, these are the hallmarks of a good church fellowship in my opinion.

But, choosing the lesser of two evils is still choosing evil. If all the Way is to a person is a place that's not as bad as someplace else, how good can that really be?

I like most Roman Catholics I meet, on average. They're about like everyone else, as befuddled about what they believe as most. I was raised Roman Catholic with 10 years of RC teaching. There's the Pope, the priesthood, Communion, confession of your sins to a priest (if you can find one - I know one church that doesn't have any confessional sacrament anymore, they just ask people to do it themselves, which is kind of weird to an old schooler like me, but hey).

Saints, the Virgin Mary as your Mediatrix, prayer rituals like the rosary. Lots of stuff to keep you busy if you go whole hog into it. For me it's just too weird, almost as weird as shopping in a Wal Mart or trying to pick brands out in grocery stores while navigating the aisles, but that's me.

I do like the churches though, the architecture, stained glass. The latin mass - I was an "altar boy" so even still have some semblance of understanding of some of the mass, but overall the latin mass rocks - the way it sounds. Plus churches are usually big, so they have that echo thing going. They provide an interesting choice of locations for a meditative hour or so.

Edited November 16, 2005 by socks

[socks]

Not that this is the Doctrinal Forum ( can't be, too many people posting ) but the subject of works "versus" grace has intrigued me of late, the semantics of it.

If the question was framed like this:

"Lord, what must I do to be saved?"

Would the answer be:

"Nothing. You don't have to do anything"....... ?

Framed another way, the question again:

"Lord, what must I do to be saved? Shall I...."

And the answer again:

"No - you're doing something. Stop it. I said don't do anything".

If the same question were asked and the answer was:

"Believe on me and what I've done for you, and you will be saved".........

....is the answer "something"?

I'm not posing the question to be funny or argumentative. Just that I think for many years when I thought of "saved by grace" I associated it with doing "nothing". But I'd say that it should be associated with something, believing on what Jesus Christ accomplished for me, in my stead, and that's now being provided to me as a "gift"....If I believe on Him. That's something.

Isn't it? Granted it's not a merit system where I earn certain things from God based on my performance, it's not "works of the flesh" that make me cool with God. But there is a working of the heart involved, as to how I see myself and how I see God.

Questions that come to mind - what and how much do I have to know about Jesus Christ to "believe on Him" and be saved? What do I have to understand? Accept and embrace?

If I thought I was just fine as I was but hey, Romans 10:9 and 10 gives me even MORE, would I be "saved"?

Is that what Jesus Christ accomplished, and why?

Okay, back to the topic at hand.

Edited November 16, 2005 by socks