Ok, I get it. See, I live in cornfield country and for a minute there, I thought you were talking about the old man up on the ridge that makes the good corn squeezin's.
So what were the sources for VPW's plagiarism that he so skillfully presented via rhetorical grandiloquence of his trance-inducing homiletics? As WW as pointed out in another thread, obviosly Leonard, Stiles, & Bullinger. As we dig the sources of TWI a bit deeper, we see that VPW's kantian rose-colored glasses were, well, much more so metaphysical than biblical.
The works of Leonard, Stiles, & Bullinger were the proximate sources for vpw's plagiarism. TWI, in a doctrinal-theoretical sense, falls into the "Word of Faith" movement. The quasi-proximate source of this movement can be traced to E.W.Kenyon, the progenitor of the extant 'word of faith' movement.
Kenyon was educated at the Emerson College of Oratory, formerly the Boston Conservatory of Elocution & Dramatic Art, & prior to this it was a component of Boston University, the Monroe School of Oratory, founded in 1872 by Dr. Lewis B. Monroe, a Professor @ BU.
When BU closed the Monroe School after Dr. Monroe's death, it was Charles Wesley Emerson who resurrected the school, hence the Emerson College of Oratory. {Interesting how 'oratory' and 'homiletics' have such a nice alignment & harmony}. Emerson had served as a minister of the Congregationalist, Universalist, & Unitarian denominations. He studied law but did not complete his degree ostensibly due to health reasons. However, to buff his image, he did receive a bogus medical school degree from the Eclectic Medical College of Pennsylvania, which was not a medical school at all, but merely a diploma mill that sold diplomas en masse to all comers.{Smacks of vpw's bogus doctorate from Pike's Peak diploma mill}.
Charles Emerson was a collector of religions, an eclectic in the truest sense of the word. His religioius ideology was a veritable smorgasbord of the numerous sources underlying New Thought Metaphysics: Sumerian-Egyptian-Greek-Roman pagan mythology, Platonism, Neoplatonism, Kaballah, Indian Upanishads & Vedas, Arcane Esoteric Spirituality, Gnosticism, Swedenborgianism, Theosophy, & American Spiritualism (Andrew Jackson Davis, followed by the Fox sisters, & later Arthur Ford), to name only a few influences.
New Thought Metaphysics had its more proximate origins with Phineas Parkhurst Quimby, who was influenced by a traveling Frenchman, Charles Poyen, who was lecturing in New England on the topic of Anton Mesmer's hypnotism (aka, "animal magnetism"). Mesmer's influences derived from the revitalization of the arcana in Europe at the time, the arcana tracing back to ancient pagan mythologies.
Therefore, as disappointing as it is for some to realize, most (? nearly all) of the information in B.G. Leonard's class regarding so-called supernatural 9 maninfestions, has its origins in, well, uh, non-biblical sources, and therefore the same goes for vpw's pfal & lcm's wap. There is nothing new under the sun, just a bit of repackaging, bringing glorious 'new light' to a current generation who is unfamiliar with the ancient arcana.
It is the charismatic, oratorical, homiletic skills of the new pseudo-spiritual entrepreneur, to market his or her counterfeit product, via covert deceptive recruiting, onto the transiently vulnerable & hurting souls who have the misfortune to be around when the mind-bending 'new light' arcana is spewed forth. Nothing like eyes-wide-open trance induction and conversational naturalistic trance induction to 'set you free' from your true historical self and identity, & begin the hellish journey into the non-conscented oppression of a cultic pseudo-self and pseudo-identity, which override and displace your true historical self.
I should state that the arcana, as such, are just the arcana; just call them what they are & not lie about its origins. BUT when Teutonic Furher Vierville endeavors to conceal the arcana as "...the Word as it has not been know since the First Century..," I have a problem with the the fraud, misrepresentation, & lying.
If the jar say its pickles, but there is in actuality mayonaise inside, then what we have is really mayo, & vice versa. Afterall, VPW said so in pfal, even our father, who art in fountain, hollow be thy name......
As disappointing as it is for some ex-twi to realize, the vast majority, if not essentially all, of the information in B.G. Leonard's class regarding the so-called 9 (supernatural) “manifestations” (of holy spirit), has its origins in non-biblical sources, and therefore the same goes for VPW's PFAL & LCM’s WAP.
Of the TWI materials directly unrelated to the “manifestations” per se, essentially all of these TWI teachings are once again seen to be contaminated by TWI’s metaphysical proclivities and spin: twi’s bizzare hermetic “christ” of hybridized pagan mythological origin; twi’s heavy emphasis on its confabulated version of the “mystery;” TWI’s strange obsession with the Pauline Epistles over all other biblical writings, which epistles are regarded by many academics as being of strong Gnostic character; & others too numerous to mention.
There is nothing new under the sun. VPW / TWI knowingly utilized wholesale metaphysical repackaging of scripture. VPW’s hermetic “new ‘light’” regarding the scripture in general, and the “manifestations” in particular, was & is recycled arcana.
VPW realized the deep intrigue & interest that the Arcane would generate, as it always has, for its ancient roots lie very deep in the subconscious mind of all of humanity. VPW was not searching for power for abundant living, nor was he searching for the supposed long lost truths of the first century. His goal was to become wealthy by whatever means. His objectives were met by marketing the Arcane with a biblical façade.
The entire “ministry” of TWI was & is a scam, consisting of the exciting bait of western esoteric spirituality, with a subsequent switch to fear-based hyper-legalism. The bait of course had to have a grand illusion of grace and love, in order to facilitate not only the initial recruitment, but also to enhance the hellish downward spiral into mind-bending way-brain. The entrapment of twi members, which was purposefully and strategically designed, employed techniques/practices/deeds/actions/behaviors of unethical packaged persuasion. The “beliefs” were really irrelevant to Wierwille’s purposes, it’s just that the Arcane with a Biblical façade was the easiest for lazy VPW to develop & market.
OM, perhaps you are not your own (true historical self), just maybe you were bought with a price, you were forged with the non-consented mental manipulation of a homiletics’ master. Determine what need the Arcane fills in your life, & you might discover an explanation for your irrational devotion to the Hierophantic Hermes of our time, your ‘father’ in the metaphysical ‘Word,’ Herr Vierville.
OM, I refuse to enter into a battle with you. It's just too dang frustrating. You already know how I feel and I already know how you feel and we're just never going to agree on this.
OM, I refuse to enter into a battle with you. It's just too dang frustrating. You already know how I feel and I already know how you feel and we're just never going to agree on this.
(from the Christian Research Journal, Fall 1989, Volume 12 Number 2).
George M. Lamsa's books and translations of the Bible have become a fixture in Christian bookstores across the nation. Lamsa published 21 books by the time of his death in 1975. Four of these, plus his version of the Bible, were published by A. J. Holman, a well-known Bible and book publisher. Currently, Spring Arbor distributes them to Christian bookstores nationwide.
For nearly 50 years Lamsa was a popular speaker at conferences and churches, published the periodical Light for All, and spoke on the radio program "Lessons for Living." He also founded the Aramaic Bible Society and Calvary Missionary Church. Many groups and writers quote Lamsa as a Bible scholar.
There are several reasons for Lamsa's popularity. First, his books are engaging and very readable. Second, his comments on the life and customs of Bible times are engrossing to twentieth century Westerners. Third, people are intrigued and awed by Lamsa's claim that he was reared in the same part of the world Jesus lived, thus participating in biblical customs and language, and is hence uniquely able to reveal the Bible's idioms, translate the Bible accurately, and disclose its true meaning.
Lamsa's Christian readers commonly make the following charitable assumptions about his life and work: They believe Lamsa was an evangelical Christian teacher and that he accepted all the major biblical teachings held by the church. They think Lamsa absorbed a culture like that of Bible times which enabled him to accurately interpret Scripture. They further believe he held the Bible in high esteem and that he accurately translated it.
In this article we will closely examine each of these assumptions with a view to gaining a clearer picture of Lamsa's work. This will enable us to better respond to the man and his claims.
LAMSA'S TEACHINGS: BIBLICAL OR CULTIC?
Anyone who closely reads Lamsa's books will notice that he seldom explicitly enunciates his beliefs. In fact, Lamsa stated that he purposely tried to avoid doctrinal, theological, and controversial matters and passages.[1] When he does deal with a controversial topic, he will typically mention some common views without stating his own. For instance, when he addresses Luke's account of angels at Jesus' ascension, he comments that many faiths hold to a belief in personal angels and demons, but he neglects to say that he himself does not.[2]
Lamsa's motives and message are also made difficult to discern by his inconsistency: some of his writings seem evangelical, while others are far removed from the biblical faith. This may be due to an evolution of his thought away from biblical teaching or to adjusting his wording to his audiences' desires.
We gain insight into Lamsa's true message and his approach to interpreting Scripture by reflecting on his upbringing. George Lamsa was born near the Turkish/Iraqi border about 1892 and lived there until about 1915. This area has been overrun by one warring country after another for centuries. Lamsa remembers thousands of his Armenian people being massacred, starved, or forced from their homeland by Moslems; he narrowly escaped death himself. Rival tribes were in constant conflict, highlighting their political, cultural, and religious differences. The history of Lamsa's Eastern church is full of divisions, including such competing groups as the Monophysites, Nestorians, and Jacobians. (This even led to alternate alphabets for their common language.)
These experiences affected Lamsa's message and interpretation of Scripture in several ways. Above all, Lamsa sought a "new world order" in which "the light of the gospel would be shared, racial and class barriers would be eliminated, and national boundaries would be eliminated."[3] Accordingly, Lamsa interprets Jesus' Sermon on the Mount (in his book appropriately titled The Kingdom on Earth) as a commandment for world peace, international understanding, and the overthrow of enslaving governments by meekness and love. Lamsa founded the Christian Mohammedan Society in 1921 to pursue unity by emphasizing common ground. Lamsa's desire to unite nations into a universal state led him to avoid matters of dogma and make many concessions to the beliefs of other faiths, seeking the lowest common denominator among religions.
On Salvation and Non-Christian Religions
Lamsa attempts to unite world religions in part by eliminating the uniqueness of Jesus and His atoning sacrifice on the cross. He follows the lead of the metaphysical (or "mind science") cults by redefining sin as mere error or (at worst) evil, not as moral disobedience to the Creator which deserves punishment from Him. Salvation in Lamsa's view is simply knowing Truth and "understanding the good"[12] -- a view which reduces Jesus from the essential suffering Savior to the dispensable model man. Christ died, Lamsa says in his notes on John 3:16, to show us meekness and the existence of life hereafter, not to atone for our sins.[13] He thus contradicts the central theme of the whole Bible.
Lamsa focuses on man as his own savior rather than viewing Jesus Christ in that roll. Therefore, he extols any prominent person, whether Christian or not, as one who has tapped God's power. Lamsa praised "humble prophets" like Isaiah and Jeremiah and "inspired men" like Marconi and Edison all in the same breath because "they relied on the hidden power, the power of God, the power of their indwelling self....one must be able to contact the spiritual forces, which are the only true power. All power belongs to God and comes from Him."[14]
Lamsa's unbiblical views of sin, salvation, and God -- and his move to a metaphysical interpretation of Scripture -- helpedhim to reconcile differences between Judaism, Christianity, and Islam (as well as other religions). He denounces as "ignorant" those teachers who claim the three religions are incompatible and adds: "The adherents of these three great religions believe in one God, the holy prophets, the Scriptures, resurrection, Judgment Day and the Life hereafter. On the other hand, a greater part of the differences between them are due to the doctrines and the teachings of men, and the traditions of the elders."[15]
On the Psychic Realm
Lamsa's views of healing, Satan, demons, and prophecy are closer to the psychic perspective of metaphysical teaching and occultism than a biblical orientation. Jesus, he infers, had no power to heal, but only spoke "a word of comfort"[16] which most sick people never received: "At times out of hundreds of sick persons who were brought to him only a few were healed, those who had faith in him. Others whose bodies were not cured left the place cursing and shouting insults."[17] Lamsa sometimes removes the supernatural elements from Gospel accounts of healing. For instance, he implies that Simon Peter's mother-in-law was not supernaturally healed, but her rising to work allowed her no time to think about her mild fever until it finally left her (Luke 4:38-39). When he does allow that a healing may have occurred, he attributes it to the faith, understanding, or behavior of the person healed rather than to Jesus Christ's inherent power.
Lamsa implicitly denies the objective existence of a personal Devil and demons. "Demons," he says, is a way of referring to insanity, or wrong thoughts, desires, or practices.[18] "Satan," Lamsa suggests, refers to error or opposition in various forms, and cannot be an objective evil power because God is the only power in the universe.[19] Lamsa's translation usually uses the word "insane" instead of "demon" and "opposition" instead of "Satan."
Lamsa spoke of psychic involvement in a speech at the Association for Research and Enlightenment (A.R.E.), a group which promotes medium Edgar Cayce and the pursuit of psychic phenomena. He encouraged use of the "talents" of Creative (psychic) Power manifesting through men and spotlighted his native Near Eastern people's claim to a "sixth sense": the ability to become aware of God through dreams, visions, intuition, and clairvoyance. He also spoke of their "seventh sense," a state of awareness "higher" than others, with which one can discern between good and evil.[20]
Lamsa's metaphysical theology is man-centered. It is man, he says, who causes his own problems, creates his own healing, creates his world by his own prayer, discloses the unknown by his clairvoyance, and relies on the power of his own indwelling self. In contrast, the Bible emphasizes that relying on self rather than God is foundational to all our problems, and that the way, truth, and life are found only in Jesus Christ.
LAMSA'S CULTURE: BIBLICAL OR NESTORIAN?
Lamsa's claim to be the preeminent authority on the meaning and translation of the Bible rests on his claim that he "was born and reared in a region in the near East which had escaped modernization, a region where the custom, manners and idioms of the ancient Aramaic language are still miraculously preserved to the present day."[27]
Even if it was true that the customs and place of Lamsa's birth matched those of biblical days, it would not automatically follow that he could accurately translate and interpret the Bible. Thousands of people shared Jesus' culture and yet misunderstood Him. Jesus' closest disciples repeatedly asked Him to explain His sayings and parables (Matt. 15:10-18), contradicted Him (Mark 8:31-33), and did the opposite of what He wanted (Luke 20:35-38, 49-51). Many others left Jesus because they found Him hard to understand (John 6:60-68). Lamsa and his followers display great naivete and/or egotism when they claim that Lamsa's Assyrian upbringing enabled him to interpret correctly.
Nonetheless, the question remains: Did George Lamsa's early life match the culture of the Bible? This claim is debunked by two key points which Lamsa never understood: First, Semites (including Jews and Lamsa's own ancestors) have varied greatly in culture. Second, his own Assyrian culture changed over the centuries.
The Bible and other ancient records describe Jews of different cultures. For instance, the Herodians were Roman in culture, educated in Greek, tolerant of all religions, and unfaithful to the Mosaic law. The Sadducees were politically Roman, but religiously temple Jews. The Hellenistic Jews (Acts 6:1) were raised outside Israel, spoke Greek, and were adjusted to life among the heathen. Aramaic-speaking Pharisees were lay leaders of Mosaic practice. The Essenes maintained a detached, communal, disciplined lifestyle while the Zealots sought to kill and overthrow the Romans. The customs and language of these groups differed even though they shared a common heritage, land, and time period.
Lamsa's Assyrian people, in contrast, are descendants of none of these groups and have a different land, racial heritage, religion, customs, time period, language, politics, education, and neighbors.
Asyrians are portrayed in the Bible as a race quite foreign to Jewish religion and customs (e.g., Isa. 28:11). The area of Lamsa's birth is called Armenia, Media, or Persia (Reza Shah changed the name to "Iran" in the 1930s). Armenia is 700 miles from Jerusalem (even though Lamsa calls Jesus his "neighbor"), far removed from Hebrew influence, but affected by Greek culture after Alexander the Great's conquest and 250 years of Greek rule.
While Jesus Christ walked the earth, Lamsa's forefathers were Zoroastrian, a religion which enjoyed royal approval in Persia and honored many ancient Iranian gods, including the popular idol Mithra. They repudiated the Mosaic law and its accompanying moral code and culture. Among the few things Armenia had in common with Israel in Jesus' time were their mutual hatred of Romans and a similar language. They also had a very small number of residents whose ancestors were forced to leave Israel seven centuries earlier in punishment for rejecting God and His prophets. It would therefore be foolish to say that Lamsa's idolatrous Iranian ancestors were a carbon copy of devout Jewish/Israelite culture.
The Evolution of Nestorian Culture
What about Lamsa's Christian heritage? He claims to be both Assyrian and Nestorian. First of all, Nestorian culture did not even bud until the second century when many converts were made in Armenia, and it was not until the fifth century that it flowered as the Nestorian church formed.
Strangely, Lamsa contends that his "biblical" culture survived unchanged from 4000 B.C. to the present.[28] Actually, his and every culture changes with time, locale, and especially contact with other cultures. Lamsa admits that in the last 2,300 years alone his people were overcome by the Greeks, Romans, pagans, Mohammedans, Mongols, Kurds, Russians, Turks, and British. Lamsa says that advancements in philosophy, theology, and other fields were "due to the combined labors of the Nestorians and the Arabs,"[29] that millions of Nestorians were forced t become Muslims,[30] and that European culture was "tearing the natural traditions of the [Eastern] people up by the roots"[31] already two generations before his birth. While some Assyrian customs may be ancient or similar to biblical customs(as several Mideastern cultures are), Assyrian culture is in many important respects different and has changed over the centuries.
There are also many dialects of Aramaic. Dwellers in Jerusalem noticed Peter's Galilean dialect (Matt. 26:73), even though he lived only 60 miles away. These dialects -- both representatives of western Aramaic -- differ even more noticeably from the dialects of eastern Aramaic used at Edessa (home of the Pedangta) and Lamsa's homeland.
Lamsa undoubtedly was an ambassador of Nestorian (not biblical) culture, with its unique alphabet, language, writings, customs, and church tradition. One prominent aspect of this culture is a strong anti-Greek bias which Lamsa manifests often. This bias stems from bitterness towards the largely Greek-speaking council which censured Nestorius.
Lamsa damages his credibility by wrongly asserting that "the Greeks occupied the Holy Land for only seven years, and there were not a half-dozen natives of Palestine who learned enough Greek in that time to carry on a conversation."[32] He also claims that converts outside Palestine only spoke Aramaic, and that most references to "Greek" people were mistranslated and should read "Arameans" or "Syrians."[33] Lamsa asserts that Jesus and His disciples never heard Greek spoken[34] and that no portion of the New Testament was originally written in Greek, but was first translated after Constantine's conversion in A.D. 318.[35] He assumes the Greek translators were deceitful and ignorant, intentionally adding and deleting passages and wrongly translating many parts.[36]
The only documentation Lamsa ever offers is a quotation of Josephus (Antiquities of the Jewsxx.12.1). While Lamsa takes him to mean that few Jews learned Greek, Josephus actually said that he himself lacked the precision and pronunciation in Greek which he desired.
LAMSA: EVANGELICAL SCHOLAR OR CULTIC FIGURE?
Lamsa considered himself to be the man God set aside and inspired for our times, and his followers still view him as such. One even senses in Lamsa's writings an implicit claim that he stands in the line of apostles with Moses, Jesus, Paul, and Mohammed. Lamsa explains his unique calling through editor Tom Alyea: "God had revealed to Lamsa his purpose and how it was to be done. It was a one-man job. In the Bible testimony is given that God spoke to man; however, it is not recorded where he spoke to a committee...Yes, only one man could translate the Bible from Aramaic. God knew it, and Lamsa knew it, and so it was."[49]
Lamsa also attempts to establish scholarly credentials as a means of gaining acceptance. He claims to have been born about 1892, and to have acquired an A.B. degree equivalent in 1907 and a Ph.D. equivalent in theology in 1908 from Archbishop of Canterbury's College, Turkey.[50] He also claims to have graduated from Episcopal Theology Seminary in Virginia[51] and to have studied at the University of Pennsylvania and Dropsie College.
Lamsa, however, appears to have exaggerated his academic credentials. First, he claims to have attained a Ph.D. at age 16, only one year after his A.B.[52] Second, there are no records of his graduation from a seminary, and his own writings suggest that he was never at any school long enough to attain any valid degree.
Lamsa's writing style reflects his exalted view of his own mission and character. He usually writes embellished narratives or discourses, not documenting either blanket assertions or detailed comments. For example, he dismisses his lack of supporting evidence for his theory that the New Testament was originally authored in Aramaic by saying, "What is a fact needs no defense."[53] He assumes that his peculiar habits, culture, superstitions, idioms, and musings all match and illuminate Scripture, resulting in often incorrect or simplistic interpretations. By contrast, scholars in the fields of New Testament studies and Aramaic offer detailed evidence, accept criticisms, and yield much more cautious and informed conclusions.
Have you actually read what his practices were Oldies?
The one that sticks out in my mind was where the daughters of the followers were interviewed.... daughters of his followers were required to become Koresches *brides* around the age of 14 and start bearing children for him.
One show .... the follower was saying that he believed or portrayed himself as Jesus at the second coming.
He had over twenty children from different *brides* It was considered quite the honor to be producing these children for his most highest.....ALL this practice of course backed up with intensive scriptural research.
Just your harmless garden variety church no doubt.....
Jkboehme, I read your stuff closely and haven't gotten an answer from you.
If PFAL and other classes and teachings taught in twi were basically nothing more than repackaged paganism, please reveal what are the true doctrines of Christianity?
Jkboehme, I read your stuff closely and haven't gotten an answer from you.
If PFAL and other classes and teachings taught in twi were basically nothing more than repackaged paganism, please reveal what are the true doctrines of Christianity?
You didn't read him as closely as you thought.
OM, I will leave it to those gsers inclined to habituate the doctrinal forum to enlighten us all on the
'true doctrines of Christianity.' My concerns do not lie in TWI doctrine, but in their unethical
actions/ practices/ deeds/ behaviors/ conduct.
He said he's focusing on ONE area, and not addressing ANOTHER area.
Have you actually read what his practices were Oldies?
Yes, this was covered in "Waco Rules of Engagement". Have you seen the film? The sheriff of the county where all this happened was interviewed and spoke about everything at Mt. Carmel.
Marriage is legal at the age of 14 in Texas. (or it was legal at that time...)
Also, consider biblical culture when they got married. very young.
There's no doubt their beliefs were different and strange to our culture. But they believed that Koresh was what the bible referred to as the "sinning messiah". Not Christ, but a Christ-like figure who would procreate elders who would be leaders in the millenium. That was the spirit in which these sexual encounters happened... for procreation. Everyone in their group knew about it and approved. This is vastly different from say, VP drugging someone and appropriating himself privately. There is no comparison.
The Branch Davidians was an offshoot of the Seven Day Adventist church. They believed Koresh was teaching accurately about the seven seals.
Wierd as all this sounds, folks have a right to their own religious beliefs in this country.
Doesn't make them dangerous -- that was part of the smear campaign to downplay the government's atrocious actions regarding this matter.
Our own government, when it usurps our constitutional liberties,*is dangerous*.
He said he's focusing on ONE area, and not addressing ANOTHER area.
Period.
A person who supposedly knows so much about "the counterfeit" and has so much concern and zeal to explain it, ought to at least have as much concern and zeal to expound about "the genuine". We may actually learn something of value.
Have you actually read what his practices were Oldies?
The one that sticks out in my mind was where the daughters of the followers were interviewed.... daughters of his followers were required to become Koresches *brides* around the age of 14 and start bearing children for him.
One show .... the follower was saying that he believed or portrayed himself as Jesus at the second coming.
He had over twenty children from different *brides* It was considered quite the honor to be producing these children for his most highest.....ALL this practice of course backed up with intensive scriptural research.
Just your harmless garden variety church no doubt.....
Yes, this was covered in "Waco Rules of Engagement". Have you seen the film? The sheriff of the county where all this happened was interviewed and spoke about everything at Mt. Carmel.
Marriage is legal at the age of 14 in Texas. (or it was legal at that time...)
Also, consider biblical culture when they got married. very young.
There's no doubt their beliefs were different and strange to our culture. But they believed that Koresh was what the bible referred to as the "sinning messiah". Not Christ, but a Christ-like figure who would procreate elders who would be leaders in the millenium. That was the spirit in which these sexual encounters happened... for procreation. Everyone in their group knew about it and approved. This is vastly different from say, VP drugging someone and appropriating himself privately. There is no comparison.
The Branch Davidians was an offshoot of the Seven Day Adventist church. They believed Koresh was teaching accurately about the seven seals.
Wierd as all this sounds, folks have a right to their own religious beliefs in this country.
Doesn't make them dangerous -- that was part of the smear campaign to downplay the government's atrocious actions regarding this matter.
Our own government, when it usurps our constitutional liberties,*is dangerous*.
Ok,
so you're saying that it was perfectly fine-moral AND legal-
for "David Koresh" to impregnate all the women in the kingdom
(did they all belong to the king?)
from age 14 and up,
because that's their ways,
although they are strange to us.
If you had sex with a 14-year old in the US with whom you were not married,
who was 1/2 your age, and she gave full consent in WRITING and VIDEO
ahead of time,
you'd still go to JAIL for "STATUTORY RAPE".
That's a CRIME in the US. Don't you know what the term "jailbait" is?
I'm unsure whether or not it is actually legal to marry a 14-year old in ANY state,
so I'll skip addressing that one.
The "culture" of the Branch Davidians was the US culture.
Waco is in TEXAS. That's in the US.
They get tv and radio-the same channels as the rest of us.
Etc, etc.
Further,
if you married someone, then had sex with a minor with whom you
are not married, that's "STATUTORY RAPE" and ILLEGAL in this
country.
Further,
if you married more than one minor,
that's "BIGAMY" and ILLEGAL in this country.
David Koresh broke the LETTER of the law with his boinking
the women of "his congregation",
no matter WHAT justification he gave.
You may have forgotten,
but "freedom of religion" does not allow you to commit
crimes as defined in the Laws of the US.
That was reiterated in the court documents presented to
twi in one of their cases.
People have the right to believe as they wish, and teach
as they wish, but they may not commit crimes, nor
incite to commit crimes, nor conspire to commit crimes.
===
Besides it being ILLEGAL,
it was also IMMORAL.
"David Koresh" abused his office
when he defined procedure and said all the women
were supposed to have sex with him.
Even if "everyone knew about it and approved",
you're still ignoring that when an authority figure
REDEFINES things for you, and establishes
social structures that REINFORCE that,
it doesn't steal all freewill from the person,
but it means they are no longer thinking in a
fair and objective fashion.
(Perhaps you still don't see that, ever.)
So,
it is wrong for a religious leader to take a woman
(or man), arrange things in his favour,
pressure him/her to have sex with him,
and claim it's perfectly fine.
WHETHER OR NOT HE DRUGS HIM OR HER.
It's wrong no matter WHO does it.
===========
It's so easy to tear down.
Maybe so, but each poster answers to his or her own conscience, Oldies.
Neither you nor I set policy, and can neither forbid nor compel posting on
a subject. He announced what he intends to do.
Don't like it? Complain to the admins.
You are very good at that too, Wordwolf.
Yeah, man, that prophet Nathan, he was a biggie on tearing down,
and that Jeremiah, too....
and those watchmen on the walls of the city-they were downers,
disturbing the quiet of the city and worrying everyone...
and Woodward and Bernstein, they were such alarmists....
so you're saying that it was perfectly fine-moral AND legal-
for "David Koresh" to impregnate all the women in the kingdom
(did they all belong to the king?)
from age 14 and up,
because that's their ways,
although they are strange to us.
For the Branch Davidians it was, this was their religious belief.
Doesn't make them "dangerous" and doesn't call for them to get killed.
And it wasn't "all the women in the kingdom", it was a selected number from the bible that they believed were going to be elders, after the seven seals came to pass.
So,
it is wrong for a religious leader to take a woman
(or man), arrange things in his favour,
pressure him/her to have sex with him, ...
There was no pressure.
This is what they all believed was God's Will for their lives.
You might want to watch the film and see for yourself what really happened.
I find that justification of statuatory rape, as well as bigamy, as well as the ultimate betrayal of ones authority .....to be deeply disturbing .....it is no wonder you are unable to acknowledge the true criminality and heinous nature of the betrayal by wierwille and his leaders.....nor comprehend the extent of the damage inflicted on his victims.
This puts me in mind of the term *seared conscience*
I only have to look into the trusting faces of my 14 and 17 yr old daughters ...their exhuberance...their charming innocence .... to understand how damnably wrong this betrayal of their trusting souls would be.
These sweet teenagers who are so willing to please, who so desperatly want to do the right thing, desperate to be aproved of by their peers and the adults that they respect...that they will do literally almost anything that one whom they respect and trusts deems Godly* or their spiritual *responsibiliy*
The betrayal of their earnest willingness to please by those childrens parents and minister is just sickening.
My daughters, at least one of them anyway , is the age where friends of mine were started to be pressured to have sex with wierwille and martindale....
It was ok according to wierwilles religious beliefs too...it was also ok to destroy these vulnerable youngsters when they wouldn`t be pressured.....there were a lot of sick things that were ok to be practiced in wierwilles religion....that doesn`t make it right spiritually, ethically, morally or legally.
It brings it home all over again how perverted these sick old bastards were to force themselves on these innocents.
so you're saying that it was perfectly fine-moral AND legal-
for "David Koresh" to impregnate all the women in the kingdom
(did they all belong to the king?)
from age 14 and up,
because that's their ways,
although they are strange to us.
For the Branch Davidians it was, this was their religious belief.
Attention Oldies
My religious beliefs state I am to have an exceedingly abundant life--that means by midnight today I want all funds from your bank accounts transferred to me as well as all personal property, title to your home and vehicles as well as any orther property you own.
WHAT??? you aren't going to comply???
Well then I'll just take them
WHAT?? If I do that you are going to call law inforcement????
Mo, the purpose of the ATF seige was publicity; had nothing to do with sexual acts.
Branch Davidians were also gun dealers... and that time, and in the Clinton Administration, the ATF was very anti-gun, and they wanted some major anti-gun publicity.
If you viewed the film, you would know all this.
Then QUIT parroting sicko logic.
This wasn't sicko logic to the Davidians.
That's a major reason why it wasn't a crime .... there was no criminal "intent".
In contrast, there was criminal intent on the part of the FBI murderers.
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rascal
You try to make a point oldies...that it was no big deal because these young teenaged girls *consented* ....... you know, there were many of us gals who did indeed *consented* to having sex in our ear
jkboehme
Returning to Doug Hyde’s observations, he stated that the Christian church had much to learn from the ideological totalist’s [communist’s] techniques, methods, and attitudes. Apparently VPW, as the to
WordWolf
The wizard of oz was a fraud.
"Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!"
If he worked in a cornfield,
he would be a cornfield wizard.
:)
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Bluzeman
Ok, I get it. See, I live in cornfield country and for a minute there, I thought you were talking about the old man up on the ridge that makes the good corn squeezin's.
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WordWolf
They were referring to the guy who preached in the cornfield
and died young from poisoning his body,
like Jerry Garcia.
Only Jerry was a nicer guy.
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jkboehme
So what were the sources for VPW's plagiarism that he so skillfully presented via rhetorical grandiloquence of his trance-inducing homiletics? As WW as pointed out in another thread, obviosly Leonard, Stiles, & Bullinger. As we dig the sources of TWI a bit deeper, we see that VPW's kantian rose-colored glasses were, well, much more so metaphysical than biblical.
The works of Leonard, Stiles, & Bullinger were the proximate sources for vpw's plagiarism. TWI, in a doctrinal-theoretical sense, falls into the "Word of Faith" movement. The quasi-proximate source of this movement can be traced to E.W.Kenyon, the progenitor of the extant 'word of faith' movement.
Kenyon was educated at the Emerson College of Oratory, formerly the Boston Conservatory of Elocution & Dramatic Art, & prior to this it was a component of Boston University, the Monroe School of Oratory, founded in 1872 by Dr. Lewis B. Monroe, a Professor @ BU.
When BU closed the Monroe School after Dr. Monroe's death, it was Charles Wesley Emerson who resurrected the school, hence the Emerson College of Oratory. {Interesting how 'oratory' and 'homiletics' have such a nice alignment & harmony}. Emerson had served as a minister of the Congregationalist, Universalist, & Unitarian denominations. He studied law but did not complete his degree ostensibly due to health reasons. However, to buff his image, he did receive a bogus medical school degree from the Eclectic Medical College of Pennsylvania, which was not a medical school at all, but merely a diploma mill that sold diplomas en masse to all comers.{Smacks of vpw's bogus doctorate from Pike's Peak diploma mill}.
Charles Emerson was a collector of religions, an eclectic in the truest sense of the word. His religioius ideology was a veritable smorgasbord of the numerous sources underlying New Thought Metaphysics: Sumerian-Egyptian-Greek-Roman pagan mythology, Platonism, Neoplatonism, Kaballah, Indian Upanishads & Vedas, Arcane Esoteric Spirituality, Gnosticism, Swedenborgianism, Theosophy, & American Spiritualism (Andrew Jackson Davis, followed by the Fox sisters, & later Arthur Ford), to name only a few influences.
New Thought Metaphysics had its more proximate origins with Phineas Parkhurst Quimby, who was influenced by a traveling Frenchman, Charles Poyen, who was lecturing in New England on the topic of Anton Mesmer's hypnotism (aka, "animal magnetism"). Mesmer's influences derived from the revitalization of the arcana in Europe at the time, the arcana tracing back to ancient pagan mythologies.
Therefore, as disappointing as it is for some to realize, most (? nearly all) of the information in B.G. Leonard's class regarding so-called supernatural 9 maninfestions, has its origins in, well, uh, non-biblical sources, and therefore the same goes for vpw's pfal & lcm's wap. There is nothing new under the sun, just a bit of repackaging, bringing glorious 'new light' to a current generation who is unfamiliar with the ancient arcana.
It is the charismatic, oratorical, homiletic skills of the new pseudo-spiritual entrepreneur, to market his or her counterfeit product, via covert deceptive recruiting, onto the transiently vulnerable & hurting souls who have the misfortune to be around when the mind-bending 'new light' arcana is spewed forth. Nothing like eyes-wide-open trance induction and conversational naturalistic trance induction to 'set you free' from your true historical self and identity, & begin the hellish journey into the non-conscented oppression of a cultic pseudo-self and pseudo-identity, which override and displace your true historical self.
I should state that the arcana, as such, are just the arcana; just call them what they are & not lie about its origins. BUT when Teutonic Furher Vierville endeavors to conceal the arcana as "...the Word as it has not been know since the First Century..," I have a problem with the the fraud, misrepresentation, & lying.
If the jar say its pickles, but there is in actuality mayonaise inside, then what we have is really mayo, & vice versa. Afterall, VPW said so in pfal, even our father, who art in fountain, hollow be thy name......
:blink:
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oldiesman
Jkboehme,
So then PFAL and other classes and teachings taught in twi were basically nothing more than repackaged paganism?
Ok, please reveal what are the true doctrines of Christianity?
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jkboehme
Please read the following very closely, OM.
As disappointing as it is for some ex-twi to realize, the vast majority, if not essentially all, of the information in B.G. Leonard's class regarding the so-called 9 (supernatural) “manifestations” (of holy spirit), has its origins in non-biblical sources, and therefore the same goes for VPW's PFAL & LCM’s WAP.
Of the TWI materials directly unrelated to the “manifestations” per se, essentially all of these TWI teachings are once again seen to be contaminated by TWI’s metaphysical proclivities and spin: twi’s bizzare hermetic “christ” of hybridized pagan mythological origin; twi’s heavy emphasis on its confabulated version of the “mystery;” TWI’s strange obsession with the Pauline Epistles over all other biblical writings, which epistles are regarded by many academics as being of strong Gnostic character; & others too numerous to mention.
There is nothing new under the sun. VPW / TWI knowingly utilized wholesale metaphysical repackaging of scripture. VPW’s hermetic “new ‘light’” regarding the scripture in general, and the “manifestations” in particular, was & is recycled arcana.
VPW realized the deep intrigue & interest that the Arcane would generate, as it always has, for its ancient roots lie very deep in the subconscious mind of all of humanity. VPW was not searching for power for abundant living, nor was he searching for the supposed long lost truths of the first century. His goal was to become wealthy by whatever means. His objectives were met by marketing the Arcane with a biblical façade.
The entire “ministry” of TWI was & is a scam, consisting of the exciting bait of western esoteric spirituality, with a subsequent switch to fear-based hyper-legalism. The bait of course had to have a grand illusion of grace and love, in order to facilitate not only the initial recruitment, but also to enhance the hellish downward spiral into mind-bending way-brain. The entrapment of twi members, which was purposefully and strategically designed, employed techniques/practices/deeds/actions/behaviors of unethical packaged persuasion. The “beliefs” were really irrelevant to Wierwille’s purposes, it’s just that the Arcane with a Biblical façade was the easiest for lazy VPW to develop & market.
OM, perhaps you are not your own (true historical self), just maybe you were bought with a price, you were forged with the non-consented mental manipulation of a homiletics’ master. Determine what need the Arcane fills in your life, & you might discover an explanation for your irrational devotion to the Hierophantic Hermes of our time, your ‘father’ in the metaphysical ‘Word,’ Herr Vierville.
;) :)
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NOG
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NOG
The more ya kick it.... :P
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jkboehme
George M. Lamsa: Christian Scholar or Cultic Torchbearer?"
(from the Christian Research Journal, Fall 1989, Volume 12 Number 2).
George M. Lamsa's books and translations of the Bible have become a fixture in Christian bookstores across the nation. Lamsa published 21 books by the time of his death in 1975. Four of these, plus his version of the Bible, were published by A. J. Holman, a well-known Bible and book publisher. Currently, Spring Arbor distributes them to Christian bookstores nationwide.
For nearly 50 years Lamsa was a popular speaker at conferences and churches, published the periodical Light for All, and spoke on the radio program "Lessons for Living." He also founded the Aramaic Bible Society and Calvary Missionary Church. Many groups and writers quote Lamsa as a Bible scholar.
There are several reasons for Lamsa's popularity. First, his books are engaging and very readable. Second, his comments on the life and customs of Bible times are engrossing to twentieth century Westerners. Third, people are intrigued and awed by Lamsa's claim that he was reared in the same part of the world Jesus lived, thus participating in biblical customs and language, and is hence uniquely able to reveal the Bible's idioms, translate the Bible accurately, and disclose its true meaning.
Lamsa's Christian readers commonly make the following charitable assumptions about his life and work: They believe Lamsa was an evangelical Christian teacher and that he accepted all the major biblical teachings held by the church. They think Lamsa absorbed a culture like that of Bible times which enabled him to accurately interpret Scripture. They further believe he held the Bible in high esteem and that he accurately translated it.
In this article we will closely examine each of these assumptions with a view to gaining a clearer picture of Lamsa's work. This will enable us to better respond to the man and his claims.
LAMSA'S TEACHINGS: BIBLICAL OR CULTIC?
Anyone who closely reads Lamsa's books will notice that he seldom explicitly enunciates his beliefs. In fact, Lamsa stated that he purposely tried to avoid doctrinal, theological, and controversial matters and passages.[1] When he does deal with a controversial topic, he will typically mention some common views without stating his own. For instance, when he addresses Luke's account of angels at Jesus' ascension, he comments that many faiths hold to a belief in personal angels and demons, but he neglects to say that he himself does not.[2]Lamsa's motives and message are also made difficult to discern by his inconsistency: some of his writings seem evangelical, while others are far removed from the biblical faith. This may be due to an evolution of his thought away from biblical teaching or to adjusting his wording to his audiences' desires.
We gain insight into Lamsa's true message and his approach to interpreting Scripture by reflecting on his upbringing. George Lamsa was born near the Turkish/Iraqi border about 1892 and lived there until about 1915. This area has been overrun by one warring country after another for centuries. Lamsa remembers thousands of his Armenian people being massacred, starved, or forced from their homeland by Moslems; he narrowly escaped death himself. Rival tribes were in constant conflict, highlighting their political, cultural, and religious differences. The history of Lamsa's Eastern church is full of divisions, including such competing groups as the Monophysites, Nestorians, and Jacobians. (This even led to alternate alphabets for their common language.)
These experiences affected Lamsa's message and interpretation of Scripture in several ways. Above all, Lamsa sought a "new world order" in which "the light of the gospel would be shared, racial and class barriers would be eliminated, and national boundaries would be eliminated."[3] Accordingly, Lamsa interprets Jesus' Sermon on the Mount (in his book appropriately titled The Kingdom on Earth) as a commandment for world peace, international understanding, and the overthrow of enslaving governments by meekness and love. Lamsa founded the Christian Mohammedan Society in 1921 to pursue unity by emphasizing common ground. Lamsa's desire to unite nations into a universal state led him to avoid matters of dogma and make many concessions to the beliefs of other faiths, seeking the lowest common denominator among religions.
Lamsa attempts to unite world religions in part by eliminating the uniqueness of Jesus and His atoning sacrifice on the cross. He follows the lead of the metaphysical (or "mind science") cults by redefining sin as mere error or (at worst) evil, not as moral disobedience to the Creator which deserves punishment from Him. Salvation in Lamsa's view is simply knowing Truth and "understanding the good"[12] -- a view which reduces Jesus from the essential suffering Savior to the dispensable model man. Christ died, Lamsa says in his notes on John 3:16, to show us meekness and the existence of life hereafter, not to atone for our sins.[13] He thus contradicts the central theme of the whole Bible.
Lamsa focuses on man as his own savior rather than viewing Jesus Christ in that roll. Therefore, he extols any prominent person, whether Christian or not, as one who has tapped God's power. Lamsa praised "humble prophets" like Isaiah and Jeremiah and "inspired men" like Marconi and Edison all in the same breath because "they relied on the hidden power, the power of God, the power of their indwelling self....one must be able to contact the spiritual forces, which are the only true power. All power belongs to God and comes from Him."[14]
Lamsa's unbiblical views of sin, salvation, and God -- and his move to a metaphysical interpretation of Scripture -- helpedhim to reconcile differences between Judaism, Christianity, and Islam (as well as other religions). He denounces as "ignorant" those teachers who claim the three religions are incompatible and adds: "The adherents of these three great religions believe in one God, the holy prophets, the Scriptures, resurrection, Judgment Day and the Life hereafter. On the other hand, a greater part of the differences between them are due to the doctrines and the teachings of men, and the traditions of the elders."[15]
Lamsa's views of healing, Satan, demons, and prophecy are closer to the psychic perspective of metaphysical teaching and occultism than a biblical orientation. Jesus, he infers, had no power to heal, but only spoke "a word of comfort"[16] which most sick people never received: "At times out of hundreds of sick persons who were brought to him only a few were healed, those who had faith in him. Others whose bodies were not cured left the place cursing and shouting insults."[17] Lamsa sometimes removes the supernatural elements from Gospel accounts of healing. For instance, he implies that Simon Peter's mother-in-law was not supernaturally healed, but her rising to work allowed her no time to think about her mild fever until it finally left her (Luke 4:38-39). When he does allow that a healing may have occurred, he attributes it to the faith, understanding, or behavior of the person healed rather than to Jesus Christ's inherent power.
Lamsa implicitly denies the objective existence of a personal Devil and demons. "Demons," he says, is a way of referring to insanity, or wrong thoughts, desires, or practices.[18] "Satan," Lamsa suggests, refers to error or opposition in various forms, and cannot be an objective evil power because God is the only power in the universe.[19] Lamsa's translation usually uses the word "insane" instead of "demon" and "opposition" instead of "Satan."
Lamsa spoke of psychic involvement in a speech at the Association for Research and Enlightenment (A.R.E.), a group which promotes medium Edgar Cayce and the pursuit of psychic phenomena. He encouraged use of the "talents" of Creative (psychic) Power manifesting through men and spotlighted his native Near Eastern people's claim to a "sixth sense": the ability to become aware of God through dreams, visions, intuition, and clairvoyance. He also spoke of their "seventh sense," a state of awareness "higher" than others, with which one can discern between good and evil.[20]
Lamsa's metaphysical theology is man-centered. It is man, he says, who causes his own problems, creates his own healing, creates his world by his own prayer, discloses the unknown by his clairvoyance, and relies on the power of his own indwelling self. In contrast, the Bible emphasizes that relying on self rather than God is foundational to all our problems, and that the way, truth, and life are found only in Jesus Christ.
LAMSA'S CULTURE: BIBLICAL OR NESTORIAN?
Lamsa's claim to be the preeminent authority on the meaning and translation of the Bible rests on his claim that he "was born and reared in a region in the near East which had escaped modernization, a region where the custom, manners and idioms of the ancient Aramaic language are still miraculously preserved to the present day."[27]Even if it was true that the customs and place of Lamsa's birth matched those of biblical days, it would not automatically follow that he could accurately translate and interpret the Bible. Thousands of people shared Jesus' culture and yet misunderstood Him. Jesus' closest disciples repeatedly asked Him to explain His sayings and parables (Matt. 15:10-18), contradicted Him (Mark 8:31-33), and did the opposite of what He wanted (Luke 20:35-38, 49-51). Many others left Jesus because they found Him hard to understand (John 6:60-68). Lamsa and his followers display great naivete and/or egotism when they claim that Lamsa's Assyrian upbringing enabled him to interpret correctly.
Nonetheless, the question remains: Did George Lamsa's early life match the culture of the Bible? This claim is debunked by two key points which Lamsa never understood: First, Semites (including Jews and Lamsa's own ancestors) have varied greatly in culture. Second, his own Assyrian culture changed over the centuries.
The Bible and other ancient records describe Jews of different cultures. For instance, the Herodians were Roman in culture, educated in Greek, tolerant of all religions, and unfaithful to the Mosaic law. The Sadducees were politically Roman, but religiously temple Jews. The Hellenistic Jews (Acts 6:1) were raised outside Israel, spoke Greek, and were adjusted to life among the heathen. Aramaic-speaking Pharisees were lay leaders of Mosaic practice. The Essenes maintained a detached, communal, disciplined lifestyle while the Zealots sought to kill and overthrow the Romans. The customs and language of these groups differed even though they shared a common heritage, land, and time period.
Lamsa's Assyrian people, in contrast, are descendants of none of these groups and have a different land, racial heritage, religion, customs, time period, language, politics, education, and neighbors.
Asyrians are portrayed in the Bible as a race quite foreign to Jewish religion and customs (e.g., Isa. 28:11). The area of Lamsa's birth is called Armenia, Media, or Persia (Reza Shah changed the name to "Iran" in the 1930s). Armenia is 700 miles from Jerusalem (even though Lamsa calls Jesus his "neighbor"), far removed from Hebrew influence, but affected by Greek culture after Alexander the Great's conquest and 250 years of Greek rule.
While Jesus Christ walked the earth, Lamsa's forefathers were Zoroastrian, a religion which enjoyed royal approval in Persia and honored many ancient Iranian gods, including the popular idol Mithra. They repudiated the Mosaic law and its accompanying moral code and culture. Among the few things Armenia had in common with Israel in Jesus' time were their mutual hatred of Romans and a similar language. They also had a very small number of residents whose ancestors were forced to leave Israel seven centuries earlier in punishment for rejecting God and His prophets. It would therefore be foolish to say that Lamsa's idolatrous Iranian ancestors were a carbon copy of devout Jewish/Israelite culture.
The Evolution of Nestorian Culture
What about Lamsa's Christian heritage? He claims to be both Assyrian and Nestorian. First of all, Nestorian culture did not even bud until the second century when many converts were made in Armenia, and it was not until the fifth century that it flowered as the Nestorian church formed.Strangely, Lamsa contends that his "biblical" culture survived unchanged from 4000 B.C. to the present.[28] Actually, his and every culture changes with time, locale, and especially contact with other cultures. Lamsa admits that in the last 2,300 years alone his people were overcome by the Greeks, Romans, pagans, Mohammedans, Mongols, Kurds, Russians, Turks, and British. Lamsa says that advancements in philosophy, theology, and other fields were "due to the combined labors of the Nestorians and the Arabs,"[29] that millions of Nestorians were forced t become Muslims,[30] and that European culture was "tearing the natural traditions of the [Eastern] people up by the roots"[31] already two generations before his birth. While some Assyrian customs may be ancient or similar to biblical customs(as several Mideastern cultures are), Assyrian culture is in many important respects different and has changed over the centuries.
There are also many dialects of Aramaic. Dwellers in Jerusalem noticed Peter's Galilean dialect (Matt. 26:73), even though he lived only 60 miles away. These dialects -- both representatives of western Aramaic -- differ even more noticeably from the dialects of eastern Aramaic used at Edessa (home of the Pedangta) and Lamsa's homeland.
Lamsa undoubtedly was an ambassador of Nestorian (not biblical) culture, with its unique alphabet, language, writings, customs, and church tradition. One prominent aspect of this culture is a strong anti-Greek bias which Lamsa manifests often. This bias stems from bitterness towards the largely Greek-speaking council which censured Nestorius.
Lamsa damages his credibility by wrongly asserting that "the Greeks occupied the Holy Land for only seven years, and there were not a half-dozen natives of Palestine who learned enough Greek in that time to carry on a conversation."[32] He also claims that converts outside Palestine only spoke Aramaic, and that most references to "Greek" people were mistranslated and should read "Arameans" or "Syrians."[33] Lamsa asserts that Jesus and His disciples never heard Greek spoken[34] and that no portion of the New Testament was originally written in Greek, but was first translated after Constantine's conversion in A.D. 318.[35] He assumes the Greek translators were deceitful and ignorant, intentionally adding and deleting passages and wrongly translating many parts.[36]
The only documentation Lamsa ever offers is a quotation of Josephus (Antiquities of the Jewsxx.12.1). While Lamsa takes him to mean that few Jews learned Greek, Josephus actually said that he himself lacked the precision and pronunciation in Greek which he desired.
LAMSA: EVANGELICAL SCHOLAR OR CULTIC FIGURE?
Lamsa considered himself to be the man God set aside and inspired for our times, and his followers still view him as such. One even senses in Lamsa's writings an implicit claim that he stands in the line of apostles with Moses, Jesus, Paul, and Mohammed. Lamsa explains his unique calling through editor Tom Alyea: "God had revealed to Lamsa his purpose and how it was to be done. It was a one-man job. In the Bible testimony is given that God spoke to man; however, it is not recorded where he spoke to a committee...Yes, only one man could translate the Bible from Aramaic. God knew it, and Lamsa knew it, and so it was."[49]Lamsa also attempts to establish scholarly credentials as a means of gaining acceptance. He claims to have been born about 1892, and to have acquired an A.B. degree equivalent in 1907 and a Ph.D. equivalent in theology in 1908 from Archbishop of Canterbury's College, Turkey.[50] He also claims to have graduated from Episcopal Theology Seminary in Virginia[51] and to have studied at the University of Pennsylvania and Dropsie College.
Lamsa, however, appears to have exaggerated his academic credentials. First, he claims to have attained a Ph.D. at age 16, only one year after his A.B.[52] Second, there are no records of his graduation from a seminary, and his own writings suggest that he was never at any school long enough to attain any valid degree.
Lamsa's writing style reflects his exalted view of his own mission and character. He usually writes embellished narratives or discourses, not documenting either blanket assertions or detailed comments. For example, he dismisses his lack of supporting evidence for his theory that the New Testament was originally authored in Aramaic by saying, "What is a fact needs no defense."[53] He assumes that his peculiar habits, culture, superstitions, idioms, and musings all match and illuminate Scripture, resulting in often incorrect or simplistic interpretations. By contrast, scholars in the fields of New Testament studies and Aramaic offer detailed evidence, accept criticisms, and yield much more cautious and informed conclusions.
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rascal
No proof of Koresche being a dangerous cult????
Have you actually read what his practices were Oldies?
The one that sticks out in my mind was where the daughters of the followers were interviewed.... daughters of his followers were required to become Koresches *brides* around the age of 14 and start bearing children for him.
One show .... the follower was saying that he believed or portrayed himself as Jesus at the second coming.
He had over twenty children from different *brides* It was considered quite the honor to be producing these children for his most highest.....ALL this practice of course backed up with intensive scriptural research.
Just your harmless garden variety church no doubt.....
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oldiesman
Jkboehme, I read your stuff closely and haven't gotten an answer from you.
If PFAL and other classes and teachings taught in twi were basically nothing more than repackaged paganism, please reveal what are the true doctrines of Christianity?
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jkboehme
WhiteDove,
MP3 received re SNS # 942 (12/03/1978) "The Current Psychological Hoax"
Thanks, JKB :)
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WordWolf
You didn't read him as closely as you thought.
He said he's focusing on ONE area, and not addressing ANOTHER area.
Period.
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oldiesman
Yes, this was covered in "Waco Rules of Engagement". Have you seen the film? The sheriff of the county where all this happened was interviewed and spoke about everything at Mt. Carmel.
Marriage is legal at the age of 14 in Texas. (or it was legal at that time...)
Also, consider biblical culture when they got married. very young.
There's no doubt their beliefs were different and strange to our culture. But they believed that Koresh was what the bible referred to as the "sinning messiah". Not Christ, but a Christ-like figure who would procreate elders who would be leaders in the millenium. That was the spirit in which these sexual encounters happened... for procreation. Everyone in their group knew about it and approved. This is vastly different from say, VP drugging someone and appropriating himself privately. There is no comparison.
The Branch Davidians was an offshoot of the Seven Day Adventist church. They believed Koresh was teaching accurately about the seven seals.
Wierd as all this sounds, folks have a right to their own religious beliefs in this country.
Doesn't make them dangerous -- that was part of the smear campaign to downplay the government's atrocious actions regarding this matter.
Our own government, when it usurps our constitutional liberties, *is dangerous*.
A person who supposedly knows so much about "the counterfeit" and has so much concern and zeal to explain it, ought to at least have as much concern and zeal to expound about "the genuine". We may actually learn something of value.
It's so easy to tear down.
You are very good at that too, Wordwolf.
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WordWolf
Ok,
so you're saying that it was perfectly fine-moral AND legal-
for "David Koresh" to impregnate all the women in the kingdom
(did they all belong to the king?)
from age 14 and up,
because that's their ways,
although they are strange to us.
If you had sex with a 14-year old in the US with whom you were not married,
who was 1/2 your age, and she gave full consent in WRITING and VIDEO
ahead of time,
you'd still go to JAIL for "STATUTORY RAPE".
That's a CRIME in the US. Don't you know what the term "jailbait" is?
I'm unsure whether or not it is actually legal to marry a 14-year old in ANY state,
so I'll skip addressing that one.
The "culture" of the Branch Davidians was the US culture.
Waco is in TEXAS. That's in the US.
They get tv and radio-the same channels as the rest of us.
Etc, etc.
Further,
if you married someone, then had sex with a minor with whom you
are not married, that's "STATUTORY RAPE" and ILLEGAL in this
country.
Further,
if you married more than one minor,
that's "BIGAMY" and ILLEGAL in this country.
David Koresh broke the LETTER of the law with his boinking
the women of "his congregation",
no matter WHAT justification he gave.
You may have forgotten,
but "freedom of religion" does not allow you to commit
crimes as defined in the Laws of the US.
That was reiterated in the court documents presented to
twi in one of their cases.
People have the right to believe as they wish, and teach
as they wish, but they may not commit crimes, nor
incite to commit crimes, nor conspire to commit crimes.
===
Besides it being ILLEGAL,
it was also IMMORAL.
"David Koresh" abused his office
when he defined procedure and said all the women
were supposed to have sex with him.
Even if "everyone knew about it and approved",
you're still ignoring that when an authority figure
REDEFINES things for you, and establishes
social structures that REINFORCE that,
it doesn't steal all freewill from the person,
but it means they are no longer thinking in a
fair and objective fashion.
(Perhaps you still don't see that, ever.)
So,
it is wrong for a religious leader to take a woman
(or man), arrange things in his favour,
pressure him/her to have sex with him,
and claim it's perfectly fine.
WHETHER OR NOT HE DRUGS HIM OR HER.
It's wrong no matter WHO does it.
===========
Maybe so, but each poster answers to his or her own conscience, Oldies.Neither you nor I set policy, and can neither forbid nor compel posting on
a subject. He announced what he intends to do.
Don't like it? Complain to the admins.
Yeah, man, that prophet Nathan, he was a biggie on tearing down,
and that Jeremiah, too....
and those watchmen on the walls of the city-they were downers,
disturbing the quiet of the city and worrying everyone...
and Woodward and Bernstein, they were such alarmists....
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oldiesman
Doesn't make them "dangerous" and doesn't call for them to get killed.
And it wasn't "all the women in the kingdom", it was a selected number from the bible that they believed were going to be elders, after the seven seals came to pass.
There was no pressure.
This is what they all believed was God's Will for their lives.
You might want to watch the film and see for yourself what really happened.
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rascal
I find that justification of statuatory rape, as well as bigamy, as well as the ultimate betrayal of ones authority .....to be deeply disturbing .....it is no wonder you are unable to acknowledge the true criminality and heinous nature of the betrayal by wierwille and his leaders.....nor comprehend the extent of the damage inflicted on his victims.
This puts me in mind of the term *seared conscience*
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oldiesman
This wasn't statutory rape, bigamy, or betrayal of authority.
This was a group of people who carried out their religious beliefs, openly, who violated no laws.
By the way, the FBI seige had nothing to do with the Branch Davidian sexual beliefs.
That was used later (their sexual beliefs) to create sympathy for the FBI murderers.
Just like folks seem to be using the Branch Davidian sexual beliefs now as rationale to justify murder.
"no big deal"...they were nuts anyway.
In the state of Texas men/women may get married at the age of 14, with parental consent.
Is the state of Texas all a bunch of statutory rapists in to allow that? How dare they?
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rascal
I only have to look into the trusting faces of my 14 and 17 yr old daughters ...their exhuberance...their charming innocence .... to understand how damnably wrong this betrayal of their trusting souls would be.
These sweet teenagers who are so willing to please, who so desperatly want to do the right thing, desperate to be aproved of by their peers and the adults that they respect...that they will do literally almost anything that one whom they respect and trusts deems Godly* or their spiritual *responsibiliy*
The betrayal of their earnest willingness to please by those childrens parents and minister is just sickening.
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WordWolf
Texas law...
Without consent of a parent or legal guardian, the age is 18.
(At which point you have achieved your majority.)
WITH consent of parent, the limit is 16,
UNLESS YOU HAVE A COURT ORDER.
http://www.coolnurse.com/marriage_laws.htm
http://www.weddingvendors.com/marriage-lic...d-states/texas/
http://www.dallascounty.org/html/citizen-s...ge-license.html
It was a crime, you sicko.
Koresh had sex with 14-year olds.
He did not have court orders saying he was married to them.
Therefore, EACH sex act with a 14-year old or a 15-year old was
an act of STATUTORY RAPE,
which is equivalent to RAPE in the eyes of the State of Texas.
It's obvious you have no idea WHY there's an age limit.
Here's the Office of the State Attorney General of Texas,
the leading LAW OFFICER's office for Texas,
explaining the rationale.
http://www.oag.state.tx.us/opinions/op47mattox/jm-0359.htm
Judge Mattox communicates in plain English.
Thus, I expect everyone ELSE to see the WHY of it
when reading this.
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oldiesman
Here's a site that says parental consent for marriage in Texas is 14 for male, 13 for female:
Texas Parental Consent
Even so, back in 1993, it was no crime.
They interviewed the sheriff of that county, have him on tape, saying they committed no crime.
If you had watched the film, you would know this.
No, it wasn't.
And kindly watch the namecalling.
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rascal
Then QUIT parroting sicko logic.
My daughters, at least one of them anyway , is the age where friends of mine were started to be pressured to have sex with wierwille and martindale....
It was ok according to wierwilles religious beliefs too...it was also ok to destroy these vulnerable youngsters when they wouldn`t be pressured.....there were a lot of sick things that were ok to be practiced in wierwilles religion....that doesn`t make it right spiritually, ethically, morally or legally.
It brings it home all over again how perverted these sick old bastards were to force themselves on these innocents.
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templelady
Attention Oldies
My religious beliefs state I am to have an exceedingly abundant life--that means by midnight today I want all funds from your bank accounts transferred to me as well as all personal property, title to your home and vehicles as well as any orther property you own.
WHAT??? you aren't going to comply???
Well then I'll just take them
WHAT?? If I do that you are going to call law inforcement????
I just don't understand your attitude
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oldiesman
Mo, the purpose of the ATF seige was publicity; had nothing to do with sexual acts.
Branch Davidians were also gun dealers... and that time, and in the Clinton Administration, the ATF was very anti-gun, and they wanted some major anti-gun publicity.
If you viewed the film, you would know all this.
This wasn't sicko logic to the Davidians.
That's a major reason why it wasn't a crime .... there was no criminal "intent".
In contrast, there was criminal intent on the part of the FBI murderers.
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