My apologies...I read over Ricky's posts and realize that he is no longer in, same as me; so I shouldn't have asked Ricky to do that. Somehow I thought he was still in...sorry.
As far as someone like *me* doing it...i'm out of there. Ideally, it should be folks (not one but many) who have enough boldness and guts to challenge the existing doctrine on adultery and not afraid to be asked to leave, if rebuffed. If enough people do that it might cause a commotion for good.
If enough people do that it might cause a commotion for good.
How many people is enough, OM? Hundreds and probably Thousands have already done that and been asked to leave.....
Why sit around waiting for an invitation? Sounds like an excuse to me when you know darn well all you have to do is call and tell them that you'd like to return to fellowship.
Then, I ask again, OM --- Why sit around waiting for an invitation? Sounds like an excuse to me when you know darn well all you have to do is call and tell them that you'd like to return to fellowship.
I'm one of them. John Riches*n is one of them - did you forget about his letter that was posted on WayDale and GSpot? Paul All*n was one of them. My former LC is one of them. Another three WC couples in my area tried. Wayne Cl*pp. Walter C*mmings. John N*ssle. MANY posters here at GSpot...
Your memory is selective. There is a whole slew of people who confronted leadership in TWI and wanted to see changes but were kicked out.
Wayne Cl@pp did in , I think 99. He confronted LCM about his lewd acts....
Oldies, many quietly try. Why do you think I stayed for so long?.....my whole reason was "you cannot change it if you leave".
Ask John R (igotout). He tried, wrote a letter with concerns, wanted to get answers, they booted him.
So how do you propose they "make it better"?
I have friends in high places at HQ, they know my beefs, and they honestly think they can make some changes. But it still has to be filtered through the BoD, and it doesn't seem to get far.
Besides, if the foundation is false (many doctrinal and practical issues), then why stay and fight?
I left, not because of the adultery, I left because of ALL the lies.
What good is it if they "fix" the adultery issue by condeming it, etc.... but so much of their doctrine and practice in other areas is not addressed?
Go back to Catcup's list of things they would REALLY need to do..................
Your memory is selective. There is a whole slew of people who confronted leadership in TWI and wanted to see changes but were kicked out.
Thanks for those examples...
But I still would like to see twi succeed if changes are made.
I admit I have mixed feelings about this issue. Sometimes I feel that twi should be around because who knows who they might help who needs it. On the other hand, I feel like it wouldn't hurt if everyone left and moved on, especially to the offshoots.
Lots of the same good doctrinal teachings are part of the offshoots, but without the ungodly doctrines and the history of the abuse.
In addition to the lie that "there is nothing else out there" beside twi, is the concept that you have to believe 100% the SAME as everyone else in your organization/church/ministry!
Right now there are plenty of people in twi that do not believe everything taught by BOD. And you will come across different people who disagree on different things. I have found that it is okay to believe differently from others in the same group. And there are plenty of churches that even keep things decent and in order when it comes to manifestations!
There is no benefit to having only a intellectual perception of God--find a ministry with some real life and love in it! Where is that REAL vital relationship with God that twi used to talk about having? I have only seen it outside of twi.
There is a lack of balance and common sense in twi. (Taking a valid principle but then stretching it too far. It can be subtle but its there.)
Look at what Jesus Christ actually did--since we are supposed to be "followers of Jesus Christ" like twi definition says. The churches and other ministries are carrying out his words and works better than twi.
And Bliss, isnt it amazing to see how much control we allowed leader.... to have over our lives without even realizing it? It is so exhilerating to breathe the air of freedom.
If you truly believed TWI could be reformed, you'd put your money where your mouth is.
You'd call them up, get back into the fellowship, and then begin your crusade of confrontation to put TWI's house back in order.
Otherwise, I'd have to wonder why you truly don't do this yourself.
Either you don't truly believe it can be done, or you are concerned that if you tried, you would not be successful.
Perhaps deep inside, you really know that NO ONE WOULD TAKE YOU SERIOUSLY, OR THEY'D QUICKLY MAKE YOUR LIFE MISERABLE TO TRY TO RUN YOU OFF, OR TOSS YOU OUT ON YOUR CAN LIKE THEY'VE DONE ANYONE ELSE WHO HAS EVER TRIED IT.
If you're not willing to take your own advice, you might want to examine exactly why. You might find you aren't a hundred percent behind your idea, possibly for reasons you don't want to admit to yourself.
Then, I ask again, OM --- Why sit around waiting for an invitation? Sounds like an excuse to me when you know darn well all you have to do is call and tell them that you'd like to return to fellowship.
I'd love to see you lead those youngsters in doing what you so heartily endorse and claim can and should happen.
With the people I know who have gone onto staff this year..don't try holding your breath for the next say..10 years !!
Regarding other churches teaching what was taught in TWI (the good stuff) NUH Dr. W DID bring it all 'together'. Most of the other churches have bits and pieces. If I lived in the States I'd probably be involved with CFFM.
I think some people are still so bitter about their twi experience that a public beheading of Loy in front of the fountain of living waters still would'nt help.
I think some people are still so bitter about their twi experience that a public beheading of Loy in front of the fountain of living waters still would'nt help.
Weeell now .......... that would be a place to START anyways.... :P
Act 5:38 And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:
Act 5:39 But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.
For the most part, that's what we've been doing: sitting back and watching The Way International "come to nought," unraveling all of its own accord, all of its own doing.
And conversely, if the organization is coming to nought because it is NOT of God, no amount of your or my intervention will stop it's destruction. Perhaps those trying to salvage that dying organization are the ones fighting against God.
Aaah, I always like to log in. .... . "please wait while we transfer you ... . " DAMN that's got a kick to it!
Well, Cutcap, can I get paid for my storeez now? If so, put it towards my new book, "PFAL LITE". Chapter one puts the fix on the whole Law of Believing topic. Titled "It Is What It Is", it's sure to thrill.
The more I think about it I can think of several reasons why Way Youth would, if not actually leave, sit close to the door. Herewith therefore, some. Of the reasons:
This quote from the Agreedments and Stuff page of the Way.orc site....
It is a condition of your use of this Web site that you do not, directly or indirectly:
• Restrict or inhibit any other user from using and enjoying this Web site;
That's a head scratcher. How would I indirectly inhibit another "user" of their web site from using and enjoying it? Let alone restrict someone, indirectly? Apparently the Way anticipates levels of mischief beyond even ne'er-do-wells like me, because I can't figure that one out. Here I would be...using the web site...and...restricting someone from...enjoying it...but...indirectly....
What if a person suddenly started shoving pencils in their ears because they'd accidentally listened to one of those videos and in an effort to stop the insanely repititive regurgitation of auditory abuse were about to do themselves physical harm and I knocked the pencil out of their hand and yanked the plug of the computer out of wall and turned on some Staind tunes to cheer them up? Would that qualify? Or would it be too direct?
Speaking of music, that's another reason Way Youth may be leaving. Kids love that stuff, music. The Way has no music. Maybe they're out getting their IPods loaded up.
I suspect there may be more reasons, if they are leaving. Maybe they're all holing up in some cabin in Wyoming, planning the Great Revitalization of the Way, waiting it out till Rosalie and Harve finally give in to their secret yearnings and run off together to Mexico, after which the Way Kidlings can slowly gain the confidence of the remaining Trustees to the point they'll get jobs at the Way in housekeeping where they can work for 25 years, proving their faithfulness and steadfastness in the Household, at which point they'll be in their 50's and finally be ready to maybe plan a Big Comeback and start bringing back the Asphalt Doo's on Saturday nights in the courtyard. Then they can finally present their suggestions, get kicked out, marked and avoided and get back to Wyoming again, where, if they're lucky, they can group together to plan the Next Great Undertaking. With their grandkids.
I think some people are still so bitter about their twi experience that a public beheading of Loy in front of the fountain of living waters still would'nt help.
Where's a moderator when you need one? Allan, in case you didn't know or hadn't heard, public beheadings have been illegal for quite some time, since Nixon resigned if I remember correctly. Even at the Way it's darned near impossible to get the appropriate licensing, and the paperwork - forget about it. By the time you've done the legwork it's not even worth it.
In fact, I don't believe the Way allows physical dismemberments on the property anymore, at all. Without written permission, given in advance, and of course an escort, in which case I think you can use part of the Way Woods for such events, but only on weekdays as clean up is a bitch and they park the bus that comes in from Dayton for the SNS's out there now on Sundays. So that's out too, practically speaking.
Pretty much it's just no fun there anymore. For God's sake, you can't even turn someone over to Satan at lunch anymore without getting a butt full of grief from somebody. There's always some sadsack sure to start a whispering campaign about it not being "loving" or some such tripe.
Ok, I'm in the right frame of mind to respond now.
(And I have time.)
Greetings, Ricky!
There's a LOT of information you have NO idea about.
All over the GSC website and messageboards are all sorts of
secrets hidden from you, which were exposed by posters.
Take the time, look around, and prepare to be shocked.
Please note that many of us were VERY shocked as
news came in of things we were never told,
or were told outright LIES about.
I'll address a few of your comments in that vein.
My reason for my reply is that many of us believe that one time twi presented a word that was living and real.
Many of us are still Christian.
Many of us who are still Christian believe that at least SOME of what
twi taught, was correct.
There are two things you need to know concerning this.
1) Virtually EVERYTHING of value twi taught, came from
someone else's work-JE Stiles, BG Leonard, EW Bullinger, etc,
and was already "available" before VPW ever taught it.
2) Christians all over the US have made great strides since
the 1950s-but TWI did NOT.
Many Christians can OUTPERFORM the majority of TWI people
in MANY Christian concerns.
This is especially true when discussing subjects where TWI
had NO information or grossly-outdated information,
such as the historical record of Bible documents.
TWI is STILL grossly underinformed on this subject,
and always was.
Many of us have great memories of seeing the word for what it was and deep down
in the depths of some of our hearts we know that we have seen things
that were unmistakenly God's truth.
We have many of these memories as well.
We now know a lot more and understand them better, however.
Again. God's Truth is NOT the sole province of TWI,
and never was,
no matter WHAT you were told.
Other Christians have answers,
some have the SAME answers,
and some OUTPERFORM TWI.
You know how, if you plagiarize and are caught,
you can be kicked out of a college and will be flunked
from a class and face all sorts of penalties?
VPW plagiarized ALL THE TIME.
So, "his" truths were someone else's truths that VPW
walked up to and photocopied.
Along with these feelings many of us have tremendous disgust and bruised hearts for the lack of truth and love that followed these memories and experiances.
What no one told you,
was that VPW was the SOURCE of a lot of that
BEHIND THE SCENES.
He was brilliant at covering his tracks.
So, that wasn't "introduced later" into what "special things" VPW did.
It was in place from the beginning,
placed there BY VPW.
I know that it is totally justified. But after my I left with my parents many of the youth I grew up with still tried to stay in contact with me (some against their parents wishes during our college years). I was totally confused about this for years because their parents would have nothing to do with my parents. They would talk about everything with me too. I would ask about martidale and you would be suprised on how perceptive these kids are.
Martindale did NOT have the skill of
hiding his vices and malicious acts that
VPW did.
He learned the ACTS from him,
but not how to HIDE them.
They have NO idea what VPW did.
Some of the eyewitnesses know, however.
They post here.
I have to disagree that these youth do not have any people skills. Some of them are very dynamic and smart cookies.
Raw IQ points and the ability to score high on tests
do not equal an ability to interact in a healthy fashion
with people,
nor does it mean they see behind ALL the lies,
or even MOST of the lies.
By your standards, they may see a lot-
but how "objective" are your standards
when much of what you see is what they WANTED
you to see?
Yes it is true that some of the youth get there eighteen legs and get out and go never to come back.
That's great!
Let them interface with other young Christians!
Then ALL of them can learn things from EACH OTHER!
But There are most who still go to fellowship and tithe that hard earned money even during the poor college years. I asked one two years ago why she has not chosen to leave and this was her response that cut me to the heart.
She'll have to learn the HARD WAY how to evaluate
things for herself, including what she THOUGHT she knew...
I said "don't you think you could find what your looking for through another church." She replied " If you can find me a church that teaches Jesus Christ is not God, That the dead are dead, How to recieve the holy spirit into manifestation, all nine manifestations in detail, pratical applicaton of beleiving equeals recieving and all of the ground breaking research we have done plus more, come tell me because I want to be apart of it." I didn't have a respone I wish I did.
Here's responses to all of that.
A) Many of the things you can find in a church are things TWI LACKS.
There's no heart in TWI, if there ever was.
There's heart in churches.
Ever see TWI organize an act of mercy?
Feed the hungry? House the homeless?
Do good to someone from whom they can expect
NO FAVOURS IN RETURN?
Churches do that all the time.
I've done that in connection with a church I
wasn't a member of-how's THAT for breaking down walls?
I was a Christian, I wanted to help, that was more
than good enough for them.
TWI says "the poor you have with you always" and
just keeps making sure that money comes to hq and
STAYS THERE. If TWI can't make a profit off something
moneywise, don't EVER expect to see them do it.
So, churches can offer what she already needs,
but has no idea "what is available".
B) No Trinity?
That's Apostolics, Christadelphians,
some others, including ex-way splinter groups.
C) Dead are dead?
I'm not sure how many groups as a whole teach that.
The position is called "Annihilation", though,
which tells you there's enough of them that it needed
a word to describe them.
How often does this come up in your daily walk with God?
If you're not bringing it up as soon as you meet another
Christian so you can look down on their "inferior doctrine",
it doesn't come up much.
BTW, he plagiarized that off a few of Bullinger's books.
"Are the Dead Alive Now" is composed from books
you can read ON THE INTERNET from Bullinger.
D) The holy spirit?
Ha!
All charismatics, and all pentecostals,
to greater and lesser degrees.
Whoever learned under Stiles knows everything in
the White Book (which was mostly Stiles' book with
a new cover).
Whoever learned under BG Leonard knows BETTER
than whoever learned under TWI.
VPW's "PFAL" class' holy spirit segments were
lifted wholepiece from Leonard's classes on the same.
VPW taught "rote", meaning he passed on what he'd
gleaned from Leonard,
but he didn't have MASTERY of the topic,
so whenever he wasn't repeating Leonard,
he made mistakes.
Leonard REALLY understood the field.
Leonard's classes are still taught today.
E) "all nine manifestations in detail"
You can learn that BETTER from Leonard's
class.
You can learn it AS WELL from the ex-way
groups,
as well as whomever God has enlightened
but I've never heard of.
F) "practical application of believing
equals receiving".
Guess what?
BELIEVING DOES NOT EQUAL RECEIVING.
Chapter and verse, please.
The Bible teaches having confidence
in God, it teaches trusting promises of God,
and praying with confidence in God.
It NEVER teaches that "believing equals receiving."
That's why TWI never became famous for
having loads of people who won big lottery jackpots.
All their "believing" couldn't force events into happening,
nor could they strongarm God into acting as a Divine GENIE.
If you DID want to hobble your understanding and embrace
this error ANYWAY,
there's LOTS of other people that teach it.
They're the "Word-Faith" groups, and follow Kenyon's pattern.
Kenneth Hagin is just one of many others who plagiarized
Kenyon on this (like VPW did.)
G) "All of the groundbreaking research".
This is SO incorrect I wouldn't know where to start.
If you took out from "VPW's" books and classes
everything he took entirely from Bullinger,
Stiles, Leonard, and Kenyon, you'd have
almost NOTHING,
and all of that would not include any substance.
We've discussed that here over the years.
There's a LOT of documentation on that.
The research department was only allowed to
produce research agreeing with VPW.
When Schoenheit produced a research paper
on Adultery (saying Adultery is WRONG)
he was OSTRACIZED, and FIRED,
and people were told they'd get possessed
if they read his paper.
His paper is linked on the main GSC site.
Its main point is that adultery is wrong,
and everything else is written to support it.
Ask anyone who was IN the research
department what they felt was the most
"groundbreaking research" they ever did.
ALL of that is COMMON KNOWLEDGE here.
If you did not know ALL of that,
you need to catch up and learn some things-
starting with "I don't know it all".
One told me "Dr. Wierwille would be rolling over in his grave if he herd people reading their teachings at the sns." Ha! I dont know about you but I had to agree.
I agree.
He was MUCH better at hiding his sources,
and studied his subject before teaching it so his notes were aids, not a
Ricky, I know this is a lot of information to take in, but please don't be intimidated.
The Way International's doctrines and practices were all designed to isolate you from any support systems you might have outside their confines. That does two things: First, it helps keep the people in the organization (and the money in the coffers). People are afraid to leave or afraid of being forced to leave. And because they've been told those who have left are possessed and are spiritually or otherwise dangerous, followers are afraid of coming into contact with them. The doctrine your friends have embraced has trained them to not allow themselves to even consider certain truths and facts. In this manner, followers are kept from obtaining any meaningful information from the outside, that would enable them to detect the errors on the inside. It prevents any truly objective thought regarding teachings and practices of the group.
Secondly, the doctrines that a follower learned inside The Way, punishes the follower when he leaves The Way. The follower has been taught that if a person ever does exit the organization, he is outside God's protection and love. When he finds himself outside the organization, he is traumatized, ostracized and isolated. The doctrine he has learned teaches him that he is unworthy of the love and protection of God and the people whom God truly loves, and as a result he has been abandoned. The ex-communicant is left on the outside looking in, wishing for the "good old days" of "sweet fellowship" and "hot bible," still under the FALSE impression that nearly everything of spiritual value is still within the organization he can no longer be a part of.
Before the internet existed, this state of confusion and self-deprication could have lasted for years or even decades, because there was no efficient way significant numbers of ex-follwers could compare notes on their experiences, and see the pattern of lies, deceit, and damage left by the actions of this organization. With the advent of the world wide web, The Way International can no longer keep people blind and continue to punish them with lies even after they are gone. We've pulled the curtain back for all to see the pathetic ugly truth that it has all been smoke, mirrors, lies, and manipulation. What many are learning is that the "sweet fellowship" was mostly shallow. The doctrine Way followers still embrace prevents them from actually being a genuine friend to anyone who is not part of the group. And, as WordWolf has pointed out, the so called "hot bible" was plagiarized truths, laced with spiritual opium I might add.
That's why The Way International does their best to "warn" people about going onto the internet. Fear is continually used to keep people in line.
Take your time to do a lot of reading on this site, and allow yourself to come to the realization that your TWI "friends" are unable to allow themselves to embrace the truth, and think logically and objectively. A big "ferinstance" would be the following: Your "intelligent" TWI "friends" in college are aware, I'm sure, of the colleges policies regarding plagiarism, and wouldn't dream of turning in a plagiarized paper. But they are incapable of cognitively applying that concept to the published products of their dearly beloved "doctor." They either don't allow themselves to believe he built his entire ministry on plagiarized material, or they somehow excuse it as permissable in his case.
These people either choose to remain blind or poke out their own eyes.
Count your blessings you are out, my friend. And don't let their short-sighted comments to you cut your heart. They are the ones who are mentally and spiritually impaired, and continue to remain outside the will of a loving God.
Socks, weren't you beheaded one time way back in the old days by accident? Then healing was ministered and you were (sort of) ok? Wasn't that the story? Oh, those were fun times, you oldies man.
Yeah, what you said about music. It was all over the place back in the day, everywhere you turned. Inspirational music coming from the joy within. No music= no inspiration= no fun.
Off topic:
Hey, I saw you had a quote by James Brown earlier under your post. Did you know I got his autograph in 1986 when we were working at a hotel? He wrote "To John & Family. God bless. James Brown."
Whoa! That's very cool, IGO! For a guy who loves to say "Hit me!" he's held up pretty good.
Hmmm....the beheading is an old story that's grown wings over the years. Actually I just lost my head one day and said I was feeling good, when what I really meant to say was "internal convictions based on principles that I've learned and am activating by believing action are producing positive results".
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oldiesman
My apologies...I read over Ricky's posts and realize that he is no longer in, same as me; so I shouldn't have asked Ricky to do that. Somehow I thought he was still in...sorry.
As far as someone like *me* doing it...i'm out of there. Ideally, it should be folks (not one but many) who have enough boldness and guts to challenge the existing doctrine on adultery and not afraid to be asked to leave, if rebuffed. If enough people do that it might cause a commotion for good.
I just wish they'd invite me back :lol:
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Belle
How many people is enough, OM? Hundreds and probably Thousands have already done that and been asked to leave.....
Why sit around waiting for an invitation? Sounds like an excuse to me when you know darn well all you have to do is call and tell them that you'd like to return to fellowship.
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oldiesman
Hundreds and probably thousands have challenged them on the adultery issue, but were asked to leave?
We learned from "The Cult That Snapped" that Ralph D. did when he asked Craig to knock it off.
We know John Schoenheit made an attempt when he wrote the adultery paper, but then was fired by Chris Geer.
But these incidents happened many years ago...like almost 20 years ago.
Are you aware of any recent attempts?
Should be made from folks who don't want to see the ministry destroyed...but from people who would like to see it change for the better.
Maybe there is room for some godly change now ...
I prefer to be optimistic and leave that possibility open, unless proved impossible.
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Belle
Then, I ask again, OM --- Why sit around waiting for an invitation? Sounds like an excuse to me when you know darn well all you have to do is call and tell them that you'd like to return to fellowship.
I'm one of them. John Riches*n is one of them - did you forget about his letter that was posted on WayDale and GSpot? Paul All*n was one of them. My former LC is one of them. Another three WC couples in my area tried. Wayne Cl*pp. Walter C*mmings. John N*ssle. MANY posters here at GSpot...
Your memory is selective. There is a whole slew of people who confronted leadership in TWI and wanted to see changes but were kicked out.
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bliss
Wayne Cl@pp did in , I think 99. He confronted LCM about his lewd acts....
Oldies, many quietly try. Why do you think I stayed for so long?.....my whole reason was "you cannot change it if you leave".
Ask John R (igotout). He tried, wrote a letter with concerns, wanted to get answers, they booted him.
So how do you propose they "make it better"?
I have friends in high places at HQ, they know my beefs, and they honestly think they can make some changes. But it still has to be filtered through the BoD, and it doesn't seem to get far.
Besides, if the foundation is false (many doctrinal and practical issues), then why stay and fight?
I left, not because of the adultery, I left because of ALL the lies.
What good is it if they "fix" the adultery issue by condeming it, etc.... but so much of their doctrine and practice in other areas is not addressed?
Go back to Catcup's list of things they would REALLY need to do..................
I have a life to get back to.
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oldiesman
But I still would like to see twi succeed if changes are made.
I admit I have mixed feelings about this issue. Sometimes I feel that twi should be around because who knows who they might help who needs it. On the other hand, I feel like it wouldn't hurt if everyone left and moved on, especially to the offshoots.
Lots of the same good doctrinal teachings are part of the offshoots, but without the ungodly doctrines and the history of the abuse.
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penguin
In addition to the lie that "there is nothing else out there" beside twi, is the concept that you have to believe 100% the SAME as everyone else in your organization/church/ministry!
Right now there are plenty of people in twi that do not believe everything taught by BOD. And you will come across different people who disagree on different things. I have found that it is okay to believe differently from others in the same group. And there are plenty of churches that even keep things decent and in order when it comes to manifestations!
There is no benefit to having only a intellectual perception of God--find a ministry with some real life and love in it! Where is that REAL vital relationship with God that twi used to talk about having? I have only seen it outside of twi.
There is a lack of balance and common sense in twi. (Taking a valid principle but then stretching it too far. It can be subtle but its there.)
Look at what Jesus Christ actually did--since we are supposed to be "followers of Jesus Christ" like twi definition says. The churches and other ministries are carrying out his words and works better than twi.
And Bliss, isnt it amazing to see how much control we allowed leader.... to have over our lives without even realizing it? It is so exhilerating to breathe the air of freedom.
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Catcup
Oldies
If you truly believed TWI could be reformed, you'd put your money where your mouth is.
You'd call them up, get back into the fellowship, and then begin your crusade of confrontation to put TWI's house back in order.
Otherwise, I'd have to wonder why you truly don't do this yourself.
Either you don't truly believe it can be done, or you are concerned that if you tried, you would not be successful.
Perhaps deep inside, you really know that NO ONE WOULD TAKE YOU SERIOUSLY, OR THEY'D QUICKLY MAKE YOUR LIFE MISERABLE TO TRY TO RUN YOU OFF, OR TOSS YOU OUT ON YOUR CAN LIKE THEY'VE DONE ANYONE ELSE WHO HAS EVER TRIED IT.
If you're not willing to take your own advice, you might want to examine exactly why. You might find you aren't a hundred percent behind your idea, possibly for reasons you don't want to admit to yourself.
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Belle
And yet a third time, OM, I ask:
I'd love to see you lead those youngsters in doing what you so heartily endorse and claim can and should happen.
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Allan
With the people I know who have gone onto staff this year..don't try holding your breath for the next say..10 years !!
Regarding other churches teaching what was taught in TWI (the good stuff) NUH Dr. W DID bring it all 'together'. Most of the other churches have bits and pieces. If I lived in the States I'd probably be involved with CFFM.
I think some people are still so bitter about their twi experience that a public beheading of Loy in front of the fountain of living waters still would'nt help.
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oldiesman
Don't know if me getting involved is the answer, probably not.
But change is still possible nevertheless.
May take a long time.
I do prefer to think in positive terms, rather than pray for twi's destruction.
I'm reminded of these verses:
Happy Weekend, one and all!
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rascal
Weeell now .......... that would be a place to START anyways.... :P
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WordWolf
"Change is good.
You go FIRST!"
Rescuing all the REAL Christians from twi,
and putting them in HEALTHY relationships with other Christians IS
"thinking in positive terms"!
Imagining that this time it will be different,
this time twi really can be changed and stop hurting people,
is not "positive", it's FICTIONAL.
It's the same type of thing an abused spouse says when they decide
to take the abuser back "for one more chance"!
The language of the abuser is NOT positive, it's DELUDED.
But, hey,
sitting around and THINKING about it,
or telling someone ELSE to do it while you stay where you are,
that's sure a lot EASIER, isn't it?
vpw famously did that ALL thru twi's history....
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Catcup
QUOTE
Act 5:38 And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:
Act 5:39 But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.
For the most part, that's what we've been doing: sitting back and watching The Way International "come to nought," unraveling all of its own accord, all of its own doing.
And conversely, if the organization is coming to nought because it is NOT of God, no amount of your or my intervention will stop it's destruction. Perhaps those trying to salvage that dying organization are the ones fighting against God.
Pass the popcorn, please. B)
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socks
Aaah, I always like to log in. .... . "please wait while we transfer you ... . " DAMN that's got a kick to it!
Well, Cutcap, can I get paid for my storeez now? If so, put it towards my new book, "PFAL LITE". Chapter one puts the fix on the whole Law of Believing topic. Titled "It Is What It Is", it's sure to thrill.
The more I think about it I can think of several reasons why Way Youth would, if not actually leave, sit close to the door. Herewith therefore, some. Of the reasons:
This quote from the Agreedments and Stuff page of the Way.orc site....
That's a head scratcher. How would I indirectly inhibit another "user" of their web site from using and enjoying it? Let alone restrict someone, indirectly? Apparently the Way anticipates levels of mischief beyond even ne'er-do-wells like me, because I can't figure that one out. Here I would be...using the web site...and...restricting someone from...enjoying it...but...indirectly....
What if a person suddenly started shoving pencils in their ears because they'd accidentally listened to one of those videos and in an effort to stop the insanely repititive regurgitation of auditory abuse were about to do themselves physical harm and I knocked the pencil out of their hand and yanked the plug of the computer out of wall and turned on some Staind tunes to cheer them up? Would that qualify? Or would it be too direct?
Speaking of music, that's another reason Way Youth may be leaving. Kids love that stuff, music. The Way has no music. Maybe they're out getting their IPods loaded up.
I suspect there may be more reasons, if they are leaving. Maybe they're all holing up in some cabin in Wyoming, planning the Great Revitalization of the Way, waiting it out till Rosalie and Harve finally give in to their secret yearnings and run off together to Mexico, after which the Way Kidlings can slowly gain the confidence of the remaining Trustees to the point they'll get jobs at the Way in housekeeping where they can work for 25 years, proving their faithfulness and steadfastness in the Household, at which point they'll be in their 50's and finally be ready to maybe plan a Big Comeback and start bringing back the Asphalt Doo's on Saturday nights in the courtyard. Then they can finally present their suggestions, get kicked out, marked and avoided and get back to Wyoming again, where, if they're lucky, they can group together to plan the Next Great Undertaking. With their grandkids.
It might work.
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dmiller
Well --- I don't pray for their destruction, since twi seems to be managing quite nicely on their own!
My grand-dad used to say (with a wink and a smile) :
Satan -- Get behind me! And push!!!
Twi seems to be saying that today, without the wink or the smile. :(
David
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socks
Where's a moderator when you need one? Allan, in case you didn't know or hadn't heard, public beheadings have been illegal for quite some time, since Nixon resigned if I remember correctly. Even at the Way it's darned near impossible to get the appropriate licensing, and the paperwork - forget about it. By the time you've done the legwork it's not even worth it.
In fact, I don't believe the Way allows physical dismemberments on the property anymore, at all. Without written permission, given in advance, and of course an escort, in which case I think you can use part of the Way Woods for such events, but only on weekdays as clean up is a bitch and they park the bus that comes in from Dayton for the SNS's out there now on Sundays. So that's out too, practically speaking.
Pretty much it's just no fun there anymore. For God's sake, you can't even turn someone over to Satan at lunch anymore without getting a butt full of grief from somebody. There's always some sadsack sure to start a whispering campaign about it not being "loving" or some such tripe.
Please, no more beheading talk.
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Nato
Socks, please... never ever stop posting. You are a funny, funny man.
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WordWolf
Ok, I'm in the right frame of mind to respond now.
(And I have time.)
Greetings, Ricky!
There's a LOT of information you have NO idea about.
All over the GSC website and messageboards are all sorts of
secrets hidden from you, which were exposed by posters.
Take the time, look around, and prepare to be shocked.
Please note that many of us were VERY shocked as
news came in of things we were never told,
or were told outright LIES about.
I'll address a few of your comments in that vein.
Many of us are still Christian.
Many of us who are still Christian believe that at least SOME of what
twi taught, was correct.
There are two things you need to know concerning this.
1) Virtually EVERYTHING of value twi taught, came from
someone else's work-JE Stiles, BG Leonard, EW Bullinger, etc,
and was already "available" before VPW ever taught it.
2) Christians all over the US have made great strides since
the 1950s-but TWI did NOT.
Many Christians can OUTPERFORM the majority of TWI people
in MANY Christian concerns.
This is especially true when discussing subjects where TWI
had NO information or grossly-outdated information,
such as the historical record of Bible documents.
TWI is STILL grossly underinformed on this subject,
and always was.
We have many of these memories as well.We now know a lot more and understand them better, however.
Again. God's Truth is NOT the sole province of TWI,
and never was,
no matter WHAT you were told.
Other Christians have answers,
some have the SAME answers,
and some OUTPERFORM TWI.
You know how, if you plagiarize and are caught,
you can be kicked out of a college and will be flunked
from a class and face all sorts of penalties?
VPW plagiarized ALL THE TIME.
So, "his" truths were someone else's truths that VPW
walked up to and photocopied.
What no one told you,
was that VPW was the SOURCE of a lot of that
BEHIND THE SCENES.
He was brilliant at covering his tracks.
So, that wasn't "introduced later" into what "special things" VPW did.
It was in place from the beginning,
placed there BY VPW.
Martindale did NOT have the skill ofhiding his vices and malicious acts that
VPW did.
He learned the ACTS from him,
but not how to HIDE them.
They have NO idea what VPW did.
Some of the eyewitnesses know, however.
They post here.
Raw IQ points and the ability to score high on tests
do not equal an ability to interact in a healthy fashion
with people,
nor does it mean they see behind ALL the lies,
or even MOST of the lies.
By your standards, they may see a lot-
but how "objective" are your standards
when much of what you see is what they WANTED
you to see?
That's great!Let them interface with other young Christians!
Then ALL of them can learn things from EACH OTHER!
She'll have to learn the HARD WAY how to evaluate
things for herself, including what she THOUGHT she knew...
Here's responses to all of that.A) Many of the things you can find in a church are things TWI LACKS.
There's no heart in TWI, if there ever was.
There's heart in churches.
Ever see TWI organize an act of mercy?
Feed the hungry? House the homeless?
Do good to someone from whom they can expect
NO FAVOURS IN RETURN?
Churches do that all the time.
I've done that in connection with a church I
wasn't a member of-how's THAT for breaking down walls?
I was a Christian, I wanted to help, that was more
than good enough for them.
TWI says "the poor you have with you always" and
just keeps making sure that money comes to hq and
STAYS THERE. If TWI can't make a profit off something
moneywise, don't EVER expect to see them do it.
So, churches can offer what she already needs,
but has no idea "what is available".
B) No Trinity?
That's Apostolics, Christadelphians,
some others, including ex-way splinter groups.
C) Dead are dead?
I'm not sure how many groups as a whole teach that.
The position is called "Annihilation", though,
which tells you there's enough of them that it needed
a word to describe them.
How often does this come up in your daily walk with God?
If you're not bringing it up as soon as you meet another
Christian so you can look down on their "inferior doctrine",
it doesn't come up much.
BTW, he plagiarized that off a few of Bullinger's books.
"Are the Dead Alive Now" is composed from books
you can read ON THE INTERNET from Bullinger.
D) The holy spirit?
Ha!
All charismatics, and all pentecostals,
to greater and lesser degrees.
Whoever learned under Stiles knows everything in
the White Book (which was mostly Stiles' book with
a new cover).
Whoever learned under BG Leonard knows BETTER
than whoever learned under TWI.
VPW's "PFAL" class' holy spirit segments were
lifted wholepiece from Leonard's classes on the same.
VPW taught "rote", meaning he passed on what he'd
gleaned from Leonard,
but he didn't have MASTERY of the topic,
so whenever he wasn't repeating Leonard,
he made mistakes.
Leonard REALLY understood the field.
Leonard's classes are still taught today.
E) "all nine manifestations in detail"
You can learn that BETTER from Leonard's
class.
You can learn it AS WELL from the ex-way
groups,
as well as whomever God has enlightened
but I've never heard of.
F) "practical application of believing
equals receiving".
Guess what?
BELIEVING DOES NOT EQUAL RECEIVING.
Chapter and verse, please.
The Bible teaches having confidence
in God, it teaches trusting promises of God,
and praying with confidence in God.
It NEVER teaches that "believing equals receiving."
That's why TWI never became famous for
having loads of people who won big lottery jackpots.
All their "believing" couldn't force events into happening,
nor could they strongarm God into acting as a Divine GENIE.
If you DID want to hobble your understanding and embrace
this error ANYWAY,
there's LOTS of other people that teach it.
They're the "Word-Faith" groups, and follow Kenyon's pattern.
Kenneth Hagin is just one of many others who plagiarized
Kenyon on this (like VPW did.)
G) "All of the groundbreaking research".
This is SO incorrect I wouldn't know where to start.
If you took out from "VPW's" books and classes
everything he took entirely from Bullinger,
Stiles, Leonard, and Kenyon, you'd have
almost NOTHING,
and all of that would not include any substance.
We've discussed that here over the years.
There's a LOT of documentation on that.
The research department was only allowed to
produce research agreeing with VPW.
When Schoenheit produced a research paper
on Adultery (saying Adultery is WRONG)
he was OSTRACIZED, and FIRED,
and people were told they'd get possessed
if they read his paper.
His paper is linked on the main GSC site.
Its main point is that adultery is wrong,
and everything else is written to support it.
Ask anyone who was IN the research
department what they felt was the most
"groundbreaking research" they ever did.
ALL of that is COMMON KNOWLEDGE here.
If you did not know ALL of that,
you need to catch up and learn some things-
starting with "I don't know it all".
I agree.
He was MUCH better at hiding his sources,
and studied his subject before teaching it so his notes were aids, not a
script to recite from.
It was STILL ripped off from someone else,
but at least the showmanship was real work...
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Catcup
Ricky, I know this is a lot of information to take in, but please don't be intimidated.
The Way International's doctrines and practices were all designed to isolate you from any support systems you might have outside their confines. That does two things: First, it helps keep the people in the organization (and the money in the coffers). People are afraid to leave or afraid of being forced to leave. And because they've been told those who have left are possessed and are spiritually or otherwise dangerous, followers are afraid of coming into contact with them. The doctrine your friends have embraced has trained them to not allow themselves to even consider certain truths and facts. In this manner, followers are kept from obtaining any meaningful information from the outside, that would enable them to detect the errors on the inside. It prevents any truly objective thought regarding teachings and practices of the group.
Secondly, the doctrines that a follower learned inside The Way, punishes the follower when he leaves The Way. The follower has been taught that if a person ever does exit the organization, he is outside God's protection and love. When he finds himself outside the organization, he is traumatized, ostracized and isolated. The doctrine he has learned teaches him that he is unworthy of the love and protection of God and the people whom God truly loves, and as a result he has been abandoned. The ex-communicant is left on the outside looking in, wishing for the "good old days" of "sweet fellowship" and "hot bible," still under the FALSE impression that nearly everything of spiritual value is still within the organization he can no longer be a part of.
Before the internet existed, this state of confusion and self-deprication could have lasted for years or even decades, because there was no efficient way significant numbers of ex-follwers could compare notes on their experiences, and see the pattern of lies, deceit, and damage left by the actions of this organization. With the advent of the world wide web, The Way International can no longer keep people blind and continue to punish them with lies even after they are gone. We've pulled the curtain back for all to see the pathetic ugly truth that it has all been smoke, mirrors, lies, and manipulation. What many are learning is that the "sweet fellowship" was mostly shallow. The doctrine Way followers still embrace prevents them from actually being a genuine friend to anyone who is not part of the group. And, as WordWolf has pointed out, the so called "hot bible" was plagiarized truths, laced with spiritual opium I might add.
That's why The Way International does their best to "warn" people about going onto the internet. Fear is continually used to keep people in line.
Take your time to do a lot of reading on this site, and allow yourself to come to the realization that your TWI "friends" are unable to allow themselves to embrace the truth, and think logically and objectively. A big "ferinstance" would be the following: Your "intelligent" TWI "friends" in college are aware, I'm sure, of the colleges policies regarding plagiarism, and wouldn't dream of turning in a plagiarized paper. But they are incapable of cognitively applying that concept to the published products of their dearly beloved "doctor." They either don't allow themselves to believe he built his entire ministry on plagiarized material, or they somehow excuse it as permissable in his case.
These people either choose to remain blind or poke out their own eyes.
Count your blessings you are out, my friend. And don't let their short-sighted comments to you cut your heart. They are the ones who are mentally and spiritually impaired, and continue to remain outside the will of a loving God.
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jackdaniels
A few months ago, I told my wife that we had no JOY in our life anymore.
Now that we are out, Our lives are full of JOY (& peace)!
twi controls people through fear!
fear to leave
fear to question
fear to not attend an event
fear of what might happen if you read the internet or talk to someone who has left.
twi's only concern is the numbers!
more numbers, more abs!
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igotout
Socks, weren't you beheaded one time way back in the old days by accident? Then healing was ministered and you were (sort of) ok? Wasn't that the story? Oh, those were fun times, you oldies man.
Yeah, what you said about music. It was all over the place back in the day, everywhere you turned. Inspirational music coming from the joy within. No music= no inspiration= no fun.
Off topic:
Hey, I saw you had a quote by James Brown earlier under your post. Did you know I got his autograph in 1986 when we were working at a hotel? He wrote "To John & Family. God bless. James Brown."
Good God!!!
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socks
Whoa! That's very cool, IGO! For a guy who loves to say "Hit me!" he's held up pretty good.
Hmmm....the beheading is an old story that's grown wings over the years. Actually I just lost my head one day and said I was feeling good, when what I really meant to say was "internal convictions based on principles that I've learned and am activating by believing action are producing positive results".
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Eagle
After all this time, I cannot believe that there are still some out there hanging on to VPW's idea
of scripture or the abundant life.
Oh well...believe it or not, people have cut my wife and I off from being friends, and I am talking off-shoots here.
Eagle
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