Why religion?

[sirguessalot]

more babbling on "why religion?" whilst i pass on by...read slow if you must...

B)

if we can consider how, like individuals, the world's average level of understanding development evolves in stages, building upon the previous lessons, there really was a time when mythic fundamentalism was truly a step beyond the egocentric behaviour of warlords and whatnot.

kinda like when a criminal mind genuinely moves beyond thinking they should be violently selfish simply because they "find Jesus" in a church. It was not the actual Jesus that saved from ultimate hell, but the symbol of him and various father figures used in church that saved the criminal from simply a prior hell, and gave him something to rally around for once. And...this could have been just about any functioning group-think who succeeds at lifting that hellraiser a notch. Though one can then also get stuck in this stage the rest of their lives, too, having mistaking that single glorious victorious rung for the whole darn ladder.

But the selfish are not going to be able to skip the group stage and jump right into the more rational world-view. In a sense, like how something cant simply move from atom to organ without first being some kind of cell. There is an inescapable sequence of growth in all things (though we can always and often do touch and taste and glimpse states beyond (and behind) our established footing for various reasons)

but ah...to enjoy the benefit of a healthier group interaction for the first time...no wonder people get so excited about it. and it typically takes a myth, or symbol, or metaphor to gather around...some sort of easily recognizable structure (for comfort and safety) to get us beyond the merely eating and pooping mind

...and of course, let us hope these leaps from poop to group and beyond happen well when we are still children, if nothing else...so those early mythic worldviews do not gain control of international political steering wheels.

(oops, too late)

:blink:

also, to bring it back out to the collective again...

from the histories of the judeo-christian lineage, i can see this leap recorded as: 1) wandering in egypt to 2) finally establishing the patriarchal temple structure which began way back with ole Abe's lineage of relatively revolutionary visions for establishing that necessary racial identity (before moving on)

(though other lineages faced this shift at other times...such as how egypt seems to have done so long before the isrealites...but the problem being (like israel faced later)...egypt also happened to be stuck in those ethnocentric agrarian patriarchies, which is why they treated the "fatherless pagans" like lesser beings...slaves, heathens, sinners, workhorses, less then, etc...)

...

again, if we can consider that, like individuals, the world's average level of understanding development evolves in stages, building upon the previous lessons, and that there really was a time when mythic fundamentalism truly was a step beyond the wilder and more egocentric behaviour....but now, the world has already moved beyond even that (perhaps first with what is often called the "great enlightenment" of the west), and is already "swelling" in another stage (which is even more open and free than the previous, especially as it pertains to freedom of information and speech and more public transparency and involvement than ever before)

but to move it back to the mythic level, in our present context...

if one believes that because the leap from self to church was a saving grace for human history, and/or simply for them, personally...it is perhaps because it truly is, and was, in part.

but now, there is also this new arrangement of truths that the patriarchs of old did not have to face. namely...a new world whose average worldview has never been so anti-mythically rational, and even worse...more recent waves of greater openess and transparency in dialogue and communication.

to die to one and move to another is like a baptism of fire, which hurts like hell inside until the work is done, like when faced with going from merely selfish to contributing member of a group (ouch), and then again faced with going from myth to greater reason (ouch), and then again when going from control of reason to greater overall concerns for freedom of information and speech and beyond...(ouch and ouch). there are those ever-renewed humilities that are required of us by God...not once, but again and again and again, til the end of time, it seems.

...

finally, to use a great gem and gift from that mythic age, it would seem that all these early dueling worldviews were also represented as far back as the prophet Ezekial, in the likeness of four beasts (though old eze's model seems to have identified a large part of the nature of man's trouble, he also seems to have lacked a fuller spectrum of the picture as represented in those later, more infamous works of heavy heavy revvy metaphor.)

B)

ok, i'll try to be done

sorry if it sounds like a lecture

i am just a troubador, really

just trying to be useful

its better to light a candle

than curse the darkness

...someone once said

...which sounds true nuff to me

peace

Edited November 18, 2005 by sirguessalot

[TheInvisibleDan]

Have you seen those new-fangled windshield wipers

on the recent car commercials

which automatically activate upon raindrops

hitting the windshield?

I thought of that idea 25-30 years ago.

And what did I do about it at the time?

Nothin'.

Damn.

Oh well.

We search the past to look into the future.

Edited November 18, 2005 by TheInvisibleDan

[socks]

Thinking of religion and what we do with it...two songs came to mind, the first, "Power in the Blood, by A3. This song, the music, makes the perfect statement of religious intolerance.. It's uh, irony. I think.

"Power in the Blood" - A3

No time for spindoctor’s medicine

Cooked up by the government, selling me some cover-up

Sponsored information, crack pipes in the shopping malls

Nothing but another drug, a license they can buy and sell

I don't mind a-dying

I don't mind dying

I don't mind dying

When that call it comes, I will be ready for war

No time for backhanded compliments

From bourgeois apologists desperate for an incident

Real-estate assassins, assessing my predicament

My dollar bills dependent upon it being in their interest

I don't mind a-dying

I don't mind dying

I don't mind dying

When that call it comes, I will be ready for war

CHORUS

There is power in the blood, justice in the sword

When that call it comes, I will be ready for war

Power in the blood, justice in the sword

When that call it comes, I will be ready

I will raise mah sword up right

To the bright and shining light,

Stained crimson red with the blood of the unredeemed

And as I cut them limb from limb, and I dash all their kith and kin,

You know, their bodies I will bury in the deep

Because there's power in the blood. Ha huh.

There's power in the blood.

I don't mind a-dying

I don't mind dying

I don't mind dying

When that call it comes, I will be ready for war, cause

CHORUS

There is power in the blood, justice in the sword

When that call it comes, I will be ready for war

Power in the blood, justice in the sword

When that call it comes, I will be ready

Or, another way....

"Shower the People" - James Taylor

You can play the game and you can act out the part

Though you know it wasn’t written for you

But tell me, how can you stand there with your broken heart

Ashamed of playing the fool

One thing can lead to another; it doesn’t take any sacrifice

Oh, father and mother, sister and brother

If it feels nice, don’t think twice

CHORUS

Just shower the people you love with love

Show them the way that you feel

Things are gonna work out fine if you only will

Shower the people you love with love

Show them the way you feel

Things are gonna be much better if you only will

You can run but you cannot hide

This is widely known

And what you plan to do with your foolish pride

When you’re all by yourself alone

Once you tell somebody the way that you feel

You can feel it beginning to ease

I think it’s true what they say about the squeaky wheel

Always getting the grease.

CHORUS

Better to shower the people you love with love

Show them the way that you feel

Things are gonna be just fine if you only will

Shower the people you love with love

Show them the way that you feel

Things are gonna be much better if you only will

Shower the people you love with love

Show them the way that you feel

[George Aar]

Of late we've been tormented with a revival of an old Edward R. Murrow serial "This I Believe" on NPR.

The most recent contribution to this often ponderous, sometimes vapid helping of drivel I found to be quite refreshing. Take a look at Penn Jillette's effort:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5015557

[Too Gray Now]

This person, Penn J., seems to embrace the mere thing he says he is free from...

Believing there's no God stops me from being solipsistic. I can read ideas from all different people from all different cultures. Without God, we can agree on reality,

He appears to be afflicted with a good bit of solipsism, indeed - thinking that unbelief in God gives him (his self) the highly valued ability to see reality as it is - like a virgin snowfall with no pesky self-inflicted tracks.

Personally I am glad that he has found joy, Hallmark cards, etc. But his boast that his unbelief has lead him to the door of - not just reality without the self - but agreeing on reality... I am not too sure about that claim, either.

Doesn't Penn J. realize that one man's portal to good can be another's portal to destruction? The door of unbelief has no mystical ability to free man from the self - for example:

Jeffery Dahmer stated that his belief in evolution led him to his rationale of devaluing life, to the point that he could see no force… no reason NOT to commit (what to us were) heinous acts. His version of “reality” was dripping with solipsism – and he claimed he was freed by his unbelief, as well. His freezer told of a different reality.

Some would say that a lack of belief in God will create a Jeffery Dahmer… That is stupid. I am not going down that road. But on the other side of the coin, I am NOT saying that the lack of belief in God will create the joy and "shared reality" of Penn Jillette.

I am saying I found it interesting that in both cases - these two men cite their unbelief and tout it as their portal to their NEW reality... which is a shared reality - if I take to heart Mr. Jillette's comment.

Sadly, I don’t think Jillette or Dahmer (VPW, LCM or anyone else... ) should have claimed “objective powers” when it comes to reality.

I do agree with you GEO…. It is refreshing to hear anyone talk of their experiences of joy, jello, fine wine and many other good things – but if Mr. Jillette is correct in his - sharing a reality -

...I am just not sure if I would swallow his concept of objective reality....

... I sure don't think I would have the guts look in his refrigerator.

Edited November 25, 2005 by Too Gray Now

[GarthP2000]

Too Gray Now,

First you say

Some would say that a lack of belief in God will create a Jeffery Dahmer… That is stupid. I am not going down that road.

yet you (inadvertantly perhaps) start heading down that road when you say thusly:

...I am just not sure if I would swallow his (Penn J.'s) concept of objective reality .... I sure don't think I would have the guts look in his refrigerator.

and the clue that I think is pushing you in that direction is given here:

The door of unbelief has no mystical ability to free man from the self

Have you ever read any of Carl Sagan's works? No 'mystical ability' to see beyond himself? His entire _life_ illustrates how wonderous, and even mystical he views life to be. Yet he is an atheist. Not a strong atheist mind you, but one nonetheless (ie., an unbeliever).

Here are a few of his quotes that gives you a clue to where his mindset was, and how free from himself he was:

If we long to believe that the stars rise and set for us, that we are the reason there is a Universe, does science do us a disservice in deflating our conceits?

In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion.

My deeply held belief is that if a god anything like the traditional sort exists, our curiosity and intelligence are provided by such a god. We would be unappreciative of those gifts... if we suppressed our passion to explore the universe and ourselves.

As different from the likes of Jeffery Dahmar as day is from night.

No need to be afraid of what was in his freezer.

[George Aar]

I'm not quite sure that you're reading him right, Gray one.

Or maybe I need to be straightened out in what I'm missing in Mr. Jillette's screed.

The conversation I see him lauding as the "correct" one, is one where factual, verifiable issues are discussed, not squishy, ethereal, basically superstitious, beliefs. If we talk about the rotation of the earth, the possibility of life on Mars, or the wisdom of putting oysters in turkey dressing, there are quite a number of facts and figures and data that can be brought into the debate. Stuff that can be verified or falsified, so as to, eventually, get to some sort of conclusion that maybe can be relied on. Something that can be proven or falsified again and again by rational people.

With religion, or a belief in God speicifically, that's simply not the case. There's nothing that can be analyzed, verified, tested. In fact, most religions go to great lengths to thoroughly (throughly?) denounce anyone who would even suggest that maybe verification is a good thing. No, no, no! You must have faith! And anyone who doesn't, who dares to question the veracity of the Most High, well, they're obviously some sort of knuckle-dragging neanderthal - an utterly debauched person. I've even heard of wives leaving their husbands beause he no longer "believed", oh, maybe that's just an urban legend...

So what happens then? Well, whatever religion has the hegemony gets the "default" setting in our private - and even public - lives. A meeting of The Order of the Grand Poobahs gets together, we all have to bow our heads in prayer before the meeting starts. In some areas (the South comes to mind) anything is fair game for religious rites, football games, baseball, wrestling, Labor Day picnics, 4th of July, - anything. So everyone in attendance has to play along and pretend that, yes, they too have an invisible friend. And whoa unto those that protest such, "What's wrong with YOU? You a member of the ACLU or some commie outfit like that?" It's not earthshaking, but it IS irksome. Even the President can declare a "National Day of Prayer" when he feels moved to do such things. I wonder what the Judeo/Christian crowd would make of it if the President revealed that he was a dedicated believer in Astrology and decided to decree a "National Day of Chart Reading"?

So, yeah, I'm far more in favor of Penn's vision of the world as it should be. Rational people talking about things that can actually be researched and learned. Unlike what passes for "research" in the religious field, where arcane texts of dubious origin and content get pored over for years on end so that one can know exactly how many times "theraphim" is used.

One could get entirely too caught up in proving what is objective and what is not. What's reality and what's not. But if we could simply allow ourselves to think outside the parameters of superstition, do you really think that we'd be the worse off for it?

[Too Gray Now]

Garth - I'd like to draw attention to my observation. Maybe that will help to clarify what I was saying...

I am saying I found it interesting that in both cases - these two men cite their unbelief and tout it as their portal to their NEW reality... which is a shared reality - if I take to heart Mr. Jillette's comment.

It was Penn's assertion that a shared reality results. If he and Dahmer shared the same premise, then - according to Penn - I should consider it an objective observation that they share the same reality??? God, I hope not... That is the irony - I did not want to say it, but in one sense, he did.

Now, do I think that I am reading him the way he wants to be read and understood? I am quite sure - I did not. Re-read my quote, above - and then consdier this...

Sadly, I don’t think Jillette or Dahmer (VPW, LCM or anyone else... ) should have claimed “objective powers” when it comes to reality.

He said... .

Believing there's no God stops me from being solipsistic.

Again, do I really think I am parsing him the way he would like? I doubt it.

I simply read Geo's link and wrote about it along the lines mentioned.

Some of the stuff I put in my post (like the fridge wisecrack) was because I thought it gave a stark contrast between what was "promised", and what one should expect to find, and what one (in fact) MIGHT find... much like our experience with VPW, LCM, and others.

Peace.

[Too Gray Now]

Geo...

I'm not quite sure that you're reading him right, Gray one.

I agree. I hope my last post sort of clears up what I was doing and why. I have no bone to pick with what I THINK he was trying to say - I simply picked on him as if I was still an oversensitive, non-recovered, copped-out Way Corps grad. (Which I don't think I am. It is a posting personna sort of thing - kind of like you have a disctintion of being a curmudgeon - I am just trying to express the fact that I am too old for the $*@!* that I used to believe. Now I believe NEW shi* )

Actually, Geo, I found his references to the simple pleasures of life and what I think he was saying - to be - refreshing. I think you nailed it with that word.

As far as some your other points in your post - I hear ya. At least I think I do. I want to, anyway. :huh:

Oh yes... women do leave their husbands - and vice versa - I know. My dad was married 4 times. I understood how to burn through women, very early in life.

I know that when I alienated my first love over my new found Way religion and I made a big mistake - in my opinion. I trivialized what we shared and emphasized what we did not share. I handled the whole thing badly, IMO. The rest is history. I moved on. So did she.

Tolerating contradictions to my "version" of reality du jour is part and parcel of my daily cross - to borrow a Christian term.

I find that virtues are great and do not require any specific rule of faith to embrace them. I think many of your posts elude to that point. I think many people would benefit from your point of view about this simply because "the unbeliever" - in our Way days, was said to belong to Satan. To which, I say, horsemanure.

As far as people down South - You will be glad to know that GREAT strides have been made in the area of pre-game prayer. For instance, praying to the Great Gymnastics spirit to keep the gymnasts safe and without injury (They say that.... because too many people were ....ed at hearing the word "god". )... and I... as a heretic en route, searching for Peace on Earth and Good Will Towards ALL Men - am I just supposed to stand there and support my kid and her team mates???

....ah . yuh.

Any other response would be because:

One could get entirely too caught up in proving what is objective and what is not. What's reality and what's not.

Seems like the whole planet would benefit from taking massive doses of porportion pills. Just to keep things in balance.