I'm home ill but felt enough response inside (thankfully not the kind I'm home in part for) that I needed to reply.
I will speak from experience cause it's what I have.
I never knew I was raised Trinitarian until in my personal studies of different faiths (which was some spiked due to politics) I found such a stumbling of that word in explanation. So I began to put it together in my own head and in so discovered my childhood faith believed in the triune God. And of course twi does not! I found that God was in all three inseparable and thus that simple explanation I kept seeing woven into the words of different faiths. Even twi! Wowsie Rosie!
I refrained from admitting I thought it was a language barrier for reasons probably heavily in fear that someone in their fervor against it may tick me off. :D
For me the word "TRINITY" simply is NOT present in any BIBLE I've dared to pick up and read..
And it use to 'tick me off' when I would be told by 'Dogmatic Religious Folks' that if I didn't believe "Jesus was GOD" then I was the 'antichrist' - and condemned to hell.
In reality -- the Bible never says that believing Jesus is God - kills the deal to everlasting life.
If I recall it correct. John 3:16 bears the passage
"For God so loved the World that he gave his ONLY Begotten SON, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
Then in reading a bit more.....
"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned already, becase he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
So to all those people who would Judge someone for being In or Against the Trinity -- I say HOGWASH, its not that STRICT at all.. First we believe in GOD the father, then the fact he sent us a Saviour (his only begotten SON), then his Son gets Resurrected and is seated on the Right Hand of the throne of God, and Holy Spirit is now available to all who believe! We are joint-heirs with Christ, therefore we are ALSO Sons/Daughters of God.
Its really that simple to me, I don't care to LABEL GOD. I just Believe in my Creator, and I have my own personal walk with him, and I RESPECT that other people are sure capable of 'walking with God' however it is in their hearts and minds to 'understand' God's existance.
I would like to have those 'Religious, Holier-than-thou' folks STOP labeling all of us who do NOT particiipate in a 'TRINITY' Doctrine. The word simply is NO WHERE IN SCRIPTURE TO BE FOUND....
But Hey, I'm not gonna condemn ANYONE to HELL for thinking different than I do........
But those people who are 'name calling' and making a huge fuss one way or another. I have this final thing to say.
"A man/woman convinced Against their will..... is of the same opinion still....."
Hi Def. Well the topic is a fair question and ChattyKathy has pretty much said what I was going to say. We in Wayworld get to thinking it's a big deal because VP wrote a book called Jesus Christ is Not God. But that's myopic. It's a big deal because the mainstream Church makes it so. I worked at a gospel radio station during my early years in TWI. I got to talk with a lot of ministers and their associates who came in to do their broadcasts. Great people for the most part. There was one particular fellow whom I befriended who was perhaps just as zealous a Christian as any WC grad. He was very broadminded about "The Kingdom" and did his best to love Christians of every stripe. His mentor was a wonderfully charismatic man who used to play the piano in a brothel. But as loving and liberal as he was, he drew the line at Unitarians. When confronted with a new doctrine, he would often quip, "if it doesn't violate the Trinity, it doesn't violate me".
I was discussing the Constitiution and the Christian aspects of our governrment once with another minister with whom I worked a few years later (selling hearing aids). Mr. Smith, who is a graduate of Jerry Falwell's Liberty University, dismissed the idea of the U.S. as a Christian nation and somewhat derisively said of the Founding Fathers, "They weren't Christians. They were Deists."
And I'm sure I'm not the only one who's tried to join a mainstream Christian web discussion forum only to be told at the virtual door that if I don't believe in the Trinity, I'm not welcome.
The Trinity is a big deal because the established Churches are run by Trinitarians and they don't like having people question it. They have succeeded in establishing the Triune God as the sacred cow of modern Christianity. You're allowed to ask a question once or twice, but if you really challenge it, you will eventually get tossed out on your ear and branded a heretic.
For me the word "TRINITY" simply is NOT present in any BIBLE I've dared to pick up and read..
And it use to 'tick me off' when I would be told by 'Dogmatic Religious Folks' that if I didn't believe "Jesus was GOD" then I was the 'antichrist' - and condemned to hell.
In reality -- the Bible never says that believing Jesus is God - kills the deal to everlasting life.
If I recall it correct. John 3:16 bears the passage
"For God so loved the World that he gave his ONLY Begotten SON, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
Then in reading a bit more.....
"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned already, becase he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
So to all those people who would Judge someone for being In or Against the Trinity -- I say HOGWASH, its not that STRICT at all.. First we believe in GOD the father, then the fact he sent us a Saviour (his only begotten SON), then his Son gets Resurrected and is seated on the Right Hand of the throne of God, and Holy Spirit is now available to all who believe! We are joint-heirs with Christ, therefore we are ALSO Sons/Daughters of God.
Its really that simple to me, I don't care to LABEL GOD. I just Believe in my Creator, and I have my own personal walk with him, and I RESPECT that other people are sure capable of 'walking with God' however it is in their hearts and minds to 'understand' God's existance.
I would like to have those 'Religious, Holier-than-thou' folks STOP labeling all of us who do NOT particiipate in a 'TRINITY' Doctrine. The word simply is NO WHERE IN SCRIPTURE TO BE FOUND....
But Hey, I'm not gonna condemn ANYONE to HELL for thinking different than I do........
Some people seem to derive comfort by labelling others "wrong".
"Wrong", you see, is often largely a matter of
"different than me".
Thus, those who left twi before or after me were "wrong".
George Carlin pointed out that all drivers driving slower than you are "idiots",
and all drivers driving faster than you are "maniacs".
All Christians who have a different belief than you are "wrong"
and face any of a number of sanctions or penalties.
But those people who are 'name calling' and making a huge fuss one way or another. I have this final thing to say.
"A man/woman convinced Against their will..... is of the same opinion still....."
Thought you'd like to know, the original saying is
That is all I can say because, just newly out of WAYBRAIN, "all beliefs in our repitoire are suspect!"
It is not a good feeling to be back to "i don't know".
I USED to KNOW (i thought) And there was some level of comfort to that.
Now , I don't know, and it is very annoying.
I listen to constant debates about this issue. Trying out new churches and seeing the trinity or at least another variation (some don't believe in the Trinity, they just believe Jesus is God the son, not the Father) is prevelant in all of them.
So many in fact, I am more confused.
Only ones outside of Way, J C and Mormon, would be Unitarian?
I just ask God to lead me, and see if I can still worship God my way no matter what "church" I stay in.
The trinity is not a big deal for me anymore. That's why I let other folks hash it out here.
I don't see where being trinitarian or not makes a whole lot of difference. There are wonderful Christians on both sides - bad ones too. The trinity only becomes a problem when belief in it or rejection of it is met with condemnation. We should be tolerant regardles of which side we are on.
I dont think anyone is going to hell because they do or don't believe in the trinity. However, those who murdered over it might have a problem.
That is all I can say because, just newly out of WAYBRAIN, "all beliefs in our repitoire are suspect!"
It is not a good feeling to be back to "i don't know".
I USED to KNOW (i thought) And there was some level of comfort to that.
Now , I don't know, and it is very annoying.
I listen to constant debates about this issue. Trying out new churches and seeing the trinity or at least another variation (some don't believe in the Trinity, they just believe Jesus is God the son, not the Father) is prevelant in all of them.
So many in fact, I am more confused.
Only ones outside of Way, J C and Mormon, would be Unitarian?
I just ask God to lead me, and see if I can still worship God my way no matter what "church" I stay in.
Your post brought back memories. It was amazing to me to have felt so cemented I thought in things of man's doctrine. The Word I knew before twi so that was not my awakening by any means yet I learned things still gratefully held.....but I remember when I began to think on my own again without constrain. That's the best way I know how to describe what it felt like when I was going through what you just described. Or close enough to it to really feel what you were saying. It can be rather scary and exciting as well.
Only ones outside of Way, J C and Mormon, would be Unitarian?
If you have Apostolics or Christadelphians in your town,
you'll find they're not trinitarians either.
I just ask God to lead me, and see if I can still worship God my way no matter what "church" I stay in.
And that about sums it up.
The trinity is not a big deal for me anymore. That's why I let other folks hash it out here.
I don't see where being trinitarian or not makes a whole lot of difference. There are wonderful Christians on both sides - bad ones too. The trinity only becomes a problem when belief in it or rejection of it is met with condemnation. We should be tolerant regardles of which side we are on.
I dont think anyone is going to hell because they do or don't believe in the trinity. However, those who murdered over it might have a problem.
Okay someone refresh me. In twi we were taught Jesus Christ was a man with an earthly mother and heavenly Father right?
So why is all this now becoming such a non-issue to me?
It seems to me regardless of your religion if you believe Jesus Christ and the holy spirit were of God then you have one leg in triune beliefs right off the bat, or have I become too lax in my thinking here?
Have any of you listened to www.unchainedradio.com?
It is run by a pastor Gene Cook, and he has great Christian Music on Real Player, but he has a ton of trinity debates almost weekly......Very interesting.
Actually John Schoenheit was on a few weeks ago debating him on trinitarian/unitarian beliefs.
Last week, he debated a Jehovah's Witness......I gotta tell you the JC put him to shame. (he knew more of the ancient languages than Cook)
He also has the "Atheist Hour", where they call in and share why they are Atheists and what they believe etc...
I am gaining an understanding of what exactly people believe instead of just believing what the Way told me to believe. I would form opinions about everything only based on leadership opinion!
I never really knew what a trinitarian believed until I listened to these debates.
However, those who murdered over it might have a problem.
But then keep in mind, that there are those (even today) who do not consider killing those who commit heresy as 'murder', and might even be quite annoyed at those who do call it murder.
But then keep in mind, that there are those (even today) who do not consider killing those who commit heresy as 'murder', and might even be quite annoyed at those who do call it murder.
I've seen this attitude displayed personally. ;)
Some people just talk tough - thank goodness that's all they can do nowadays.
I find references to "the Christ-God" pre-dating the Trinitarian formula to be far more interesting, such as the recent discovery of a mosaic floor to an anceint church in Palestine, dedicated to "the Christ God". The notion that Christ was viewed God was well understood apart from the metaphysical acrobatics of the late formula, which I realize many view as the best thing since sliced bread, but which quite frankly does little for me by virtue of its rather glaring transparancy. In my opinion, its conveys little practical about the actual "nature" of God, and blows just as much hot air as certain of the Unitarian position in this regard.
I don't see where being trinitarian or not makes a whole lot of difference. There are wonderful Christians on both sides - bad ones too. The trinity only becomes a problem when belief in it or rejection of it is met with condemnation. We should be tolerant regardles of which side we are on.
I couldn't agree more. Tolerance was a BAD word in twi. Yet tolerance has afforded me much freedom since leaving twi.
I don't feel I've sacrificed my integrity by becoming so tolerant. I know there are extremists on both sides, and where does it get them? Usually feeling mad, hateful, and unforgiving.....like we need more of that in this world.
After leaving twi, I considered that all I was taught may not have been correct. The Trinity was the huge issue in my mind when I first left. As a matter of fact, that issue alone caused me a lot of mental torment because I knew any church I went to (beside JWs and other mentioned) would believe JC was God. A lot of the Trinitarians I met and watched were the most loving people I ever encountered. I think it was because they had a true relationship with their Savior and had compassion for people. I just know when I was so staunch in my beliefs, I had little compassion in my heart.
I haven't run in to many JWs who are so compassionate. As a matter of fact, most JWs I've encountered remind me a lot of wayfers. Is it because they are so uptight about holding the "truth" that nothing else matters?
I know there is a lot of hair raising on both sides when someone asserts their beliefs in the subject. despite being raised in the Methodist Church, I never believed that Jesus Christ was God. Maybe it was partly because of it...indoctrination on lower levels was never too big, and Sunday School classes were more, well, light than anything else, even when the Bible was taught. But the senior pastor at the Methodist Church I went to for a while after TWI in the early 80s didn't believe it either. When I found out, of course I never pressed the issue with anyone else that he didn't believe it. He let it slip quietly during a membership class. I don't think anyone else in the class cared, for the same reason...indoctrination on that level didnt happen. But I can imagine how that would have shaken up the higher ups.
At that point, it is possible that he didnt care as much if people found out, as he was near retirement.
There must be a time limit on editing one's own post. No big deal. I meant to add, maybe the subtitle of this thread can just as easily be stated, "Is your faith in question if Jesus is not really God after all?"
I haven't run in to many JWs who are so compassionate. As a matter of fact, most JWs I've encountered remind me a lot of wayfers. Is it because they are so uptight about holding the "truth" that nothing else matters?
Yes.
... maybe the subtitle of this thread can just as easily be stated, "Is your faith in question if Jesus is not really God after all?"
Whatever Dale is on to...if anything...he is saying, almost it seems in answer to this thread, that it IS a big deal. And I really didn't see anything too new here.
Jesus often used analogies in the world to reflect truths in Gods' Word. I utilise this learning tool too if debates come up on things like 'can a Father be His son at the same time' ? 'Is homosexuality naturally occuring in the animal kingdom' etc..
Often the simplicity of Gods' creation reflects the intent in Gods' Word.
Actually Allan, not to be pedantic BUT....homosexuality DOES exist and flourish in the animal kingdom....lol You must not have had very many pets or been around farm animals very much....
Bulls `l mount each other nearly constantly throughout adolecence, heck, they aren`t even particular about crossing the species barrier.....as I had one that mounted my mares....I have a male rat terrier that mounts the male shepherds tailes (it is all he can reach) whenever the female rat terrier goes into heat (sadly my sons dreams of making money selling puppies looks like it is doomed to failure sigh) .......ok ok animal behavioral lecture is finished for today :) .....but you must consider that using a flawed analogy to try to make a point does not lend very much credibility to your pov.
The Trinity is a big deal because the established Churches are run by Trinitarians and they don't like having people question it. They have succeeded in establishing the Triune God as the sacred cow of modern Christianity. You're allowed to ask a question once or twice, but if you really challenge it, you will eventually get tossed out on your ear and branded a heretic.
And I believe that is the crux of the whole matter. The RCC back in the middle ages needed a way to ensure that they retained power over the populace through the priesthood. The trinity is mysterious, it is not readily comprehensible (which is why the argument goes on) therefore a priest is needed to explain the mystery, no priest = no explanation--helps to keep the flock in line when the priest is the only one with the answers.
and for the record
Mormons believe in three separate and distinct personages, God the eternal Father, His son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. These constitute the Godhead and are one in purpose
Unitarians believe In God. They believe that Christ was a great moral teacher, not God's son; and don't believe in the e Holy Ghost at all,.
And I believe that is the crux of the whole matter. The RCC back in the middle ages needed a way to ensure that they retained power over the populace through the priesthood. The trinity is mysterious, it is not readily comprehensible (which is why the argument goes on) therefore a priest is needed to explain the mystery, no priest = no explanation--helps to keep the flock in line when the priest is the only one with the answers
Sorry Templelady, but the doctrine of the Trinity is a whole lot older than that. Of course, we have the discussion of the trinitarian baptismal formula in Matt 28:19 (and also as reported in the Didache -- AD 70). If you care to look at Tertullian in his document, Ad Praxeas, devoted entirely to defending the doctrine. And that one was written circa AD 208. The first usage of the term that I know of was Theophilus in 181 AD. But the concept was clearly referred to by writers as ancient as Ignatius of Antioch (circa AD 110). The point is that the term Trinity was a doctrine of the Church long, long before the Middle Ages...and was well established centuries before the Nicene Council.
Now, I'll grant you that it could be a plot by the "Roman Catholic Church" to maintain control over their people, but that plot pre-dated the middle ages by just a little bit!
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ChattyKathy
I'm home ill but felt enough response inside (thankfully not the kind I'm home in part for) that I needed to reply.
I will speak from experience cause it's what I have.
I never knew I was raised Trinitarian until in my personal studies of different faiths (which was some spiked due to politics) I found such a stumbling of that word in explanation. So I began to put it together in my own head and in so discovered my childhood faith believed in the triune God. And of course twi does not! I found that God was in all three inseparable and thus that simple explanation I kept seeing woven into the words of different faiths. Even twi! Wowsie Rosie!
I refrained from admitting I thought it was a language barrier for reasons probably heavily in fear that someone in their fervor against it may tick me off. :D
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jetc57
For me the word "TRINITY" simply is NOT present in any BIBLE I've dared to pick up and read..
And it use to 'tick me off' when I would be told by 'Dogmatic Religious Folks' that if I didn't believe "Jesus was GOD" then I was the 'antichrist' - and condemned to hell.
In reality -- the Bible never says that believing Jesus is God - kills the deal to everlasting life.
If I recall it correct. John 3:16 bears the passage
"For God so loved the World that he gave his ONLY Begotten SON, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
Then in reading a bit more.....
"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned already, becase he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
So to all those people who would Judge someone for being In or Against the Trinity -- I say HOGWASH, its not that STRICT at all.. First we believe in GOD the father, then the fact he sent us a Saviour (his only begotten SON), then his Son gets Resurrected and is seated on the Right Hand of the throne of God, and Holy Spirit is now available to all who believe! We are joint-heirs with Christ, therefore we are ALSO Sons/Daughters of God.
Its really that simple to me, I don't care to LABEL GOD. I just Believe in my Creator, and I have my own personal walk with him, and I RESPECT that other people are sure capable of 'walking with God' however it is in their hearts and minds to 'understand' God's existance.
I would like to have those 'Religious, Holier-than-thou' folks STOP labeling all of us who do NOT particiipate in a 'TRINITY' Doctrine. The word simply is NO WHERE IN SCRIPTURE TO BE FOUND....
But Hey, I'm not gonna condemn ANYONE to HELL for thinking different than I do........
But those people who are 'name calling' and making a huge fuss one way or another. I have this final thing to say.
"A man/woman convinced Against their will..... is of the same opinion still....."
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Jbarrax
Hi Def. Well the topic is a fair question and ChattyKathy has pretty much said what I was going to say. We in Wayworld get to thinking it's a big deal because VP wrote a book called Jesus Christ is Not God. But that's myopic. It's a big deal because the mainstream Church makes it so. I worked at a gospel radio station during my early years in TWI. I got to talk with a lot of ministers and their associates who came in to do their broadcasts. Great people for the most part. There was one particular fellow whom I befriended who was perhaps just as zealous a Christian as any WC grad. He was very broadminded about "The Kingdom" and did his best to love Christians of every stripe. His mentor was a wonderfully charismatic man who used to play the piano in a brothel. But as loving and liberal as he was, he drew the line at Unitarians. When confronted with a new doctrine, he would often quip, "if it doesn't violate the Trinity, it doesn't violate me".
I was discussing the Constitiution and the Christian aspects of our governrment once with another minister with whom I worked a few years later (selling hearing aids). Mr. Smith, who is a graduate of Jerry Falwell's Liberty University, dismissed the idea of the U.S. as a Christian nation and somewhat derisively said of the Founding Fathers, "They weren't Christians. They were Deists."
And I'm sure I'm not the only one who's tried to join a mainstream Christian web discussion forum only to be told at the virtual door that if I don't believe in the Trinity, I'm not welcome.
The Trinity is a big deal because the established Churches are run by Trinitarians and they don't like having people question it. They have succeeded in establishing the Triune God as the sacred cow of modern Christianity. You're allowed to ask a question once or twice, but if you really challenge it, you will eventually get tossed out on your ear and branded a heretic.
JerryB
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WordWolf
I never got THAT one.
POSSESSED, yes, HERETIC, yes, UNSAVED, yes, IDOLATOR, yes,
but not 'antichrist'.
Some people seem to derive comfort by labelling others "wrong"."Wrong", you see, is often largely a matter of
"different than me".
Thus, those who left twi before or after me were "wrong".
George Carlin pointed out that all drivers driving slower than you are "idiots",
and all drivers driving faster than you are "maniacs".
All Christians who have a different belief than you are "wrong"
and face any of a number of sanctions or penalties.
Thought you'd like to know, the original saying is
"He who is forced to agree against his will
is of the same opinion still."
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bliss
Interesting.
That is all I can say because, just newly out of WAYBRAIN, "all beliefs in our repitoire are suspect!"
It is not a good feeling to be back to "i don't know".
I USED to KNOW (i thought) And there was some level of comfort to that.
Now , I don't know, and it is very annoying.
I listen to constant debates about this issue. Trying out new churches and seeing the trinity or at least another variation (some don't believe in the Trinity, they just believe Jesus is God the son, not the Father) is prevelant in all of them.
So many in fact, I am more confused.
Only ones outside of Way, J C and Mormon, would be Unitarian?
I just ask God to lead me, and see if I can still worship God my way no matter what "church" I stay in.
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Goey
The trinity is not a big deal for me anymore. That's why I let other folks hash it out here.
I don't see where being trinitarian or not makes a whole lot of difference. There are wonderful Christians on both sides - bad ones too. The trinity only becomes a problem when belief in it or rejection of it is met with condemnation. We should be tolerant regardles of which side we are on.
I dont think anyone is going to hell because they do or don't believe in the trinity. However, those who murdered over it might have a problem.
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ChattyKathy
Your post brought back memories. It was amazing to me to have felt so cemented I thought in things of man's doctrine. The Word I knew before twi so that was not my awakening by any means yet I learned things still gratefully held.....but I remember when I began to think on my own again without constrain. That's the best way I know how to describe what it felt like when I was going through what you just described. Or close enough to it to really feel what you were saying. It can be rather scary and exciting as well.
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WordWolf
If you have Apostolics or Christadelphians in your town,
you'll find they're not trinitarians either.
And that about sums it up.I don't think I can improve upon this post.
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ChattyKathy
Okay someone refresh me. In twi we were taught Jesus Christ was a man with an earthly mother and heavenly Father right?
So why is all this now becoming such a non-issue to me?
It seems to me regardless of your religion if you believe Jesus Christ and the holy spirit were of God then you have one leg in triune beliefs right off the bat, or have I become too lax in my thinking here?
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bliss
Have any of you listened to www.unchainedradio.com?
It is run by a pastor Gene Cook, and he has great Christian Music on Real Player, but he has a ton of trinity debates almost weekly......Very interesting.
Actually John Schoenheit was on a few weeks ago debating him on trinitarian/unitarian beliefs.
Last week, he debated a Jehovah's Witness......I gotta tell you the JC put him to shame. (he knew more of the ancient languages than Cook)
He also has the "Atheist Hour", where they call in and share why they are Atheists and what they believe etc...
I am gaining an understanding of what exactly people believe instead of just believing what the Way told me to believe. I would form opinions about everything only based on leadership opinion!
I never really knew what a trinitarian believed until I listened to these debates.
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GarthP2000
But then keep in mind, that there are those (even today) who do not consider killing those who commit heresy as 'murder', and might even be quite annoyed at those who do call it murder.
I've seen this attitude displayed personally. ;)
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TheInvisibleDan
Some people just talk tough - thank goodness that's all they can do nowadays.
I find references to "the Christ-God" pre-dating the Trinitarian formula to be far more interesting, such as the recent discovery of a mosaic floor to an anceint church in Palestine, dedicated to "the Christ God". The notion that Christ was viewed God was well understood apart from the metaphysical acrobatics of the late formula, which I realize many view as the best thing since sliced bread, but which quite frankly does little for me by virtue of its rather glaring transparancy. In my opinion, its conveys little practical about the actual "nature" of God, and blows just as much hot air as certain of the Unitarian position in this regard.
Danny
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CWF
Wasn't Trinity a old Cowboy Movie?
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Nottawayfer
I couldn't agree more. Tolerance was a BAD word in twi. Yet tolerance has afforded me much freedom since leaving twi.
I don't feel I've sacrificed my integrity by becoming so tolerant. I know there are extremists on both sides, and where does it get them? Usually feeling mad, hateful, and unforgiving.....like we need more of that in this world.
After leaving twi, I considered that all I was taught may not have been correct. The Trinity was the huge issue in my mind when I first left. As a matter of fact, that issue alone caused me a lot of mental torment because I knew any church I went to (beside JWs and other mentioned) would believe JC was God. A lot of the Trinitarians I met and watched were the most loving people I ever encountered. I think it was because they had a true relationship with their Savior and had compassion for people. I just know when I was so staunch in my beliefs, I had little compassion in my heart.
I haven't run in to many JWs who are so compassionate. As a matter of fact, most JWs I've encountered remind me a lot of wayfers. Is it because they are so uptight about holding the "truth" that nothing else matters?
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Lifted Up
I know there is a lot of hair raising on both sides when someone asserts their beliefs in the subject. despite being raised in the Methodist Church, I never believed that Jesus Christ was God. Maybe it was partly because of it...indoctrination on lower levels was never too big, and Sunday School classes were more, well, light than anything else, even when the Bible was taught. But the senior pastor at the Methodist Church I went to for a while after TWI in the early 80s didn't believe it either. When I found out, of course I never pressed the issue with anyone else that he didn't believe it. He let it slip quietly during a membership class. I don't think anyone else in the class cared, for the same reason...indoctrination on that level didnt happen. But I can imagine how that would have shaken up the higher ups.
At that point, it is possible that he didnt care as much if people found out, as he was near retirement.
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Lifted Up
There must be a time limit on editing one's own post. No big deal. I meant to add, maybe the subtitle of this thread can just as easily be stated, "Is your faith in question if Jesus is not really God after all?"
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Raf
I was about to say the same thing.
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jetc57
Hey has anyone see this article?
I think the writer may very well be on to something.......
http://www.lmci.org/articles.cfm?Article=78
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Lifted Up
Whatever Dale is on to...if anything...he is saying, almost it seems in answer to this thread, that it IS a big deal. And I really didn't see anything too new here.
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Allan
Jesus often used analogies in the world to reflect truths in Gods' Word. I utilise this learning tool too if debates come up on things like 'can a Father be His son at the same time' ? 'Is homosexuality naturally occuring in the animal kingdom' etc..
Often the simplicity of Gods' creation reflects the intent in Gods' Word.
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rascal
Actually Allan, not to be pedantic BUT....homosexuality DOES exist and flourish in the animal kingdom....lol You must not have had very many pets or been around farm animals very much....
Bulls `l mount each other nearly constantly throughout adolecence, heck, they aren`t even particular about crossing the species barrier.....as I had one that mounted my mares....I have a male rat terrier that mounts the male shepherds tailes (it is all he can reach) whenever the female rat terrier goes into heat (sadly my sons dreams of making money selling puppies looks like it is doomed to failure sigh) .......ok ok animal behavioral lecture is finished for today :) .....but you must consider that using a flawed analogy to try to make a point does not lend very much credibility to your pov.
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templelady
And I believe that is the crux of the whole matter. The RCC back in the middle ages needed a way to ensure that they retained power over the populace through the priesthood. The trinity is mysterious, it is not readily comprehensible (which is why the argument goes on) therefore a priest is needed to explain the mystery, no priest = no explanation--helps to keep the flock in line when the priest is the only one with the answers.
and for the record
Mormons believe in three separate and distinct personages, God the eternal Father, His son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. These constitute the Godhead and are one in purpose
Unitarians believe In God. They believe that Christ was a great moral teacher, not God's son; and don't believe in the e Holy Ghost at all,.
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markomalley
Sorry Templelady, but the doctrine of the Trinity is a whole lot older than that. Of course, we have the discussion of the trinitarian baptismal formula in Matt 28:19 (and also as reported in the Didache -- AD 70). If you care to look at Tertullian in his document, Ad Praxeas, devoted entirely to defending the doctrine. And that one was written circa AD 208. The first usage of the term that I know of was Theophilus in 181 AD. But the concept was clearly referred to by writers as ancient as Ignatius of Antioch (circa AD 110). The point is that the term Trinity was a doctrine of the Church long, long before the Middle Ages...and was well established centuries before the Nicene Council.
Now, I'll grant you that it could be a plot by the "Roman Catholic Church" to maintain control over their people, but that plot pre-dated the middle ages by just a little bit!
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Allan
Yes Rascal, there are 'freaks' even in nature but it is definitely NOT the NORM !
'Adolescent' bulls is the key word is it not ? Young and inexperienced and 'naieve'.
Can a bull be 'naieve' (sp)?
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