Most churches are proud of their numbers and make this information available to its members.
I work in alot of churches around the country and almost everyone will have a weekly bulletin or info packet of some kind that has the attendance figures and the weekly contributions as well as the operating budgets. It seems a common part of nearly every church (at least the ones I have been to) to be open , honest and well ...christian in their approach to their members, whether they have 5 members or 50,000.
I don't know if it is a pride thing so much as an attitude of openness, honesty and accountability that most churches carry, three things that were never in the TWI corporate vocabulary.
TWI in recent years is very private about their numbers because they speak volumes about their downward spiral in my opinion
True enough, It is a good indicater that the organization is incredibly sick and in need of attention, but like most things TWI it is swept under the carpet, undealt with, and denied as the death spiral continues on.
...Of course, even if they had only 5 or 6 members left, they would continue to plan BOD "meetings" in the Bahamas or Cancun...living off of the money that you and I supplied them with 20 years ago. They gave up any serious goals for outreach when Martindale announced years ago that the word had gone over the world...what a joke.
Hey you guys......HOW CAN YOU COMPARE TWI TO THESE CHURCHES..HUH??? After all they're definitely not a church right? They made that very very clear during my dozen years trekking to Ohio....& IF they ever Became a church..oh God forbid that would/could ever happen. & yet they referrred to themselves as a "church in the home"..remember that one?? Very confusing..I mean..which is it?? OR "was it"???
It was in TWI that I learned the real meaning of the word "Church", isn't it merely the 'body of believers'. Even when two or more are gathered in HIS name, they can be called a 'church'?
It helped confirm for me that one doesn't need to 'worship God in a building'.
As to the reduction in membership, I think the biggest reduction occurred in the 80s sometime?
They lost a great deal of people and FUNDS.... yet somehow they are hanging in there....
...and they still sell and promote The Rise & Expansion of the Christian Church in the First Century by Martindale, which discusses and promotes numerical expansion.
Yeah.......twi can NO LONGER hide behind a facade of "prominant importance."
I pulled out my clergy file the other day......and its AMAZING to see how few are still supportive of the twi propaganda. So many exited their doors in the 80s......dozens who exited before veepee's death and the onslaught of the lcm regime. I firmly believe that lcm accelerated the exiting process.....BUT THIS EXODUS WOULD HAVE HAPPENED IN SPITE OF LCM'S BLUNDERS.
In a word.....twi SUCKS. As a bureaucratic behemoth, it sucks the time, resources, relationships, ad infinitum from its followers.......and consequently, through the process of living life one awakens to the reality of it all. Twi takes and takes........and takes some more. Twi, at its corporate headquarters, is an abyss of arrogance and idolatry.
Twi's rhetoric is falling on DEAF EARS.......even the long-standing innies are awakened to the hypocrisy as the field reporting is so dismal. Very few results......very few want this cultish climate moving into their lives and consuming them. It sure ain't the early 70s any more!!!
Twi is stuck in their "present truth of denial"........they can't go back to their propped-up past ptooie and they can't seem to advance forward into their fleeting future. The days of cult-dom have been bludgeoned by the internet.
Life outside the walls of twi is REALLY, REALLY GOOD.
I do know that we were among a group of people who left the way of the nineties due to extreme pressure from leadership. We had NOT examined any other doctrines, we didn't even know about GSC until sometime(6 months?) after we left. We did think we left the one true household of God because we just weren't able to handle the 'godly' lifestyle. Doctrine was (for us) a mishmash of crap with no answers.We know others in the nineties who left under the same type of circumstances, not because they had a better doctrine to grab onto, but because they couldn't keep up with the hoops. I don't think it was all that uncommon in TWI 2.
Oh--mishmash of crap--I was referring to the present Spewth doctrine of the nineties, not allTWi doctrine for all time.
Present Spewth--"Obey your leadership in the Word and you will walk over the bridge to the Promised Land of the Prevailing Word and your life won't be crap."
Of course, the hitch was, obeying your leadership in the Word turned your life into crap. Which pi$$ed them off. So it had to be YOUR fault, not theirs.
I left mostly for reasons of spiritual abuse that is evidence from much of the leadership, and also how legalistic it and most of the good people in it became. Just the whole mindset everyone has. Refusal to question and analyze any thing, especially if it is from a source outside the Way. I still talk to innies who just can't even CONSIDER that the allegations against the Way could be POSSIBLE, let alone true.
And whether you believe any of the doctrine or not, it's still not a healthy atmosphere to be in. I'm still rethinking many things I was tought, and making up my own mind about it. Some of it I think they are right on, others not so much. But even if TWI's doctrine was 100% right, they still are spiritually abusive in their running of it.
Oh and the whole "we're a kinder, gentler ministry"... that may be true. But now they're just anemic and as dmiller would say "B-O-R-I-N-G."
You know what's cool, I have thought about a lot of this crap in quite a few days, whereas a couple weeks ago I was on here CONstantly. Yay for me!
There are many good choices here. I now see that The Way unjustly criticized other denomination because they were simply jealous of the competition. They invented rubbish about having the accuracy of the word to set themselves apart. The fact is they have no more accuracy of the word than other denominations. And does it do anyone any good to split hairs over every jot & tittle of manuscripts of which there are no originals and in which can be interpreted in a variety of ways?
NO!
I am more interested in seeing what fruit is being produced and how others are being helped in an organization rather than whether they feel they have a corner on truth.
Honestly, The Way seems completely dead. That explains the extreme boredom that permeates the organization. Dead bodies are very boring aren't they? And they stink after a while. I guess some people are attracted to death. Yechhhh!
Harve was made area/limb leader for Ohio and proably for his callous letter to John Paul about his mother andher condition which caused a lot of furror publicly.
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moony3424
Don't forget another Tampa church, Without Walls with a membership of 15,000. Now what does this way about the Tampa Bay area compared to TWI?
Without Walls
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WordWolf
After the last big meeting that they scoured the area for in an attempt to look like they had more members,
my personal guesstimate is that twi has currently approximately 2000 adults,
but the ranks have been whittled down to the most extreme kool-aid drinkers,
the people that make even the GSC blue-pills ("things were perfect once and could be again!")
wince and say "you're out of touch!"
===
There's really no point for twi to even TRY to reach out.
They have no SUBSTANCE to offer people.
Little old "christen-dumb" has outpaced them and offers things that outpaced twi at its APEX.
twi will never offer enough to equal the other Christians now,
let alone distinguish themselves.
The only unique things they have to offer is micro-management,
a mandatory tithe, and a straitjacket for your personality.
Who would join for that?
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mstar1
I don't know if it is a pride thing so much as an attitude of openness, honesty and accountability that most churches carry, three things that were never in the TWI corporate vocabulary.
True enough, It is a good indicater that the organization is incredibly sick and in need of attention, but like most things TWI it is swept under the carpet, undealt with, and denied as the death spiral continues on.
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excathedra
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Ham
"Numbers, not quality".. cripe, that's the biggest excuse, and probably one of the oldest at that, for failure in the world..
Right. If they could just get one real "celebrity" or somebody with some real money.. that'd fix EVERYTHING. Ha.
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dmiller
They're
shrinking
shrinking
shrinking
:lol:
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moony3424
I guess Dorothy poured water on their fire. :D
(I apoligize to anybody connected to The Wizard)
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GrouchoMarxJr
...Of course, even if they had only 5 or 6 members left, they would continue to plan BOD "meetings" in the Bahamas or Cancun...living off of the money that you and I supplied them with 20 years ago. They gave up any serious goals for outreach when Martindale announced years ago that the word had gone over the world...what a joke.
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Second James
Hey you guys......HOW CAN YOU COMPARE TWI TO THESE CHURCHES..HUH??? After all they're definitely not a church right? They made that very very clear during my dozen years trekking to Ohio....& IF they ever Became a church..oh God forbid that would/could ever happen. & yet they referrred to themselves as a "church in the home"..remember that one?? Very confusing..I mean..which is it?? OR "was it"???
Like a bad trick or treat...scary but obvious..
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jetc57
It was in TWI that I learned the real meaning of the word "Church", isn't it merely the 'body of believers'. Even when two or more are gathered in HIS name, they can be called a 'church'?
It helped confirm for me that one doesn't need to 'worship God in a building'.
As to the reduction in membership, I think the biggest reduction occurred in the 80s sometime?
They lost a great deal of people and FUNDS.... yet somehow they are hanging in there....
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Oakspear
...and they still sell and promote The Rise & Expansion of the Christian Church in the First Century by Martindale, which discusses and promotes numerical expansion.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Eek! Excathedra, is that your photo? It looked like Rosie from TWI, or was that your halloween mask?hehehe!
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skyrider
igotout,
Yeah.......twi can NO LONGER hide behind a facade of "prominant importance."
I pulled out my clergy file the other day......and its AMAZING to see how few are still supportive of the twi propaganda. So many exited their doors in the 80s......dozens who exited before veepee's death and the onslaught of the lcm regime. I firmly believe that lcm accelerated the exiting process.....BUT THIS EXODUS WOULD HAVE HAPPENED IN SPITE OF LCM'S BLUNDERS.
In a word.....twi SUCKS. As a bureaucratic behemoth, it sucks the time, resources, relationships, ad infinitum from its followers.......and consequently, through the process of living life one awakens to the reality of it all. Twi takes and takes........and takes some more. Twi, at its corporate headquarters, is an abyss of arrogance and idolatry.
Twi's rhetoric is falling on DEAF EARS.......even the long-standing innies are awakened to the hypocrisy as the field reporting is so dismal. Very few results......very few want this cultish climate moving into their lives and consuming them. It sure ain't the early 70s any more!!!
Twi is stuck in their "present truth of denial"........they can't go back to their propped-up past ptooie and they can't seem to advance forward into their fleeting future. The days of cult-dom have been bludgeoned by the internet.
Life outside the walls of twi is REALLY, REALLY GOOD.
skyrider
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karateka
Hmmmm...I'm curious.
what do you think the percentage is of people who got out of the way for doctrinal differences versus social hypocrisy?
I hear of more leaving because they disagree with the heirarchy set-up of TWI but hold onto the doctrines taught by such.
Me - I left because I thought the doctrines were seive-like in nature - full of holes. :blink:
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Bramble
I don't know about percentages...
I do know that we were among a group of people who left the way of the nineties due to extreme pressure from leadership. We had NOT examined any other doctrines, we didn't even know about GSC until sometime(6 months?) after we left. We did think we left the one true household of God because we just weren't able to handle the 'godly' lifestyle. Doctrine was (for us) a mishmash of crap with no answers.We know others in the nineties who left under the same type of circumstances, not because they had a better doctrine to grab onto, but because they couldn't keep up with the hoops. I don't think it was all that uncommon in TWI 2.
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Outin88.
Whoa, Thats quite a difference from what VPW taught that the word fits like a hand in a glove etc. in TWI 1.
Many of Mr. Wierwille's doctrines were erroneous, but at least for me, for a time, made some sense.
Jesus said that Truth will set you free. He also said God's Word is truth!
Therefore wrong doctrine puts people in bondage, at least to some degree! And that leads to wrong practice.
I wouldn't have lasted an hour in TWI 2 if the doctrines were a "a mishmash of crap with no answers".
I'm glad your out of that insanity Bramble.
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GeorgeStGeorge
Karateka, check out the "Why Did You Leave?" thread. (Note that not every poster actually voted, so you might like to read the responses, as well.)
George
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Bramble
Oh--mishmash of crap--I was referring to the present Spewth doctrine of the nineties, not allTWi doctrine for all time.
Present Spewth--"Obey your leadership in the Word and you will walk over the bridge to the Promised Land of the Prevailing Word and your life won't be crap."
Of course, the hitch was, obeying your leadership in the Word turned your life into crap. Which pi$$ed them off. So it had to be YOUR fault, not theirs.
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Nato
Hi Karateka!
I left mostly for reasons of spiritual abuse that is evidence from much of the leadership, and also how legalistic it and most of the good people in it became. Just the whole mindset everyone has. Refusal to question and analyze any thing, especially if it is from a source outside the Way. I still talk to innies who just can't even CONSIDER that the allegations against the Way could be POSSIBLE, let alone true.
And whether you believe any of the doctrine or not, it's still not a healthy atmosphere to be in. I'm still rethinking many things I was tought, and making up my own mind about it. Some of it I think they are right on, others not so much. But even if TWI's doctrine was 100% right, they still are spiritually abusive in their running of it.
Oh and the whole "we're a kinder, gentler ministry"... that may be true. But now they're just anemic and as dmiller would say "B-O-R-I-N-G."
You know what's cool, I have thought about a lot of this crap in quite a few days, whereas a couple weeks ago I was on here CONstantly. Yay for me!
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Stayed Too Long
In looking at TWI website where did Harve Platig go? There are now 3 Vice Presidents. What have I missed ALONG THE WAY?
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coupcake
John,
When my daughter returns to Tampa this spring may I write you for more information on your church? Mydaughter needs one in the area.
Coup
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igotout
Sure Copucake,
There are many good choices here. I now see that The Way unjustly criticized other denomination because they were simply jealous of the competition. They invented rubbish about having the accuracy of the word to set themselves apart. The fact is they have no more accuracy of the word than other denominations. And does it do anyone any good to split hairs over every jot & tittle of manuscripts of which there are no originals and in which can be interpreted in a variety of ways?
NO!
I am more interested in seeing what fruit is being produced and how others are being helped in an organization rather than whether they feel they have a corner on truth.
Honestly, The Way seems completely dead. That explains the extreme boredom that permeates the organization. Dead bodies are very boring aren't they? And they stink after a while. I guess some people are attracted to death. Yechhhh!
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penguin
Most are not staying around any longer because......
TWI is all about control
control
control
Too bad most don't see it until they leave, or only see an inkling of it.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Harve was made area/limb leader for Ohio and proably for his callous letter to John Paul about his mother andher condition which caused a lot of furror publicly.
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