I've attended several ranging from *full gospel* to Jewish Messianic. Didn't care for the doctrine taught, but I went there more for the fellowship than I did for the teaching -- though it would have been nice to hear a good teaching. ;)
The Messianic outfit taught me a lot about OT, but were lacking (imo) in the NT. I believe in administrations, and they did not.
I did like a Baptist church I went to once. They taught well enough, but it had to sift through my *way-brain* (if you know what I mean). I saw a few folks there that used to be in twig with me too, so others of our *ilk* found it interesting enough to go to too.
I don't go to church (these days), though if I found one that I liked (for the fellowship aspect), I would make a better effort in trying to attend, and be a part of the *church scene* again.
Yes I have been to a couple of churches since leaving. One I have really liked I drove past repeatedly over many years until I felt "led" to go there. It is non-denominational. I like it because of the worship service and practical teaching. Not everything lines up to what twi taught, but I expected that. I glean what I can --They have a love for God and love of God towards people. They believe in what we call manifestations, and keep them orderly.
The other one I went to was cold and the worship service was like watching a professional concert. No one in the church sang along with the band--they just sat and watched. Not the one for me! Some posters here go to Unitarian or Methodist. I haven't tried either of those yet.
When the pastor says something I dont agree with, I replace the words in my mind to line up with what I know. Some things I havent been sure of, so I looked up in my Bible what they were teaching/doing. Lo and behold-twi was wrong! (lol--sarcasm--hint hint) If you desire to find a church where you can grow I am sure God can lead you in the right direction. It may take a few tries--I would recommend some of the books mentioned here in the forums like Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse so you know what you DON'T want and what warning signs you should look for. This church emphasizes a book called Boundaries by Cloud/Townsend which promotes "safe" relationships.
Have you had problems with the teachings? how have you dealt with it?
I should add that at first, I almost dared them to teach me something! After a while though, I mellowed out and actually got something out of the services. You sure can't get anything out of it if you go in with a *bad attitude*. :D
Penguin -- good point about gleaning what you can. Looking back on it, I guess I did the same with twi in the end there!
I have been attending church and bible studies of all flavors pretty steadily since leaving TWI in the late 80's. At first I did have trouble with teachings, until I finally realized that much of Way Doctrine is flat out wrong. It has taken me years to finally sort it all out, and truthfully I'm still working on it.
Currently my family and I attend a Methodist church which we've been involved with for the past 5 years or so. Is it perfect? Absolutely not. But no group of humans ever is, Chrisitan, pagan, or otherwise. B) I love the church for the pillar of strength and support it is to the families of our community, and it's eagerness to reach out those in need. And the most important teaching that is alive and well in our church is that Jesus Christ is Lord, and there is always hope in him.
Have any of you been to church after leaving the way?
It took me almost 10 years after getting 'out' in order to feel comfortable in a traditional church at all.
Have you had problems with the teachings?
As long as I continued to subscribe to TWI teachings, I had big time trouble. I had a hard time not standing up in the middle of the church service and screaming "idolatry!!!!!!!" It was so offensive to me that I couldn't even stand to pray with people who weren't like I was...a former TWIt who was smarter than the mindless robots who stayed in...much less going to a worship service...after all, didn't these idiots in church realize that you worshipped God by SITing? How stupid could they be??? Hypocrites...pharisees...
how have you dealt with it?
I read the words of Gameliel in Acts
"5:38 And now I say to you, keep away from these men and let them alone; for if this plan or this work is of men, it will come to nothing; 39 but if it is of God, you cannot overthrow it--lest you even be found to fight against God."
I realized eventually that maybe traditional Christianity, which has flourished in 2,000 years, may have something to it. All groups who dissented from traditional Christianity eventually faded away. Some with help, some on their own.
But I still didn't feel comfortable in a church. What I did, though, this time was that I did some of my own research on the subjects that truly separate TWI from traditional groups. But I did so, unlike when I was in TWI, not from the perspective of trying to prove these groups wrong...I did so through trying to see if their beliefs were justified...if they were scriptural.
And I found that their beliefs could just as easily be justified, if not more easily justified, than the beliefs that we embraced in TWI. I might have one or two verses that needed to be studied and understood...not hardly the dozens and dozens of verses that had to be dealt with, in one case (Matt 28:19), with an obvious denial of scripture (I dare anybody to show me a critical greek text that doesn't have the trinitarian formula in that verse...even Lamsa, even TWI's aramaic interlinear, has those words written in it)
The two subjects I had to deal with? JCNG and ADAN.
I would suggest to anybody who longs to go to church but doesn't feel comfortable because of the doctrinal issues to look at it from the church's point of view. Is their belief system logical and systematic? Not to look if you can poke holes in it, because chances are, you can. But can they support their doctrine using a logical system (and that logical system may not be a system of ultradispensationalism, like TWI's system was built upon...but whatever the system, it should be consistent within itself). Can they, using a sensible methodology, base their doctrine on scripture? Or are they like Jehovah's Witnesses and depend upon their own (mis)translation of the Bible to back up their claims? Do they, for the most part, walk the walk as well as talk the talk? (There will be exceptions that can be found anyplace...any group of any size will have scumbags along with the good folks) And, finally, is the norm of people (who fully understand and practice the doctrine of their church in their daily life) within that church one that displays the grace of God and demonstrates the fruit of the spirit or is the norm one of condemnation/judgement, arrogance/insecurity, etc.?
I dont want to sound rude but could only the ones who have been to church since reply only because I want a serious answer.Thanks
If you can find that, then you'll probably be able to find a group you can live with.
Mark -- over all, that was a great reply. You said a lot (and better conveyed) than what I tried to say. You made the point (quite well) about not subscribing to twi teachings, vs. those heard in churches.
I realized eventually that maybe traditional Christianity, which has flourished in 2,000 years, may have something to it. All groups who dissented from traditional Christianity eventually faded away. Some with help, some on their own.
Question -- did *Traditional Christianity* flourish over the others, simply because it was the biggest thing going, and managed to last over the years?? I'm not baiting you here, this is an honest question -- because I look at what you said, and equate that to Jesus vs. the Pharisees of His era -- who happened to be the *established, traditional* religion at that time.
Personally -- I have no problem with a *faction* rocking the theological boat (wasn't Jesus considered heretical in His time?), while I do have a problem with a *faction* claiming to be both the boat, and the waves that float it as well.
FYI -- I was raised Catholic. It was a Catholic Charismatic group that taught me how to SIT, and it was the Catholic group I left for a Jesus Freak group, when I got involved with twi.
I can see both sides of the equation here.
Am wondering if you can see the *other side* as well??
Mark -- over all, that was a great reply. You said a lot (and better conveyed) than what I tried to say. You made the point (quite well) about not subscribing to twi teachings, vs. those heard in churches.
Question -- did *Traditional Christianity* flourish over the others, simply because it was the biggest thing going, and managed to last over the years?? I'm not baiting you here, this is an honest question -- because I look at what you said, and equate that to Jesus vs. the Pharisees of His era -- who happened to be the *established, traditional* religion at that time.
Personally -- I have no problem with a *faction* rocking the theological boat (wasn't Jesus considered heretical in His time?), while I do have a problem with a *faction* claiming to be both the boat, and the waves that float it as well.
FYI -- I was raised Catholic. It was a Catholic Charismatic group that taught me how to SIT, and it was the Catholic group I left for a Jesus Freak group, when I got involved with twi.
I can see both sides of the equation here.
Am wondering if you can see the *other side* as well??
David
David,
First, let me emphatically state that I was not making a paid commerical announcement for the Catholic Church. I was merely describing my processs that I used...to reconcile within my own head how I could go back to pretty much ANY church...and that process was basically doing a check on my own beliefs.
(Now here is the paid commercial announcement: once I was able to get beyond the JCNG and ADAN hurdles laid before my from my participation in TWI, which, if one is going to participate actively in almost any major denomination, one will have to do, then I found that I had absolutely no problems with any of the doctrines that make the Catholic church unique: apostolic succession, transubstantiation, the communion of saints, etc. But this goes beyond what I was originally trying to say in my first post on this thread)
As with you, I don't have a problem with a group or a person "rocking the boat," either. Take, for example, Luther. What originally wound him up was the push for donations to construct St. Peter's Basillica in the Vatican. This got translated into the sale of indulgences. A horrible practice and a complete perversion of doctrine. He very rightly railed against it. Frankly, had he not done what he did, the reforms put into place by the Council of Trent would never have happened (one of the chief reforms being the supression of that evil practice).
The way I see "traditional Christianity" flourishing was not because it was the biggest thing going, but rather the credit goes to the Holy Spirit. Early Christianity was hardly the biggest thing going. Christianity had everything going against it in the early years...from the "orthodox" religion (Judaism) in the area forcibly trying to suppress it to having the might of the Roman Empire trying actively to wipe it out in organized purges at various times until the Edict of Milan (which officially established a tolerance for it...not, as some believe, established it as the State religion). How many thousands of Christians voluntarily went to their deaths rather than renounce their beliefs? Yet, Christianity flourished.
Look at it in comparison to TWI. How many people were put to death by the State for their beliefs? How many people were jailed? How many people were denied housing because of their beliefs? What organized, State-run persecution was there? Yet, can anybody realistically say that TWI has, in retrospect, flourished?
Back in the mid-late '90s when I started to come to a realization that I need to come back to some form of organized fellowship (and I wasn't stuck on Catholicism either...the process was originally something that applied to trying to locate some Protestant group that I could live with) and put myself through the process that I described in my earlier post, that's the comparison I drew.
As far as seeing the "other side of the boat," again, I didn't give the suggestion I made in order to recruit for the Catholic Church. I'll keep my parochialism restricted to the "doctrinal" forum. But it is a matter of trying to take an honest look at one's beliefs and taking an honest look at traditional Christianity's (Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, Lutheran, Methodist, Baptist, etc., etc.) views on those subjects that completely separate TWI from "traditional"/ "orthodox" Christianity.
So, for me, one side of the boat is staying with the TWI beliefs...been there, done that. The other side of the boat is to give an honest, fresh look at what Wierwille taught and maybe re-evaluating our positions on it.
Hi Dawna..many who have left twi and still want to hold onto majority of truths have found wonderful fellowship with Rev.s'John Shroyer and Wayne Clapp of 'Christian Family Fellowship' <www.cffm.org>
I understand they have as many people there now as twi (if not more) ! All the best with your quest !!
Have any of you been to church after leaving the way?
Yes
Have you had problems with the teachings?
Yes
How have you dealt with it?
Leave through the same door I came in from. This is America there will always be churches that teach different doctrines. Their right as well it is ours to not attend if we so choose. I'd say go where you are happy if your not don't go back, which is why I stay away from churches. That does not mean that there are not many fine people at churches by the way but there are many fine people at the mall too. I go there for truthful Bibllical learning so if they do not offer that then I am not interested in their social groups.
Over the past 9 years since being booted fromTWI I have attended a variety of churches. At first I did find myself comparing their teachings to what we were taught in PFAL. This bothered me to some extent but got over it. Then I realized they were still the same empty places I had left years before ever hearing about TWI. Now I have no desire to attend any of them and feel much better about myself. If there really is a God who made us and who we will answer to some day, he sure fell short in the department of letting us know how to live this life. Even in Western society which predominately accepts the bible as God's words, there are thousands of versions of how to interpret it.
Apparently we all have to guess which one will work for us. Can you imagine applying this same logic to learn how electricty works?
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dmiller
Hiya dawna --- welcome to GreaseSpot. B)
I've attended several ranging from *full gospel* to Jewish Messianic. Didn't care for the doctrine taught, but I went there more for the fellowship than I did for the teaching -- though it would have been nice to hear a good teaching. ;)
The Messianic outfit taught me a lot about OT, but were lacking (imo) in the NT. I believe in administrations, and they did not.
I did like a Baptist church I went to once. They taught well enough, but it had to sift through my *way-brain* (if you know what I mean). I saw a few folks there that used to be in twig with me too, so others of our *ilk* found it interesting enough to go to too.
I don't go to church (these days), though if I found one that I liked (for the fellowship aspect), I would make a better effort in trying to attend, and be a part of the *church scene* again.
David
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penguin
Hey Dawna,
Yes I have been to a couple of churches since leaving. One I have really liked I drove past repeatedly over many years until I felt "led" to go there. It is non-denominational. I like it because of the worship service and practical teaching. Not everything lines up to what twi taught, but I expected that. I glean what I can --They have a love for God and love of God towards people. They believe in what we call manifestations, and keep them orderly.
The other one I went to was cold and the worship service was like watching a professional concert. No one in the church sang along with the band--they just sat and watched. Not the one for me! Some posters here go to Unitarian or Methodist. I haven't tried either of those yet.
When the pastor says something I dont agree with, I replace the words in my mind to line up with what I know. Some things I havent been sure of, so I looked up in my Bible what they were teaching/doing. Lo and behold-twi was wrong! (lol--sarcasm--hint hint) If you desire to find a church where you can grow I am sure God can lead you in the right direction. It may take a few tries--I would recommend some of the books mentioned here in the forums like Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse so you know what you DON'T want and what warning signs you should look for. This church emphasizes a book called Boundaries by Cloud/Townsend which promotes "safe" relationships.
Enjoy your journey!
Penguin
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dmiller
I should add that at first, I almost dared them to teach me something! After a while though, I mellowed out and actually got something out of the services. You sure can't get anything out of it if you go in with a *bad attitude*. :D
Penguin -- good point about gleaning what you can. Looking back on it, I guess I did the same with twi in the end there!
David
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ex10
Hi Dawna
I have been attending church and bible studies of all flavors pretty steadily since leaving TWI in the late 80's. At first I did have trouble with teachings, until I finally realized that much of Way Doctrine is flat out wrong. It has taken me years to finally sort it all out, and truthfully I'm still working on it.
Currently my family and I attend a Methodist church which we've been involved with for the past 5 years or so. Is it perfect? Absolutely not. But no group of humans ever is, Chrisitan, pagan, or otherwise. B) I love the church for the pillar of strength and support it is to the families of our community, and it's eagerness to reach out those in need. And the most important teaching that is alive and well in our church is that Jesus Christ is Lord, and there is always hope in him.
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ex10
PS
and I guess this forum isn't "read only" after all? :unsure:
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markomalley
It took me almost 10 years after getting 'out' in order to feel comfortable in a traditional church at all.
As long as I continued to subscribe to TWI teachings, I had big time trouble. I had a hard time not standing up in the middle of the church service and screaming "idolatry!!!!!!!" It was so offensive to me that I couldn't even stand to pray with people who weren't like I was...a former TWIt who was smarter than the mindless robots who stayed in...much less going to a worship service...after all, didn't these idiots in church realize that you worshipped God by SITing? How stupid could they be??? Hypocrites...pharisees...I read the words of Gameliel in Acts"5:38 And now I say to you, keep away from these men and let them alone; for if this plan or this work is of men, it will come to nothing; 39 but if it is of God, you cannot overthrow it--lest you even be found to fight against God."
I realized eventually that maybe traditional Christianity, which has flourished in 2,000 years, may have something to it. All groups who dissented from traditional Christianity eventually faded away. Some with help, some on their own.
But I still didn't feel comfortable in a church. What I did, though, this time was that I did some of my own research on the subjects that truly separate TWI from traditional groups. But I did so, unlike when I was in TWI, not from the perspective of trying to prove these groups wrong...I did so through trying to see if their beliefs were justified...if they were scriptural.
And I found that their beliefs could just as easily be justified, if not more easily justified, than the beliefs that we embraced in TWI. I might have one or two verses that needed to be studied and understood...not hardly the dozens and dozens of verses that had to be dealt with, in one case (Matt 28:19), with an obvious denial of scripture (I dare anybody to show me a critical greek text that doesn't have the trinitarian formula in that verse...even Lamsa, even TWI's aramaic interlinear, has those words written in it)
The two subjects I had to deal with? JCNG and ADAN.
I would suggest to anybody who longs to go to church but doesn't feel comfortable because of the doctrinal issues to look at it from the church's point of view. Is their belief system logical and systematic? Not to look if you can poke holes in it, because chances are, you can. But can they support their doctrine using a logical system (and that logical system may not be a system of ultradispensationalism, like TWI's system was built upon...but whatever the system, it should be consistent within itself). Can they, using a sensible methodology, base their doctrine on scripture? Or are they like Jehovah's Witnesses and depend upon their own (mis)translation of the Bible to back up their claims? Do they, for the most part, walk the walk as well as talk the talk? (There will be exceptions that can be found anyplace...any group of any size will have scumbags along with the good folks) And, finally, is the norm of people (who fully understand and practice the doctrine of their church in their daily life) within that church one that displays the grace of God and demonstrates the fruit of the spirit or is the norm one of condemnation/judgement, arrogance/insecurity, etc.?
If you can find that, then you'll probably be able to find a group you can live with.
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dmiller
Mark -- over all, that was a great reply. You said a lot (and better conveyed) than what I tried to say. You made the point (quite well) about not subscribing to twi teachings, vs. those heard in churches.
Question -- did *Traditional Christianity* flourish over the others, simply because it was the biggest thing going, and managed to last over the years?? I'm not baiting you here, this is an honest question -- because I look at what you said, and equate that to Jesus vs. the Pharisees of His era -- who happened to be the *established, traditional* religion at that time.
Personally -- I have no problem with a *faction* rocking the theological boat (wasn't Jesus considered heretical in His time?), while I do have a problem with a *faction* claiming to be both the boat, and the waves that float it as well.
FYI -- I was raised Catholic. It was a Catholic Charismatic group that taught me how to SIT, and it was the Catholic group I left for a Jesus Freak group, when I got involved with twi.
I can see both sides of the equation here.
Am wondering if you can see the *other side* as well??
David
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markomalley
David,
First, let me emphatically state that I was not making a paid commerical announcement for the Catholic Church. I was merely describing my processs that I used...to reconcile within my own head how I could go back to pretty much ANY church...and that process was basically doing a check on my own beliefs.
(Now here is the paid commercial announcement: once I was able to get beyond the JCNG and ADAN hurdles laid before my from my participation in TWI, which, if one is going to participate actively in almost any major denomination, one will have to do, then I found that I had absolutely no problems with any of the doctrines that make the Catholic church unique: apostolic succession, transubstantiation, the communion of saints, etc. But this goes beyond what I was originally trying to say in my first post on this thread)
As with you, I don't have a problem with a group or a person "rocking the boat," either. Take, for example, Luther. What originally wound him up was the push for donations to construct St. Peter's Basillica in the Vatican. This got translated into the sale of indulgences. A horrible practice and a complete perversion of doctrine. He very rightly railed against it. Frankly, had he not done what he did, the reforms put into place by the Council of Trent would never have happened (one of the chief reforms being the supression of that evil practice).
The way I see "traditional Christianity" flourishing was not because it was the biggest thing going, but rather the credit goes to the Holy Spirit. Early Christianity was hardly the biggest thing going. Christianity had everything going against it in the early years...from the "orthodox" religion (Judaism) in the area forcibly trying to suppress it to having the might of the Roman Empire trying actively to wipe it out in organized purges at various times until the Edict of Milan (which officially established a tolerance for it...not, as some believe, established it as the State religion). How many thousands of Christians voluntarily went to their deaths rather than renounce their beliefs? Yet, Christianity flourished.
Look at it in comparison to TWI. How many people were put to death by the State for their beliefs? How many people were jailed? How many people were denied housing because of their beliefs? What organized, State-run persecution was there? Yet, can anybody realistically say that TWI has, in retrospect, flourished?
Back in the mid-late '90s when I started to come to a realization that I need to come back to some form of organized fellowship (and I wasn't stuck on Catholicism either...the process was originally something that applied to trying to locate some Protestant group that I could live with) and put myself through the process that I described in my earlier post, that's the comparison I drew.
As far as seeing the "other side of the boat," again, I didn't give the suggestion I made in order to recruit for the Catholic Church. I'll keep my parochialism restricted to the "doctrinal" forum. But it is a matter of trying to take an honest look at one's beliefs and taking an honest look at traditional Christianity's (Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, Lutheran, Methodist, Baptist, etc., etc.) views on those subjects that completely separate TWI from "traditional"/ "orthodox" Christianity.
So, for me, one side of the boat is staying with the TWI beliefs...been there, done that. The other side of the boat is to give an honest, fresh look at what Wierwille taught and maybe re-evaluating our positions on it.
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Allan
Hi Dawna..many who have left twi and still want to hold onto majority of truths have found wonderful fellowship with Rev.s'John Shroyer and Wayne Clapp of 'Christian Family Fellowship' <www.cffm.org>
I understand they have as many people there now as twi (if not more) ! All the best with your quest !!
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WhiteDove
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def59
I was raised in the Church of Christ, then I went secular, then Twi for 10 years then secular and now in churches.
I have moved from town to town in my career and found good, conservative (gasp!) Bible-believing churches whereever I went.
God has met me at each stop and challenged me to come to terms with what I really believed.
At my first church (Free Methodist) I had to come to terms that Jesus was God after all. It wasn't easy.
I got water baptized and I became a Sunday School teacher. Got my first taste of the Calvinist-Arminian debate.
At my second churc (FMC) I had to confront the idea that sin was a dominant force in my life. Through
counseling and prayer I was delivered of many oppressing forces in my life.
At my third church, a so-called megachurch (Wesleyan) I learned about the real Jesus and how to apply
logic to my beliefs.
At my latest church, (United Brethren) I've come to learn that people can be imperfect and still be godly.
It's been 15 years and God is still not done with me yet.
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Oakspear
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Stayed Too Long
Over the past 9 years since being booted fromTWI I have attended a variety of churches. At first I did find myself comparing their teachings to what we were taught in PFAL. This bothered me to some extent but got over it. Then I realized they were still the same empty places I had left years before ever hearing about TWI. Now I have no desire to attend any of them and feel much better about myself. If there really is a God who made us and who we will answer to some day, he sure fell short in the department of letting us know how to live this life. Even in Western society which predominately accepts the bible as God's words, there are thousands of versions of how to interpret it.
Apparently we all have to guess which one will work for us. Can you imagine applying this same logic to learn how electricty works?
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