Hi Jerry..I wasn't 'implying' anything nor 'stating' anything except to say this is how I go about reading and living the Word. To me, someone who spends their life trying to figure out exactly what salvation is or how it happens (when for example we have romans 10:9,10) and does not 'appropriate it' is very foolish.
Well just to clarify something for you; I have appropriated it. What I'm trying to do is arrive at a consistent Biblical explanation for what it is I've received. You know there are other perspectives regarding the Bible beyond VP's simplistic teachings. Brilliant, decent people read the same Bible and come to opposing interpretations of what eternal life is and how its' received. Rather than picking sides and ridiculing those who disagree, some of us try to get a comprehensive understanding of the various aspects of the argument.
To me Jerry, if Romans 10: 9,10 is NOT the answer, then there is NO answer. Again..this is how (I) read and live the Word, Bless ya !
I can hardly believe you would say something so stupid and narrowminded. Sounds like a faint echo of Weirwille's "It's either all God's Word or none of it!" Says WHO? Such simplistic, dogmatic, and idiotic approaches to something as complex and important as Scripture serve no purpose but to embarrass you and discourage honest discourse.
Did you never read in Joshua 1:8, Psalms, and I Timothy 4:15 that we're supposed to meditate on the scriptures? II Timothy 2: 7 says "Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things." If it's that simple, what is there to think about? What is there to consider?
Perhaps if you spent some time meditating on these issues or considering the meaning of what's in the Bible, you would grow beyond taking cheap shots at your brethren in Christ.
Sorry Jerry..I just read it for what it says, noting words like ' you' 'confess' 'mouth' believe' 'heart' 'shalt'
'saved' .I find keeping it simple stops me from becoming a 'jack of all trades, master of none' type of Christian.
Hey Evan..if you mean 'mucking up' your doctrinal section by disagreeing with your 'trinitarian', 'water spraying' interpretation of scriptures then.. geeesh, sorry mate !! It's still a discussion forum isn't it ??!!
Point made Allan, as I'm neither trinitarian nor "water-spraying" (whatever that is). Yes, it is discussion, not mucking and trashing. Others discuss. You throw rocks.
Though I've never done this before, if I can figure out how to place you on ignore, regretfully I will do so. I mean no ill will. I simply have no time for you.
Hey Evan..if you mean 'mucking up' your doctrinal section by disagreeing with your 'trinitarian', 'water spraying' interpretation of scriptures then.. geeesh, sorry mate !! It's still a discussion forum isn't it ??!!
"Discussion" generally involves a bit more than stating that what you believe is truth and everyone who disagrees is an idiot.
If you want to get involved in the Doctrinal discussions Allan, do so, but back up what you're saying. The major PFAL supporter on this board believes that PFAL virtually replaces the bible, it would be refreshing to hear the pro-PFAL position discussed rationally.
Part of the challenge of having doctrinal discussions is that not everyone starts from the same premise.
For instance, two people here may start from the premise that "the bible, as originally written, is god-breathed, and therefore without error"
Those two hypothetical people may still disagree on what parts are literal, and what parts are figurative. They may disagree on what language the bible was originally written in, or whose definitions of Greek words they will accept.
All of these disagreements can result in different conclusions, even if the basic premise of an inerrant bible is accepted.
Right Oak. Heck, even if one starts with Wierwillian dogma as a basis and properly applies those "keys to research" conclusions may be wildly different.
1. I dispute the usefulness of those particular keys. F'rinstance, Wierwille's take on administrations is easily debunked.
2. It is my position that the Bible doesn't reveal itself to those who come at it with "keys". Seems somewhat akin to approaching it with a crowbar.
The kind of spiritual knowledge I'm after comes to me when I approach the Bible prayerfully, asking the Lord to reveal to me what he's like me to understand for this particular moment. Spare me the "mathematical accuracy and scientific precision". Brother...
I am a trinitarian. I used to be unitarian, but am I still monotheistic.
To me, Jesus being God made flesh is the ultimate slam dunk by God to make salvation a signed, sealed
delivered proposition.
Jesus came to us to show us the right way to live and how to do it, which is through him. Apart from him we can do nothing. We are his sheep and hear his voice.
So by a perfect man being our sacrifice and suffering the same afflictions and temptations, yet without sin, we can rest in the grace that saved us.
He is the high priest who understands us, and the Lord we can bow down to.
I think Alan, since you are new here, you have no background on what Jerry has written and shared here the last few years.
If you had read his excellent and well thought out article on the on the return (which some will agree with and come won't), you would know exactly where he's coming from on this thread. If you had read his months long discussion of PFAL you would too. But you haven't read them so you are not looking too bright on this thread right now.
Jerry, maybe you can link Alan to some of your writings?
The difference between here and the other sections on this forum, is we respectfully discuss, muse, turn things over, look at different angles, agree or disagree, all without taking potshots and throwing rocks. VP is not worshipped here anymore by too many people. People who are on the Doctrinal forums want to learn and hear what others have learned on their spiritual journeys since they have left TWI. God does still work in people's hearts and the holy spirit still teaches. They were not exclusive to TWI.
You should read Jerry's previous writings before coming in here, derailing the thread, and sounding, quite frankly, behind the curve, because you have no background or context of what Jerry is talking about.
Well Sunesis, thank you for the kind words. Beyond that, i'm not sure what to say. Since this is supposed to be a thread on the trinity, I don't think this is the right place to put a link to the PFAL review or the "False Hope" article. The PFAL review (and Raf's Blue Book articles) are online at my webspace on insight broadband, but I thnk the hope article isn't there; not enough bandwidth.
But, if it will help newcomers get some background on what's been jointly discussed in the extwi community about piffle, I suppose a link would be of some value. There are good posts there by quite a few people: Evan, Rafael, Sunesis, Steve Lortz OC, and others, Let's see if I can find it....Here you go. Ye Olde PFAL Review.
And frankly, I'm not sure about posting much further. I had said last Thursday night that I would start a thread about the eternal life issues, but the more I think about it the less I'm inclined to go down that road. I think I'd rather leave something that big and that critical to the professionals. It goes way beyond VP and "The Class" and I just don't have a good grip on the topic. I'm afraid I'll just muck it up. So for now, I'm going to leave it be.
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Jbarrax
Well just to clarify something for you; I have appropriated it. What I'm trying to do is arrive at a consistent Biblical explanation for what it is I've received. You know there are other perspectives regarding the Bible beyond VP's simplistic teachings. Brilliant, decent people read the same Bible and come to opposing interpretations of what eternal life is and how its' received. Rather than picking sides and ridiculing those who disagree, some of us try to get a comprehensive understanding of the various aspects of the argument.
I can hardly believe you would say something so stupid and narrowminded. Sounds like a faint echo of Weirwille's "It's either all God's Word or none of it!" Says WHO? Such simplistic, dogmatic, and idiotic approaches to something as complex and important as Scripture serve no purpose but to embarrass you and discourage honest discourse.
Did you never read in Joshua 1:8, Psalms, and I Timothy 4:15 that we're supposed to meditate on the scriptures? II Timothy 2: 7 says "Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things." If it's that simple, what is there to think about? What is there to consider?
Perhaps if you spent some time meditating on these issues or considering the meaning of what's in the Bible, you would grow beyond taking cheap shots at your brethren in Christ.
JerryB
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Allan
Sorry Jerry..I just read it for what it says, noting words like ' you' 'confess' 'mouth' believe' 'heart' 'shalt'
'saved' .I find keeping it simple stops me from becoming a 'jack of all trades, master of none' type of Christian.
Hey Evan..if you mean 'mucking up' your doctrinal section by disagreeing with your 'trinitarian', 'water spraying' interpretation of scriptures then.. geeesh, sorry mate !! It's still a discussion forum isn't it ??!!
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TheEvan
Point made Allan, as I'm neither trinitarian nor "water-spraying" (whatever that is). Yes, it is discussion, not mucking and trashing. Others discuss. You throw rocks.
Though I've never done this before, if I can figure out how to place you on ignore, regretfully I will do so. I mean no ill will. I simply have no time for you.
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Oakspear
If you want to get involved in the Doctrinal discussions Allan, do so, but back up what you're saying. The major PFAL supporter on this board believes that PFAL virtually replaces the bible, it would be refreshing to hear the pro-PFAL position discussed rationally.
Part of the challenge of having doctrinal discussions is that not everyone starts from the same premise.
For instance, two people here may start from the premise that "the bible, as originally written, is god-breathed, and therefore without error"
Those two hypothetical people may still disagree on what parts are literal, and what parts are figurative. They may disagree on what language the bible was originally written in, or whose definitions of Greek words they will accept.
All of these disagreements can result in different conclusions, even if the basic premise of an inerrant bible is accepted.
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TheEvan
Right Oak. Heck, even if one starts with Wierwillian dogma as a basis and properly applies those "keys to research" conclusions may be wildly different.
1. I dispute the usefulness of those particular keys. F'rinstance, Wierwille's take on administrations is easily debunked.
2. It is my position that the Bible doesn't reveal itself to those who come at it with "keys". Seems somewhat akin to approaching it with a crowbar.
The kind of spiritual knowledge I'm after comes to me when I approach the Bible prayerfully, asking the Lord to reveal to me what he's like me to understand for this particular moment. Spare me the "mathematical accuracy and scientific precision". Brother...
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def59
Hi Allan
I am a trinitarian. I used to be unitarian, but am I still monotheistic.
To me, Jesus being God made flesh is the ultimate slam dunk by God to make salvation a signed, sealed
delivered proposition.
Jesus came to us to show us the right way to live and how to do it, which is through him. Apart from him we can do nothing. We are his sheep and hear his voice.
So by a perfect man being our sacrifice and suffering the same afflictions and temptations, yet without sin, we can rest in the grace that saved us.
He is the high priest who understands us, and the Lord we can bow down to.
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Sunesis
I think Alan, since you are new here, you have no background on what Jerry has written and shared here the last few years.
If you had read his excellent and well thought out article on the on the return (which some will agree with and come won't), you would know exactly where he's coming from on this thread. If you had read his months long discussion of PFAL you would too. But you haven't read them so you are not looking too bright on this thread right now.
Jerry, maybe you can link Alan to some of your writings?
The difference between here and the other sections on this forum, is we respectfully discuss, muse, turn things over, look at different angles, agree or disagree, all without taking potshots and throwing rocks. VP is not worshipped here anymore by too many people. People who are on the Doctrinal forums want to learn and hear what others have learned on their spiritual journeys since they have left TWI. God does still work in people's hearts and the holy spirit still teaches. They were not exclusive to TWI.
You should read Jerry's previous writings before coming in here, derailing the thread, and sounding, quite frankly, behind the curve, because you have no background or context of what Jerry is talking about.
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Jbarrax
Well Sunesis, thank you for the kind words. Beyond that, i'm not sure what to say. Since this is supposed to be a thread on the trinity, I don't think this is the right place to put a link to the PFAL review or the "False Hope" article. The PFAL review (and Raf's Blue Book articles) are online at my webspace on insight broadband, but I thnk the hope article isn't there; not enough bandwidth.
But, if it will help newcomers get some background on what's been jointly discussed in the extwi community about piffle, I suppose a link would be of some value. There are good posts there by quite a few people: Evan, Rafael, Sunesis, Steve Lortz OC, and others, Let's see if I can find it....Here you go. Ye Olde PFAL Review.
And frankly, I'm not sure about posting much further. I had said last Thursday night that I would start a thread about the eternal life issues, but the more I think about it the less I'm inclined to go down that road. I think I'd rather leave something that big and that critical to the professionals. It goes way beyond VP and "The Class" and I just don't have a good grip on the topic. I'm afraid I'll just muck it up. So for now, I'm going to leave it be.
Peace
JerryB
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