Of you mean one entity with three separate egos NO
There is God -Heavenly Father, By whose decree this world and all on it were created
There is Jesus Christ the Son of God, who under a divine plan was born in Bethlehem of Judea. He grew in Nazareth as the carpenter’s son, within Him the elements of both mortality and immortality received, respectively, from His earthly mother and His Heavenly Father
The Holy Spirit
PFAL did get one thing right in the example of Jesus' baptism
There Jesus the Son rises from the water, while the Voice of GOD the father speaks from Heaven ands the Holy Spirit descends in the form of a dove. Clearly three separate beings.
God the Father is not Jesus the Son nor is he the Holy Spirit
Jesus is not God the Father nor is he the Holy Spirit
The Holy spirit is neither God the Father nor Jesus the Son,
One in holiness, one in purity, one in truth one in purpose yet separate as to identity
We worship God the Father in Jesus Christs name through the power of the Holy Spirit
There is no need to create a mystical world where these three, by some amoeba -like contortions morph into one physical being. The reality is so beautiful in it's simplicity
We believe (I believe) in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, and born of the Father before all ages. (God of God) light of light, true God of true God. Begotten not made, consubstantial to the Father, by whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven. And was incarnate of the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary and was made man; was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, suffered and was buried; and the third day rose again according to the Scriptures. And ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, and shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, of whose Kingdom there shall be no end. And (I believe) in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father (and the Son), who together with the Father and the Son is to be adored and glorified, who spoke by the Prophets. And one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. We confess (I confess) one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for (I look for) the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen.
"For God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten Son ...."
God didn't say I am coming incarnate among you
He said I am sending my son.
For a parent can you imagine, for a split second, sending your child, to be mocked , betrayed, beaten and crucified because of your love for your other children???????
Can you Imagine what it must have taken for Jesus, seated in the heavens, to have said to Our Father--I will go to earth and be be mocked , betrayed, beaten and crucified because of my love for my brothers and sisters????
Can you even for a moment grasp and feel the enormity of such a love???????
To claim that Jesus, was just God in another form denies the enormity of that love and sacrifice. God being perfect he could not have been wounded, unable to die he could not have died, only a human being could have so suffered and died.
Only a love so encompassing, so wanting for all it's children to come home would have been willing to ask for such a sacrifice much less make it available.
Can you imagine the Sadness of GOD at seeing Jesus mocked ??? Can you visualize the Tears GOD shed at the beating of his Son??? Can you Imagine the agony in His heart watching Jesus die--knowing that this was the only way the "bonds of death" could be broken???
To believe that Jesus Christ was just a persona of GOD as opposed to a separate part of the Godhead makes a mockery of such a love and sacrifice, IMO
Please Evan.. God I'm so tired. Do I believe in the 'trinity'...no...but I'll change my mind if someone can show me that I am my earthly daddy..or he is me..?? or..I am him but not in a fatherly sense..?? or... God I'm so tired. Ecclesiastes 12: 12
And the Word was made flesh and dwelled among us..."
"God with us..."
In order to understand this one, you'd have to do a word study on the word "Word". :D
There's the written word, someone's verbal word (I give you my word on that one.. Promise.) Then there are other various interpretations for the Word....
We can't just pluck phrases (Excuse me, I guess we CAN and we HAVE, and folks Continue To.)from scripture and expect to prove a point? A thorough study is necessary tho. God's Word simply is NOT confusing or Contradicting. There has to be some reasonable explaination that can only be found in an indept study to 'rightly-divide' the Word (Bible). Just like the word lord, and other words. There are figures of speech, and other things which were not meant to be taken literally. Our language is easily misunderstood and taken wrong. The written word, depending on how someone reads it, can get misunderstood.
Personally, I think if God wanted us to think Jesus was Him, he would have simply spelled it out, perhaps like this. "Jehovah came to earth in the flesh, placed his seed in Mary and got born on earth as a man, and still somehow left a part of him in heaven so he could resurrect himself.. His earthly name was Jesus Christ., once he died and resurrected himself, THEN he sat back in heaven.
Sounds crazy? Well, that theory would., and to me the Trinity sounds CRAZY..
Some plucked phrases that come to MY own little pea brain are:
God is Spirit --- God is not a Man that He should Lie, Nor the Son of Man. --- Jesus was the Son of Man who came to seek and to save that which was Lost. ---- God is the Alpha and Omega -- Jesus is NOT! ---- Jesus is on the right hand of the Throne of God, Believers will be seated on the Left Hand (would that make US God as well?)....... the list could go on and on...
Still even in those phrases what is the word God in its original language?
God, Lord, Word are all titles, but there are the Given Names for the Almighty Father -- and then those for the Son. The Father's name 'Jehovah', the son's name "Jesus"........ If we are joint-heirs with Jesus Christ, then we collectively are also PART OF THE GOD-HEAD BODILY, in my mind that's the FAMILY OF GOD --- Heirs and joint-heirs. With Jehovah being the Head of the Family Unit., the ultimate authority figure!
---------------------------------------------
And for those who might think because I made the first post that I have ANYTHING to do with CES or personally know ANYONE from there, let me set the record straight. I knew John Lynn, and went to hear him speak in Seattle WA some 7-8 yrs ago, and he has had CES send me things via email ever since! Also, I haven't seen John Lynn's name mentioned or written in any article from CES's Sower Magazine of lately either. I do know John got remarried -- but that's ALL I know.
I'm enjoying the mental stimulation from all the comments, however, and I thank you.
Please Evan.. God I'm so tired. Do I believe in the 'trinity'...no...but I'll change my mind if someone can show me that I am my earthly daddy..or he is me..?? or..I am him but not in a fatherly sense..?? or... God I'm so tired. Ecclesiastes 12: 12
The fact that none of us is the same as our physical father does not, by itself, prove that, Jesus is not God, or that there is no trinity.
1. The concept of the "rightly divided" word is a misnomer. The Bible presents it as a process, not a fisnished product. Insisting on 'there has to be an answer' is, imo, a recipe for trouble. I submit that it is impossible for a human to understand the Godhead. God is bigger, exists in a different realm, 'my thoughts are not your thoughts', etc.
I prefer to understand the extent of scripture that the Holy Spirit has illuminated to my understanding. What He illuminates is His business. What (or Who) I meditate on is my business.
In the end, does one really expect that when one stands before the throne, God will question us on points concerning our personal/religious/corporate points of oft-theoretical, theological doctrines? "I'll take "Trinity" for $400, Alex!" As I understand, we will ultimately be judged on the basis of our actual deeds, not our ideas.
Will He separate Trinitarins and Unitarians as sheep and goats? Absurd.
If one is actually abiding by the words of Jesus - treating others as He would have us treat them - what does it matter if a person thinks Jesus is God, Man, Spirit, Gumby, Platypus, or a combination of them all.
If one is actually abiding by the words of Jesus - treating others as He would have us treat them - what does it matter if a person thinks Jesus is God, Man, Spirit, Gumby, Platypus, or a combination of them all.
The Bible presents it as a process, not a finished product.
I'd be R-E-A-L careful with that one, dude. We wouldn't want to give Smikeol any more ammo or openings to jump on with why PFAL is God's Word Continued, ... would we?
In the end, does one really expect that when one stands before the throne, God will question us on points concerning our personal/religious/corporate points of oft-theoretical, theological doctrines? "I'll take "Trinity" for $400, Alex!" As I understand, we will ultimately be judged on the basis of our actual deeds, not our ideas.
Will He separate Trinitarins and Unitarians as sheep and goats? Absurd.
If one is actually abiding by the words of Jesus - treating others as He would have us treat them - what does it matter if a person thinks Jesus is God, Man, Spirit, Gumby, Platypus, or a combination of them all.
Danny
Very, Very WELL PUT Danny!! Thank you. SO Many Christians get caught up in the Trees and they don't see the Forest! Infact, if the trees aren't all "Evergreen" those of a different kind are often IGNORED or accused of being 'weeds, or thorns' and therefore not worthy to be called Trees in the Forest. (for lack of a better analogy.)
I think we as Believers are encouraged to GUARD THE MYSTERY -- and the MYSTERY is NOT theology or opinion but pure FACT -- Jews and Gentiles can all be Saved and have Life Everlasting. That Death is not the END for us, all because of God and His Son, Christ Jesus. That's the hope that is in us - and that HOPE is what we are to share with others (when they ask us a reason of the hope that is in us.).
All the doctrinal differences are just that! (Differences of Opinion) Certainly we all agree and worship God (one on one). If not - then we are 'natural man'.
In order to understand this one, you'd have to do a word study on the word "Word". :D
There's the written word, someone's verbal word (I give you my word on that one.. Promise.) Then there are other various interpretations for the Word....
We can't just pluck phrases (Excuse me, I guess we CAN and we HAVE, and folks Continue To.)from scripture and expect to prove a point? A thorough study is necessary tho. God's Word simply is NOT confusing or Contradicting.
Baloney. Confusion and contradiction abound in the Scripture, like tares among the wheat, to use Dan's example (on the The Word, the Word thread).
Personally, I think if God wanted us to think Jesus was Him, he would have simply spelled it out, perhaps like this. "Jehovah came to earth in the flesh, placed his seed in Mary and got born on earth as a man, and still somehow left a part of him in heaven so he could resurrect himself.. His earthly name was Jesus Christ., once he died and resurrected himself, THEN he sat back in heaven.
Sounds crazy? Well, that theory would., and to me the Trinity sounds CRAZY..
With this I must agree. If Jesus is God, this is the biggest truth of the Bible and it should say so plainly. Not only does the Bible not plainly say that Jesus is God, what it does plainly say contradicts the triune God notion. And the argument of the former Unitarian that the Tritnity must be true because there are so many nice trinitarians and so many "brilliant" theologians who support it is so intellectually and spiritually bankrupt that it almost defies description. If we are to accept widely held beliefs as inherently true then we must assert that the earth was really flat in Columbus' day, that black men have no souls, and the earth is the center of the universe. All of these statements which we have discovered to be false were once held to be true by the majority of people including the brilliant theologians of the Holy Roman Church.
In my opinion, the Trinitiy survives because most pastors have been schooled in it just as dogmatically as scientists are schooled in Darwinian theory. It becomes an integral part of the individual's mindset and biases and persists beyond the blinders of indoctrination. And, just as it is in scientific and academic circles, if someone dares to peek behind those blinders, the intimidation of the established authorities steps in. Darwin and the Trinity are like the yin and yang of modern life. Two fallacious dogmas ruling opposing camps by indoctrination and intimidation and, in the process, obscuring both the spiritual and scientific paths to truth.
If Mo's posts are representative of the Mormon position regarding the Triune God, it may well be that one of the reasons for the Mormons' rapid global growth (as reported by Newseek) is their presentation of a more logical and Scripturally sound Unitarian doctrine.
I personally do not agree that the Bible is full of Misconceptions, contradictions, etc. I think man's (women included) interpratation of scripture IS, however. I sorta agree that perhaps since the Bible is written by man that it does contain SOME errors, perhaps typos and so forth. I think that overall, that God would not have us Ignorant, and that things are more simple than complex.....
The trinity survives because the church settled on it centuries ago. Unitarianism creeps up as a heresy from time to time because people want to be god themselves.
TWI's doctrines removes Christ from the picture and puts man in His place.
Christ was unique, only-begotten, creator, author of our faith.
He is the Good Shepherd of Psalm 23.
He is the Lamb
He is the Lion of Judah
He is preparing a place for us and inte4ceding on our behalf and knocking on people's hearts - all at the smae time. Even a resurrected man can't be in more than one place at a time.
Maybe you should check the dogmatic tendency of the Unitarian belief and see why you can't change.
I am sure you've heard the arguments before, but for the record.
What is your take on
Jesus spoke of the glory he shared with his Father "before the world began" (John 17:5). He existed before Abraham (John 8:58). On the occasion on which he said this he was nearly stoned for blasphemy. He came from "above", whereas his hearers were from "below". His hearers were "of this world", whereas he was not (John 8:23). He came from heaven (John 3:13; 6:33-35). There are about 20 instances where he claimed to have been sent into this world by his Father (e.g. Luke 10:16; John 4:34; 5:37,38).
He claimed a unique relationship with God his Father
"Jews of Jesus' day would have considered it improper, indeed scandalous, for a person to use such initmate titles of God"
Jesus constantly spoke of God as his Father (about 120 times in John alone). Often he called him "my father" (Matthew 15:13; 18:10; Luke 2:49, etc). In one instance he addressed God by the Aramaic term "abba" (Mark 14:36) which a Jewish child would use of their dad. The Jewish scholar, Professor J. Jeremias, has drawn attention to the rarity of the word "Father" in Jewish literature as applied to God. God is rarely addressed as Father in the Old Testament and there are only a few examples of it in Palestinian Judaism during the early Christian era. The first appearance of "my Father" is in the Middle Ages. The use of the term "abba" as a personal address to God is unknown in Jewish writings. Jews of Jesus' day would have considered it improper, indeed scandalous, for a person to use such intimate titles for God. They realised that, in speaking this way, Jesus was making himself equal with God, and so sought to kill him (John 5:16-18).
Jesus took this claim further. He declared himself to be the only one who knew the Father, and therefore the only one who could reveal him to others (Matthew 11:27; John 6:46). He was one with the Father (John 10:30,38). Everything that belonged to the Father belonged to him (John 16:15; 17:10). The Father would send the Holy Spirit to believers in his name (John 14:26). To have our prayers answered we are to ask the Father in his name (John 14:13; 15:16; 16:23,24). He claimed to be the Son of God - not a son of God (Matthew 11:27; 14:33; 16:16,17; 21:33-41; Luke 22:70; John 1:49,50; 5:19-27; 10:36,38, etc.).
I just don't see what the big deal is. Both are going about to 'splain God. He isn't going to be 'splained to that extent. To a degree, I think both sides are just trying to describe the same thing. Now everybody is fighting over their own little description of the same danged thing.
I just don't see what the big deal is. Both are going about to 'splain God. He isn't going to be 'splained to that extent. To a degree, I think both sides are just trying to describe the same thing. Now everybody is fighting over their own little description of the same danged thing.
But IMHO, I think both the Trinitarian-Unitarian positions are missing the point entirely.
They actually focus little and practically upon the actual nature of God and Jesus Christ,
rather choosing to split hairs over whether Jesus was a human, God, Spirit, angel or
combination of whatever - literally, metaphorically, historically, philosophically,
or whatever.
If Christians are unable to come to a universal agreement with what the nature of God is in such terms (who among us really can?) - wouldn't the next best approach -outside of all this pointless, divisive
speculation, which has Christians attacking even one anothers' salvation - - to be to consider the actual characteristics of the nature of God, Jesus and Holy Spirit?
You know, characteristics of divine nature like love, kindness, benevolence and compassion?
Now those are terms whereof anyone might immediately comprehend the nature of God, Christ and Spirit -
outside of all the tired, counterproductive arguments and speculations over God, Man, spirit, and what their actual relation is to one another.
How about a Christian creed on the nature of God that begins: "We believe that GOD IS LOVE..."? rather than this hurtful crap that leads Christians to questioning one anothers' salvation?
That tells me more about the actual nature of God, Christ and Holy Spirit than anything of practical worth I've seen coming from the Trinitarian /Unitarian camps, so obsessed to be "right" that many seemingly overlook the attributes of God's "nature" which really do matter.
The trinity survives because the church settled on it centuries ago.
Just cuz something has been 'settled' doesn't mean diddly as far as what the facts may or may not be.
Unitarianism creeps up as a heresy from time to time because people want to be god themselves.
Ermmm, you don't know very much about Unitarianism or its history, do ya?
Sometimes you need to look beyond the lines that Orthodoxy draws for you to get more genuine and relevent information, altho' that tactic is often frowned on by many of those who like to 'feel safe' within those lines.
Sometimes (as in often, IMHO) 'heresy' (looking at and thinking a different way) isn't as dangerous as many people think it is.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
7
7
7
7
Popular Days
Oct 24
11
Oct 22
10
Oct 25
8
Oct 29
6
Top Posters In This Topic
TheInvisibleDan 7 posts
TheEvan 7 posts
Jbarrax 7 posts
jetc57 7 posts
Popular Days
Oct 24 2005
11 posts
Oct 22 2005
10 posts
Oct 25 2005
8 posts
Oct 29 2005
6 posts
templelady
If you mean one in purpose YES
Of you mean one entity with three separate egos NO
There is God -Heavenly Father, By whose decree this world and all on it were created
There is Jesus Christ the Son of God, who under a divine plan was born in Bethlehem of Judea. He grew in Nazareth as the carpenter’s son, within Him the elements of both mortality and immortality received, respectively, from His earthly mother and His Heavenly Father
The Holy Spirit
PFAL did get one thing right in the example of Jesus' baptism
There Jesus the Son rises from the water, while the Voice of GOD the father speaks from Heaven ands the Holy Spirit descends in the form of a dove. Clearly three separate beings.
God the Father is not Jesus the Son nor is he the Holy Spirit
Jesus is not God the Father nor is he the Holy Spirit
The Holy spirit is neither God the Father nor Jesus the Son,
One in holiness, one in purity, one in truth one in purpose yet separate as to identity
We worship God the Father in Jesus Christs name through the power of the Holy Spirit
There is no need to create a mystical world where these three, by some amoeba -like contortions morph into one physical being. The reality is so beautiful in it's simplicity
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
So how IS Jeff doing these days?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
markomalley
The Creed of Nicea-Constantinople:
I think that sums it up pretty well.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
templelady
God didn't say I am coming incarnate among you
He said I am sending my son.
For a parent can you imagine, for a split second, sending your child, to be mocked , betrayed, beaten and crucified because of your love for your other children???????
Can you Imagine what it must have taken for Jesus, seated in the heavens, to have said to Our Father--I will go to earth and be be mocked , betrayed, beaten and crucified because of my love for my brothers and sisters????
Can you even for a moment grasp and feel the enormity of such a love???????
To claim that Jesus, was just God in another form denies the enormity of that love and sacrifice. God being perfect he could not have been wounded, unable to die he could not have died, only a human being could have so suffered and died.
Only a love so encompassing, so wanting for all it's children to come home would have been willing to ask for such a sacrifice much less make it available.
Can you imagine the Sadness of GOD at seeing Jesus mocked ??? Can you visualize the Tears GOD shed at the beating of his Son??? Can you Imagine the agony in His heart watching Jesus die--knowing that this was the only way the "bonds of death" could be broken???
To believe that Jesus Christ was just a persona of GOD as opposed to a separate part of the Godhead makes a mockery of such a love and sacrifice, IMO
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheEvan
And the Word was made flesh and dwelled among us..."
"God with us..."
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Allan
Please Evan.. God I'm so tired. Do I believe in the 'trinity'...no...but I'll change my mind if someone can show me that I am my earthly daddy..or he is me..?? or..I am him but not in a fatherly sense..?? or... God I'm so tired. Ecclesiastes 12: 12
Link to comment
Share on other sites
jetc57
In order to understand this one, you'd have to do a word study on the word "Word". :D
There's the written word, someone's verbal word (I give you my word on that one.. Promise.) Then there are other various interpretations for the Word....
We can't just pluck phrases (Excuse me, I guess we CAN and we HAVE, and folks Continue To.)from scripture and expect to prove a point? A thorough study is necessary tho. God's Word simply is NOT confusing or Contradicting. There has to be some reasonable explaination that can only be found in an indept study to 'rightly-divide' the Word (Bible). Just like the word lord, and other words. There are figures of speech, and other things which were not meant to be taken literally. Our language is easily misunderstood and taken wrong. The written word, depending on how someone reads it, can get misunderstood.
Personally, I think if God wanted us to think Jesus was Him, he would have simply spelled it out, perhaps like this. "Jehovah came to earth in the flesh, placed his seed in Mary and got born on earth as a man, and still somehow left a part of him in heaven so he could resurrect himself.. His earthly name was Jesus Christ., once he died and resurrected himself, THEN he sat back in heaven.
Sounds crazy? Well, that theory would., and to me the Trinity sounds CRAZY..
Some plucked phrases that come to MY own little pea brain are:
God is Spirit --- God is not a Man that He should Lie, Nor the Son of Man. --- Jesus was the Son of Man who came to seek and to save that which was Lost. ---- God is the Alpha and Omega -- Jesus is NOT! ---- Jesus is on the right hand of the Throne of God, Believers will be seated on the Left Hand (would that make US God as well?)....... the list could go on and on...
Still even in those phrases what is the word God in its original language?
God, Lord, Word are all titles, but there are the Given Names for the Almighty Father -- and then those for the Son. The Father's name 'Jehovah', the son's name "Jesus"........ If we are joint-heirs with Jesus Christ, then we collectively are also PART OF THE GOD-HEAD BODILY, in my mind that's the FAMILY OF GOD --- Heirs and joint-heirs. With Jehovah being the Head of the Family Unit., the ultimate authority figure!
---------------------------------------------
And for those who might think because I made the first post that I have ANYTHING to do with CES or personally know ANYONE from there, let me set the record straight. I knew John Lynn, and went to hear him speak in Seattle WA some 7-8 yrs ago, and he has had CES send me things via email ever since! Also, I haven't seen John Lynn's name mentioned or written in any article from CES's Sower Magazine of lately either. I do know John got remarried -- but that's ALL I know.
I'm enjoying the mental stimulation from all the comments, however, and I thank you.
Edited by jetc57Link to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheEvan
1. The concept of the "rightly divided" word is a misnomer. The Bible presents it as a process, not a fisnished product. Insisting on 'there has to be an answer' is, imo, a recipe for trouble. I submit that it is impossible for a human to understand the Godhead. God is bigger, exists in a different realm, 'my thoughts are not your thoughts', etc.
I prefer to understand the extent of scripture that the Holy Spirit has illuminated to my understanding. What He illuminates is His business. What (or Who) I meditate on is my business.
Gosh Allan, I'm not a bit tired.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheInvisibleDan
In the end, does one really expect that when one stands before the throne, God will question us on points concerning our personal/religious/corporate points of oft-theoretical, theological doctrines? "I'll take "Trinity" for $400, Alex!" As I understand, we will ultimately be judged on the basis of our actual deeds, not our ideas.
Will He separate Trinitarins and Unitarians as sheep and goats? Absurd.
If one is actually abiding by the words of Jesus - treating others as He would have us treat them - what does it matter if a person thinks Jesus is God, Man, Spirit, Gumby, Platypus, or a combination of them all.
Danny
Link to comment
Share on other sites
templelady
Not sure about Gumby or Platypus B)
But I get your point :D
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GarthP2000
Evan,
I'd be R-E-A-L careful with that one, dude. We wouldn't want to give Smikeol any more ammo or openings to jump on with why PFAL is God's Word Continued, ... would we?
;)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
CM
Allan,
i can relate to that, making and the study and reading
12And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.
time to just live ya know
heck what's that about our thoughts and stature-
Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?
broadening our scope of things helps
i think it happens within the frame work of peace
Link to comment
Share on other sites
jetc57
Very, Very WELL PUT Danny!! Thank you. SO Many Christians get caught up in the Trees and they don't see the Forest! Infact, if the trees aren't all "Evergreen" those of a different kind are often IGNORED or accused of being 'weeds, or thorns' and therefore not worthy to be called Trees in the Forest. (for lack of a better analogy.)
I think we as Believers are encouraged to GUARD THE MYSTERY -- and the MYSTERY is NOT theology or opinion but pure FACT -- Jews and Gentiles can all be Saved and have Life Everlasting. That Death is not the END for us, all because of God and His Son, Christ Jesus. That's the hope that is in us - and that HOPE is what we are to share with others (when they ask us a reason of the hope that is in us.).
All the doctrinal differences are just that! (Differences of Opinion) Certainly we all agree and worship God (one on one). If not - then we are 'natural man'.
Love ya'll
Jeannette
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Jbarrax
Baloney. Confusion and contradiction abound in the Scripture, like tares among the wheat, to use Dan's example (on the The Word, the Word thread).
With this I must agree. If Jesus is God, this is the biggest truth of the Bible and it should say so plainly. Not only does the Bible not plainly say that Jesus is God, what it does plainly say contradicts the triune God notion. And the argument of the former Unitarian that the Tritnity must be true because there are so many nice trinitarians and so many "brilliant" theologians who support it is so intellectually and spiritually bankrupt that it almost defies description. If we are to accept widely held beliefs as inherently true then we must assert that the earth was really flat in Columbus' day, that black men have no souls, and the earth is the center of the universe. All of these statements which we have discovered to be false were once held to be true by the majority of people including the brilliant theologians of the Holy Roman Church.
In my opinion, the Trinitiy survives because most pastors have been schooled in it just as dogmatically as scientists are schooled in Darwinian theory. It becomes an integral part of the individual's mindset and biases and persists beyond the blinders of indoctrination. And, just as it is in scientific and academic circles, if someone dares to peek behind those blinders, the intimidation of the established authorities steps in. Darwin and the Trinity are like the yin and yang of modern life. Two fallacious dogmas ruling opposing camps by indoctrination and intimidation and, in the process, obscuring both the spiritual and scientific paths to truth.
If Mo's posts are representative of the Mormon position regarding the Triune God, it may well be that one of the reasons for the Mormons' rapid global growth (as reported by Newseek) is their presentation of a more logical and Scripturally sound Unitarian doctrine.
Peace
JerryB
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Allan
Amen and amen !! As someone once said "the Bible is 90 % plain common sense."
Link to comment
Share on other sites
jetc57
I personally do not agree that the Bible is full of Misconceptions, contradictions, etc. I think man's (women included) interpratation of scripture IS, however. I sorta agree that perhaps since the Bible is written by man that it does contain SOME errors, perhaps typos and so forth. I think that overall, that God would not have us Ignorant, and that things are more simple than complex.....
Edited by jetc57Link to comment
Share on other sites
def59
JB
The trinity survives because the church settled on it centuries ago. Unitarianism creeps up as a heresy from time to time because people want to be god themselves.
TWI's doctrines removes Christ from the picture and puts man in His place.
Christ was unique, only-begotten, creator, author of our faith.
He is the Good Shepherd of Psalm 23.
He is the Lamb
He is the Lion of Judah
He is preparing a place for us and inte4ceding on our behalf and knocking on people's hearts - all at the smae time. Even a resurrected man can't be in more than one place at a time.
Maybe you should check the dogmatic tendency of the Unitarian belief and see why you can't change.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
def59
OK Jb
I am sure you've heard the arguments before, but for the record.
What is your take on
Jesus spoke of the glory he shared with his Father "before the world began" (John 17:5). He existed before Abraham (John 8:58). On the occasion on which he said this he was nearly stoned for blasphemy. He came from "above", whereas his hearers were from "below". His hearers were "of this world", whereas he was not (John 8:23). He came from heaven (John 3:13; 6:33-35). There are about 20 instances where he claimed to have been sent into this world by his Father (e.g. Luke 10:16; John 4:34; 5:37,38).
He claimed a unique relationship with God his Father
"Jews of Jesus' day would have considered it improper, indeed scandalous, for a person to use such initmate titles of God"
Jesus constantly spoke of God as his Father (about 120 times in John alone). Often he called him "my father" (Matthew 15:13; 18:10; Luke 2:49, etc). In one instance he addressed God by the Aramaic term "abba" (Mark 14:36) which a Jewish child would use of their dad. The Jewish scholar, Professor J. Jeremias, has drawn attention to the rarity of the word "Father" in Jewish literature as applied to God. God is rarely addressed as Father in the Old Testament and there are only a few examples of it in Palestinian Judaism during the early Christian era. The first appearance of "my Father" is in the Middle Ages. The use of the term "abba" as a personal address to God is unknown in Jewish writings. Jews of Jesus' day would have considered it improper, indeed scandalous, for a person to use such intimate titles for God. They realised that, in speaking this way, Jesus was making himself equal with God, and so sought to kill him (John 5:16-18).
Jesus took this claim further. He declared himself to be the only one who knew the Father, and therefore the only one who could reveal him to others (Matthew 11:27; John 6:46). He was one with the Father (John 10:30,38). Everything that belonged to the Father belonged to him (John 16:15; 17:10). The Father would send the Holy Spirit to believers in his name (John 14:26). To have our prayers answered we are to ask the Father in his name (John 14:13; 15:16; 16:23,24). He claimed to be the Son of God - not a son of God (Matthew 11:27; 14:33; 16:16,17; 21:33-41; Luke 22:70; John 1:49,50; 5:19-27; 10:36,38, etc.).
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheEvan
I just don't see what the big deal is. Both are going about to 'splain God. He isn't going to be 'splained to that extent. To a degree, I think both sides are just trying to describe the same thing. Now everybody is fighting over their own little description of the same danged thing.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheInvisibleDan
But IMHO, I think both the Trinitarian-Unitarian positions are missing the point entirely.
They actually focus little and practically upon the actual nature of God and Jesus Christ,
rather choosing to split hairs over whether Jesus was a human, God, Spirit, angel or
combination of whatever - literally, metaphorically, historically, philosophically,
or whatever.
If Christians are unable to come to a universal agreement with what the nature of God is in such terms (who among us really can?) - wouldn't the next best approach -outside of all this pointless, divisive
speculation, which has Christians attacking even one anothers' salvation - - to be to consider the actual characteristics of the nature of God, Jesus and Holy Spirit?
You know, characteristics of divine nature like love, kindness, benevolence and compassion?
Now those are terms whereof anyone might immediately comprehend the nature of God, Christ and Spirit -
outside of all the tired, counterproductive arguments and speculations over God, Man, spirit, and what their actual relation is to one another.
How about a Christian creed on the nature of God that begins: "We believe that GOD IS LOVE..."? rather than this hurtful crap that leads Christians to questioning one anothers' salvation?
That tells me more about the actual nature of God, Christ and Holy Spirit than anything of practical worth I've seen coming from the Trinitarian /Unitarian camps, so obsessed to be "right" that many seemingly overlook the attributes of God's "nature" which really do matter.
Danny
Edited by TheInvisibleDanLink to comment
Share on other sites
GarthP2000
Ermmm, you don't know very much about Unitarianism or its history, do ya?
Sometimes you need to look beyond the lines that Orthodoxy draws for you to get more genuine and relevent information, altho' that tactic is often frowned on by many of those who like to 'feel safe' within those lines.
Sometimes (as in often, IMHO) 'heresy' (looking at and thinking a different way) isn't as dangerous as many people think it is.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Too Gray Now
Danny,
When I read what you wrote, here is what I thought...
Sometimes the most succient things I want to say - just sounds too cliche... Oh well. Here goes.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
Maybe this is overly simplistic, but.. If God is the great "I will be what I will be", and His wisdom is infinitely diversified..
seems to me that even three Gods wouldn't be enough to really represent His true nature.. at least in man's way of thinking about things.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.