Oldies, I most likely got saved as a result of folks in TWI. I dedicated 2 years of my life as a WOW Ambassador, giving up a carreer to do so. I stood faithfully with TWI for about 7 years, it being the central thing in my life. I got great benefits from my time in TWI.
Sorry for the derail.
I just get all warm and fuzzy and excited when I read that. :lol:
I am glad you do. But do you get the same warm fuzzies from the paragraphs that followed that one in that very same post? - Interestingly, the topic was the same as this one, but was back in March 2004. for the record, here is that entire post of mine.
Oldies, I most likely got saved as a result of folks in TWI. I dedicated 2 years of my life as a WOW Ambassador, giving up a carreer to do so. I stood faithfully with TWI for about 7 years, it being the central thing in my life. I got great benefits from my time in TWI.
However, when I saw the direction it was taking and realized the coruption at the top, for whatever reason, luck, intution, etc, I had sense enough to get out.
You are very presumptive to suggest that I did not appreciate TWI at the time I was in, or that I perceive no benefit.
But unlike you, I have the balls to to look beyond my own experiences (Gee, I got blessed - it must be good ...) and consider the experiences of others and the facts of what really went on in TWI. You are like the person VPW talked about that gets a good feeling on a psychiatrists couch.
You're thinking in black and white again. You cannot seem to fathom the notion that TWI was corrupt early on so you deny it and disregard the testimony of many eye witnesses.
You can't seem to imagine how someone can call the TWI that you loved and supported "evil" what at the same understand they also reaped some benefit from it, so you make eroneous presumtions like above.
But you are right on one thing, I appreciated TWI, but certainly not like you did. I did not appreciate it enough to call the ungodly actions of a power monger "love", or to justify ungodly terror as "cleaning up the household" .
It has been told to me by quite a few folks that they replied to the letter with something like:
I will stand with you as long as you stand on the word.
Apprantly this was not good enough as Martindale dismissed these folks from staff.
Why?
Because it's not really an answer, now is it? If he's not "standing on the Word", then the honest thing to do (which many did) was leave.
Like I said before, loyalty to a man was not a new thing in TWI, Wierwille required it, although he was a bit more diplomatic about how he stated it. Would Wierwille have put up with Limb Leaders or other staff sending their abundant sharing to Peter Wade?
Granted, future events, as well as later unveiling of past events, show this letter for the hypocritical load of crap that it is, but unless one thought that they could affect change from within, that is, force Martindale to change or resign, and bring back the "good ol' days", why stay within the organization that is run by this horse's foot?
Because it's not really an answer, now is it? If he's not "standing on the Word", then the honest thing to do (which many did) was leave.
Hey Oak
I did not word my reply quite like the above but it was similar but I do believe that was an answer. I don't think at that point many people really wanted to leave they wanted as you said change. I think that most were trying to exist or hang on hoping for the change that never came. At the same time I think the message was we can go down this path together(stand with you) but if you Craig choose to turn away and take another path then we wont follow you down a path which we believe to be destructive. ( and since we are on different paths logically we will not be standing beside you.) Another words I did not see it as standing in the sense of following after a man but more like standing with a brother in Christ in which we are all equal.
I reread the letter of response today and I just listed what we had been doing for the past years which in a nutshell was teach the Bible and try to kindly help people. I told him we intended to keep on the same path and I hoped he would also. But either way if he did or did not our path was clearly going to remain the same as it had for the past years.
Craig closed his letter with the following:
If it is your decision not to honor God's calling I will be sorry.
"I can remove the label from your name, but I can not remove your responsibility before God. That's something you'll have to deal with him on."
My closing was Since the Way Corps is as you indicated a calling from God, then logically it is His responsibility to oversee it. It is His Judgment we clearly must honor as set forth in I Cor 4:2-5, Romans 14: 10-13 and Acts 4:19b. If it is your decision not to honor God's calling we will also be sorry. You can fail to recognize the label on our names but you can not remove the responsibility before God. We have no other choice " For we can not but speak the things which we have seen and heard" Acts 4:20,
So I guess maybe the honest thing was to continue down the path and hope maybe somewhere down the road that Craig would catch up.
HE WASNT STANDING ON THE WORD............and we all know that now. So, in other words, the people that left after the letter were correct in their surmisings. And the idiots like myself and a number of my close friends were wrong by "standing" with him and enabling his evil actions and black heart.
I can understand how someone would, in the Spring of 1989, see that letter and agree with Oldiesman's arguments. They make perfect sense in that light. But to tell us that we cannot consider what happened next in determining the value of the letter is foolhardy, ignorant, down-right DUMB. Martindale's actions following the issuance of that letter validated his critics. This was no stand on God's Word. It was a proclamation of tyrranical authority, evidenced by the fact that he followed the letter by ruling like a tyrant.
I beg to differ.
I validate the letter on its own, without needing support from the events that followed.
But when I look at those events, they were godly.
Folks left who believed Craig and the BOT were worshipping other gods, or at least not "standing on the word", which got the folks who were unhappy and malcontented, out.
There was, among other things, lots of peace in the fellowships that remained. No more arguing about Craig and the BOT being off the wall.
Twigs were loving full of peace unity, and no legalism.
PFAL classes were still being run and the word was moving.
There was still a WOW program where the word was moving.
Some folks were even returning, who had left in 1989.
I would estimate a window of about 5 years (1989-1994) when the word was moving. I'm not saying everything was perfect, but it certainly wasn't tyrannical, at least where I was. Far from it.
I was a twig coordinator too from around the end of 1989 to end of 1990 and I know there was no legalism.
I can't speak for others involvement during that time, but my time right after 1989 up until I stopped going to twig was pleasant and the word was moving.
But after around 1993-94, was when I think the present day false doctrines started about the excessive legalism, prying into peoples lives, mandatory ABS, genuine spiritual suspicion, word already over the world, closed ministry, homo purge, excessive meanness, so on and so forth.
Granted, future events, as well as later unveiling of past events, show this letter for the hypocritical load of crap that it is, but unless one thought that they could affect change from within, that is, force Martindale to change or resign, and bring back the "good ol' days", why stay within the organization that is run by this horse's foot?
Now I can agree with Oldiesman. Taken by itself, I can see how someone would defend the letter. But in light of LIGHT, it is... what were your words again? Ah, yes... a hypocritical load of crap.
Aw Jeez, but then you have to go and contradict yourself, Oldies!
"I validate the letter on its own..."
Let's use the "things equal to the same thing are equal to each other" argument and apply it to what you just said.
"I validate the hypocritical load of crap on its own..."
Why the devil would you want to do that? Either the letter was a hypocritical load of crap or it wasn't.
Some folks were returning, even those who had left in 1989? BIG WHOOP! Tons of folks were LEAVING, too!
I can't answer to whether there was legalism going on or not, because I left that wasteland before you did. I can tell you that the Craig worship that was going on (this is God's man, and if he's the wrong guy for the job then God is stupid because God chose him) was so thick you needed mining gear to reach the surface.
In these places Craig is saying he is moving the Word.
Why then was there the need for a wisecrack, suggesting he is not?
Because they didn't believe he was standing on the Word, it's that simple.
Oldies that is such a load of @#$! I can say I'm the president but just because I said it does not make it true. The facts would show different. There were plenty of facts at that time and now to show he was not anywhere close to standing on the Word in his thinking personal life or his treatment of others or his teachings. He and the other BOT had admitted to that and why they thought that they had not. Very little if any of those things had changed so the facts bear otherwise. It is truth not a insult.
I validate the letter on its own, without needing support from the events that followed.
[No, you're operating with PARTIAL information, and that out of choice. ]
But when I look at those events, they were godly.
Folks left who believed Craig and the BOT were worshipping other gods, or at least not "standing on the word", which got the folks who were unhappy and malcontented, out. [Partially true. This did not mean those who stayed were clueless about the ERROR practiced at hq. They just had LESS evidence, or had more reason to stay-like the famous "they thought they could fix things from within." ]
There was, among other things, lots of peace in the fellowships that remained. No more arguing about Craig and the BOT being off the wall. [ The fellowships that remained varied widely. Those in NYC were FINE for the most part because NYC twi'ers as individuals were stubborn individuals who were slow to bend their neck or scratch gravel for ANYBODY. That puts them as high on the list to escape when someone demands BLIND loy-alty. Further, the twiglets took their cues from the twig coordinators. The twig coordinators took their cues from the branch coordinators. The branch coordinators took their cues from the territory coordinators. The territory coordinators took their cues from the Limb coordinator. The Limb coordinator of NY state at that time was VF. VF was on some people's short-list for vpw's successor. He was better suited to running things nationally than lcm, and had experience running twi stuff. Therefore, he was more than capable of keeping the state intact, which he did. Locals didn't hear there WERE problems because we were insulated from it- because higher-ups didn't pass that along. Nobody below Territory Coordinator knew. So, branch coordinators smiled and said everything was fine-so the twig coordinators did the same, which is why you had no idea there were problems 1985-1989. However, there WAS information there-to which you lacked access. Some had access. When I heard there were problems, I naively thought they could be fixed, and VF might go work things out and help restore balance to lcm. I even said so. The very next piece of news from lcm was "I'm firing VF and every other staff member in NY state for being evil." So, every staff member in NY state seceeded-since they were already kicked out- but they remained in contact with each other-which makes sense unless you're an idiot. ]
Twigs were loving full of peace unity, and no legalism. [ Because they were maintained at the state, city, and neighborhood levels, there was some love and peace LOCALLY. This being twi, there was LESS legalism, but there was still legalism.]
PFAL classes were still being run and the word was moving. [ Locally, things moved along because locally we knew what we were doing. Locally, that's always been the case. ]
There was still a WOW program where the word was moving. [ I question the success of the wow program, for several reasons. At best, it was a mixed bag. Furthermore, you know NOTHING about what it was like on the field in 1989. lcm forced the issue with 1/4 of the wows. lcm kicked people off the field all over the place in 1989. So wows were STRANDED in the field as a direct result of lcm stripping them of leadership and part of their "families." In several cases, the wows notified hq that they were now stuck as a result-for rent and so on, which they were paying. HQ said-in one case I'm aware of-and I expect this was true for many I am NOT aware of-that they would help for THIS month but they were smoked for next month. WHEN THE PROMISED HELP FROM TWI DID NOT ARRIVE- which was the result of needs generated by twi kicking wows off the field- the wows were then forced to turn to rank-and-file believers to provide the assistance twi PROMISED to provide and was morally responsible TO provide. Since one believer who was contacted said "Well, I haven't sent in my tithe for this month yet, so I can send it to you", the wows I'm aware of were not EVICTED, which would have been the result of lcm's decision and twi's failure to live up to a direct promise. Ever see a wow get his pin and REFUSE TO SHAKE lcm's hand? Someone got a snapshot.... That was lcm's "contribution" to the wow field.]
Some folks were even returning, who had left in 1989.
I would estimate a window of about 5 years (1989-1994) when the word was moving. I'm not saying everything was perfect, but it certainly wasn't tyrannical, at least where I was. Far from it.
[Actually,
the stage was already being set.
Forget the wow program, the PFAL class-lcm was preparing to throw them out and
replace them with something inferior because it had his name on it.
And if a handful was returning, at least that many were STILL LEAVING.
Of course, with so few NYC'ers LEFT, it's hard to see ANY people arriving as anything
less than a huge jump.
]
I was a twig coordinator too from around the end of 1989 to end of 1990 and I know there was no legalism.
[ Not local to you, no. Didn't you find it odd when lcm sent a letter saying
"I'm firing VF and Li*** Ma***, your local overseer, because he's corrupt?"
You'd met LM, correct?
Didn't you know he was the real deal? ]
I can't speak for others involvement during that time, but my time right after 1989 up until I stopped going to twig was pleasant and the word was moving.
[ Oh, wait-
you're one of the guys who stayed and were promoted to "top local guy" after everyone with a lick
of training left.
That explains a lot....
If I'd stayed, you might have been taking orders from me within a few years....
But after around 1993-94, was when I think the present day false doctrines started about the excessive legalism, prying into peoples lives, mandatory ABS, genuine spiritual suspicion, word already over the world, closed ministry, homo purge, excessive meanness, so on and so forth.
[ Wrong.
When lcm fired all the staff across NY state, the Father Son and Holy Ghost caught the last train
to the coast.
4 out of every 5 Joe Believers walked.
All the Territory and Branch coordinators walked.
Almost all the Advanced class grads walked.
ALL the corps grads walked.
That was statewide-citywide, the numbers were even higher in NYC.
The Bronx was a Territory before lcm drew his line in the sand-
it became a SMALL twig AFTER the line.
Manhattan-the same.
I'm not aware of anyone I knew in BQSI who stayed, which to me is a sign that
the majority of the other 3 boroughs walked as well.
I know it's true NORTH of NYC, in Westchester County and Yonkers as well.
=====
I do know a handful of people DID stay, for reasons which were there own.
(I didn't speak to any of them face-to-face.)
I AM aware that those whom I knew who stayed,
they were among the "bottom-feeders" in skill and ability.
As I said once before, if I had stayed, I would have been one of
NYC's heavier hitters even then.
That's not saying I was that good-that's saying those who remained
were not up to scratch.
All the quality people left, and a handful of the least-talented stayed.
Doesn't say much for the discernment of the remainders.
You've previously posted that there were some quality
heavy-hitters who remained in NYC after the 1989 split.
Once again, I call "shenanagans" on that.
After 1989, the skill-levels would have to be
recalibrated to measure at lower levels to consider
stragglers as heavy-hitters.
All the people lcm himself used to cite as important
I validate the letter on its own, without needing support from the events that followed.
But when I look at those events, they were godly.
Folks left who believed Craig and the BOT were worshipping other gods, or at least not "standing on the word", which got the folks who were unhappy and malcontented, out.
There was, among other things, lots of peace in the fellowships that remained. No more arguing about Craig and the BOT being off the wall. So you are saying that if there is a thief in the office and he gets everyone who knows he is one fired then all is ok because the rest of the people in the office are clueless that he is a thief. So all is fine because there is no more talk of people thieving.
Twigs were loving full of peace unity, and no legalism.
PFAL classes were still being run and the word was moving. For a select few! You mean They were not being run for those who had agreement with The Way that they could repeat the class anytime they were available. Yeah thats someone Standing on the Word....... Oh and when they could not find a way around the contract they just retired the class and made a new one to keep people out. Yeah Also sounds like someone Moving the Word........
There was still a WOW program where the word was moving.
Some folks were even returning, who had left in 1989.
I would estimate a window of about 5 years (1989-1994) when the word was moving. I'm not saying everything was perfect, but it certainly wasn't tyrannical, at least where I was. Far from it.
I was a twig coordinator too from around the end of 1989 to end of 1990 and I know there was no legalism.
I can't speak for others involvement during that time, but my time right after 1989 up until I stopped going to twig was pleasant and the word was moving.
But after around 1993-94, was when I think the present day false doctrines started about the excessive legalism, prying into peoples lives, mandatory ABS, genuine spiritual suspicion, word already over the world, closed ministry, homo purge, excessive meanness, so on and so forth.
I can't believe the simplicity of this has to be stated again:
To evaluate this letter without understanding what preceded and what followed is to celebrate ignorance. It's stupid.
The best that can be said for that approach is that it could lead a reader to say, "Oh, so THAT's why I was deceived." This letter IS deception, and LCM's actions that followed prove it.
Oldies if the fellowships were self governing self propergating and self supporting as per the Way Tree then if that was the decision of the fellowship it is their money they can send it where they want. They should inform everyone as such and if they did not want to do that then they could send their money elsewhere. We sent money both places for awhile which ever people wanted it to go because we had some who wanted to send theirs to each so we offered both. Whats the problem with that?
It does have problems that way.
With the ministry, any ministry, I think all monies collected by the responsible parties should go to that very same group, supporting that one group.
Why be duplicitous?
Individual folks can send their own money to whereever they want.
But being a leader in a particular group, church, ministry, cult, whatever you want to call it, responsible to collect money for that group, you really should be in full support of that group, or get out.
My belief is: make up your mind who you stand with, and then take a stand, one way or the other.
This is what Craig was writing, and I believe he was right on.
If your not willing to give the Board of Trustees an honest and basic "benefit of the doubt" in decisions made and policies set, then I can not work with you. So many things are just simply a difference of opinion,
Here is what I wrote in the margin of my letter about that:
Now this is from a person who had just admitted that he was in a fog and had failed his responsibility in running things, why in God's name would I want to accept his "benefit of the doubt" when they proved to be in error the past few years? ...
You didn't have to accept.
You were free to leave.
He was inviting you to leave.
If you doubted that he was walking on the Word and moving forth with the things of God, he invited you to leave.
I look at this as a call to recommit oneself, rev up the engine, ready to move, leaving the past behind.
Those who couldn't or wouldn't leave the past behind, were asked to leave.
I'll bet you're laughing your @$$ off thinking of how we've all been shaking our heads thinking you're serious. :huh: :mellow: :blink: Kinda like Mike and the Stress thread....you just like pushing buttons, don't you. Come on, you can fess up! :P
Craig's letter was all about supporting HIM when it Should have been all about supporting God and His Son Jesus Christ
I disagree in part Mo.
Craig wrote
God first, but you must decide with whom you want to work and fellowship. To stand with God means to do His Word and Will. That includes walking with mutual love and respect and like-mindedness and one accord. Each of us must decide with whom we want to do that.
Yes he did want support. And he was saying, and I believe this, that part of supporting God and Christ also means walking with mutual love and respect likemindedness and one accord.
Thinking that Craig and the BOT is off the wall and worshipping other gods doesn't fit that description, which was why a line had to be drawn.
I validate the letter on its own, without needing support from the events that followed.
But when I look at those events, they were godly.
Folks left who believed Craig and the BOT were worshipping other gods, or at least not "standing on the word", which got the folks who were unhappy and malcontented, out.
This presumes that Craig was "standing on the word". He wasn't. If there was godly action here , it was by those who chose to separate themselves from Craig and from those who mistakenly chose to give loyalty to a man that was "off the beam" .
There was, among other things, lots of peace in the fellowships that remained. No more arguing about Craig and the BOT being off the wall.
This was not Biblical peace. It was simply the absence of folks who dared to speak the truth to those who refused to hear it. Quiet maybe - but not necessarily godly.
Twigs were loving full of peace unity, and no legalism.
With the enlighted folks gone it might have seemed "peaceful". Kinda like when you run off a prophet who is nagging you to get back on the ball. The lack of legalism may have been seemingly true for your area, but it was not in others.
PFAL classes were still being run and the word was moving.
PFAL is not the word. The fact that PFAL classes were running does not indicate that the "Word was moving".
There was still a WOW program where the word was moving.
Any "word" that moved was a credit to the Wows themselves, not to Martindale or TWI Inc. Running PFAL classes ( the primary objective of the WOW program), is not equivalent to "moving the word". Filling the pews with ABSing believers is not a measure of Christian success.
Some folks were even returning, who had left in 1989.
Returning to the perceived lesser of two evils should not be construed as godly. But it does speaks loudly as to the level of indoctrination many folks were exposed to in TWI. One false dilema was that folks may have thought to chose between either Martindale or Geer. Another may have been either stand with God via loyalty to Martindale or ---------- ( fill in the blank).
I would estimate a window of about 5 years (1989-1994) when the word was moving. I'm not saying everything was perfect, but it certainly wasn't tyrannical, at least where I was. Far from it.
Where where you, in a cave?
I was a twig coordinator too from around the end of 1989 to end of 1990 and I know there was no legalism.
Possibly that's because you were a part of the growing legalism problem and you refuse to admit it to yourself. Maybe that simply applied to your area. In any case that is your perception of your own experience. Many others had much different experiences during that same period, yet you do not include their experiences in your assement of things. How objective is that? .
I can't speak for others involvement during that time, but my time right after 1989 up until I stopped going to twig was pleasant and the word was moving.
The sum of things related to TWI does not revolve soley around your experience. When you ignore and deny the experiences and testimonies of others and only assess VPW, LCM and TWI based upon your own perception of your own experiences, you are in effect trying to speaking for others. It is foolish and intellectually dishonest. If folks were to listen to you, anyone who left TWI before you, left too early. And anyone who stayed longer, left too late. Seems kinda skewed and arrogant to me. If folks listen to you, TWI was fine and dandy ( except a few minor problems) then all of a sudden one day *poof* it got all legalistic and mean. Let me guess, that was the day that you left or got kicked out.
But after around 1993-94, was when I think the present day false doctrines started about the excessive legalism, prying into peoples lives, mandatory ABS, genuine spiritual suspicion, word already over the world, closed ministry, homo purge, excessive meanness, so on and so forth.
This is your revisonist history that denies the experiences of others. The seeds for these doctrines and practices were planted well before 1993.
HE WASNT STANDING ON THE WORD............and we all know that now.
No, I don't know that.
I believe at the point he wrote the letter, and the few years (maybe 5 years at most) that followed, he was concerned about moving and standing on the Word, and profit followed.
Was he in fellowship with God continuously? I trow not. :lol:
But were not PFAL classes still being run, WOW program, people getting blessed and healed, him moving God's word, teaching, and so forth?
I am not so presumptuous to believe he was totally off the wall, all that time.
Those who couldn't or wouldn't leave the past behind, were asked to leave.
No those who would not accept guesses and opinions rather than the biblical words that He and you for that matter were taught to use in decisions in spiritual matters - were asked to leave. Not the Same.......
Now I can agree with Oldiesman. Taken by itself, I can see how someone would defend the letter. But in light of LIGHT, it is... what were your words again? Ah, yes... a hypocritical load of crap.
Aw Jeez, but then you have to go and contradict yourself, Oldies!
"I validate the letter on its own..."
Let's use the "things equal to the same thing are equal to each other" argument and apply it to what you just said.
"I validate the hypocritical load of crap on its own..."
Why the devil would you want to do that? Either the letter was a hypocritical load of crap or it wasn't.
I don't belief it was, and I don't believe I said that.
I think someone else said it was a hypocritical load ...
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Goey
I am glad you do. But do you get the same warm fuzzies from the paragraphs that followed that one in that very same post? - Interestingly, the topic was the same as this one, but was back in March 2004. for the record, here is that entire post of mine.
Still all wam and fuzzy?
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templelady
In a nutshell
Craig's letter was all about supporting HIM when it Should have been all about supporting God and His Son Jesus Christ
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Oakspear
Like I said before, loyalty to a man was not a new thing in TWI, Wierwille required it, although he was a bit more diplomatic about how he stated it. Would Wierwille have put up with Limb Leaders or other staff sending their abundant sharing to Peter Wade?
Granted, future events, as well as later unveiling of past events, show this letter for the hypocritical load of crap that it is, but unless one thought that they could affect change from within, that is, force Martindale to change or resign, and bring back the "good ol' days", why stay within the organization that is run by this horse's foot?
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WhiteDove
[quote name='Oakspear'
Because it's not really an answer, now is it? If he's not "standing on the Word", then the honest thing to do (which many did) was leave.
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oldiesman
I surmise because the response was an insult, prejudging that Martindale was not standing on the Word.
It might be something like saying to Joe Torre (who just lost the pennant), "I will stand with you as long as you keep working to win ballgames".
If you don't believe Torre wants to win ballgames, then go someplace else where you may believe in a manager who does. That was what Craig was saying.
Also:
Craig wrote
In these places Craig is saying he is moving the Word.
Why then was there the need for a wisecrack, suggesting he is not?
Because they didn't believe he was standing on the Word, it's that simple.
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Radar OReilly
But Oldies.........
HE WASNT STANDING ON THE WORD............and we all know that now. So, in other words, the people that left after the letter were correct in their surmisings. And the idiots like myself and a number of my close friends were wrong by "standing" with him and enabling his evil actions and black heart.
Radar
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oldiesman
I validate the letter on its own, without needing support from the events that followed.
But when I look at those events, they were godly.
I would estimate a window of about 5 years (1989-1994) when the word was moving. I'm not saying everything was perfect, but it certainly wasn't tyrannical, at least where I was. Far from it.
I was a twig coordinator too from around the end of 1989 to end of 1990 and I know there was no legalism.
I can't speak for others involvement during that time, but my time right after 1989 up until I stopped going to twig was pleasant and the word was moving.
But after around 1993-94, was when I think the present day false doctrines started about the excessive legalism, prying into peoples lives, mandatory ABS, genuine spiritual suspicion, word already over the world, closed ministry, homo purge, excessive meanness, so on and so forth.
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Raf
Now I can agree with Oldiesman. Taken by itself, I can see how someone would defend the letter. But in light of LIGHT, it is... what were your words again? Ah, yes... a hypocritical load of crap.
Aw Jeez, but then you have to go and contradict yourself, Oldies!
"I validate the letter on its own..."
Let's use the "things equal to the same thing are equal to each other" argument and apply it to what you just said.
"I validate the hypocritical load of crap on its own..."
Why the devil would you want to do that? Either the letter was a hypocritical load of crap or it wasn't.
Some folks were returning, even those who had left in 1989? BIG WHOOP! Tons of folks were LEAVING, too!
I can't answer to whether there was legalism going on or not, because I left that wasteland before you did. I can tell you that the Craig worship that was going on (this is God's man, and if he's the wrong guy for the job then God is stupid because God chose him) was so thick you needed mining gear to reach the surface.
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WhiteDove
Oldies that is such a load of @#$! I can say I'm the president but just because I said it does not make it true. The facts would show different. There were plenty of facts at that time and now to show he was not anywhere close to standing on the Word in his thinking personal life or his treatment of others or his teachings. He and the other BOT had admitted to that and why they thought that they had not. Very little if any of those things had changed so the facts bear otherwise. It is truth not a insult.
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WordWolf
'oldiesman':
I beg to differ.
I validate the letter on its own, without needing support from the events that followed.
[No, you're operating with PARTIAL information, and that out of choice. ]
But when I look at those events, they were godly.
[Partially true. This did not mean those who stayed were clueless about the ERROR practiced
at hq. They just had LESS evidence, or had more reason to stay-like the famous
"they thought they could fix things from within." ]
[ The fellowships that remained varied widely.
Those in NYC were FINE for the most part because NYC twi'ers as individuals were stubborn individuals
who were slow to bend their neck or scratch gravel for ANYBODY. That puts them as high on the
list to escape when someone demands BLIND loy-alty.
Further,
the twiglets took their cues from the twig coordinators. The twig coordinators took their cues from
the branch coordinators. The branch coordinators took their cues from the territory coordinators.
The territory coordinators took their cues from the Limb coordinator.
The Limb coordinator of NY state at that time was VF. VF was on some people's short-list for vpw's
successor. He was better suited to running things nationally than lcm, and had experience running
twi stuff. Therefore, he was more than capable of keeping the state intact, which he did.
Locals didn't hear there WERE problems because we were insulated from it- because higher-ups didn't
pass that along. Nobody below Territory Coordinator knew.
So, branch coordinators smiled and said everything was fine-so the twig coordinators did the same,
which is why you had no idea there were problems 1985-1989.
However, there WAS information there-to which you lacked access.
Some had access.
When I heard there were problems, I naively thought they could be fixed, and VF might go
work things out and help restore balance to lcm. I even said so.
The very next piece of news from lcm was "I'm firing VF and every other staff member in NY state
for being evil."
So, every staff member in NY state seceeded-since they were already kicked out-
but they remained in contact with each other-which makes sense unless you're an idiot.
]
[ Because they were maintained at the state, city, and neighborhood levels,
there was some love and peace LOCALLY.
This being twi, there was LESS legalism, but there was still legalism.]
[ Locally, things moved along because locally we knew what we were doing.
Locally, that's always been the case. ]
[ I question the success of the wow program, for several reasons.
At best, it was a mixed bag.
Furthermore, you know NOTHING about what it was like on the field
in 1989.
lcm forced the issue with 1/4 of the wows.
lcm kicked people off the field all over the place in 1989.
So wows were STRANDED in the field as a direct result of lcm
stripping them of leadership and part of their "families."
In several cases, the wows notified hq that they were now
stuck as a result-for rent and so on, which they were paying.
HQ said-in one case I'm aware of-and I expect this was true
for many I am NOT aware of-that they would help for THIS
month but they were smoked for next month.
WHEN THE PROMISED HELP FROM TWI DID NOT ARRIVE-
which was the result of needs generated by twi kicking
wows off the field-
the wows were then forced to turn to rank-and-file
believers to provide the assistance twi PROMISED to
provide and was morally responsible TO provide.
Since one believer who was contacted said
"Well, I haven't sent in my tithe for this month yet,
so I can send it to you",
the wows I'm aware of were not EVICTED,
which would have been the result of lcm's
decision and twi's failure to live up to a direct
promise.
Ever see a wow get his pin and REFUSE TO SHAKE
lcm's hand? Someone got a snapshot....
That was lcm's "contribution" to the wow field.]
I would estimate a window of about 5 years (1989-1994) when the word was moving. I'm not saying everything was perfect, but it certainly wasn't tyrannical, at least where I was. Far from it.
[Actually,
the stage was already being set.
Forget the wow program, the PFAL class-lcm was preparing to throw them out and
replace them with something inferior because it had his name on it.
And if a handful was returning, at least that many were STILL LEAVING.
Of course, with so few NYC'ers LEFT, it's hard to see ANY people arriving as anything
less than a huge jump.
]
I was a twig coordinator too from around the end of 1989 to end of 1990 and I know there was no legalism.
[ Not local to you, no. Didn't you find it odd when lcm sent a letter saying
"I'm firing VF and Li*** Ma***, your local overseer, because he's corrupt?"
You'd met LM, correct?
Didn't you know he was the real deal? ]
I can't speak for others involvement during that time, but my time right after 1989 up until I stopped going to twig was pleasant and the word was moving.
[ Oh, wait-
you're one of the guys who stayed and were promoted to "top local guy" after everyone with a lick
of training left.
That explains a lot....
If I'd stayed, you might have been taking orders from me within a few years....
But after around 1993-94, was when I think the present day false doctrines started about the excessive legalism, prying into peoples lives, mandatory ABS, genuine spiritual suspicion, word already over the world, closed ministry, homo purge, excessive meanness, so on and so forth.
[ Wrong.
When lcm fired all the staff across NY state, the Father Son and Holy Ghost caught the last train
to the coast.
4 out of every 5 Joe Believers walked.
All the Territory and Branch coordinators walked.
Almost all the Advanced class grads walked.
ALL the corps grads walked.
That was statewide-citywide, the numbers were even higher in NYC.
The Bronx was a Territory before lcm drew his line in the sand-
it became a SMALL twig AFTER the line.
Manhattan-the same.
I'm not aware of anyone I knew in BQSI who stayed, which to me is a sign that
the majority of the other 3 boroughs walked as well.
I know it's true NORTH of NYC, in Westchester County and Yonkers as well.
=====
I do know a handful of people DID stay, for reasons which were there own.
(I didn't speak to any of them face-to-face.)
I AM aware that those whom I knew who stayed,
they were among the "bottom-feeders" in skill and ability.
As I said once before, if I had stayed, I would have been one of
NYC's heavier hitters even then.
That's not saying I was that good-that's saying those who remained
were not up to scratch.
All the quality people left, and a handful of the least-talented stayed.
Doesn't say much for the discernment of the remainders.
You've previously posted that there were some quality
heavy-hitters who remained in NYC after the 1989 split.
Once again, I call "shenanagans" on that.
After 1989, the skill-levels would have to be
recalibrated to measure at lower levels to consider
stragglers as heavy-hitters.
All the people lcm himself used to cite as important
had left- wows, corps, Advanced class grads.
After 1989, of course, he stopped saying this,
since they weren't around.]
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WhiteDove
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Raf
I can't believe the simplicity of this has to be stated again:
To evaluate this letter without understanding what preceded and what followed is to celebrate ignorance. It's stupid.
The best that can be said for that approach is that it could lead a reader to say, "Oh, so THAT's why I was deceived." This letter IS deception, and LCM's actions that followed prove it.
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oldiesman
With the ministry, any ministry, I think all monies collected by the responsible parties should go to that very same group, supporting that one group.
Why be duplicitous?
Individual folks can send their own money to whereever they want.
But being a leader in a particular group, church, ministry, cult, whatever you want to call it, responsible to collect money for that group, you really should be in full support of that group, or get out.
My belief is: make up your mind who you stand with, and then take a stand, one way or the other.
This is what Craig was writing, and I believe he was right on.
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Raf
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oldiesman
You were free to leave.
He was inviting you to leave.
If you doubted that he was walking on the Word and moving forth with the things of God, he invited you to leave.
I look at this as a call to recommit oneself, rev up the engine, ready to move, leaving the past behind.
Those who couldn't or wouldn't leave the past behind, were asked to leave.
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Belle
OM, you ARE kidding, aren't you? ;)
I'll bet you're laughing your @$$ off thinking of how we've all been shaking our heads thinking you're serious. :huh: :mellow: :blink: Kinda like Mike and the Stress thread....you just like pushing buttons, don't you. Come on, you can fess up! :P
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oldiesman
Both godliness and evil were happening simultaneously.
And I believe both need to be considered to reach a balanced perspective that has some depth.
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oldiesman
Craig wrote
Yes he did want support. And he was saying, and I believe this, that part of supporting God and Christ also means walking with mutual love and respect likemindedness and one accord.
Thinking that Craig and the BOT is off the wall and worshipping other gods doesn't fit that description, which was why a line had to be drawn.
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Goey
Posted By Oldies:
This presumes that Craig was "standing on the word". He wasn't. If there was godly action here , it was by those who chose to separate themselves from Craig and from those who mistakenly chose to give loyalty to a man that was "off the beam" .
This was not Biblical peace. It was simply the absence of folks who dared to speak the truth to those who refused to hear it. Quiet maybe - but not necessarily godly.
With the enlighted folks gone it might have seemed "peaceful". Kinda like when you run off a prophet who is nagging you to get back on the ball. The lack of legalism may have been seemingly true for your area, but it was not in others.
PFAL is not the word. The fact that PFAL classes were running does not indicate that the "Word was moving".
Any "word" that moved was a credit to the Wows themselves, not to Martindale or TWI Inc. Running PFAL classes ( the primary objective of the WOW program), is not equivalent to "moving the word". Filling the pews with ABSing believers is not a measure of Christian success.
Returning to the perceived lesser of two evils should not be construed as godly. But it does speaks loudly as to the level of indoctrination many folks were exposed to in TWI. One false dilema was that folks may have thought to chose between either Martindale or Geer. Another may have been either stand with God via loyalty to Martindale or ---------- ( fill in the blank).
Where where you, in a cave?Possibly that's because you were a part of the growing legalism problem and you refuse to admit it to yourself. Maybe that simply applied to your area. In any case that is your perception of your own experience. Many others had much different experiences during that same period, yet you do not include their experiences in your assement of things. How objective is that? .
The sum of things related to TWI does not revolve soley around your experience. When you ignore and deny the experiences and testimonies of others and only assess VPW, LCM and TWI based upon your own perception of your own experiences, you are in effect trying to speaking for others. It is foolish and intellectually dishonest. If folks were to listen to you, anyone who left TWI before you, left too early. And anyone who stayed longer, left too late. Seems kinda skewed and arrogant to me. If folks listen to you, TWI was fine and dandy ( except a few minor problems) then all of a sudden one day *poof* it got all legalistic and mean. Let me guess, that was the day that you left or got kicked out.This is your revisonist history that denies the experiences of others. The seeds for these doctrines and practices were planted well before 1993.
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oldiesman
I believe at the point he wrote the letter, and the few years (maybe 5 years at most) that followed, he was concerned about moving and standing on the Word, and profit followed.
Was he in fellowship with God continuously? I trow not. :lol:
But were not PFAL classes still being run, WOW program, people getting blessed and healed, him moving God's word, teaching, and so forth?
I am not so presumptuous to believe he was totally off the wall, all that time.
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WhiteDove
Those who couldn't or wouldn't leave the past behind, were asked to leave.
No those who would not accept guesses and opinions rather than the biblical words that He and you for that matter were taught to use in decisions in spiritual matters - were asked to leave. Not the Same.......
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Raf
Profit followed? Are you stoned?
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oldiesman
I think someone else said it was a hypocritical load ...
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Raf
My bad.
Shame, though. You'd have been right to say it.
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