Neither is there salvation in any other name

[TheEvan]

Mark makes an excellent point about the meanings of salvation.

Allan has appealed to the "we all know what it means" card, so I'll start there.

The most basic meaning is to be saved 'from', as in drowning, your own foolishness, a mistake, our sins, etc. is that what you meant? If so, I'll agree. If you meant saved means you were a "two part being" and now have become a "three part being" i'd have to disagree. I'll also say that saved & "born again" do not mean the same thing.

Particularly in the Old Testament, it often means "saved from our enemies". I Sam 11:13, Ex. 1:17; 14:30, Judges 7:2, Luke 1:71.

Salvation is often personified as Christ, the Messiah. Ps. 14:7, 40:16, 53:6, Is 45:8, 62:11, Lk 1:69, 2:30, Acts 4:12, Tit 2:11, etc.

Being saved is often related to righteousness or righeous deeds. Read the scriptures and see if you agree. This isn't as direct a relationship, but I'm drawing the connection. II Chron 6:41, Ps 24:5, 37:39, 50:23, 65:5, 71:15, 79:9, 98:2, Is 46:13, 56:1, 61:10

Salvation now means to be saved from our sins. Lk 1:77, Acts 13:38, Rom 10:9&10, II Cor 7:10, Mk 13:13, Jn 3:16&17, Rom 5:10, I Cor 1:18, Tit 3:5, I Pet 4:18

Salvation is received by faith alone. Rom 1:16&17, Eph 1:13, II Thes 2:13, I Pet 1:9, Mk 16:16, Lk 7:50, 8:12, Acts 16:31, Rom 10:9, I Cor 15:2, Eph 2:8, Ps 34:18, Heb 10:39, 11:7

In some cases, confession is also mentioned (but I'll maintain it's not part of a formula) Rom 10:9, Acts 2:21, Rom 10:13, Ps 107:19

Saved from future wrath. I Thes 5:9, Jn 3:17, Rom 5:9, I cor3:15

So, what were you talking about Allan? On or more of these? Or perhaps another?

[What The Hey]

...instead of relying on what you claimed to have "studied" biblically, I'll do my own research, as Mark did in finding you were wrong.

Actually no, I was not wrong about sos, but neither was Mark. The problem is there are two words - sos, one with a long vowel and one with a short vowel, but these two words sure have different meanings. I was refering to and referencing "sos" (the short vowel) which is Strongs # 4674. However Mark was refering to sos (with the long vowel). So that is where the difference is. The distinction between these two words sos (the one with the short and the long vowel) was not indicated in the original post. So lets be clear if we are refering to sos with the long vowel or the one with the short vowel. (You will notice the Greek letters for "o" are different in the spelling of these two words.)

I don't recall if VPW ever made the claim that zoe was directly related to sos or sozo. I do and can see where there could be a relationship here as it is intersting to note that the Greek word zoe is most ofen used when refering to eternal life in contrast to and rather than "breath life" or any of the other words in the Greek that is used for life. I am refering to the Greek words, such as: "bios-life" (a manner or period of life) or agoge- (a course of life), to name a couple examples. Here are the references for zoe when zoe is refering to "eternal life" in contrast to some other "life".

Matt. 7:14, 18:8, 19:16,17,29, 25:46.

Mark 9:43, 10:17,30.

Luke 1:75, 10:25, 12:15, 18:18,30.

John 1:4, 3:15,36 4:14,36, 5:24,26,29,40, 6:27,33,35,40,47,48,51,5,54,63,68, 8:12, 10:10,28, 11:25, 12:25,50, 14:6, 17:2,3, 20:31.

Acts 2:28, 3:13, 5:20, 8:33, 11:18, 13:46,48, 17:25

Rom. 2:7, 5:10,17,18,21, 6:4,22,23, 7:10, 8:2,6,10,38, 11:15

1 Co. 3:22, 15:10

2 Co. 2:16, 4:10,12, 5:4

Gal. 6:8

Eph. 4:18

Phil. 1:20, 2:16, 4:3

Col. 3:3,4

1 Ti. 1:16, 4:8, 6:12,19

2 Ti. 1:1,10

Titus 1:2, 3:7

Heb. 7:3,16

1 Pe. 3:7,10

2 Pe. 1:3

1 Jo. 1:1,2, 2:25, 3:14,15, 5:11,12,13,16,20

Jude 21

Rev. 2:7,10, 3:5, 11:11, 13:8, 17:8, 20:12,15, 21:6,27, 22:1,2,14,17 and 19.

What's your source, WTH? Did YOU do your own?

The above references were taken from Youngs Analytical, but one can also look them up in Strongs if they want, which is Strongs# 2222.

Strongs 2222

The remark about Strong's Concordance being put together with the intent to discredit VPW was rather ignorant. It is akin to some of the ignorant remarks I have heard made in an attempt to discredit the Youngs Analytical Concordance - for some unknown reason or another. Such remarks usually come from those who do not know how to use either resource very well. Those who do know how to use both resources hardly find anything that is contradictory between them. If anything, they only complement one another when both resources are used correctly.

Edited October 21, 2005 by What The Hey

[Raf]

The remark about Strong's Concordance being put together with the intent to discredit VPW was rather ignorant.

I could say you missed the point, WTH. I could say that the thought that some people are researching solely to discredit VPW is not only ignorant, but outright stupid. But since you've made up your mind on the subject, it wouldn't really matter, would it? Since you don't recognize a joke when you see one, how can I expect you to know what I was saying in that post? I didn't, which is a good thing, because you didn't.

[Lifted Up]

Clarifying our terms to avoid confusion is a necessary step if we are to

increase in understanding.

Therefore, making sure we mean EXACTLY the same thing with our

terms is necessary.

WW, I know the words are different, but you sound just like VPW in JCING where he expressed the need to clarify the definition of the Trinity before refuting it.

[Goey]

WW, I know the words are different, but you sound just like VPW in JCING where he expressed the need to clarify the definition of the Trinity before refuting it.

So, what's your point?

Are you saying that defining terms is not necessary? Or that it shouldnt be done 'cause someone might sound like VPW? ..... Do you have a point? ....... What?

Edited October 21, 2005 by Goey

[TheEvan]

One problem is that Wierwille drew wrong conclusions about what trinitarians believe after defining it. Difining terms was a good start. Going back and immediately obfuscating was not a healthy way to build his argument.

[excathedra]

I would also add that "life" (Hayya) used in the Syriac versions in place of "saved" or "salvation" most likely carried an eschatological significance, along the lines of "life in the age to come", with the expectation of becoming like the angels in heaven.

that would be nice especially since this life sucks most the time

[TheInvisibleDan]

that would be nice especially since this life sucks most the time

Yeah, it sure does (lol).

Or as said in Lexx,

damn these type-13 planets.

Danny