The way it works there, the band plays and we all sing along (top forty Christian music) for about twenty minutes and someone will let loose with tongues. Sometimes the tongues speaker goes on and on and there'll be a long wait for the interpretation. Usually the Int. will be about the same length as the T. So far there hasn't been anyone to stand and let a Prophesy rip without tongues.
I'm surprised at how seldom it happens (about once a month) and there's never been more than one T & I per meeting.
I'm not sure that it isn't always the same woman. T & I has come from the other side of the church and try as I may I can't see who's doing it.
I can't remember if they do it with KJV language. I'll take note the next time.
mstar1,
I didn't know Episcopalians SIT. Do they do it during regular Sunday meetings?
FWIW: I think the emphasis in PFAL on having the Proof of the new birth was not on proving it to others, but to oneself. It's a comfort to know that, no matter what else may be questioned or questionable, I can rest in the knowledge that I have received the gift of holy spirit. So, to some extent the criticism in this thread leveled at VP insinuating that he taught that you aren't saved unless you speak in tongues is unfair.
However, I was always a little dismayed about the omission of worship from VP's list of the benefits of speaking in tongues. He mentioned that it is worship by the spirit (an interpretation of John 4:24ff that I think fits the context). But when he listed the benefits of speaking in tongues, he omitted that. And, perhaps as a result, the focus in Wayworld has always been on the human aspects of tongues (proof of holy spirit, edifying the believer, fruit of the spirit, perfect prayer, etc). The biggest benefit, imo, is not what speaking in tongues gives us, but what it enables us to give God. Pure worship, perfect praise. In my experience (which is by no means definitive), the most rewarding times spent speaking in tongues have been those times when I did it as an offering to my heavenly Father.
Re: baptism. I was raised in the A.M.E. church and was baptized when I was about 15. It didn't mean much to me, but for some reason, I fainted. I think my mother took that as some kind of omen because she seemed a little concerned, but was uncharacteristically quite about it. But I didn't get saved or born again, until a few years later. That happened in a back alley in Wheeling WV on a Saturday night. And it had nothing to do with Romans 10:9 and 10, at least not in a formal or formulaic way. I was dating a wonderful Christian girl and she kept trying to get me saved. I already believed in God and considered myself devout, so I asked her what I needed Jesus for. (even back then, I was a stubborn unitarian. I didn't like all the emphasis on Jesus because I thought he was stealing God's glory). She said it's like a little child who goes out to play and gets all dirty. He comes home and his mother cleans him up. That's what Jesus Christ does. He cleans us up spiritually. Somehow that made sense to me, and we prayed together and voila! I got saved.
So I agree that the Way's overemphasis on Romans 10:9 was a narrowminded, somewhat carnal approach to the question of how people receive the new birth. I think people receive it simply by accepting Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. Denominations and ministers get all bent out of shape about what salvation is and what's required, but God looks on the heart.
never lost but just not stopping long enough to know it
grounding ourselves into what has been done
like leaning against a tree
letting the grind of life stop
breathing out giving
breathing in all the hurt and let the spirit burn it away
Jerry
spirit was never lost
it's always been there and always will
it is to be kept like in the garden
clearing out the brush and weeds that have
covered it up....the rest against the tree of life
realized when we let our souls melt into his will
Hi Clay, God bless!
Well I guess I have some gardening to do. I've done some meditating and it's been a peaceful and helpful. But I also had a disturbing experience with 'guided' mediation that tends to reinforce the Way's warnings agains "opening" one's mind. So af far as meditation is concerned, the jury's still out.
I didn't know Episcopalians SIT. Do they do it during regular Sunday meetings?
I personally have not seen it in a Sunday worship service,( It doesn't mean that some may not) but I did experience it in smaller group settings in both the Episcopal and Catholic churches my first few years after leaving TWI. Im not sure if it is the norm but it exists within both groups and as well as someplace within many denominations
If by formula you mean a "recipe" ie. 1 cup faith, 2 confessions Jesus is Lord, simmer in a water bath of believing..............
No it isn't that simple.
Yes you confess Jesus is Lord. Yes you believe he is the Son of God who led a perfect life, suffered and died for our sins and was raised from the dead.
But there is more. YOU have TO BE a follower of Christ. That means in action and in thought. You need to be chaste, honest, virtuous, help the poor and needy, loving, forgiving etc. Every day you need to"renew your mind" (can't believe I used that phrase B) ) to follow in Christ's footsteps. .........
Saying Jesus is Lord is not a free pass that covers deliberate bad behavior
Perhaps this is off the main topic, and it's probably been hashed over hundreds of times by now, but, templelady, how does your above answer fit in with we are not saved by works?
You are saved because of the atonement of Jesus Christ.
Once you accept Jesus Christ you have to be a follower of Christ. That means bearing fruit (by their fruit ye shall know them) that means loving your neighbor not in some passive mental state but, taking care of the widow, the orphan, visiting the sick, the jailed, clothing the poor, feeding the hungry.
Christianity is a faith of action-those who think they have a get out of jail free card just by being baptized are in for a rude awakening IMO
I have been to 'many' churches and denominations since leaving twi and NONE of them have 'operated' the manifestations the way twi taught.
That doesn't meant that they're all wrong. A lot of what TWI taught was a patchwork of half-truths and assumptions. Our readiness to condemn our Christian brethren because they worship differently is not something we should be proud of.
Peace
JerryB
I personally have not seen it in a Sunday worship service,( It doesn't mean that some may not) but I did experience it in smaller group settings in both the Episcopal and Catholic churches my first few years after leaving TWI. Im not sure if it is the norm but it exists within both groups and as well as someplace within many denominations
That's great news MStar. I think s.i.t. is a powerful force for good in the world. The more God's kids do it, the better off we all are.
Thank you for your delightfully poetic response. The next time "related relaxing" comes up in a conversation I'll be ready to throw in my two cents on the subject.
I've got the mind going blank part down pretty good already.
Lots of places,--- Catholic, Episcopalian, Pentecostal and Charismatic is all I can remember right now, although I am sure that there were other 'nondenominational' and more fringe type smaller groups that i cant remember the names of....
I know there is quite the revival going on in the Church right now. Called (of course) the "Catholic Charismatic Renewal"...its pretty easy to find groups almost anywhere...
Charismatic renewal's beginnings were indeed in the Catholic church. It started in the early 70's I believe.
Though there has been blurring of late, there has always been a fundamental difference in approach and beliefs between the Pentecostals and the Charismatics. Personally I view Charismatic renewal as a mixed bag.
Charismatic renewal's beginnings were indeed in the Catholic church. It started in the early 70's I believe.
Though there has been blurring of late, there has always been a fundamental difference in approach and beliefs between the Pentecostals and the Charismatics. Personally I view Charismatic renewal as a mixed bag.
The charismatic renewal movement is not without controversy. 1967 was the date...a youth retreat as I recall was where it started. I'm more of a traditionalist rather than a charismatic, so I don't really have that much history on the subject, just a cursory knowledge. I know they have "charismatic" and "healing" prayer services all the time now, at least in my area.
But if you really look at it, though, there has repeatedly been the movement of the Holy Spirit in the Church. Many of the well-known saints, such as Theresa of Avila, Therese of Liseux, Padre Pio, Francis of Assisi, Claire of Assisi, Benedict, and so on, have documented phenomena associated with them...including prolonged ecstasies, particularly in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament, healings, miraculous knowledge, prophesies, even the stigmata. Different manifestations and gifts of the Holy Spirit. Just because Glossolalia wasn't reported in the histories doesn't mean that it didn't happen. Besides, one can look at 1 Cor 12:11 and see that these gifts are distributed by the Holy Spirit as He deems fit. The point being is that I would hardly consider the recent "Charismatic Movement" as the first movement since the first century.
Evan, I'm not sure, though, what you mean by a difference in approach and beliefs between the Pentecostals and the Charismatics though. Could you please expound a bit?
Also Evan, could you speak a little about what worship is like at Brother Leonard's?
Clay,
The interpretation today was in regular English. The message was very dramatic. It listed about five blessings from God and each began, "Don't you know my people." It was like: Don't you know my people
I've called you. Don't you know my people I've . . ..
This Sunday was wild. The women just got back from a retreat and they were really fired up. The praise session went on so long they skipped the sermon. It was like James Brown's church in the "Blues Brothers" but add to the arm waving and wild dancing up and down the aisles - LOUD and STEADY howling.
For a while I just stood there staring like an anthropolgist but when the band dropped the playlist and went into hardcore Gospel my toes started tappn' and my hands started clappn'. It was a blast.
Justification emphasized to downplay sin - Sanctification sought to deal with sin
Frivolous, light - Serious, intense
Boasts of Anointing - Emphases on Consecration
Syncretizes with world - Separates from world
Personality showcased - Character mandated
Talent lauded - Dedication commended
Control of the Spirit - Controlled by the Spirit
Faith is a Force to Move God - Faith is Obedience to Will of God
New Twist to Selected portions of Scriptures- Literal Interpretation of the Whole of
Visual- Auditory
Congregation consists of spectators- Congregation consists of participators
Find the Formula- Find the Will of God
Praise, Praise, Praise- Pray, Pray, then Praise
Seeks the novel- Seeks the old paths
Seeks New (Novel) Thing- Seeks New (Fresh) Thing
Forget principle, love people- Uphold principles while loving people
Put on Production- Wait on Moving of Spirit
I use God - God uses me
Cutting Edge - Restorationist
Naturally, it's a pejorative view of the Charismatics. I'll add that the Charismatic movement springs from mainstream denominations. Pentecostalism springs out of the turn-of-the-century Pentecostal & Holiness movements. Those Holiness roots show up repeatedly in the above list.
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lovematters
penguin,
The way it works there, the band plays and we all sing along (top forty Christian music) for about twenty minutes and someone will let loose with tongues. Sometimes the tongues speaker goes on and on and there'll be a long wait for the interpretation. Usually the Int. will be about the same length as the T. So far there hasn't been anyone to stand and let a Prophesy rip without tongues.
I'm surprised at how seldom it happens (about once a month) and there's never been more than one T & I per meeting.
I'm not sure that it isn't always the same woman. T & I has come from the other side of the church and try as I may I can't see who's doing it.
I can't remember if they do it with KJV language. I'll take note the next time.
mstar1,
I didn't know Episcopalians SIT. Do they do it during regular Sunday meetings?
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CM
i think if you listen to people talking about cars or computers and you don't know what they are saying then it would be toungues to you...
just a basic example...
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lovematters
Of what?
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CM
if you listen to someone talking of spiritual matters and don't understand it could be that the one listening is not understanding what is being said
it is a spiritual manifestation or gift or angel to interpret toungues
therefore it takes the spirit to comprehend what is being said
not everyone is at the same place of understanding in there own lives
it's not something that is meant to put anyone down
there are different functions in the "body"
so relax and let God show you
and don't worry about stuff
what we were taught in twi is barely hitting the mark
good for meditation or related relaxing
but not what really happenened in acts 2
and other places imo
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lovematters
Clay,
I think I could get into "related relaxing."
What's that all about?
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Jbarrax
FWIW: I think the emphasis in PFAL on having the Proof of the new birth was not on proving it to others, but to oneself. It's a comfort to know that, no matter what else may be questioned or questionable, I can rest in the knowledge that I have received the gift of holy spirit. So, to some extent the criticism in this thread leveled at VP insinuating that he taught that you aren't saved unless you speak in tongues is unfair.
However, I was always a little dismayed about the omission of worship from VP's list of the benefits of speaking in tongues. He mentioned that it is worship by the spirit (an interpretation of John 4:24ff that I think fits the context). But when he listed the benefits of speaking in tongues, he omitted that. And, perhaps as a result, the focus in Wayworld has always been on the human aspects of tongues (proof of holy spirit, edifying the believer, fruit of the spirit, perfect prayer, etc). The biggest benefit, imo, is not what speaking in tongues gives us, but what it enables us to give God. Pure worship, perfect praise. In my experience (which is by no means definitive), the most rewarding times spent speaking in tongues have been those times when I did it as an offering to my heavenly Father.
Re: baptism. I was raised in the A.M.E. church and was baptized when I was about 15. It didn't mean much to me, but for some reason, I fainted. I think my mother took that as some kind of omen because she seemed a little concerned, but was uncharacteristically quite about it. But I didn't get saved or born again, until a few years later. That happened in a back alley in Wheeling WV on a Saturday night. And it had nothing to do with Romans 10:9 and 10, at least not in a formal or formulaic way. I was dating a wonderful Christian girl and she kept trying to get me saved. I already believed in God and considered myself devout, so I asked her what I needed Jesus for. (even back then, I was a stubborn unitarian. I didn't like all the emphasis on Jesus because I thought he was stealing God's glory). She said it's like a little child who goes out to play and gets all dirty. He comes home and his mother cleans him up. That's what Jesus Christ does. He cleans us up spiritually. Somehow that made sense to me, and we prayed together and voila! I got saved.
So I agree that the Way's overemphasis on Romans 10:9 was a narrowminded, somewhat carnal approach to the question of how people receive the new birth. I think people receive it simply by accepting Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. Denominations and ministers get all bent out of shape about what salvation is and what's required, but God looks on the heart.
Peace
JerryB
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CM
blanking out your mind
something we were taught not to do in twi
possession and all that stuff
but not that....
a releasing of energy
bringing your mind back to simple things
love, light, God loves you
Jesus finished it for us
to wrap ourselves into the love that is there
never lost but just not stopping long enough to know it
grounding ourselves into what has been done
like leaning against a tree
letting the grind of life stop
breathing out giving
breathing in all the hurt and let the spirit burn it away
Jerry
spirit was never lost
it's always been there and always will
it is to be kept like in the garden
clearing out the brush and weeds that have
covered it up....the rest against the tree of life
realized when we let our souls melt into his will
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Jbarrax
Hi Clay, God bless!
Well I guess I have some gardening to do. I've done some meditating and it's been a peaceful and helpful. But I also had a disturbing experience with 'guided' mediation that tends to reinforce the Way's warnings agains "opening" one's mind. So af far as meditation is concerned, the jury's still out.
But I'm highly in favor of breathing. :-)
Peace
JerryB
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CM
guided by whom?
let yourself guide yourself
trust that Christ within
if someone is trying to help they may not be helping
it is a personal experience...birth...new things seen
i do know of some who can guide without interfering with
what and who you are in Christ.....
noone can see what you see but there are some that can help
you are you and you will develop into your own part of the whole
always with you and within reach
Clay
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Allan
I have been to 'many' churches and denominations since leaving twi and NONE of them have 'operated' the manifestations the way twi taught.
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mstar1
I personally have not seen it in a Sunday worship service,( It doesn't mean that some may not) but I did experience it in smaller group settings in both the Episcopal and Catholic churches my first few years after leaving TWI. Im not sure if it is the norm but it exists within both groups and as well as someplace within many denominations
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irisheyes
Perhaps this is off the main topic, and it's probably been hashed over hundreds of times by now, but, templelady, how does your above answer fit in with we are not saved by works?
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templelady
You are saved because of the atonement of Jesus Christ.
Once you accept Jesus Christ you have to be a follower of Christ. That means bearing fruit (by their fruit ye shall know them) that means loving your neighbor not in some passive mental state but, taking care of the widow, the orphan, visiting the sick, the jailed, clothing the poor, feeding the hungry.
Christianity is a faith of action-those who think they have a get out of jail free card just by being baptized are in for a rude awakening IMO
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Jbarrax
That doesn't meant that they're all wrong. A lot of what TWI taught was a patchwork of half-truths and assumptions. Our readiness to condemn our Christian brethren because they worship differently is not something we should be proud of.
Peace
JerryB
That's great news MStar. I think s.i.t. is a powerful force for good in the world. The more God's kids do it, the better off we all are.
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TheEvan
Praise the Lord, then.
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lovematters
Clay,
Thank you for your delightfully poetic response. The next time "related relaxing" comes up in a conversation I'll be ready to throw in my two cents on the subject.
I've got the mind going blank part down pretty good already.
That's cause I'm a quick study.
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markomalley
I know there is quite the revival going on in the Church right now. Called (of course) the "Catholic Charismatic Renewal"...its pretty easy to find groups almost anywhere...
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Allan
About time wouldn't you say Mark..after all its' been 2000 years !!
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TheInvisibleDan
I recall hearing about the charismatic ministry of Father DiOrio back in the early 80s.
Even listened to one of his tapes at the time. He's still going strong, from what I hear.
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CM
you are welcome lovematters
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TheEvan
Charismatic renewal's beginnings were indeed in the Catholic church. It started in the early 70's I believe.
Though there has been blurring of late, there has always been a fundamental difference in approach and beliefs between the Pentecostals and the Charismatics. Personally I view Charismatic renewal as a mixed bag.
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markomalley
The charismatic renewal movement is not without controversy. 1967 was the date...a youth retreat as I recall was where it started. I'm more of a traditionalist rather than a charismatic, so I don't really have that much history on the subject, just a cursory knowledge. I know they have "charismatic" and "healing" prayer services all the time now, at least in my area.
But if you really look at it, though, there has repeatedly been the movement of the Holy Spirit in the Church. Many of the well-known saints, such as Theresa of Avila, Therese of Liseux, Padre Pio, Francis of Assisi, Claire of Assisi, Benedict, and so on, have documented phenomena associated with them...including prolonged ecstasies, particularly in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament, healings, miraculous knowledge, prophesies, even the stigmata. Different manifestations and gifts of the Holy Spirit. Just because Glossolalia wasn't reported in the histories doesn't mean that it didn't happen. Besides, one can look at 1 Cor 12:11 and see that these gifts are distributed by the Holy Spirit as He deems fit. The point being is that I would hardly consider the recent "Charismatic Movement" as the first movement since the first century.
Evan, I'm not sure, though, what you mean by a difference in approach and beliefs between the Pentecostals and the Charismatics though. Could you please expound a bit?
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lovematters
Also Evan, could you speak a little about what worship is like at Brother Leonard's?
Clay,
The interpretation today was in regular English. The message was very dramatic. It listed about five blessings from God and each began, "Don't you know my people." It was like: Don't you know my people
I've called you. Don't you know my people I've . . ..
This Sunday was wild. The women just got back from a retreat and they were really fired up. The praise session went on so long they skipped the sermon. It was like James Brown's church in the "Blues Brothers" but add to the arm waving and wild dancing up and down the aisles - LOUD and STEADY howling.
For a while I just stood there staring like an anthropolgist but when the band dropped the playlist and went into hardcore Gospel my toes started tappn' and my hands started clappn'. It was a blast.
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TheEvan
Here's the perspective from the viewpoint of the UPC:
Hope this pastes in an intelligible manner. On edit, no it didn't. Let's see if'n I can fix it.
CHARISMATIC - CLASSICAL
Experience in Spirit is Criteria Doctrine of Scripture is Criteria
Focus on Spirit - Focus on Christ
Lauds Gifts of Spirit - Lauds Fruit of Spirit
Strives For Power - Strives For Purity that brings Power
Tongues optional at Baptism in Spirit - Tongues necessary for Baptism
Holiness mocked, ignored - Holiness sought, desired
Justification emphasized to downplay sin - Sanctification sought to deal with sin
Frivolous, light - Serious, intense
Boasts of Anointing - Emphases on Consecration
Syncretizes with world - Separates from world
Personality showcased - Character mandated
Talent lauded - Dedication commended
Control of the Spirit - Controlled by the Spirit
Faith is a Force to Move God - Faith is Obedience to Will of God
New Twist to Selected portions of Scriptures- Literal Interpretation of the Whole of
Visual- Auditory
Congregation consists of spectators- Congregation consists of participators
Find the Formula- Find the Will of God
Praise, Praise, Praise- Pray, Pray, then Praise
Seeks the novel- Seeks the old paths
Seeks New (Novel) Thing- Seeks New (Fresh) Thing
Forget principle, love people- Uphold principles while loving people
Put on Production- Wait on Moving of Spirit
I use God - God uses me
Cutting Edge - Restorationist
Naturally, it's a pejorative view of the Charismatics. I'll add that the Charismatic movement springs from mainstream denominations. Pentecostalism springs out of the turn-of-the-century Pentecostal & Holiness movements. Those Holiness roots show up repeatedly in the above list.
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