They probably think that you are not spiritually mature enough to handle any information. It seems that many years ago that is how they handled any question that they didn't want to answer.
or
Maybe they know it is all screwed up but they don't want to admit this to anyone. They are too filled with fear to leave. Either way it is truly sad. :(
SAMI..welcome the cafe! Yeh...they've got much to hide & not enough sand to stick their heads in far enough...Funny how easy it is to hide behind "biblical research" title eh?
Yep...The "secrecy thing"...I can see how twi probably rationalizes this whole thing...
Let's imagine a top twi leader addressing a large group of wayfers, concerning the "secrecy thing"...
"Allright people, it's time to be vigilant. Our adversary, the great accuser, is putting forth a fullscale attack against God's true ministry...attacking us through accusations!...asking questions that minister strife!...twisting words and twisting meanings!...DON'T OPEN YOUR MIND to these devil spirits...you know what you've been taught, you know the present truth! Don't allow these accusers to defame the ministry that taught you God's word! IGNORE THEM...DO NOT ANSWER QUESTIONS!...Once you begin a dialogue with these devil spirits, you will become POSSESSED!...If you are approached by them, REFUSE to answer their questions, don't let them trick you..."
Is that about right? B)
One of the more serious problems with twi group think, is that it feeds upon itself. The "closed society" and the authoritarian power structure almost guarantees an end result of "homogenized regurgitation"...you know, it's when everbody thinks and speaks the same thing because somebody else told them what to think and what to say...and the poor sap who gets swept away in this, ends up with his individuality severly impaired and his self potential emasculated. Looking at the world through twi tinted glasses, promises a pretend world that is full of intrigue and paranoia.
second..... sounds about right groucho... makes me sad. its really too too bad. i always thought blood was thicker than water -------> guess i was wrong.
when my mother chose to leave, my family also ended ties with me. i have since gotten an appology, but it is all to bad and sad. we have been in contact again recently (after 8 years) and all i wanted was a few answers. guess im not gonna get that.
i highly doubt they will ever get out. they really truly believe that the WAY is EVERYTHING.
i have decieded to keep in touch with them, but guess i wont waste anymore breath on asking any questions...... its soooooo stupid <_< :unsure:
LOL DMILLER !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YOUR PROBABLY RIGHT! :huh: :huh: :huh:
sami...Take heart, while I was in twi, I turned away from my family also...after I left twi, I realized how much my family really meant to me...in other words, blood IS thicker than water...somewhere, deep inside them, those feelings of blood family still reside. They are dormant, that's all...the potential for those feelings to awaken again are always there.
David & Sami (da Hot momma),..can you just picture them with both feet in their mouth & their head stuck in the sand..? Sounds pretty straightforward to me....not!! LOL
As a now-former follower of TWI (my wife and I just notified them yesterday), I can honestly say that those innies are not answering your questions because they probablly DON'T know. I didn't know at all about the second lawsuit, or the gross accusations within both, until a couple of weeks ago. When I asked friends and family if they'd heard anything, they didn't know either. We'd all been involved faithfully for years (my wife and I were both raised in the word - myself a third generation believer). We didn't know about the settlements, the press conferences, the newspaper articles, these websites... anything.
I presented it my wife, and at first she really didn't want to believe any of it either. At first, didn't believe that Rivenbark knew about the affairs, or that she possibly facilitated the activities. Had a harder time believing that other trustees were involved. And the hardest part to take were the accusations against VPW - whether sexual allegations or evidence of plagarism. My own parents, who haven't been involved actively since before I took PFAL also have trouble believing them. I myself grew up around the Wierwille family, all of his children and grandchildren. It was very hard for me to believe it all. It took a lot of reading and deliberation to absorb and understand how it could be true. For my wfie and I, it took talking to dear friends (ex-leadership who had been M&Aed for leaving after the scandal broke), to help it really sink in. We loved the Word and the ministry so much, that we truly believed we were part of the household and the only one's with such an understanding of the word. When they told us the adversary was attacking God's Word and trying to destroy the ministry (as they've said for years, we believed it with all of our hearts. With our understanding of the adversary (a word I just realized that sounds to Way-like now), this made complete sense. So even once we started to believe all the evidence, we still really wondered "what if it really is all a campaign by the adversary." It was even more difficult since we never experience some of the same out-and-out abuse as is commonly read about. Same with our family and friends. We believed that Craig had affairs; he admitted to that. But the Way said one thing, and the plaintiff's another. Who do you believe, with all of our background and beliefs. It took us some time and a lot of mental energy and anguish.
And to a general believer, for the past five years, we really haven't seen a lot of the obvious problems. No face meltings, no mark and avoids, no prying into the finances (although the no-debt policy is still in place). Not as much pressure to go to everything. For some who don't know the depth of the problem, it's an easy conclusion that the ministry has gotten better and is correcting error.
But it's not. The same people are in power now as then. They're just laying low. With such low numbers, they can't just M&A as before. With lawsuits over ABS money, you can't hound people for money as easily. The only thing you hear in most teachings now is "household" and "speak the word."
So anyway, most people don't know. Some don't believe. Some people will just need time. Others won't get it. Having been involved yourself, I'm sure you can see where some people might be having problems. The manipulation of TWI is clever, crafty, camoflauged and runs very deep.
Thank God that I realized this now. I wish I had the sense to get out in 2000 when I found out and was so angered, but TWI was very good at covering it with their now-obvious tactics. I'm thankful that I stumbled onto this site when I did, and found old friends to help me through it.
Sami, I assumed that you were once involved in TWI, but realized you don't actually state that. One of my comments assumed that, but if not, I hope maybe my post makes clear some of their lack of answers.
You know what, that sounds REALLY great to hear! I've been lurking on the boards for a couple/few weeks now, and I appreciate the reception dm!
Nato -- it felt equally good to say it! :D
It took a lot of courage after much soul searching to do what you did. To shed that many years of indoctrination, family ties, etc., couldn't have been done lightly, so for that I salute you and your wife.
Welcome to the rest of your life. Now you can smell the roses. :)
P.S. I am worried more the answers TWI won't question.
This bothers me as well.
A couple nights ago I read some scriptures on my own, objectively, and without the filter of TWI. I also read "Christians Should Be Prosperous" and actually challenged it by going to the Bible where he quotes a line of scripture, and reading the surrounding verses. It was the first time in a long time that I felt was learning something.
You ARE among friends here and it's good to have you aboard!
Funny how they conveniently forget to tell people about these things, isn't it? In my area they DID tell us about the 2nd lawsuit, but they only read information about both of them to us and would not let anyone have any actual copies of anything. I suppose they figured if we didn't have it in front of us then we wouldn't be able to question what and how much they were telling us, much less be able to read it for ourselves to figure out how involved Donna, Rosie, Ramona and others actually were with making it "available" for craig to rape these women.
I actually asked about Donna and Craig's marriage a few times and each time was told that it was none of my business. :blink: :huh: These people paraded their family around as the perfect Christian family and the prototype we were all coerced into following and yet now that they have been exposed it's none of my business??? :unsure: Uh, not so!
There's a ton of information here, as you've already discovered. I also highly recommend reading "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse" and Steve Hassan's "Releasing the Bonds: Enabling People to Think for Themselves". Those books were extremely invaluable to me before and after I left TWI. I think you and your wife would benefit from seeing what a true loving relationship with God should be and how a true pastor of God's flock should treat them and protect them.
i am so very glad that you chose to leave NATO! !! ! ! !! have you been to the chat room yet? it is a fun place to laugh, and chat. yes, i was in TWI. i grew up in it. and there were MANY MANY MANY MANY times that i didnt understand things and thought that things just werent "right" but i was a child and you know how that goes. <_< my family members have lived with both mrs. wirewille and don and wanda. also they have been back room for martindale. they know...... one thing they have said to me " i will not belive any of the "dirt" that i hear about this wonderful minstry that i stand with " they know.... but they are stuck. my fathers WHOLE family is involved. they cant leave. at least that is how they feel. its all really too badd and really sad. im so happy for you that your eyes were opened and have decieded to leave, and i am so glad that you have your wifes support and she is chosing to leave as well. :D :D :D the grease spot is a wonderful place.....im sure you will enjoy it. :)
Thank again to everyone for your support and kind words!
sami, I wonder if I know any of your family. My grandmother worked on staff and lived in the Wierwille home for years. I stayed there just about every summer while I was in high school, working volunteer staff. If you care to talk about it, perhaps we can continue that discussion via private message.
Belle, I'd love a Danish. As long as they were prepared with the "love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation in the household". :) My friends recommended the The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse also so I'll defnitely pick it up, along with Releasing the Bonds.
It is crushing to realise that all we believed the ministry was .... was a deception.....we were so pure in our hearts and commitment, we never dreamed that those in charge in the ministry were not as earnest.
I applaud you leaving with your head high and dignity intact....for that is the only thing one with integrety and character can do when faced with the reality of twi.
Be prepared to see the *foot off the hose* so to speak....all of the blessings and joys that God has been wanting to give you but has not been permitted.....I know, it sounds wierd.....but you will see.
I don`t know anybody once experienceing the exhilleeration of freedom and breathing of fresh air outside of twi that would willingly return .....
It kind of takes the *goodness* out of the kinder gentler ministry when you know that all of the policies that have been suspended, all of the m&a stopped, the cruel treatment hidden....simply because they are in so much legal hot water that they are doing it to save their skins....
The bot knew about lcm for FIVE years...knew that he was requiring participation or m&a ing the pretty corpes gals....they KNEW about it but didn`t lift a finger untill they were required legally.
They are just as rotten and corrupt as they ever were....they just have to cease now that the focus of their illegal activities had been exposed....
Isn`t it a bite that our hard earned abs is/has been used for years to pay millions to their attornies and settle law suits?
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gladtobeout
They probably think that you are not spiritually mature enough to handle any information. It seems that many years ago that is how they handled any question that they didn't want to answer.
or
Maybe they know it is all screwed up but they don't want to admit this to anyone. They are too filled with fear to leave. Either way it is truly sad. :(
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Second James
SAMI..welcome the cafe! Yeh...they've got much to hide & not enough sand to stick their heads in far enough...Funny how easy it is to hide behind "biblical research" title eh?
You REALLY a Hot momma????????LOL
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GrouchoMarxJr
Yep...The "secrecy thing"...I can see how twi probably rationalizes this whole thing...
Let's imagine a top twi leader addressing a large group of wayfers, concerning the "secrecy thing"...
"Allright people, it's time to be vigilant. Our adversary, the great accuser, is putting forth a fullscale attack against God's true ministry...attacking us through accusations!...asking questions that minister strife!...twisting words and twisting meanings!...DON'T OPEN YOUR MIND to these devil spirits...you know what you've been taught, you know the present truth! Don't allow these accusers to defame the ministry that taught you God's word! IGNORE THEM...DO NOT ANSWER QUESTIONS!...Once you begin a dialogue with these devil spirits, you will become POSSESSED!...If you are approached by them, REFUSE to answer their questions, don't let them trick you..."
Is that about right? B)
One of the more serious problems with twi group think, is that it feeds upon itself. The "closed society" and the authoritarian power structure almost guarantees an end result of "homogenized regurgitation"...you know, it's when everbody thinks and speaks the same thing because somebody else told them what to think and what to say...and the poor sap who gets swept away in this, ends up with his individuality severly impaired and his self potential emasculated. Looking at the world through twi tinted glasses, promises a pretend world that is full of intrigue and paranoia.
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dmiller
They can't answer cause they've already got both feet in their mouths. No room for anything else if they were to try to answer your questions! :lol:
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s a m i
first..... yes james im a hot momma! !! !! :P
second..... sounds about right groucho... makes me sad. its really too too bad. i always thought blood was thicker than water -------> guess i was wrong.
when my mother chose to leave, my family also ended ties with me. i have since gotten an appology, but it is all to bad and sad. we have been in contact again recently (after 8 years) and all i wanted was a few answers. guess im not gonna get that.
i highly doubt they will ever get out. they really truly believe that the WAY is EVERYTHING.
i have decieded to keep in touch with them, but guess i wont waste anymore breath on asking any questions...... its soooooo stupid <_< :unsure:
LOL DMILLER !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YOUR PROBABLY RIGHT! :huh: :huh: :huh:
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GrouchoMarxJr
sami...Take heart, while I was in twi, I turned away from my family also...after I left twi, I realized how much my family really meant to me...in other words, blood IS thicker than water...somewhere, deep inside them, those feelings of blood family still reside. They are dormant, that's all...the potential for those feelings to awaken again are always there.
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Second James
David & Sami (da Hot momma),..can you just picture them with both feet in their mouth & their head stuck in the sand..? Sounds pretty straightforward to me....not!! LOL
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Ham
Well.. the secret to their success is the secrecy of their moves.. or something like that..
Just SLOWLY move the dear little mushrooms to market in a nice dark trailer.. don't want to bother them or anything..
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Radar OReilly
As any good..........attorney, counselor, preacher or teacher knows...........
Never ask a question that you do not know the answer to............
Just one more thing that makes you want to say....................
hmmmmmmmmmmm
ror
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Nato
As a now-former follower of TWI (my wife and I just notified them yesterday), I can honestly say that those innies are not answering your questions because they probablly DON'T know. I didn't know at all about the second lawsuit, or the gross accusations within both, until a couple of weeks ago. When I asked friends and family if they'd heard anything, they didn't know either. We'd all been involved faithfully for years (my wife and I were both raised in the word - myself a third generation believer). We didn't know about the settlements, the press conferences, the newspaper articles, these websites... anything.
I presented it my wife, and at first she really didn't want to believe any of it either. At first, didn't believe that Rivenbark knew about the affairs, or that she possibly facilitated the activities. Had a harder time believing that other trustees were involved. And the hardest part to take were the accusations against VPW - whether sexual allegations or evidence of plagarism. My own parents, who haven't been involved actively since before I took PFAL also have trouble believing them. I myself grew up around the Wierwille family, all of his children and grandchildren. It was very hard for me to believe it all. It took a lot of reading and deliberation to absorb and understand how it could be true. For my wfie and I, it took talking to dear friends (ex-leadership who had been M&Aed for leaving after the scandal broke), to help it really sink in. We loved the Word and the ministry so much, that we truly believed we were part of the household and the only one's with such an understanding of the word. When they told us the adversary was attacking God's Word and trying to destroy the ministry (as they've said for years, we believed it with all of our hearts. With our understanding of the adversary (a word I just realized that sounds to Way-like now), this made complete sense. So even once we started to believe all the evidence, we still really wondered "what if it really is all a campaign by the adversary." It was even more difficult since we never experience some of the same out-and-out abuse as is commonly read about. Same with our family and friends. We believed that Craig had affairs; he admitted to that. But the Way said one thing, and the plaintiff's another. Who do you believe, with all of our background and beliefs. It took us some time and a lot of mental energy and anguish.
And to a general believer, for the past five years, we really haven't seen a lot of the obvious problems. No face meltings, no mark and avoids, no prying into the finances (although the no-debt policy is still in place). Not as much pressure to go to everything. For some who don't know the depth of the problem, it's an easy conclusion that the ministry has gotten better and is correcting error.
But it's not. The same people are in power now as then. They're just laying low. With such low numbers, they can't just M&A as before. With lawsuits over ABS money, you can't hound people for money as easily. The only thing you hear in most teachings now is "household" and "speak the word."
So anyway, most people don't know. Some don't believe. Some people will just need time. Others won't get it. Having been involved yourself, I'm sure you can see where some people might be having problems. The manipulation of TWI is clever, crafty, camoflauged and runs very deep.
Thank God that I realized this now. I wish I had the sense to get out in 2000 when I found out and was so angered, but TWI was very good at covering it with their now-obvious tactics. I'm thankful that I stumbled onto this site when I did, and found old friends to help me through it.
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Nato
Sami, I assumed that you were once involved in TWI, but realized you don't actually state that. One of my comments assumed that, but if not, I hope maybe my post makes clear some of their lack of answers.
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dmiller
Nato -- Congratulations!!! B)
And welcome to Greasespot! :)
David
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Nato
You know what, that sounds REALLY great to hear! I've been lurking on the boards for a couple/few weeks now, and I appreciate the reception dm!
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dmiller
Nato -- it felt equally good to say it! :D
It took a lot of courage after much soul searching to do what you did. To shed that many years of indoctrination, family ties, etc., couldn't have been done lightly, so for that I salute you and your wife.
Welcome to the rest of your life. Now you can smell the roses. :)
David
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GrouchoMarxJr
Nato...Glad to have you aboard! When I read your post, my eyes welled up with tears...
We all know exactly how you feel...you're among friends here. Welcome!
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def59
Nato
Welcome aboard.
GSC is a great place for healing.
I will pray for you and your wife as God leads you to wholness.
Def.
P.S. I am worried more the answers TWI won't question.
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Nato
Thank you def!
This bothers me as well.
A couple nights ago I read some scriptures on my own, objectively, and without the filter of TWI. I also read "Christians Should Be Prosperous" and actually challenged it by going to the Bible where he quotes a line of scripture, and reading the surrounding verses. It was the first time in a long time that I felt was learning something.
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Belle
Allow me to add my welcome too, Nato! :D
You ARE among friends here and it's good to have you aboard!
Funny how they conveniently forget to tell people about these things, isn't it? In my area they DID tell us about the 2nd lawsuit, but they only read information about both of them to us and would not let anyone have any actual copies of anything. I suppose they figured if we didn't have it in front of us then we wouldn't be able to question what and how much they were telling us, much less be able to read it for ourselves to figure out how involved Donna, Rosie, Ramona and others actually were with making it "available" for craig to rape these women.
I actually asked about Donna and Craig's marriage a few times and each time was told that it was none of my business. :blink: :huh: These people paraded their family around as the perfect Christian family and the prototype we were all coerced into following and yet now that they have been exposed it's none of my business??? :unsure: Uh, not so!
There's a ton of information here, as you've already discovered. I also highly recommend reading "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse" and Steve Hassan's "Releasing the Bonds: Enabling People to Think for Themselves". Those books were extremely invaluable to me before and after I left TWI. I think you and your wife would benefit from seeing what a true loving relationship with God should be and how a true pastor of God's flock should treat them and protect them.
Danish?
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s a m i
i am so very glad that you chose to leave NATO! !! ! ! !! have you been to the chat room yet? it is a fun place to laugh, and chat. yes, i was in TWI. i grew up in it. and there were MANY MANY MANY MANY times that i didnt understand things and thought that things just werent "right" but i was a child and you know how that goes. <_< my family members have lived with both mrs. wirewille and don and wanda. also they have been back room for martindale. they know...... one thing they have said to me " i will not belive any of the "dirt" that i hear about this wonderful minstry that i stand with " they know.... but they are stuck. my fathers WHOLE family is involved. they cant leave. at least that is how they feel.
its all really too badd and really sad. im so happy for you that your eyes were opened and have decieded to leave, and i am so glad that you have your wifes support and she is chosing to leave as well. :D :D :D the grease spot is a wonderful place.....im sure you will enjoy it. :)
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Nato
Thank again to everyone for your support and kind words!
sami, I wonder if I know any of your family. My grandmother worked on staff and lived in the Wierwille home for years. I stayed there just about every summer while I was in high school, working volunteer staff. If you care to talk about it, perhaps we can continue that discussion via private message.
Belle, I'd love a Danish. As long as they were prepared with the "love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation in the household". :) My friends recommended the The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse also so I'll defnitely pick it up, along with Releasing the Bonds.
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templelady
NAto,
Sit back, relax, take one day at a time--
don't feel you have to unlearn or challenge all your ideas and beliefs at the same time.
Just savor the freedom you now possess,
WELCOME TO THE CAFE
:lol:
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rascal
Wow, Nato, welcome welcome!!!
It is crushing to realise that all we believed the ministry was .... was a deception.....we were so pure in our hearts and commitment, we never dreamed that those in charge in the ministry were not as earnest.
I applaud you leaving with your head high and dignity intact....for that is the only thing one with integrety and character can do when faced with the reality of twi.
Be prepared to see the *foot off the hose* so to speak....all of the blessings and joys that God has been wanting to give you but has not been permitted.....I know, it sounds wierd.....but you will see.
I don`t know anybody once experienceing the exhilleeration of freedom and breathing of fresh air outside of twi that would willingly return .....
It kind of takes the *goodness* out of the kinder gentler ministry when you know that all of the policies that have been suspended, all of the m&a stopped, the cruel treatment hidden....simply because they are in so much legal hot water that they are doing it to save their skins....
The bot knew about lcm for FIVE years...knew that he was requiring participation or m&a ing the pretty corpes gals....they KNEW about it but didn`t lift a finger untill they were required legally.
They are just as rotten and corrupt as they ever were....they just have to cease now that the focus of their illegal activities had been exposed....
Isn`t it a bite that our hard earned abs is/has been used for years to pay millions to their attornies and settle law suits?
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