"The other side of the Yitzak Rabin story is that Drosnin found a code that predicted the assassination of his successor, Netenyahu. As he did with Rabin, he took the information to Netenyahu, who claimed not to believe it. But he did alter his travel plans, postponing a trip to....Syria I think. Which may have saved his life."
My mind's still not completely made up about the Bible Code, but, based on the three books I've read, it could be geniune. The other side of the Yitzak Rabin story is that Drosnin found a code that predicted the assassination of his successor, Netenyahu. As he did with Rabin, he took the information to Netenyahu, who claimed not to believe it. But he did alter his travel plans, postponing a trip to....Syria I think. Which may have saved his life.
Or,
if true,
it may just have delayed the Syria trip.
I find the premise of the "secret and hidden messages" to be one of the siller Gnostic iterations
For those uninclined to follow the link I posted, here's the conclusion (courtesy "The Skeptic's Dictionary"):
"Mathematician David Thomas did an ELS (the supposed "code" Drosnin wrote about) on Genesis and found the words "code" and "bogus" close together not once but 60 times. What are the odds of that happening? Thomas also did an ELS analysis on Drosnin's Bible Code II: The Countdown (2002) and found the message "The Bible Code is a silly, dumb, fake, false, evil, nasty, dismal fraud and snake-oil hoax."* Does this mean that God put in a code to reveal that there is no code?"
Actually, I believe he did warn us, and in many ways, but as usual by 1980-82, we weren't paying much attention.
My dim memory has a lot of Saul references popping up in SNS tapes prior to Craig's installation, but I haven't had the time to check that record yet. I feel I don't a need to, though, because of all the other evidence I did find. If anyone is inclined to do this I have a very complete scripture index of all those tapes. My best recollection is that it was during those years that I first learned of Saul.
I do know from scripture that God warned, via Samuel, against the whole kingly thing, not just Saul but all kings. So we had some warning in the scriptures, and (I think) in SNS tapes, and maybe even Mag articles.
More warnings came at Craig's installation.
On that SNS tape Dr didn't install him as the spiritual leader, only as the leader of the 5-senses corporation, with the hope that Craig WOULD rise up... maybe.
He also made 6 or 7 warnings that unbelief was rampant then at Craig's installation.
He also included a note that Craig may need to be removed if he didn't rise up spiritually.
He also seemed to indicate that the choice for Craig was a 5-senses BOT decision, not revelation.
Then one month later, in his very next SNS after Craig's installation, Dr surely did teach on Saul.
Then, in one of his last SNS teachings Dr warned that the WOW Auditorium COULD someday soon, in five or ten years were his words, be closed to grads. He brought up the possibility the day before it opened, I think.
Then on his last trip to see Geer, Dr warned many people individually.
Dr's grand warning is embedded in the POP warned of the coming doom.
I have a thorough essay on why we can trust Geer to have gotten Dr's quotes right (and that's about all we can trust Geer on) that I posted on the latest Innie website that's now gone. I saved the files though and can re-post them if anyone wants.
Dr also warned about Geer WITHIN the POP. Geer didn't get it and dutifully echoed these interesting words.
Dr also warned about Geer in his very last recorded words, at the end of "The Joy of Serving," his last/lost teaching.
People are as willing to jump on the bandwagon and vigorously deprogram themselves en masse, as they were to take PFAL and jump on that bandwagon.
Okay Mike, Mr. Wierwille did give some loose warnings. What I mean by "loose warning" is where VPW said something like, this could happen if, or unless he rises up, those type of warnings anyone can make.
God clearly told Samuel that certain things would absolutely happen. Thats the type of warning I'm talking about. But irrigardless, TWI was and is not a kingdom, and VPW/Martindale were not kings.
TWI was supposed to be a Christian organization, a part(s) of the body of Christ who is the king. But what were we taught by TWI about Jesus Christ? that he was absent! Which is NOT true.
Jesus Christ is the head of the body, he is King. He is not absent!
On a previous post I said it's possible Wiewille received revelation at some point in his life, and I mean that, but I doubt it applies to the decision of installing Martindale. Okay, you say the decision wasn't by revealtion that he was installed by a vote of the BOT's. But VPW was supposed to be the MOG and claimed he heard from God everyday, yet wouldn't God have told him not to install Martindale?
Mike, I know you sincerly believe VPW was the MOG, but even Mr. Wierwille taught sincerity is no guarantee for truth.
Sincerity is a good thing, but not good enough to guarantee truth. It is good enough to help (among other factors) drive a person to the truth. The only way to get a guarantee for truth is directly from the Father. I sincerly seek His approval, and not men's.
Most people find comfort in tradition to guarantee "their truth." If enough people, for a long enough time, believe something then it SEEMS safe. What's YOUR guarantee for truth?
***
I don't know if it was revelation or not for Craig to be king. I do know God preferred that Israel NOT have a king, and ditto for us. God rarely gets His way with people's cooperation, so He uses plan B.
It looks from the tape that maybe it was a BOT decision. I don't know for sure. I do know that God held his nose and had Saul anointed, and then later had to abandon him. It looks like that's what happened with Craig, revelation or not.
***
We were NOT taught in the books (or in the film class) that Jesus Christ is absent from US.
He went absent from the physical realm at the Ascension, but became MORE present to US via the spiritual realm.
What you THINK Dr taught about the absent Christ is wrong. You are thinking of the TVTs, which were woefully in error.
This is what I've often posted, and I have posted page references. I will give you this information in PMs if you want to see it. I don't want to waste any more of my time in this thread, though.
A lot of the "keys to biblical research" that Wierwille, and indeed even Bullinger, taught, were just another type of bible code.
Very often you couldn't just read the narrative, or the epistle in order; no, you had to skip around and make it "fit". Interpretation was based on things like "number in scripture", which was speculative at best and the supposed structure of a section.
Why would a god, who 'would have all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth' make those same men jump through hoops within hoops to get that same truth?
if someone could produce a documented account of someone intending to board one of those four planes, being told by God not to, and attempting to warn the airlines or the government of the hijackings. A documented account of someone intending to go to the WTC or the Pentagon, being told by God not to, and trying to warn the airlines or the government would do just as well.
LG, I hate to say this, but in most cases, revelation is not likely to be documented. Even the records in the Bible are recorded after the fact, or when they did try an warn people they were often written off as kooks. It wouldn't surprise me if something like that might have happened on 9/11. Shoot! even though I believe in revelation, if I worked at a boarding gate and someone had said they had heard from God and this plane should be stopped from flying, I would likely think the person some kind of a nut. (I have heard of a case where this reportedly happened and the person was written off as a kook...That is until the landing failed on at take off and the plane wrecked. No one was killed, but several were injured.) Since you did disclose that you don't believe in a personal God I can see why you would want this kind of proof, but you're not likely to find it.
I'm sorry I had forgotten about this, but I have witnessed an incident that fits LG's criteria. Back in 1996, I was working in outside sales at WTCR, a country radio station located in Cattlettsburg, KY. One summer afternoon, word reached us that there had been a tragic fire across the river in South Point at a popular fireworks retailer. Everyone was shocked, but noone more so than our sedretary, Robin. The station's general manager had called her early that morning and told her she had dreamt that there would be a terrible fire at that particular fireworks store that and made her promise not to let her children go. Robin's kids had been planning to do that that very day. She didn't believe the story, but had worked with her for years, and yielded to her impassioned plea to forbid the kids from going. Just as the GM had predicted, the place caught fire that afternoon, and several people were killed. If not for the prophetic warning form her boss, Robin's kids would have been among the victims.
Since you did disclose that you don't believe in a personal God I can see why you would want this kind of proof, but you're not likely to find it.
At this point, that's the level I'd require to even bother delving into a reported incident. It would take more to convince me. I realize (at least I presume) that neither you nor Jerry are trying to convince me. Nor am I trying to dissuade you from your beliefs.
But doesn't this reflect also one of the more profound enigmas of Christianity?
Its scriptures proudly proclaim it the religion
of lowlifes and losers
and scumbags and perverts
of murderers and sluts
and liars and fools
of dimwits, morons and dingbats.
(Hey, as Ted would croon - That's "God's Way People")
Didn't God choose these to confound the Wise, the Scribe?
No one would choose this human garbage in a million years -
but the Supreme God did.
The healthy have no need of the physician.
Jesus didn't come for the pious, the righteous -
He preferred the aforementioned "sinners",
the filthy rejects, the weasles, and offscouring of the world.
The folks He picked for disciples were a thick-headed, dark-hearted, dumb-foot lot.
One disciple denied Him, another even betrayed Him.
Even while He was on earth, and long after His "Resurrection" the disciples
were (still) bickering in rivalry amongst themselves and their respective movements.
Why the hell did Jesus pick such a bunch of losers?
Yet they did spread His message, despite themselves, and despite their perversions made to His Gospel, often made for their own glory and profit.
Think about it - the epistles that comprise a hefty portion of the NT
are attributed to one who took particular pleasure
in persecuting this new cult and (some say) murdering its members,
prior to falling off his horse and bumping his head on a rock on that fateful, gravelly road
to Damascus (according to the "Acts" legend).
It's one of the enigmas of Christianity, Groucho.
Danny
danny, i don't know what to make of this. i don't mean to say i'm better than wierwille at all. i fit the above description. i'm sure veepee has every right to be chosen of god / christ as anyone else. but what about the leadership or shepherd part of it ? don't you think that plays into it ?
i didn't read the rest of the whole thread. i got revelation that i shouldn't
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
Was this something you also heard recounted directly by Robin herself?
It's a cool story.
Danny
Yes, that very day. I came back to the office that afternoon and Robin was still stunned by the whole thing and told me about it. It shook the whole staff, especially me, since I, being a PFAL grad naturally thought myself to be the most spiritually "tuned-in" person on the premises. I wasn't, the GM was. She was just a regular Church going Christian, but she was--is--gifted with unshakable faith in God and herself and does at times have prophetic dreams. This one saved Robin's kids.
danny, i don't know what to make of this. i don't mean to say i'm better than wierwille at all. i fit the above description. i'm sure veepee has every right to be chosen of god / christ as anyone else. but what about the leadership or shepherd part of it ? don't you think that plays into it ?
i didn't read the rest of the whole thread. i got revelation that i shouldn't
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
Excy - what I failed to mention was the "rest of the story" or illustration...when people were given a second chance in becoming Christians they were expected to become better people, to "put off" the old man with all his works of the flesh and put on the new man, created in the image of Christ, that they might imitate Christ.
It was not expected that people continue using their lives and limbs as the "instruments of sin". But to treat one another as Jesus would have us treat one another, with genuine love and compassion. We might consider in this light John ch.8, where with the woman caught in adultery, Jesus forgives the woman of her sins and tells her to "go, and sin no more".
Wierwille and his so-called "leadership" obviously got everything backwards; for all their lip service about "renewing" their minds, their cruel actions demonstrated a move in the opposite direction; they evidently had forgotten the fact that Paul had been a murderer before his conversion - not afterwards.
Had Wierwille lived in the first couple centuries and conducted himself within a church in the inexcusable manner as he had done so in the 20th, they would purged out this filthy fornicator, and might have even delivered him to Satan for the destruction of the flesh (1 Cor.5).
It's kind of ironic to consider that Wierwille would not have lasted two minutes in a church he claimed to recreate.
I'de also like to add my further thoughts to the previous post, that I don't exempt myself from the mass of "loser" and "lowlife" humanity (lol), of which condition one seems to simply enter by virtue of being born a member of the human race, according to many Christian theologies.
Hell, if I had been born during the first century, I'de have probably been left outside the hut for the wolves to devour, by reason of my physical abnormality, oft viewed as a bad omen during that savage era.
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George Aar
"The other side of the Yitzak Rabin story is that Drosnin found a code that predicted the assassination of his successor, Netenyahu. As he did with Rabin, he took the information to Netenyahu, who claimed not to believe it. But he did alter his travel plans, postponing a trip to....Syria I think. Which may have saved his life."
Well, then the prophecy
wasn't correct, was it?
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WordWolf
Or,
if true,
it may just have delayed the Syria trip.
I find the premise of the "secret and hidden messages" to be one of the siller Gnostic iterations
to come down the pike this century.
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George Aar
For those uninclined to follow the link I posted, here's the conclusion (courtesy "The Skeptic's Dictionary"):
"Mathematician David Thomas did an ELS (the supposed "code" Drosnin wrote about) on Genesis and found the words "code" and "bogus" close together not once but 60 times. What are the odds of that happening? Thomas also did an ELS analysis on Drosnin's Bible Code II: The Countdown (2002) and found the message "The Bible Code is a silly, dumb, fake, false, evil, nasty, dismal fraud and snake-oil hoax."* Does this mean that God put in a code to reveal that there is no code?"
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dmiller
--C-
BOGUS
--D-
--E-
Geez, almost makes a cross! Spooky! :o
heh heh heh! :D
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Outin88.
Okay Mike, Mr. Wierwille did give some loose warnings. What I mean by "loose warning" is where VPW said something like, this could happen if, or unless he rises up, those type of warnings anyone can make.
God clearly told Samuel that certain things would absolutely happen. Thats the type of warning I'm talking about. But irrigardless, TWI was and is not a kingdom, and VPW/Martindale were not kings.
TWI was supposed to be a Christian organization, a part(s) of the body of Christ who is the king. But what were we taught by TWI about Jesus Christ? that he was absent!
Which is NOT true.
Jesus Christ is the head of the body, he is King. He is not absent!
On a previous post I said it's possible Wiewille received revelation at some point in his life, and I mean that, but I doubt it applies to the decision of installing Martindale. Okay, you say the decision wasn't by revealtion that he was installed by a vote of the BOT's. But VPW was supposed to be the MOG and claimed he heard from God everyday, yet wouldn't God have told him not to install Martindale?
Mike, I know you sincerly believe VPW was the MOG, but even Mr. Wierwille taught sincerity is no guarantee for truth.
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Mike
Outin88,
Sincerity is a good thing, but not good enough to guarantee truth. It is good enough to help (among other factors) drive a person to the truth. The only way to get a guarantee for truth is directly from the Father. I sincerly seek His approval, and not men's.
Most people find comfort in tradition to guarantee "their truth." If enough people, for a long enough time, believe something then it SEEMS safe. What's YOUR guarantee for truth?
***
I don't know if it was revelation or not for Craig to be king. I do know God preferred that Israel NOT have a king, and ditto for us. God rarely gets His way with people's cooperation, so He uses plan B.
It looks from the tape that maybe it was a BOT decision. I don't know for sure. I do know that God held his nose and had Saul anointed, and then later had to abandon him. It looks like that's what happened with Craig, revelation or not.
***
We were NOT taught in the books (or in the film class) that Jesus Christ is absent from US.
He went absent from the physical realm at the Ascension, but became MORE present to US via the spiritual realm.
What you THINK Dr taught about the absent Christ is wrong. You are thinking of the TVTs, which were woefully in error.
This is what I've often posted, and I have posted page references. I will give you this information in PMs if you want to see it. I don't want to waste any more of my time in this thread, though.
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Oakspear
A lot of the "keys to biblical research" that Wierwille, and indeed even Bullinger, taught, were just another type of bible code.
Very often you couldn't just read the narrative, or the epistle in order; no, you had to skip around and make it "fit". Interpretation was based on things like "number in scripture", which was speculative at best and the supposed structure of a section.
Why would a god, who 'would have all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth' make those same men jump through hoops within hoops to get that same truth?
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Keith
LG, I hate to say this, but in most cases, revelation is not likely to be documented. Even the records in the Bible are recorded after the fact, or when they did try an warn people they were often written off as kooks. It wouldn't surprise me if something like that might have happened on 9/11. Shoot! even though I believe in revelation, if I worked at a boarding gate and someone had said they had heard from God and this plane should be stopped from flying, I would likely think the person some kind of a nut. (I have heard of a case where this reportedly happened and the person was written off as a kook...That is until the landing failed on at take off and the plane wrecked. No one was killed, but several were injured.) Since you did disclose that you don't believe in a personal God I can see why you would want this kind of proof, but you're not likely to find it.
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Jbarrax
I'm sorry I had forgotten about this, but I have witnessed an incident that fits LG's criteria. Back in 1996, I was working in outside sales at WTCR, a country radio station located in Cattlettsburg, KY. One summer afternoon, word reached us that there had been a tragic fire across the river in South Point at a popular fireworks retailer. Everyone was shocked, but noone more so than our sedretary, Robin. The station's general manager had called her early that morning and told her she had dreamt that there would be a terrible fire at that particular fireworks store that and made her promise not to let her children go. Robin's kids had been planning to do that that very day. She didn't believe the story, but had worked with her for years, and yielded to her impassioned plea to forbid the kids from going. Just as the GM had predicted, the place caught fire that afternoon, and several people were killed. If not for the prophetic warning form her boss, Robin's kids would have been among the victims.
The fire is a matter of public recorod. Anyone who worked at WTCR at the time can attest to the truth of what happened. Here's a follow-up article about the incident. and here's a raw newsfeed posted the day of the fire.
Peace
JerryB
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TheInvisibleDan
Was this something you also heard recounted directly by Robin herself?
It's a cool story.
Danny
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LG
At this point, that's the level I'd require to even bother delving into a reported incident. It would take more to convince me. I realize (at least I presume) that neither you nor Jerry are trying to convince me. Nor am I trying to dissuade you from your beliefs.
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excathedra
i didn't read the rest of the whole thread. i got revelation that i shouldn't
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
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Jbarrax
Yes, that very day. I came back to the office that afternoon and Robin was still stunned by the whole thing and told me about it. It shook the whole staff, especially me, since I, being a PFAL grad naturally thought myself to be the most spiritually "tuned-in" person on the premises. I wasn't, the GM was. She was just a regular Church going Christian, but she was--is--gifted with unshakable faith in God and herself and does at times have prophetic dreams. This one saved Robin's kids.
Peace
JerryB
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TheInvisibleDan
Excy - what I failed to mention was the "rest of the story" or illustration...when people were given a second chance in becoming Christians they were expected to become better people, to "put off" the old man with all his works of the flesh and put on the new man, created in the image of Christ, that they might imitate Christ.
It was not expected that people continue using their lives and limbs as the "instruments of sin". But to treat one another as Jesus would have us treat one another, with genuine love and compassion. We might consider in this light John ch.8, where with the woman caught in adultery, Jesus forgives the woman of her sins and tells her to "go, and sin no more".
Wierwille and his so-called "leadership" obviously got everything backwards; for all their lip service about "renewing" their minds, their cruel actions demonstrated a move in the opposite direction; they evidently had forgotten the fact that Paul had been a murderer before his conversion - not afterwards.
Had Wierwille lived in the first couple centuries and conducted himself within a church in the inexcusable manner as he had done so in the 20th, they would purged out this filthy fornicator, and might have even delivered him to Satan for the destruction of the flesh (1 Cor.5).
It's kind of ironic to consider that Wierwille would not have lasted two minutes in a church he claimed to recreate.
:blink:
Danny
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TheInvisibleDan
I'de also like to add my further thoughts to the previous post, that I don't exempt myself from the mass of "loser" and "lowlife" humanity (lol), of which condition one seems to simply enter by virtue of being born a member of the human race, according to many Christian theologies.
Hell, if I had been born during the first century, I'de have probably been left outside the hut for the wolves to devour, by reason of my physical abnormality, oft viewed as a bad omen during that savage era.
Danny
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excathedra
thanks danny, you're really wonderful
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