"Personally, I question whether Wierwille ever got revelation from the God and Father of Jesus Christ. Though it's possible."
I personally believe he did.
Not because I believe he was anything special or anything like that at all. To the contrary, he highly blew it in many ways. Just that twi was once a great place to be and many folks needed it at the time. The sweet fellowships; joy and peace with God; comfort in knowing God is alive and loves you always; an ever abiding assurance that the bible makes sense and has authority and reliability; knowing that you know you are God's son, sealed with holy spirit; etc. etc.
These happenings are the fruit of a godly connection.
They are the manifestation of God being at work in and with people.
While I agree that there were some sweet fellowships, and some accurate Bible taught in TWI, I believe it was God that made it happen in spite of Mr. Wierwille!
I'll bet there were folks involved with Jim Jones that said similar things before they drank the cool aid!
Sorry Oldies, I'm still questioning!
By the way, regarding Wierwilles heavy revy on his selection of Martindale, you used Saul as an example, but if you read I Samuel chapter 8, you'll see where God had Samuel warn the Israelites about the bad things their king would do. I don't recall any such warning regarding Martindale.
I guess I'm trying to draw a distinction between the genuine experience of God speaking to a person's heart and the flim flam artists who are shaking people down for money and lying in the name of God...
...and I don't presume to understand WHY God does what He does...and doesn't do what He doesn't do...
It just chaps my a$$ when I see so many people getting sucked in to these religious sideshows, putting their faith in other people and end up being "spiritually exploited".
Sure, I understand what you're saying oldies...Martindale was given the chance to fail...and he did it splendedly. I seem to recall Wierwille paining over the decision as to who to select...or at least he pretended to be. He seemed uncertain about the whole thing...In my opinion, Veepee didn't even know where the cookie jar WAS...
I often wondered why he didn't choose John Lynn. (of course Oldiesman and the Weirwillites will say because he was following revelation). But from a standpoint of leadership ability, I think JAL had as much if not more than Craig. And JAL was involved in the ministry before Craig, if I remember correctly. Started all the outreach in Virginia I think. So he was a proven evangelist, a capable leader, and had tons of charisma. Of course, he, by his own admission, was involved in the adultery too, so perhaps the end result would have been the same, but I don't see how he could have done worse.
Why didn't he get the salt & mantle treatment?
Any of you old Corps folk have any insight on this?
I've been thinking and praying on my previous posts regarding Mr. Wierwille and if he ever received revelation. I'll say that it's possible he had received revelation at times in his life, just as it is for all of us.
What came to mind was a story by LindaZ who mentioned, (and I'm recalling from memory here so feel free to correct me on details Linda), that she prayed for answers to learn about God, when a person witnessed to her, then the next day she saw him drunk off his @zz babling incoherently.
Even those that are out to lunch most of the time, if God wants to communicate with them, and they are willing to follow His directions, they can get revelation, at least I think it's possible.
The high priest of Israel who presided over Jesus crucifixion received rev and prohecied. Here are the verses;
John 11:49-52 (NIV)
"Then one of them, named Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, spoke up, 'You know nothing at all! 50You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish.'
51He did not say this on his own, but as high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the Jewish nation, 52and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God, to bring them together and make them one."
So even though Wierwille did a lot of bad stuff, and I still think he conned us at times, I'll say it's possible, that there were times that maybe he did get some rev from God.
That doesn't mean I don't question if he did or not, my point is that it's possible.
I often wondered why he didn't choose John Lynn. (of course Oldiesman and the Weirwillites will say because he was following revelation). But from a standpoint of leadership ability, I think JAL had as much if not more than Craig. And JAL was involved in the ministry before Craig, if I remember correctly. Started all the outreach in Virginia I think. So he was a proven evangelist, a capable leader, and had tons of charisma. Of course, he, by his own admission, was involved in the adultery too, so perhaps the end result would have been the same, but I don't see how he could have done worse.
Why didn't he get the salt & mantle treatment?
Any of you old Corps folk have any insight on this?
I heard Walter Cummins and Ralph D. were in the running more then jal.
But I seriously doubt it was any heavy revy involved in the decision.
The high priest of Israel who presided over Jesus crucifixion received rev and prohecied. Here is the verses;
John 11:49-52 (NIV)
"Then one of them, named Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, spoke up, 'You know nothing at all! 50You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish.'
51He did not say this on his own, but as high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the Jewish nation, 52and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God, to bring them together and make them one."
I've been thinking and praying on my previous posts regarding Mr. Wierwille and if he ever received revelation. I'll say that it's possible he had received revelation at times in his life, just as it is for all of us.
I'm extremely reluctant to get involved in another thread for many reasons, but here goes.
Outin88,
Yes, that IS very interesting what you just posted. To it can be added the revelation given to Baalam, as well as to David and Solomon.
We are stuck in time and see it one instance at a time. God sees the whole timeline at once. We think that if someone repents, then they can qualify for revelation, but God can see their FUTURE sins and still decides to give the revelations. God's ways are not our ways. The revelation is not a reward for being good, but light that men disparately need. God saw David's sin before he did it, yet gave him revelation. God saw Solomon's sin ahead of time yet still gave him wisdom and knowledge in abundance.
***
Earlier in this thread you wrote: "By the way, regarding Wierwilles heavy revy on his selection of Martindale, you used Saul as an example, but if you read I Samuel chapter 8, you'll see where God had Samuel warn the Israelites about the bad things their king would do. I don't recall any such warning regarding Martindale."
I'm just wondering how hard you tried to recall any such warning. Without beeing TOO facetious, may I ask you did you sit up straight and push your short term memory button, or did you heave-ho hard with your long term memory crank? Or did you merely spit out your latest emotional feelings on the subject? Please forgive my harsh tone. I'm not in a good mood.
I feel all three methods above to be inadequate if accuracy is the goal. I check the record.
Actually, I believe he did warn us, and in many ways, but as usual by 1980-82, we weren't paying much attention.
My dim memory has a lot of Saul references popping up in SNS tapes prior to Craig's installation, but I haven't had the time to check that record yet. I feel I don't a need to, though, because of all the other evidence I did find. If anyone is inclined to do this I have a very complete scripture index of all those tapes. My best recollection is that it was during those years that I first learned of Saul.
I do know from scripture that God warned, via Samuel, against the whole kingly thing, not just Saul but all kings. So we had some warning in the scriptures, and (I think) in SNS tapes, and maybe even Mag articles.
More warnings came at Craig's installation.
On that SNS tape Dr didn't install him as the spiritual leader, only as the leader of the 5-senses corporation, with the hope that Craig WOULD rise up... maybe.
He also made 6 or 7 warnings that unbelief was rampant then at Craig's installation.
He also included a note that Craig may need to be removed if he didn't rise up spiritually.
He also seemed to indicate that the choice for Craig was a 5-senses BOT decision, not revelation.
Then one month later, in his very next SNS after Craig's installation, Dr surely did teach on Saul.
Then, in one of his last SNS teachings Dr warned that the WOW Auditorium COULD someday soon, in five or ten years were his words, be closed to grads. He brought up the possibility the day before it opened, I think.
Then on his last trip to see Geer, Dr warned many people individually.
Dr's grand warning is embedded in the POP warned of the coming doom.
I have a thorough essay on why we can trust Geer to have gotten Dr's quotes right (and that's about all we can trust Geer on) that I posted on the latest Innie website that's now gone. I saved the files though and can re-post them if anyone wants.
Dr also warned about Geer WITHIN the POP. Geer didn't get it and dutifully echoed these interesting words.
Dr also warned about Geer in his very last recorded words, at the end of "The Joy of Serving," his last/lost teaching.
Outin88, I seem to detect a note of objectivity still left in you, so this might not apply to you as much as to others. I'm getting more and more frazzled with posting to people who are so far gone they can't even hear it. There's just so much information lacking in those who think they are being thorough. No one seems willing to go back and look. Everyone seems to be totally satisfied with inaccurate, partial, and fading memories, and are willingly altering their own memory and impressions on a daily basis.
I always wondered how could the first century church have POSSIBLY fallen from such a high and mighty position, but no more.
People are as willing to jump on the bandwagon and vigorously deprogram themselves en masse, as they were to take PFAL and jump on that bandwagon.
I am inspired to set forth the Word of the Lowered. He who hath eyes (and the requisite elementary education) to read, let him read. He who giveth not a damn about what I write, let him continue giving not a damn. Or let him be inspired to give many damns. I give not a chit.
Having possibly offended several people with that prologue, I will now likely offend a few more, though giving offense is not my intent.
Why no forwarnings about these events?
I do not think anyone has the complete answer yet.
Translation: I’m not about to consider the possibility that the people (most of whom I don’t even know existed) upon whose words my entire belief system is based were frauds.
Try to look at the big picture here. This question transcends twi. Why NOBODY gets warned about these fatal events ...
Bible says they will happen, and that's about all we humans have right now ...
Bible says that Noah was warned about big flood. Bible says that Joseph was warned about big famine. Bible says lots of things. People who claim to receive revelation from God say lots of things. Big picture is that anything can be “foretold” after it happens or in a fictional story, but there is a curious lack of evidence of any documented foretelling of known events before they happened that resulted in actions to prevent calamity.
I know a few people who were "supposed to be" at the World Trade Center that fateful day.
For some reason (God's voice) they didn't go.
I know many people who were “supposed” to be various places at various times. On any given day, whether “fateful” or not, in a building with many thousands of workers and several thousand visitors each day, there will be hundreds, if not thousands, who were “supposed” to be there at a particular time but weren’t, for some reason or another.
Now, I feel that many were God's children that perished that day, but how many of them were "listening".
Apparently, the assumption is that of the “many [who] were God’s children that perished that day,” none were “listening.”
As for the preachers, well, they would have to be "prophets", and most probably aren't . Fruit . Look at the fruit.
Unless they can save the EVERYBODY in the situation (and most wouldn' t believe them in the first place), then why bother.
Of course, that doesn’t apply to those you knew who “for some reason (God’s voice) … didn’t go.”
Someone mentioned revelation about 9/11. I can't speak for the TWI and its leaders, but there are many accounts regarding people who worked at the towers and felt uneasy about going to work that day and didn't. Others who have said that God told them not to go to work because there was danger.
Many people feel uneasy about going to work every day, don’t go, and nothing spectacular happens. Many other people feel uneasy about going to work every day, but go anyway, and nothing spectacular happens. But since nothing spectacular happens, they don’t bother giving accounts of their uneasy feelings.
In the interest of full disclosure, I’ll say that I don’t even believe in a personal God, much less in the revelation that people like to think they get, and that charlatans love to claim that they get. I’d give the notion some more consideration if someone could produce a documented account of someone intending to board one of those four planes, being told by God not to, and attempting to warn the airlines or the government of the hijackings. A documented account of someone intending to go to the WTC or the Pentagon, being told by God not to, and trying to warn the airlines or the government would do just as well.
I often wondered why he didn't choose John Lynn. (of course Oldiesman and the Weirwillites will say because he was following revelation). But from a standpoint of leadership ability, I think JAL had as much if not more than Craig. And JAL was involved in the ministry before Craig, if I remember correctly. Started all the outreach in Virginia I think. So he was a proven evangelist, a capable leader, and had tons of charisma. Of course, he, by his own admission, was involved in the adultery too, so perhaps the end result would have been the same, but I don't see how he could have done worse.
Why didn't he get the salt & mantle treatment?
Any of you old Corps folk have any insight on this?
Previous discussions on this included one poster who went up and ASKED vpw why he chose
lcm.
vpw's response was that lcm was loyal, never argued with him, always followed orders.
I felt this
A) cut thru all the guesswork as to "did this come from God?"
B) showed how shallow the selection process was.
I mean, out of all the criteria he could have mentioned, that was the one least
If Dr had said it was by revelation you'd have a problem with THAT TOO.
People forget that the BOT voted on these things.
I have posted the transcript, and linked to it here, that indicates it was NOT by revelation.
The whole situation with Saul indicates that the whole annointed kingly thing was outside God's will. God reluctantly chose him because the people insisted. I remember the consensus at HQ was for Craig in the late 70's as the idea of Dr's successor came up every now and then.
Since by 1982 all of top leadership was opearating by the senses God's hands were relatively tied anyway.
If Dr had said it was by revelation you'd have a problem with THAT TOO.
Actually,
if he had picked a good candidate,
and claimed it was for blind loyalty,
I would have had the SAME problem with it I have now.
I consider that an improper criteria.
If he had picked a good candidate,
and claimed it was by revelation,
I probably would have had NO PROBLEM with that.
That's a proper method, and proper results suggest it was actually followed.
If he had picked a bad candidate (lcm),
and claimed it was by revelation,
then, yes, I would have had a problem with that.
Evidence would have supported the position that the choosing was NOT by revelation.
(Else it would have WORKED.)
People forget that the BOT voted on these things.
I have posted the transcript, and linked to it here, that indicates it was NOT by revelation.
You've claimed many things and the transcripts haven't borne them out.
Please link to the post which supposedly claims the BOT got together and voted on this.
The whole situation with Saul indicates that the whole annointed kingly thing was outside God's will. God reluctantly chose him because the people insisted. I remember the consensus at HQ was for Craig in the late 70's as the idea of Dr's successor came up every now and then.
You weren't around HQ enough to know what the scuttlebutt was.
If HCW said that was the scuttlebutt, I'd say that carried weight.
Since by 1982 all of top leadership was opearating by the senses God's hands were relatively tied anyway.
So,
all of the leaders trained by vpw,
and chosen as leaders by vpw,
were all no good-in your opinion-
by 1982.
Also in your opinion, this has NOTHING to do with the man who trained them,
chose them out,
and who they believed was THE man of God, whom they followed blindly.
I am inspired to set forth the Word of the Lowered. He who hath eyes (and the requisite elementary education) to read, let him read. He who giveth not a damn about what I write, let him continue giving not a damn. Or let him be inspired to give many damns. I give not a chit.
Having possibly offended several people with that prologue, I will now likely offend a few more, though giving offense is not my intent.
Many people feel uneasy about going to work every day, don’t go, and nothing spectacular happens. Many other people feel uneasy about going to work every day, but go anyway, and nothing spectacular happens. But since nothing spectacular happens, they don’t bother giving accounts of their uneasy feelings.
In the interest of full disclosure, I’ll say that I don’t even believe in a personal God, much less in the revelation that people like to think they get, and that charlatans love to claim that they get. I’d give the notion some more consideration if someone could produce a documented account of someone intending to board one of those four planes, being told by God not to, and attempting to warn the airlines or the government of the hijackings. A documented account of someone intending to go to the WTC or the Pentagon, being told by God not to, and trying to warn the airlines or the government would do just as well.
How about a documented account of someone seeing a prophecy encoded in the Old Testament and trying to warn a head of state. Said head of state ignored the warning and was assassinated. After the event, the person who carried the warning found more details in the encoded Scritpure including the name of the assassin. When the person who saw this code found another one predicting the assassination of slain head of state's successor, he warned him as well. The successor changed his plans and is still alive.
Technically, it's not "revelation", but it's a case of someone carrying a prophetic message from God and it fits all of your other criteria.
Some of you know what I'm talking about. No spoilers please. :-)
Peace
JerryB
Previous discussions on this included one poster who went up and ASKED vpw why he chose
lcm.
vpw's response was that lcm was loyal, never argued with him, always followed orders.
I felt this
A) cut thru all the guesswork as to "did this come from God?"
B) showed how shallow the selection process was.
I mean, out of all the criteria he could have mentioned, that was the one least
noble, imho.
Wow. talk about cronyism. I would have figured that leadership qualitications had at least something to do with it. Maybe what he really meant was, 'Of all the spiritually gifted, salt of the earth natural leaders I have to choose from, Craig is the most loyal, etc. ' I know this shounds pitifully naieve, especially from me, but I find it hard to believe VP would be that cynical about such a big decision.
Maybe he figured it was going to go down the crapper no matter who took over so he might as well give the job to someone who'd earned a favor.
Ya know...what comes to my simple mind while reading this thread is/was all the emphasis put on the 9 manifestations in PFAL & the other classes..The whole idea was for "us" to rise up in our so called believing & get to the point, while faithfully SITing & all the rest, that we daily or whenever receive revelation...SITing for me is/was as easy as falling off a log & revelation...now is it to be THAT easy as well? Same with healing..same with discerning of spirits..???? So if VP is asking for & receivng heavy revy on the successors choice..to me then..(l982) it would have just been the most natural thing for him to utilize & quite frankly I didn't see it as some "big deal"..after all VP was the motivator in "us" "climbing towards revelation in our lives on a daily basis.
I actually heard Mr Wierwille state that " a day doesn't go by that God doesn't give me revelation"
Well, seeing he didn't seem to give him revalation about anything important, maybe God was telling him where he left the bottle of drambuie when he got drunk the night before... B)
How about a documented account of someone seeing a prophecy encoded in the Old Testament and trying to warn a head of state. Said head of state ignored the warning and was assassinated. After the event, the person who carried the warning found more details in the encoded Scritpure including the name of the assassin. When the person who saw this code found another one predicting the assassination of slain head of state's successor, he warned him as well. The successor changed his plans and is still alive.
Technically, it's not "revelation", but it's a case of someone carrying a prophetic message from God and it fits all of your other criteria.
Some of you know what I'm talking about. No spoilers please. :-)
That "no spoilers" line is strange. If you're not going to say what the heck you're talking about, then why even mention it?
...And on it goes...I was driving down the street and suddenly I had the "thought" to turn left at the intersection...there it was...a parking space! No doubt, revelation!
It's impossible to verify true revelation...If the circumstances seem to fit, maybe it is...but then again, even a blind hog finds an acorn once in awhile...
...It just gets to me how these religious clowns are always running their mouths, as if they "know" something the rest of us don't know...bunk.
That "no spoilers" line is strange. If you're not going to say what the heck you're talking about, then why even mention it?
I'm a strange person. :-)
Actually, I did that to give myself time to find a quotable, linkable, online reference to what I'm referring to. I read about it in a famous book, but don't have a copy of it onhand, so I can't quote it. I'm looking for a link at the moment......
Here we go. Click here for a summary of the story. It involves a prediction of the assassination of Yitzak Rabin that was found encoded in the Torah.
I just *cannot* believe that you used The Bible Code as an example of solid prophecy. Heck man, why don't you use the New York Times crossword puzzle? That's basically how the Bible Code uses the Bible -- a freekin' crossword puzzle used for interpretation.
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Outin88.
"Personally, I question whether Wierwille ever got revelation from the God and Father of Jesus Christ. Though it's possible."
While I agree that there were some sweet fellowships, and some accurate Bible taught in TWI, I believe it was God that made it happen in spite of Mr. Wierwille!
I'll bet there were folks involved with Jim Jones that said similar things before they drank the cool aid!
Sorry Oldies, I'm still questioning!
By the way, regarding Wierwilles heavy revy on his selection of Martindale, you used Saul as an example, but if you read I Samuel chapter 8, you'll see where God had Samuel warn the Israelites about the bad things their king would do. I don't recall any such warning regarding Martindale.
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GrouchoMarxJr
...and I DO believe that God "speaks" to us...
I guess I'm trying to draw a distinction between the genuine experience of God speaking to a person's heart and the flim flam artists who are shaking people down for money and lying in the name of God...
...and I don't presume to understand WHY God does what He does...and doesn't do what He doesn't do...
It just chaps my a$$ when I see so many people getting sucked in to these religious sideshows, putting their faith in other people and end up being "spiritually exploited".
Sure, I understand what you're saying oldies...Martindale was given the chance to fail...and he did it splendedly. I seem to recall Wierwille paining over the decision as to who to select...or at least he pretended to be. He seemed uncertain about the whole thing...In my opinion, Veepee didn't even know where the cookie jar WAS...
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Jbarrax
I often wondered why he didn't choose John Lynn. (of course Oldiesman and the Weirwillites will say because he was following revelation). But from a standpoint of leadership ability, I think JAL had as much if not more than Craig. And JAL was involved in the ministry before Craig, if I remember correctly. Started all the outreach in Virginia I think. So he was a proven evangelist, a capable leader, and had tons of charisma. Of course, he, by his own admission, was involved in the adultery too, so perhaps the end result would have been the same, but I don't see how he could have done worse.
Why didn't he get the salt & mantle treatment?
Any of you old Corps folk have any insight on this?
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Outin88.
I've been thinking and praying on my previous posts regarding Mr. Wierwille and if he ever received revelation. I'll say that it's possible he had received revelation at times in his life, just as it is for all of us.
What came to mind was a story by LindaZ who mentioned, (and I'm recalling from memory here so feel free to correct me on details Linda), that she prayed for answers to learn about God, when a person witnessed to her, then the next day she saw him drunk off his @zz babling incoherently.
Even those that are out to lunch most of the time, if God wants to communicate with them, and they are willing to follow His directions, they can get revelation, at least I think it's possible.
The high priest of Israel who presided over Jesus crucifixion received rev and prohecied. Here are the verses;
John 11:49-52 (NIV)
"Then one of them, named Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, spoke up, 'You know nothing at all! 50You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish.'
51He did not say this on his own, but as high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the Jewish nation, 52and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God, to bring them together and make them one."
So even though Wierwille did a lot of bad stuff, and I still think he conned us at times, I'll say it's possible, that there were times that maybe he did get some rev from God.
That doesn't mean I don't question if he did or not, my point is that it's possible.
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Outin88.
I heard Walter Cummins and Ralph D. were in the running more then jal.
But I seriously doubt it was any heavy revy involved in the decision.
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TheInvisibleDan
Outin88 -
That's a very interesting reference.
Danny
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oldiesman
B)
B)
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Mike
I'm extremely reluctant to get involved in another thread for many reasons, but here goes.
Outin88,
Yes, that IS very interesting what you just posted. To it can be added the revelation given to Baalam, as well as to David and Solomon.
We are stuck in time and see it one instance at a time. God sees the whole timeline at once. We think that if someone repents, then they can qualify for revelation, but God can see their FUTURE sins and still decides to give the revelations. God's ways are not our ways. The revelation is not a reward for being good, but light that men disparately need. God saw David's sin before he did it, yet gave him revelation. God saw Solomon's sin ahead of time yet still gave him wisdom and knowledge in abundance.
***
Earlier in this thread you wrote: "By the way, regarding Wierwilles heavy revy on his selection of Martindale, you used Saul as an example, but if you read I Samuel chapter 8, you'll see where God had Samuel warn the Israelites about the bad things their king would do. I don't recall any such warning regarding Martindale."
I'm just wondering how hard you tried to recall any such warning. Without beeing TOO facetious, may I ask you did you sit up straight and push your short term memory button, or did you heave-ho hard with your long term memory crank? Or did you merely spit out your latest emotional feelings on the subject? Please forgive my harsh tone. I'm not in a good mood.
I feel all three methods above to be inadequate if accuracy is the goal. I check the record.
Actually, I believe he did warn us, and in many ways, but as usual by 1980-82, we weren't paying much attention.
My dim memory has a lot of Saul references popping up in SNS tapes prior to Craig's installation, but I haven't had the time to check that record yet. I feel I don't a need to, though, because of all the other evidence I did find. If anyone is inclined to do this I have a very complete scripture index of all those tapes. My best recollection is that it was during those years that I first learned of Saul.
I do know from scripture that God warned, via Samuel, against the whole kingly thing, not just Saul but all kings. So we had some warning in the scriptures, and (I think) in SNS tapes, and maybe even Mag articles.
More warnings came at Craig's installation.
On that SNS tape Dr didn't install him as the spiritual leader, only as the leader of the 5-senses corporation, with the hope that Craig WOULD rise up... maybe.
He also made 6 or 7 warnings that unbelief was rampant then at Craig's installation.
He also included a note that Craig may need to be removed if he didn't rise up spiritually.
He also seemed to indicate that the choice for Craig was a 5-senses BOT decision, not revelation.
All of this information was posted in a thread I did here that survived the pruning of several not long ago, here: http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...1&st=&p=entry
Then one month later, in his very next SNS after Craig's installation, Dr surely did teach on Saul.
Then, in one of his last SNS teachings Dr warned that the WOW Auditorium COULD someday soon, in five or ten years were his words, be closed to grads. He brought up the possibility the day before it opened, I think.
Then on his last trip to see Geer, Dr warned many people individually.
Dr's grand warning is embedded in the POP warned of the coming doom.
I have a thorough essay on why we can trust Geer to have gotten Dr's quotes right (and that's about all we can trust Geer on) that I posted on the latest Innie website that's now gone. I saved the files though and can re-post them if anyone wants.
Dr also warned about Geer WITHIN the POP. Geer didn't get it and dutifully echoed these interesting words.
Dr also warned about Geer in his very last recorded words, at the end of "The Joy of Serving," his last/lost teaching.
Outin88, I seem to detect a note of objectivity still left in you, so this might not apply to you as much as to others. I'm getting more and more frazzled with posting to people who are so far gone they can't even hear it. There's just so much information lacking in those who think they are being thorough. No one seems willing to go back and look. Everyone seems to be totally satisfied with inaccurate, partial, and fading memories, and are willingly altering their own memory and impressions on a daily basis.
I always wondered how could the first century church have POSSIBLY fallen from such a high and mighty position, but no more.
People are as willing to jump on the bandwagon and vigorously deprogram themselves en masse, as they were to take PFAL and jump on that bandwagon.
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LG
I am inspired to set forth the Word of the Lowered. He who hath eyes (and the requisite elementary education) to read, let him read. He who giveth not a damn about what I write, let him continue giving not a damn. Or let him be inspired to give many damns. I give not a chit.
Having possibly offended several people with that prologue, I will now likely offend a few more, though giving offense is not my intent.
Translation: I’m not about to consider the possibility that the people (most of whom I don’t even know existed) upon whose words my entire belief system is based were frauds.
Bible says that Noah was warned about big flood. Bible says that Joseph was warned about big famine. Bible says lots of things. People who claim to receive revelation from God say lots of things. Big picture is that anything can be “foretold” after it happens or in a fictional story, but there is a curious lack of evidence of any documented foretelling of known events before they happened that resulted in actions to prevent calamity.
I know many people who were “supposed” to be various places at various times. On any given day, whether “fateful” or not, in a building with many thousands of workers and several thousand visitors each day, there will be hundreds, if not thousands, who were “supposed” to be there at a particular time but weren’t, for some reason or another.
Apparently, the assumption is that of the “many [who] were God’s children that perished that day,” none were “listening.”Of course, that doesn’t apply to those you knew who “for some reason (God’s voice) … didn’t go.”
Many people feel uneasy about going to work every day, don’t go, and nothing spectacular happens. Many other people feel uneasy about going to work every day, but go anyway, and nothing spectacular happens. But since nothing spectacular happens, they don’t bother giving accounts of their uneasy feelings.
In the interest of full disclosure, I’ll say that I don’t even believe in a personal God, much less in the revelation that people like to think they get, and that charlatans love to claim that they get. I’d give the notion some more consideration if someone could produce a documented account of someone intending to board one of those four planes, being told by God not to, and attempting to warn the airlines or the government of the hijackings. A documented account of someone intending to go to the WTC or the Pentagon, being told by God not to, and trying to warn the airlines or the government would do just as well.
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Outin88.
Mike,
Ah nevermind, I'm too tired toinight.
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Mike
Outtie,
I know the feeling well.
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WordWolf
Previous discussions on this included one poster who went up and ASKED vpw why he chose
lcm.
vpw's response was that lcm was loyal, never argued with him, always followed orders.
I felt this
A) cut thru all the guesswork as to "did this come from God?"
B) showed how shallow the selection process was.
I mean, out of all the criteria he could have mentioned, that was the one least
noble, imho.
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Mike
If Dr had said it was by revelation you'd have a problem with THAT TOO.
People forget that the BOT voted on these things.
I have posted the transcript, and linked to it here, that indicates it was NOT by revelation.
The whole situation with Saul indicates that the whole annointed kingly thing was outside God's will. God reluctantly chose him because the people insisted. I remember the consensus at HQ was for Craig in the late 70's as the idea of Dr's successor came up every now and then.
Since by 1982 all of top leadership was opearating by the senses God's hands were relatively tied anyway.
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WordWolf
Actually,
if he had picked a good candidate,
and claimed it was for blind loyalty,
I would have had the SAME problem with it I have now.
I consider that an improper criteria.
If he had picked a good candidate,
and claimed it was by revelation,
I probably would have had NO PROBLEM with that.
That's a proper method, and proper results suggest it was actually followed.
If he had picked a bad candidate (lcm),
and claimed it was by revelation,
then, yes, I would have had a problem with that.
Evidence would have supported the position that the choosing was NOT by revelation.
(Else it would have WORKED.)
You've claimed many things and the transcripts haven't borne them out.Please link to the post which supposedly claims the BOT got together and voted on this.
You weren't around HQ enough to know what the scuttlebutt was.
If HCW said that was the scuttlebutt, I'd say that carried weight.
So,
all of the leaders trained by vpw,
and chosen as leaders by vpw,
were all no good-in your opinion-
by 1982.
Also in your opinion, this has NOTHING to do with the man who trained them,
chose them out,
and who they believed was THE man of God, whom they followed blindly.
Others may disagree.
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TheInvisibleDan
In retrospect, lcm was an excellent choice.
Thank goodness vp did at least one thing right in picking lcm.
How many among us might still have been with that stupid organisation today
if he hadn't?
Sitting through "PFAL" for about the 5,000th time, feeding upon the same sub-standard
garbage we mistook for "research"...
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Jbarrax
How about a documented account of someone seeing a prophecy encoded in the Old Testament and trying to warn a head of state. Said head of state ignored the warning and was assassinated. After the event, the person who carried the warning found more details in the encoded Scritpure including the name of the assassin. When the person who saw this code found another one predicting the assassination of slain head of state's successor, he warned him as well. The successor changed his plans and is still alive.
Technically, it's not "revelation", but it's a case of someone carrying a prophetic message from God and it fits all of your other criteria.
Some of you know what I'm talking about. No spoilers please. :-)
Peace
JerryB
Wow. talk about cronyism. I would have figured that leadership qualitications had at least something to do with it. Maybe what he really meant was, 'Of all the spiritually gifted, salt of the earth natural leaders I have to choose from, Craig is the most loyal, etc. ' I know this shounds pitifully naieve, especially from me, but I find it hard to believe VP would be that cynical about such a big decision.
Maybe he figured it was going to go down the crapper no matter who took over so he might as well give the job to someone who'd earned a favor.
Peace
JerryB
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Second James
Ya know...what comes to my simple mind while reading this thread is/was all the emphasis put on the 9 manifestations in PFAL & the other classes..The whole idea was for "us" to rise up in our so called believing & get to the point, while faithfully SITing & all the rest, that we daily or whenever receive revelation...SITing for me is/was as easy as falling off a log & revelation...now is it to be THAT easy as well? Same with healing..same with discerning of spirits..???? So if VP is asking for & receivng heavy revy on the successors choice..to me then..(l982) it would have just been the most natural thing for him to utilize & quite frankly I didn't see it as some "big deal"..after all VP was the motivator in "us" "climbing towards revelation in our lives on a daily basis.
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GrouchoMarxJr
I actually heard Mr Wierwille state that " a day doesn't go by that God doesn't give me revelation"
Well, seeing he didn't seem to give him revalation about anything important, maybe God was telling him where he left the bottle of drambuie when he got drunk the night before... B)
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LG
That "no spoilers" line is strange. If you're not going to say what the heck you're talking about, then why even mention it?
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GrouchoMarxJr
...And on it goes...I was driving down the street and suddenly I had the "thought" to turn left at the intersection...there it was...a parking space! No doubt, revelation!
It's impossible to verify true revelation...If the circumstances seem to fit, maybe it is...but then again, even a blind hog finds an acorn once in awhile...
...It just gets to me how these religious clowns are always running their mouths, as if they "know" something the rest of us don't know...bunk.
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Jbarrax
I'm a strange person. :-)
Actually, I did that to give myself time to find a quotable, linkable, online reference to what I'm referring to. I read about it in a famous book, but don't have a copy of it onhand, so I can't quote it. I'm looking for a link at the moment......
Here we go. Click here for a summary of the story. It involves a prediction of the assassination of Yitzak Rabin that was found encoded in the Torah.
Jerry the Strange
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George Aar
Jerry,
You might want to take a look at this - somewhat more skeptical - review of Drosnin's work:
http://skepdic.com/bibcode.html
I particularly liked the predictions they garnered from "Moby Dick" and the further Biblical analysis at the end of the article.
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LG
No, Jerry, that's not even close.
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GarthP2000
Jerry,
I just *cannot* believe that you used The Bible Code as an example of solid prophecy. Heck man, why don't you use the New York Times crossword puzzle? That's basically how the Bible Code uses the Bible -- a freekin' crossword puzzle used for interpretation.
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