Why is it that all of humanity (the descendants of Adam and Eve) are/should be 'born dead in trespasses and sins' and 'at enmity with God' based on JUST the actions of Adam and Eve? Ie., its just a curse actually, and with no good reason for why it must go beyond Adam and Eve and on to their descendants.
You ever notice that no real solid explanation has ever been given for why that is so, and why that must be, hmmmm? At least from what I've learned over the years. Usually what I've been given is one of those "its one of those 'spurchel' concepts that is beyond your understanding, so you have no place to question it" variety scam answers. And one that I have accepted for many a year, ... until recently.
Yes its a leap of Faith and I been thinking about it alot too but I can only share what I see so far
Adam and Eve were created in the image of God and when they listern to the fleshly side or the image of soul life from a animal image
Their image was changed from the image of God to the image of flesh
Flesh begins to die little by little until it dies once the seed is planted
So Adam and Eve cause all their children to be born with a dead spirit UNTIl
Yes I said until but until what when Christ won over dead giving Mankind the seed of Christ
Yes I believe what Christ did planted a spiritual seed in all because he died for all
But if a water not water it will not grow and it must be in good ground or water by the words of God and a good heart the heart being the ground or dirt
I do think as the devil as a spiritual but a animal that happen to live in the heavens the one call great whales that flys in the waters which are above the firmament in the heavens
birds fly above the earth and live on the earth while they may fly over water but they do not live in the water
And good is water without life to keep it in balance
or angel food corn like plants that live in the water which are above the firmament in the heavens to give off oxgen and animal life to give off carbon dixiode
No man did it too theirself just like if you drive into a wall who torn up your car you did why their may been a reason you did it you were still driven
Adam ate and God told him he could but if he did he would die maybe the woman trick Adam and the devil trick Eve it still does not change the fact that Adam ate and after he ate it was too late not to eat
Ok I hope this helps but here a little more
I believe when Christ rose that planted the seed of Christ in us and this seed is like a baby in his or her mother's womb but for us in the womb of God
With care from God the seed will not grow or its up to the person to eat or not
So its up to the person to let the seed grow and become his or her image or they can keep the old image of flesh
When we die that our birth of spirit I believe
Some will have a alive birth but others will have a dead birth
A very dear friend of mine (RockandRollGoddess) from another board wrote this regarding another discussion we were having and I think it's pertinent here:
i think in my searching i have found a number of important things out.
we all crave spirit-=-why? because its programmed into us as something important
Fits ESPECIALLY if we are born spiritual beings as well, no? :)
we all move totally away from what we are about during our life--and that brings us adversity--why? because how can you know what you are unless you taste what you are not...
we all have a need to be right---and when we let go of that need--we are free...
we all fear the loss of love--and in that fear, we reject unconditional love...
if we could work to get past that stuff--and realize our OWN divinity--we would all be free...
Certainty is all based on fear--you are opting out of your own power--you are giving it to someone else--its a master slave thing...
didnt jesus bow down and wash feet? he didnt ask for praise--didnt jesus say that not one fragment would be rejected? didnt jesus say--all this and more you can do if you just believe???
so much of what jesus said is about not being the "son of god" and definitely not asking for worship--but talking about--remembering the body.....we are all members...wanting to rejoin...
everything you need EVER is already inside of you....we just take a long time to really really realize that...and it can take many more than one life time to do it...
again--all in my most humble opinion....
We are part of one body and Ecclesiastes talks about our bodies returning to dust, breath life back into the air and the spirit to God for safe keeping. So......hmmmm......looks like there IS a spiritual side to man, even in the OT and Eccl doesn't mention any conditions on WHO gets that spirit or how. But that's about as far as I've thought about it. <_<
Of course, Ham, that also has to be based on the assumption that the Bible IS the God-breathed word and that there are no errors in it in any way, shape or form. It also assumes that the Bible is True and that Adam and Eve were real people. :) Just to give you more to chew on. :D
What if it's just a story? What if it was taken from another culture's explanation of the origin of man? You know a lot of OT stories exist in many other religions and cultures with too many similarities for them to not be the same story, just told with that particular religion / political agenda / spiritual message affecting the story? I didn't realize that until after getting out of TWI.
It could just be a form of religious or political propaganda to scare people into obeying what the leaders of the day told them God wanted them to do or to not do. *shrug* I dunno, though.... just a thought...
Interesting considering that scientists have stated that every human does indeed appear to have come from the original same set of parents..Adam and Eve ? and language experts have concluded that at one point there was ONE 'mother tongue.'
And your scientific and verifiable source(s) for this is ..... ?
And spare us the so-called Creationist 'authorities' like Kent Hovind please. It's folks like him that also give us the spew that light has been slowing down over the last 6000 years, thus making the stars look far older than they really are, ... and then try to palm off that stuff as 'genuine science'. :blink:
Some of us don't have a strong stomach for that sort of thing, thank you. :wacko:
Now for my 2 cents. Anyone ever consider the fact that Adam and Eve were told hands off the tree of knowledge of good and evil, but NOT the tree of life? The cherubims were sent after Mr and Mrs were thrown out to KEEP THE WAY OF THE TREE OF LIFE. Perhaps this is HOW they stayed alive? Once they were taken away from this life-giving source, of course they would die! It picks up in Rev. 22, but only talks about the leaves of the tree of life being for healing. Of course, if we are healed of every disease, what would kill us anyway?
Oh, dear, I forgot the question! :(
Oh, yes, is man born dead spiritually? A real can of worms there, pal. What about cultures where Jesus just isn't all that? Is it just the luck of the draw that we got born in America, while some other slob roams the caves thinking about how to blow us up?
What about Nicodemus? You must be born again? :blink:
By eating the "apple" Adam and Eve brought death to the world.
"The wages of sin is death"
We are all born to die, if you will, that we inherited from Adam and Eve--a sentence visited on the childrens children.
Everyone has spirit when they are born else they wouldn't be alive.
If you are talking about the Holy Spirit-and when Accountability sets in that is something dirfferent.
having to face death because of what happened in the Garden is not the same as having committed the Sin itself, hence no sin can be attributed at birth or in the early learning years.
Interesting question and one I have thought about. All I know, is that for some reason, mankind is a "fallen race." Yet, we all know it is available to be born again and God can commune with us - for me its a thought, an idea, an impression - whatever. But you also see God able to commune with animals (Balaam, the whale that swallowed Jonah, etc.). He can also commune with those who weren't "born again" - the King of Babylon comes to mind.
So, God can communicate with any man or woman (or animal) if he so chooses - one does not have to have spirit upon them or in them. So there must be something in man, in all men, that God can communicate with. But I believe that is different from the holy spirit also. Different types of communication. I do believe it was that spiritual connection that was lost to Adam - but that does not make one spiritually dead - I think that's wayspeak. More like, an avenue of communication was lost. Adam willfully gave to Satan, all of the authority and his headship and rulership of this world God had conferred upon him - his kingdom - to Satan, in exchange for the wonderful (in his eyes) knowledge Satan would teach him. Didn't Satan try the same thing with Jesus - worship me and I will give you... because it was given to me... Because Adam had done this of his free will, God couldn't take it back from Satan - all was Satan's now - including mankind. It is now his kingdom.
But, there must be something wonderfully inherent in mankind, for God to go to all the trouble to ransom us back from our fallen state - he didn't have to. He could have let mankind and earth wallow in misery and destruction and started over somewhere else. But, I know the Word says our life is hid in Christ, when Christ returns, our true life shall be revealed in us and to us. To me, our sojourn on earth is almost a shadow life, we will not know our true essence, or being, so to speak, until we are with him, and we shall share in his glory and spend an eternity in endless variety, and plumbing the depths of infinite love and knowledge.
I believe Adam was inserted into mankind, as was Christ, at a certain point in time. Adam's divine mission was to communicate and teach and show God to mankind, so God could dwell with mankind and love and fellowship with mankind - as he does with the angels, of whom mankind was made just a little lower than.
Satan was enraged this beautiful planet was made for man - this new creation of God, enraged puny mankind meant so much to God and he did whatever it took to wrest control of it from God. I believe the knowledge that he offered - "you shall be as gods" - was true spiritual knowledge - of an ungodly kind - but it must have been fascinatingly beautiful. We know Satan was the most beautiful of God's creation - he was an angel. I believe he showed Adam and Eve his full glory - it was probably mindboggling. They were told, they too could be as a "god." Thus, Adam and Eve desired this perfection, desired to know the secrets of this beautiful being, desired to be like him, and probably wondered why God himself was withholding this wonderful knowledge from them, and thus, took it upon themselves to "perfect" themselves. I think the moral is, once man decides to "perfect" himself without the true God, we fall. True perfection is looking at the true God and Christ - not delving into the great spiritual "knowledge" of Satan.
So, this rejection of the true God, the desire to "perfect" themselves with the "spiritual knowledge" of the false god, so they too could become "gods" somehow led to a fall. It was catastrophic to God - a total rejection of his love and knowledge.
The consequences of this rejection of God was that man's wonderful humanity, that essence God had in mind for him to manifest, could not come to fruition - thus, for now mankind is fallen.
templelady, I think you touched on what I believe is the heart of the matter with unregenerate man vs. one who is "born again".
To rephrase what you said, man became 'mortal' (born to die).
The problem with DerVeg's teaching is that, spiritually, unregenerate man is equivalent to animals. I have a problem with that, biblically & every other way. God clearly distinguished man from from the rest of the animal kingdom. Adam was made like God in more ways than in simply being immortal.
Anyway, when one is "born again", I believe the result is immortality (I Cor 15), not now of course, but when we are raised incorruptible.
The whole 'man had spirit and then lost it and regainde it' makes sense when you hear it in Piffle. But, honestly, how well supported is in the Bible? I do believe that God does send the spirit of His Son into our hearts. But this itself does not constitute a "new birth".
Paul never spoke of a new birth. Jesus did once and Peter did once.
The main way Paul speaks of such things is as "salvation" or "being saved". He consistently equated salvation with having our sins paid for and receiving the righteousness of God...legally and spiritually. To lump that in with terms like "born again" tends to muddy the waters in my book.
Matthew 18 :3" ...Verily I say into you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children. ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven"
MAtthew 19:14 "But Jesus said "suffer little children and forbid them not, to come unto me: for such is the kingdom of heaven.""
The idea that children are pure and innocent in the eyes of God is reiterated by Christ throughout the gospels (CHildren being people younger than the age of accountability.) Clearly then IMO, it is matter of the world's influence that causes sin in our lives and we are held accountable for our succumbing to THAT influence as opposed to the sins committed by Adam.
If Children stand pure and innocent they must have sprituality of some degree since only God, by definition , is pure and innocent. After the age of accountability we have a choice as to maintaining that state. Jesus Christ maintained that state throughout his life.
No, I don't believe that child are born dead, born in sin or born without any form of deity touching their lives.
I have come to the conclusion that the story of Adam and Eve is just that, a story, designed to give meaning to describe how life started, how man and woman started and how troubles came about in people's lives. I think it was meant to be an allegory to the people of the time just as the Pandora's Box story was not meant to be taken seriously as a reason for the bad in the world and not to be taken literally.
I have met all kinds of people, Christian and non Christian, those who believe in some type of higher power and those that don't believe at all and I will tell you that those who believe or those in believe in a Christian god do NOT have a spiritual/ethical/moral edge over anyone else. So born again, regenerated, enlightened and so forth makes no difference in the quality of the person at large, except maybe for those who put stock in such labeling of people.
People are people and you have the good, the bad and the ugly in all walks of belief or non belief. The seperating factor among all of them is the decisions they have made in how to live their lives and how they have decided to respond personally to adversity. It has nothing to do with a man and woman in a garden eating of fruit of a tree which was tempting to them, from a god whose own book says he doesn't tempt people and when a talking snake got a hold of them ...well. See my point?
So, God can communicate with any man or woman (or animal) if he so chooses - one does not have to have spirit upon them or in them. So there must be something in man, in all men, that God can communicate with
Very very good point. And I am beggining to agree more with this. How could he communicate with them, indeed.. and in da class, vic said: "God CANNOT communicate with the human, brain cells".."God can communicate only with what He is, which is, spirit"
If God only communicates through this supposed one genuine spiritual connection.. there is a lot of good stuff in the world that you have to explain away as counterfiet, of the devil, or some other way..
If Children stand pure and innocent they must have sprituality of some degree since only God, by definition , is pure and innocent
They... MUST. Says a lot.. and I would further add, they DO, until society and religion often beats it out of them.. Temple Lady, lest I be one to selectively quote you..I will say, yes, I'm at least considering the age of accountability factor as regards to this.. I'm just not entirely convinced though..
I will tell you that those who believe or those in believe in a Christian god do NOT have a spiritual/ethical/moral edge over anyone else
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GarthP2000
Good one Hammy.
Another related concept to question might be:
Why is it that all of humanity (the descendants of Adam and Eve) are/should be 'born dead in trespasses and sins' and 'at enmity with God' based on JUST the actions of Adam and Eve? Ie., its just a curse actually, and with no good reason for why it must go beyond Adam and Eve and on to their descendants.
You ever notice that no real solid explanation has ever been given for why that is so, and why that must be, hmmmm? At least from what I've learned over the years. Usually what I've been given is one of those "its one of those 'spurchel' concepts that is beyond your understanding, so you have no place to question it" variety scam answers. And one that I have accepted for many a year, ... until recently.
Do you think that these 2 questions are related?
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Ham
Yes, absolutely.. it is directly related. That was one of my other thoughts, but did not voice it yet..
In this thread, suggestions even remotely close to the subject are welcome.
Pretty broad subject, I think.
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CM
well... i'll take a shot at it...
when we are born we are just babies and with spirit or you wouldn't be alive
and we learn from things seen and heard in the visible and invisible
what we see hear and feel
things surrounding us and people
it's the unseen that is the tricky part
God, Spirit, that which is in us but not quite figured out
dead in tresapasses and sins
there are no trespasses and sins without knowing God
our parents are the gods of our lives, helping between right and wrong
then to learn of God and his desire for us
brings a new set of instructions from within where he resides
so we learn what sin is and that sin as paul put it
sin revived and i died
but thank God that through Jesus Christ we have been delivered from this
so we learn what he did and experience this cleansing one day
there is no set of rules to live by when living in and by the spirit
but all things are lawful for me but not expedient
expedient=doing the will of God/Christ/Spirit from within
a learning, a growing, just like from what we see
and it ain't hard-He knows that we are dust...
some people think they are sinning and actually are not
God is Love
Love is God
and this begins at birth
a small shot at it i know
but i can't go into some sort of
elaborate word study or complicated explanation
cuz i think it's simple
what complicates it is our own selves
and making it harder then what it is
then you got everyone and there brother telling you what God is
shoot - He's big enough to show it to you himself if we are humble enough to hear
cuz God has made people his habitation, His dwelling place as it is written
seek and you will find ask and it will be given
putting preconceived ideas aside and a fresh look helps
#1 and lets not forget that God is Love
loving starts at birth wether recognized as such or not
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year2027
God first
Beloved Mr. Hammeroni
God loves you
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Another concept I've been working through the last couple of weeks..
Adhering to what I was taught.. the answer would be "yes".. I'm not quite adhering much these days though.. biggrin.gif
Personally, I think its a pretty big leap.. from the "fall of man (adam)" to "born dead 'spiritually'".
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Yes its a leap of Faith and I been thinking about it alot too but I can only share what I see so far
Adam and Eve were created in the image of God and when they listern to the fleshly side or the image of soul life from a animal image
Their image was changed from the image of God to the image of flesh
Flesh begins to die little by little until it dies once the seed is planted
So Adam and Eve cause all their children to be born with a dead spirit UNTIl
Yes I said until but until what when Christ won over dead giving Mankind the seed of Christ
Yes I believe what Christ did planted a spiritual seed in all because he died for all
But if a water not water it will not grow and it must be in good ground or water by the words of God and a good heart the heart being the ground or dirt
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Dead in TRESPASSES AND SINS, perhaps.. but where does it say man is born dead SPIRITUALLY?
If sin results with expulsion, and loss of spirit..
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I sorry but I know no verse but sin was a loss of image from life to death but I can not give it words
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What about Lucifer? Did he not sin? Was he not "expelled"?
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Yes Lucifer did sin and he was cast out of the heavens
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Yet.. he is still regarded as a "spirit" being..
Along with a bunch of the other ones..
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I do think as the devil as a spiritual but a animal that happen to live in the heavens the one call great whales that flys in the waters which are above the firmament in the heavens
birds fly above the earth and live on the earth while they may fly over water but they do not live in the water
And good is water without life to keep it in balance
or angel food corn like plants that live in the water which are above the firmament in the heavens to give off oxgen and animal life to give off carbon dixiode
but this is me
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I other words, with sin and disobedience, it seems God did not exactly "pull the plug" on him.
Man was created a spiritual being, man disobeyed, man sinned. Why would the rules be any different? Why would God simply choose to "pull the plug"?
I'd like to re-examine this.
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No man did it too theirself just like if you drive into a wall who torn up your car you did why their may been a reason you did it you were still driven
Adam ate and God told him he could but if he did he would die maybe the woman trick Adam and the devil trick Eve it still does not change the fact that Adam ate and after he ate it was too late not to eat
Ok I hope this helps but here a little more
I believe when Christ rose that planted the seed of Christ in us and this seed is like a baby in his or her mother's womb but for us in the womb of God
With care from God the seed will not grow or its up to the person to eat or not
So its up to the person to let the seed grow and become his or her image or they can keep the old image of flesh
When we die that our birth of spirit I believe
Some will have a alive birth but others will have a dead birth
But this is just me
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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Belle
A very dear friend of mine (RockandRollGoddess) from another board wrote this regarding another discussion we were having and I think it's pertinent here:
Fits ESPECIALLY if we are born spiritual beings as well, no? :)We are part of one body and Ecclesiastes talks about our bodies returning to dust, breath life back into the air and the spirit to God for safe keeping. So......hmmmm......looks like there IS a spiritual side to man, even in the OT and Eccl doesn't mention any conditions on WHO gets that spirit or how. But that's about as far as I've thought about it. <_<
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Ham
Thanks for the comments so far.. I only have a few specific things to say about your comments thus far..
But at least it makes a little bit of sense.
I think that in a lot of ways, we took one verse out of the bible and tried to make it a doctrine..
"the day you eat therof, thou shalt surely die".. " well, it MUST mean, died spiritually, after all, it would not make any sense TO ME OTHERWISE.."
Maybe we are just not smart enough to see the answer.
That's just one verse.. now we have to explain away all that stuff in Ecclesiastes..
Of course death is a kind of change.. and the results are relatively irreversible.
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Belle
Of course, Ham, that also has to be based on the assumption that the Bible IS the God-breathed word and that there are no errors in it in any way, shape or form. It also assumes that the Bible is True and that Adam and Eve were real people. :) Just to give you more to chew on. :D
What if it's just a story? What if it was taken from another culture's explanation of the origin of man? You know a lot of OT stories exist in many other religions and cultures with too many similarities for them to not be the same story, just told with that particular religion / political agenda / spiritual message affecting the story? I didn't realize that until after getting out of TWI.
It could just be a form of religious or political propaganda to scare people into obeying what the leaders of the day told them God wanted them to do or to not do. *shrug* I dunno, though.... just a thought...
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Ham
Could very well be Belle.. kinda like "you'll be a greasespot by midnight"..
And they have the "proof"..
Nice to be able even just to CONSIDER these kind of statements without fear of getting jumped by the ole lion or something..
Uh oh! now I'm in trouble!! :D
Heh heh.
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Allan
Interesting considering that scientists have stated that every human does indeed appear to have come from the original same set of parents..Adam and Eve ? and language experts have concluded that at one point there was ONE 'mother tongue.'
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GarthP2000
Allan,
And your scientific and verifiable source(s) for this is ..... ?
And spare us the so-called Creationist 'authorities' like Kent Hovind please. It's folks like him that also give us the spew that light has been slowing down over the last 6000 years, thus making the stars look far older than they really are, ... and then try to palm off that stuff as 'genuine science'. :blink:
Some of us don't have a strong stomach for that sort of thing, thank you. :wacko:
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irisheyes
Great topic Hammer!
Now for my 2 cents. Anyone ever consider the fact that Adam and Eve were told hands off the tree of knowledge of good and evil, but NOT the tree of life? The cherubims were sent after Mr and Mrs were thrown out to KEEP THE WAY OF THE TREE OF LIFE. Perhaps this is HOW they stayed alive? Once they were taken away from this life-giving source, of course they would die! It picks up in Rev. 22, but only talks about the leaves of the tree of life being for healing. Of course, if we are healed of every disease, what would kill us anyway?
Oh, dear, I forgot the question! :(
Oh, yes, is man born dead spiritually? A real can of worms there, pal. What about cultures where Jesus just isn't all that? Is it just the luck of the draw that we got born in America, while some other slob roams the caves thinking about how to blow us up?
What about Nicodemus? You must be born again? :blink:
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templelady
By eating the "apple" Adam and Eve brought death to the world.
"The wages of sin is death"
We are all born to die, if you will, that we inherited from Adam and Eve--a sentence visited on the childrens children.
Everyone has spirit when they are born else they wouldn't be alive.
If you are talking about the Holy Spirit-and when Accountability sets in that is something dirfferent.
having to face death because of what happened in the Garden is not the same as having committed the Sin itself, hence no sin can be attributed at birth or in the early learning years.
IMO
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Sunesis
Interesting question and one I have thought about. All I know, is that for some reason, mankind is a "fallen race." Yet, we all know it is available to be born again and God can commune with us - for me its a thought, an idea, an impression - whatever. But you also see God able to commune with animals (Balaam, the whale that swallowed Jonah, etc.). He can also commune with those who weren't "born again" - the King of Babylon comes to mind.
So, God can communicate with any man or woman (or animal) if he so chooses - one does not have to have spirit upon them or in them. So there must be something in man, in all men, that God can communicate with. But I believe that is different from the holy spirit also. Different types of communication. I do believe it was that spiritual connection that was lost to Adam - but that does not make one spiritually dead - I think that's wayspeak. More like, an avenue of communication was lost. Adam willfully gave to Satan, all of the authority and his headship and rulership of this world God had conferred upon him - his kingdom - to Satan, in exchange for the wonderful (in his eyes) knowledge Satan would teach him. Didn't Satan try the same thing with Jesus - worship me and I will give you... because it was given to me... Because Adam had done this of his free will, God couldn't take it back from Satan - all was Satan's now - including mankind. It is now his kingdom.
But, there must be something wonderfully inherent in mankind, for God to go to all the trouble to ransom us back from our fallen state - he didn't have to. He could have let mankind and earth wallow in misery and destruction and started over somewhere else. But, I know the Word says our life is hid in Christ, when Christ returns, our true life shall be revealed in us and to us. To me, our sojourn on earth is almost a shadow life, we will not know our true essence, or being, so to speak, until we are with him, and we shall share in his glory and spend an eternity in endless variety, and plumbing the depths of infinite love and knowledge.
I believe Adam was inserted into mankind, as was Christ, at a certain point in time. Adam's divine mission was to communicate and teach and show God to mankind, so God could dwell with mankind and love and fellowship with mankind - as he does with the angels, of whom mankind was made just a little lower than.
Satan was enraged this beautiful planet was made for man - this new creation of God, enraged puny mankind meant so much to God and he did whatever it took to wrest control of it from God. I believe the knowledge that he offered - "you shall be as gods" - was true spiritual knowledge - of an ungodly kind - but it must have been fascinatingly beautiful. We know Satan was the most beautiful of God's creation - he was an angel. I believe he showed Adam and Eve his full glory - it was probably mindboggling. They were told, they too could be as a "god." Thus, Adam and Eve desired this perfection, desired to know the secrets of this beautiful being, desired to be like him, and probably wondered why God himself was withholding this wonderful knowledge from them, and thus, took it upon themselves to "perfect" themselves. I think the moral is, once man decides to "perfect" himself without the true God, we fall. True perfection is looking at the true God and Christ - not delving into the great spiritual "knowledge" of Satan.
So, this rejection of the true God, the desire to "perfect" themselves with the "spiritual knowledge" of the false god, so they too could become "gods" somehow led to a fall. It was catastrophic to God - a total rejection of his love and knowledge.
The consequences of this rejection of God was that man's wonderful humanity, that essence God had in mind for him to manifest, could not come to fruition - thus, for now mankind is fallen.
Make any sense? :) sorry if I rambled!
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TheEvan
templelady, I think you touched on what I believe is the heart of the matter with unregenerate man vs. one who is "born again".
To rephrase what you said, man became 'mortal' (born to die).
The problem with DerVeg's teaching is that, spiritually, unregenerate man is equivalent to animals. I have a problem with that, biblically & every other way. God clearly distinguished man from from the rest of the animal kingdom. Adam was made like God in more ways than in simply being immortal.
Anyway, when one is "born again", I believe the result is immortality (I Cor 15), not now of course, but when we are raised incorruptible.
The whole 'man had spirit and then lost it and regainde it' makes sense when you hear it in Piffle. But, honestly, how well supported is in the Bible? I do believe that God does send the spirit of His Son into our hearts. But this itself does not constitute a "new birth".
Paul never spoke of a new birth. Jesus did once and Peter did once.
The main way Paul speaks of such things is as "salvation" or "being saved". He consistently equated salvation with having our sins paid for and receiving the righteousness of God...legally and spiritually. To lump that in with terms like "born again" tends to muddy the waters in my book.
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templelady
Matthew 18 :3" ...Verily I say into you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children. ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven"
MAtthew 19:14 "But Jesus said "suffer little children and forbid them not, to come unto me: for such is the kingdom of heaven.""
The idea that children are pure and innocent in the eyes of God is reiterated by Christ throughout the gospels (CHildren being people younger than the age of accountability.) Clearly then IMO, it is matter of the world's influence that causes sin in our lives and we are held accountable for our succumbing to THAT influence as opposed to the sins committed by Adam.
If Children stand pure and innocent they must have sprituality of some degree since only God, by definition , is pure and innocent. After the age of accountability we have a choice as to maintaining that state. Jesus Christ maintained that state throughout his life.
Edited by templeladyLink to comment
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Samurai
No, I don't believe that child are born dead, born in sin or born without any form of deity touching their lives.
I have come to the conclusion that the story of Adam and Eve is just that, a story, designed to give meaning to describe how life started, how man and woman started and how troubles came about in people's lives. I think it was meant to be an allegory to the people of the time just as the Pandora's Box story was not meant to be taken seriously as a reason for the bad in the world and not to be taken literally.
I have met all kinds of people, Christian and non Christian, those who believe in some type of higher power and those that don't believe at all and I will tell you that those who believe or those in believe in a Christian god do NOT have a spiritual/ethical/moral edge over anyone else. So born again, regenerated, enlightened and so forth makes no difference in the quality of the person at large, except maybe for those who put stock in such labeling of people.
People are people and you have the good, the bad and the ugly in all walks of belief or non belief. The seperating factor among all of them is the decisions they have made in how to live their lives and how they have decided to respond personally to adversity. It has nothing to do with a man and woman in a garden eating of fruit of a tree which was tempting to them, from a god whose own book says he doesn't tempt people and when a talking snake got a hold of them ...well. See my point?
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GarthP2000
Samurai,
B) B) Excellent post! Just excellent! B) B)
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Ham
Sorry I've ignored this thread for a while..
Very very good point. And I am beggining to agree more with this. How could he communicate with them, indeed.. and in da class, vic said: "God CANNOT communicate with the human, brain cells".."God can communicate only with what He is, which is, spirit"If God only communicates through this supposed one genuine spiritual connection.. there is a lot of good stuff in the world that you have to explain away as counterfiet, of the devil, or some other way..
They... MUST. Says a lot.. and I would further add, they DO, until society and religion often beats it out of them.. Temple Lady, lest I be one to selectively quote you..I will say, yes, I'm at least considering the age of accountability factor as regards to this.. I'm just not entirely convinced though..
That has been my experience, as well.
I have often observed the opposite.
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