You can't stay and you can't leave

[Belle]

"These are from some of my notes on the book, 'The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse'. It's got lots of useful information I thought might be good to bring up again given we have some new people at the counter. My ex threw away my copy of the book, so I don't have it to compare and pull out the direct quotes.

If you haven't read this book, no matter how long you've been out or been in, I highly recommend it! When you read this you're going to think these people are from TWI, but they're not. :o And that's scary!

This part added on edit. Thanks WW!! :)

You can't stay and you can't leave

The spiritual abuser will quite often make it both hard to stay and hard to leave. This is a really cruel manipulation. The poor Christian is told that other groups are devilish, and counterfeit. They are told that if they leave something terrible will happen to them, or that God will be very displeased with them and that He won't answer their prayers. Yet if they try to stay then they will be told that they have to live up to some impossible standard to earn God's love and praise. This is called performance based Christianity. This is the opposite of grace based Christianity, because the believer has to earn what God has already freely given him. The problem here is that nobody can live up to the standard - - not even the spiritual abuser himself lives up to the standard that he is promoting. Jesus Christ was the only man that ever walked perfectly - - the rest of us can only make it by God's grace. Then when people don't measure up to the standard they are kicked out, excommunicated, marked and avoided, or some other form of removal from the group that they are now desperately trying to stay in. This is where fear motivation, control and demanding of obedience are manifested.

There is a great record in the John Chapter 9 - - this is the record of the man that was born blind. One of the miracles that proved that Jesus Christ was the Son of God was the healing of a man born blind. This had never been done before. The Pharisees were spiritual abusers who were not interested in the blind man's deliverance. They were instead interested in accusing and kicking out those who didn't follow their religious standards.

John 9:26 Then said they [the Pharisees] to him [the man born blind] again, What did he [Jesus Christ] to thee? how opened he thine eyes?

9:27 He answered them, I have told you already, and ye did not hear: wherefore would ye hear it again? will ye also be his disciples?

9:28 Then they reviled him, and said, Thou art his disciple; but we are Moses' disciples.

9:29 We know that God spake unto Moses: as for this fellow, we know not from whence he is.

9:30 The man answered and said unto them, Why herein is a marvellous thing, that ye know not from whence he is, and yet he hath opened mine eyes.

9:31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.

9:32 Since the world began was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind.

9:33 If this man were not of God, he could do nothing.

9:34 They answered and said unto him, Thou wast altogether born in sins, and dost thou teach us? And they cast him out.

Here the Pharisees kicked out the man because he was healed on the wrong day and he had the courage to stand up to them and question them and because he was not intimidated by them.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Jesus Christ did not kick out his followers. He kicked out devil spirits, and he backed down Scribes and Pharisees, but he didn't turn on his own followers. But spiritual abusers will often accuse people of having devil spirits, but instead of casting out the spirits they cast out the people. The reason is that the people don't have spirits to cast out because the accusation was false to begin with. There are occasional situations where someone may have to be asked not to attend a church or fellowship. But if removing people from the fellowship is the norm then there is something wrong.

In an abusive system the follower is taught that the ONLY truth and protection come from staying in the group. This puts a deep fear of leaving into the follower. The follower will do anything to keep from getting kicked out, and the follower would not even dream of leaving even though the treatment he receives in the group continues to get worse.

Isaiah 35:8 And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein.

35:9 No lion shall be there, nor any ravenous beast shall go up thereon, it shall not be found there; but the redeemed shall walk there:

I have seen these verses used to teach that "the way of holiness" is staying in the group and that those that leave the group will end up being devoured by the lions and other ravenous beasts. This again builds fear and negative believing so that people don't have the courage to leave or that when they are out they are convinced that something terrible will happen to them. When people get in that state of mind they will quite often get what they fear.

Job 3:25 For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me.

Edited September 27, 2005 by Belle

[WordWolf]

Um,

what part's a direct quote from the book, and what's your commentary?

Or is all of that a direct quote?

Or is all of it a paraphrase from a chapter?

[Belle]

WW, it's from some notes I found looking for some SQL code on an old CD of mine. My ex threw my copy of the book away, so I'm note sure if it's a paraphrase or a direct quote, but the verbiage doesn't appear to be similar to mine, so I think it's a direct quote from the book.

Since we have so many new people on here and some of them haven't read the book, I thought it might be timely to revisit this information. If I'm doing something wrong, please let me know. :)

[oldiesman]

When people get in that state of mind they will quite often get what they fear.

Job 3:25 For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me.

Sounds like PFAL.

:o

The follower will do anything to keep from getting kicked out, and the follower would not even dream of leaving even though the treatment he receives in the group continues to get worse.

If this were true, we'd all still be there.

[Belle]

If this were true, we'd all still be there.

OM, don't read things into the book that aren't there. It's talking about people in the midst of the abuse, not those who have realized what they were doing. I don't know about you, but I did try to do everything I could to keep the leadership appeased and to keep from getting kicked out until I just got so darn tired of running on that hamster wheel. Maybe YOU didn't do this, but some of us did. It doesn't mean we did it forever or continue to do it forever..... Geeze, Man! Think! :blink: :huh:

[oldiesman]

Well I think most of us tried all we could.

But twi's door was always open, both to come and go.

But it's hard for some folks to see that, thinking of themselves as "victims" all the time.

I think one of the misconceptions of "abuse" is that we "couldn't".

[WordWolf]

WW, it's from some notes I found looking for some SQL code on an old CD of mine. My ex threw my copy of the book away, so I'm note sure if it's a paraphrase or a direct quote, but the verbiage doesn't appear to be similar to mine, so I think it's a direct quote from the book.

Since we have so many new people on here and some of them haven't read the book, I thought it might be timely to revisit this information. If I'm doing something wrong, please let me know. :)

Well,

since it's from some notes you made on the book,

I'd make it clear these are from your notes on the book,

not direct quotes,

but that you don't have the original with you to make a comparison.

It might read something like this....

"The book, 'the Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse', has much useful information you may be

thankful to have. Although I don't have my copy anymore, I DO have my notes from it.

Here's what some of them say:"

or it might read

"The book 'the Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse' says something like this on the following

subject..."

or

"Here's more from my notes based on the book 'the Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse'"

or something along those lines.

Just so we can see that this is FROM it without being direct quotes.

A little background on the book wouldn't hurt, either.

For example, I think the writer was never an innie, and thus never used the expression

"devil spirit" which you used. If that's true, then that part of your notes is a paraphrase or

entirely your impressions of the book.

[Ham]

The poor Christian is told that other groups are devilish, and counterfeit.

That was my experience. All others were "Christen dumb". "possessed". "run by seed of the serpent".

They are told that if they leave something terrible will happen to them, or that God will be very displeased with them and that He won't answer their prayers

We were told that lions and such were just waiting anywhere off of the "way" of holiness.. and yes, that "way", was loy's "way".

Yet if they try to stay then they will be told that they have to live up to some impossible standard to earn God's love and praise.

Lessee. No house, no debt, no pets, no extra-curricular involvement, corps head up your schedule, not to mention every waking moment of your life.. well, couldn't have been all that bad, eh kiddies? Ptooie.

The problem here is that nobody can live up to the standard - - not even the spiritual abuser himself lives up to the standard that he is promoting.

Nobody. The problem was, there WAS no standard. They could set the hoops as high as they wished..

Then when people don't measure up to the standard they are kicked out, excommunicated, marked and avoided, or some other form of removal from the group that they are now desperately trying to stay in.

Reminds me of you and the corps program, oldies.. would have given your right arm or something.. but you had value to them, sure. You were an "example". And whooo boy, they sure took advantage of "examples". I would call it "used".

This is where fear motivation, control and demanding of obedience are manifested.

Wonder what kind of kind, considerate meetings followed your departure..

They used you like.. well, I don't wanna invoke the wrath of the moderators.

[oldiesman]

Wonder what kind of kind, considerate meetings followed your departure..

It was devastating at the time, but I "got over it" in about 2 years or so.

Was back out WOW about year after that.

Didn't have to go out WOW either, just could have stayed at twig and been Joe Believer if I wanted.

Come to think of it, that would have been easier. ha!

I had some really good twig coordinators.

[Ham]

Wonder what kind of kind, considerate meetings followed your departure..

Well, what I kinda meant in this was, what kind of a beating did they give the rest of the corps that were left behind in that dungeon?

What kind of threats were made? What kind of accusations, that they were spiritually the lowest of the low for not "sniffing out" some one as "devilish" as you?

What kind of foul accusations were thrown that somehow, despite doc vic praise be his name (in honor of Steve!) training to be attentitive to details, that somehow, they "missed it"?

"Well, we oughta send you whole bunch of stinkin losers home.. if you don't straighten up.."

Don't think it happened? I've been in those kind of meetings, and I WAS NOT CORPS.

I suggest that you were "used". Oh yes, "those kind of meetings".. many of the worst, I remember in the "good old days".. early seventies.

[Goey]

Well I think most of us tried all we could.

But twi's door was always open, both to come and go.

But it's hard for some folks to see that, thinking of themselves as "victims" all the time.

I think one of the misconceptions of "abuse" is that we "couldn't".

Always the TWI apologist - eh Oldies?

Put on your thinking cap man and take off your your rose colored glasses for a sec.

What were the supposed ramifications if someone walked out of TWI's "open door"? I am talking about the 90's Oldies, not the "good old days" of Doc Vic and TWI-1. What were people told by TWI's God appointed leaders? "Greasepot by midnight" I have been told. Do you deny this?

Now isn't it reasonable to think that SOME people believed these leaders? And that bad thing would happen to them or their families? That there was no truth and no real fellowship beyond TWI? Do you deny this? too?

And consider also that these things were said by TWI's GOD-appointed leaders - or so they claimed to be. Oldies, don't you believe that VPW spoke for God or was appointed by God? Is it unreasonable then to assume that folks in later years of TWI believed that their leaders were also appointed by or spoke for God?

These were the same leaders who told folks that they would die or become a greasespot if they walked out that "open door" of yours.

We are NOT talking about YOU Oldies, and YOUR seemingly unique experience or YOUR revisionist history of TWI. We are talking about folks in the trenches who didn't have family members or friends close to top of TWI - Folks without special privilege. --To these folks, leaving or getting kicked out of TWI was the worst thing that could happen to them. Why? Cause they believed the lies that TWI and its leaders told them. Some still do.

This is abuse Oldies. - Why is it so hard for YOU to grasp that?

Edited September 27, 2005 by Goey

[Rejoice]

What about rewards in heavan? Are we supposed to work for these after salvation, or is that another example of Performance based Christianity?? :unsure:

[Ham]

Rewards.. yep. "I don't want the lord to come to MY TURN and just say 'ahem, next..'.."

Oh, the embarrassment! Woe is me...

I guess rewards might be nice.. but If they are even gonna be there, I don't think they would be doled out for being a not so nice (rude!) faithless wayfer..

"Well done (?) thou good (?) and faithful (???!) servant (????????!!!), here's a shiny new car for giving the Lord a black eye.."

Edited September 28, 2005 by Mr. Hammeroni

[irisheyes]

Hammer,

How many crowns can one head hold anyway?

[Ham]

Good point! What in the world would I want a stinkin crown for anyway..

too darn heavy. Just have to have the heavenly chiropractor "minister" to my neck anyway..

We've figured out that we know so LITTLE in this life.. how about some of the secrets of the universe? That might be kinda nice..

[Belle]

There was a discussion about rewards in the Doctrinal section once. I can't remember what all it was about, but I do remember the rewards NOT being anything like what TWI taught. IMO, doing "works" because you're aiming to get "rewards" removes the heart of doing the "works" and invalidates any "rewards" you might get. It's like everything else TWI teaches - you follow the legalism they teach and then you can make DEMANDS of God.

[templelady]

Well I think most of us tried all we could.

I'd agree with that --the sad thing was that in TWI eyes it was never enough.

But twi's door was always open, both to come and go.

If you left TWI--coming back was a living horror. It was immediately made clear to all and sundry that you had sucumbed to "the wiles of the adversary", "you lacked believeing". This was thrown in your face every time you asked a question. It was pointed out to fellow believers that you could not be really trusted. Your life was very very narrowly circumscribed it you wanted to remain.

But it's hard for some folks to see that, thinking of themselves as "victims" all the time.

I always knew I could go back --all I had to do was say that my husband had never abused me, Rich Urquhart was not a sexual predator, Leadership was totally right and I was totally wrong.

I was the "recipeint" of Physical Abuse

Iwas the recipient of Mental abuse

Iwas the 'recipeint" of disrespect

I was the "recipient" of Vicious lies about myself

I was the "recipients of Sexual Abuse"

And my children were all recipients also.

I think one of the misconceptions of "abuse" is that we "couldn't".

Right OM

I could have left...

leaving my children behind

I could have left taking which evey child or children I was currently with...

leaving the others behind

I could have called the police...OOPS , sorry, Did that--was told it was my problem to get him out of the house.

I Could have got a gun and shot the &^$&^$&^%&*...

in which case I'd be doing 99 yeas and the kids would still have ended up in the system.

I could have just killed myself and ended my misery..

leaving the kids with SD

I could have killed them

I could have killed us all

I think one of the problems with "Abuse" is that it's often forgotten that just because you "Could" do something doesn't mean you "Should"

[Ham]

A lot of this reminds me of Nazi Germany.. didn't agree with Hitler? Well, you were free to "leave".. sure.

I don't think many made it out in one piece though..

Oh yes. When I left, it wasn't exactly in one piece either.. mentally at least..

Same can be said for a lot of folks around here..