I`d say that a lack of respect or passing of judgement on who what and where God has wrought his work for in an individual could be a lingering sign of cultic belief as well.
Biblically, the only way to identify a spiritualy healthy group or individual is to look past the lable and examine the fruit of the spirit manifested.
Why not let Mo (rmon) lady answer her own questions 'Belle', are you an 'overprotective person' ??
I guess the real question is "why lambast Dr.Wierwilles teachings when you sit in a pew on Sundays listening to easily proven absolute crap and dribble from the book of Mormon..??!!
Your comments are tantamount to 'sheer hypocisy'
Sorry Belle but I will not let some Mormon (whether they are your 'best buddy' or not) belittle what I believe to be true.
Sorry, Alan, but I will not let some label-making vicious wanna be Christian attack people unprovoked and belittle what THEY believe to be true. ESPECIALLY people on here who have shared their hearts, lives and genuinely tried to help people, regarldess of what label you slap on them.
vee pee has lambasted his own teachings and his own credibility. He doesn't need any of us to do it, we're just pointing out what's already there. If you can't have an adult, respectful discussion or debate then you really shouldn't be here. Some of us may disagree on here, but we do it with respect (for the most part) - you don't ever.
Every post you make that's vicious and uncalled for will be reported by me. One of us will get banned because I will bug the H-E-DOUBLE HOCKEY STICKS out of Paw and the moderators till they do something about your behavior - it's totally uncalled for.
JBarrax and his study and reviews along with Raf and those who contributed to the re-evaluation of all things TWI taught were very, very, very instrumental in the removal of my TWI blinders and the healing of my brain. :) (well, that part's debatable)
I'm really thankful for them and the time they took to document this and to save it. That will be added to my most important bookmarks. Thanks, David!
Thank you for sharing that Belle.
Jesus Christ said "the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).
Error can put us in bondage to some degree. This is why so many got hurt by TWI's erroneous doctrines.
While still involved with TWI, I bought into their doctrines and believed they taught the absolute truth. It was a shock to learn they had taught so much error, but in part learning this helped me heal of "waybrain".
This is one of the reasons I post on Greasepotcafe and try to help others who are still "waybrained" by sharing the truth of God's Word and also sharing about the error taught to us by TWI.
I certainly don't claim to have all the answers, but what I know I'll share. Greasespotcafe is an excellent forum to learn and share, I know I've learned a great deal since reading and discussing on it, which has also contributed to my healing of "waybrain".
Now I see folks like you, Belle, who were in TWI's bondage not so long ago, out and free, sharing and trying to help others. Praise God!
I too am thankful for Jerry Barrax and Raf plus many others who take the time to share here at the Cafe. Thanks guys. Keep up the good work.
Most cultic beliefs (JW, Mormonism, TWI) can be easily disproven, but it takes some outside power to get someone inside to admit their error. Or they just float from one cult to the next, thinking they have gotten it right now.
Keep in mind that most cultic beliefs that are ((cough)) 'disproven' only look that way thru the doctrinal lenses that you have learned from your church. No doubt the Mormons, et al, view your beliefs with the same dismissive POV, and even the Catholics (if you're a Protestant) no doubt view Protestant beliefs as heretical, and visa-versa.
Allan, BTW I have been on your website and I believe you are doing CFF-Christian Family Fellowship- a diservice by behaving and posting in the way you have been.
:) :) :) WOW to read this thread and find all my wonderful friends defending my rights made my morning!!! thank you
Now to answer Allan myself
Mormonlady(aka Templelady)..men of old spoke as they were inspired by God..error crept in
through various translations and transliterations.
That is very true--the problem was that TWI would take passages of scripture that were clearly speaking on one topic and change or modify that topic to suit their purposes--Does AOS ring a bell???
Your comments were a bit 'rich' don't you think considering you go by the book of 'Mormon' !!
I am a bit confused here--are you saying that if I or any other GSer has differing religious viewpoints we are not supposed to comment????? that sounds a little like TWI conrol to ME
Do you believe the book of 'Mormon' was 'inspired'
I believe the BOM was inspired by GOD as he revealed it to Nephi, Helaman, Alma, Ether and Morman to name just a few. I believe that Joseph Smith translated those writings at GOD's direction
Mormonlady(aka Templelady)..men of old spoke as they were inspired by God..error crept in
through various translations and transliterations.
Your comments were a bit 'rich' don't you think considering you go by the book of 'Mormon' !!
Do you believe the book of 'Mormon' was 'inspired' ??!!
Why not let Mo (rmon) lady answer her own questions 'Belle', are you an 'overprotective person' ??
I guess the real question is "why lambast Dr.Wierwilles teachings when you sit in a pew on Sundays listening to easily proven absolute crap and dribble from the book of Mormon..??!!
Your comments are tantamount to 'sheer hypocisy'
Sorry Belle but I will not let some Mormon (whether they are your 'best buddy' or not) belittle what I believe to be true.
Personally, I think Allan is just trying to derail the subject and take the focus off the errors in PFAL by attacking Mo and her beliefs.
I think he doesn't know how anwser for the error's in "da class" biblically so he try's to change the topic.
What's the matter Allan, afraid to answer for your "fadder in da word"? Afraid to admit Wierwille taught error?
I'm not defending VPW at all, he awaits the return as many of us will if Christ tarries.
What's VPW awaiting the return got to do with the erroneous doctrines he taught, that you seem to believe in? You attack others for their beliefs, yet you won't explain about error taught in beliefs of yours!
The point of this thread is the error in PFAL, not the beliefs of other people! If your posting on this thread you should be discussing PFAL error's, so whats wrong Allan, afraid to discuss the subject?
so..what 'label' does Belle, Rascal, Templelady etc.. put on ex-wayfers who still hold to 'majority' of previously taught truths from the ministry of VPW ?! Just curious ? Mike has his beliefs, Def 59, DMiller etc..
Seems to me you aren't terribly happy to 'happily disagree' with their posts... so think before you use words like 'viscious, attack etc..' remember the fingers pointing back !!
I have nothing to fear nor nothing to hide..as you see my actual name goes beside my post (Out in 88)!!
so..what 'label' does Belle, Rascal, Templelady etc.. put on ex-wayfers who still hold to 'majority' of previously taught truths from the ministry of VPW
What do I call you guys? (since mo already took my answere hee he) Why I suppose I think of you all as fellow travelers.
We all embarked upon the same adventure.... some started sooner, some stopped to rest along the way....some have been sprinting since they began....the point is....we are at different stages of our journey is all.
There are many different paths or routs that we can take, some of us pause longer than others at the places that we enjoy...
I see you as having stopped at an area to rest and have then chosen to go no further with the tour......convinced that there is nothing better because someone told you that was the case......you then act like you are REALLY mad at everyone else for not stopping and staying right there with you in an area that was found untenable....
You guys are yelling come back come back....there is nothing better...it is dangerous out there....this is the only safe place ....and we are shouting back...no it is better up ahead....the streams are lovely, the woods are beautifull....the mountains glorious.......some have continued the adventure, twi being but one of many places we stopped and visited.....eventually moving along when it proved to be unpleasant
Those of us who found that particular path unsavory... in the future attempt to avoid paths that might possibly lead to such entrapments in the future...maybe even going so far as to post a warning sign or two along the way for the unsuspecting travelers that may come along later.
Whether we linger or whether we continue, I think that the trick is to enjoy the journey....
Plain and simple. I learn from everyone here, even you Alan. ;)
Like it or not we are all part of one body and we're all connected in some way, but not everyone realizes that, wants to acknowledge it or act like it. Pity.
Rascal,
Your post reminded me of something I've been thinking about lately:
I love, Love, LOVE Whitewater Rafting! LOVE IT!!!!!!!!
Last time I went I saw the coolest shirt and had to get it. The back of it says, The Journey is the Destination. It's so true! When you go whitewater rafting you hit smooth water, rough water, white water, dangerous as he** water....all kinds. In the raft you have to all work together or all or some of you will get thrown out of the boat or hurt really bad. The rafts all take different courses based on how the guide reads the river, but we all end up at the same place safely and having had a great time. We don't rush to get to the end of the ride. The whole reason we paid to go on the trip was for the trip, not to race to the end and be done with it. So often, it was so much fun we wish the trip had been longer or that we could turn around and go again. The adrenaline rush is so intense that rafting is used as therapy for many drug addicts and many of them become river guides themselves because they enjoy it so much....but, that's beside the point.
The point is, like white water rafting, we should enjoy the trip and not rush to the end or keep looking around the bend for the next set of rapids. We also have to work together as a team and we're always ready to help folks out in the other rafts if they need us. We enjoy the calm waters and the rough waters and know that the opposite is right around the corner and we can enjoy that when we get there. Now....if I could just remember that when I'm neck deep in white water.
so..what 'label' does Belle, Rascal, Templelady etc.. put on ex-wayfers who still hold to 'majority' of previously taught truths from the ministry of VPW ?! Just curious ? Mike has his beliefs, Def 59, DMiller etc..
Seems to me you aren't terribly happy to 'happily disagree' with their posts... so think before you use words like 'viscious, attack etc..' remember the fingers pointing back !!
I have nothing to fear nor nothing to hide..as you see my actual name goes beside my post (Out in 88)!!
Well Allan --- I'll tell ya. :) I can't speak for Mike or Def (both of whom disagree with me on several things), but speaking for myself I can honestly say that anyone can call me whatever they want, just call me in time for supper. :D
Now -- all levity aside -- a multitude of folks here "happily disagree" with me on a regular basis. I make my views known about several *hot topics*, and for some reason they run against the grain of a lot of the posters here. My one question about that is "SO WHAT?" If others choose to disagree with me about (say) Lesbianism, the 10 commandments, speaking in tongues, devil spirits, etc., ad infinitum, that is their privilidge to do so, just as it is my privilidge to say what I think.
I'm from Indiana, the Hoosier state, and there were two prominent sayings promoting that state in the past coupla decades.
One was --- WANDER INDIANA
and the other was --- HOOSIER HOSPITALITY IS NO ACCIDENT.
Saying number one said to Wander Indiana (thanks Rascal -- I like the fellow traveler analogy!) ;) It didn't say wander the forests, the highways, the cities, or any specific place north, south, east, or west -- just wander. Find a path you like and GO. And after you go on your individual path, hopefully you'll find something you like enough to take to heart.
Saying number two says Hoosier hospitality is no accident. Well, I like to think that I am an *abassador* (of sorts) of that mentality. We got a lot of visitors just *wandering* in Indiana, and ya sure didn't want to chase them away, after they accepted the invitation.
Which leads me to what I REALLY want to say ---------------
As someone who is hospitable to *wanderers*, I would never gun them down in the street if they did me wrong. If they forced their way into my house to do me harm, violating my space, stealing my stuff, WHATEVER, I would not even think twice before pulling the trigger. Anyone (uninvited into my home) who wishes ill for me and mine will be looking down the barrel of a gun, and rightfully so.
What you have done here on this board -- is VERBALLY GUN DOWN FOLKS ON THE STREET.
(and I say this with all the love-of-God-in-the-renewed-mind-in-manifestation I have)
They were not *univited into your home* (you logged on, right?)
You're *on the street* (open forum, world-wide internet, etc., right?)
It's your choice to be here (no one forced you to register, did they?)
*Persona non grata* doesn't apply to computers, unless you hit the *ignore* key, and then you don't have to hear them anyway.
Personally -- I like you, and what you stand for even if I don't agree with all of it. However, I take exception to that fact when you start *pulling the trigger* outside your own house.
If you continue to do so, you should expect to be called the names like *vicious* and *attack* mentioned ealier, and you'll have nothing to say, since you are *on the street*.
Soooooooo -- I suggest hospitality over animosity. Works every time. ;)
When dialogue flows, learning is enhanced -- for both parties involved. B)
David
(ps -- I have my actual name there beside my posts too!!)
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rascal
I`d say that a lack of respect or passing of judgement on who what and where God has wrought his work for in an individual could be a lingering sign of cultic belief as well.
Biblically, the only way to identify a spiritualy healthy group or individual is to look past the lable and examine the fruit of the spirit manifested.
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WordWolf
Belle can answer any question she wants to. The question was posted in a public message forum,
and as such is fair game.
They were presented deceitfully, some of them were error, and many people were hurt by them.Templelady did NOT invite you to attack her personal beliefs.
No, they're not "hypocisy", and wouldn't be even if that was a real word in English.She hasn't seen people trying to micromanage and ruin lives in HER group.
Yes you will.
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/main/forums.htm
"In that light, please be courteous to fellow posters. Disagree all you want, but respect the fact
that someone else may feel as strongly about their ideas as you do about your own.
Please don't make it personal."
"All are welcome here. However, harassing behavior will result in being banned from the forums,
There is no need for personal attacks. If you have a specific problem with a poster, settle it
outside of the forum."
"All are welcome here."
That means
"You can't attack other posters for being in a group you don't like,
and you can't attack other posters for not being in a group you DO like.
"Harassing behavior"- that's "the type of posts Allan does"
"will result in being banned from the forums"-that means "if he keeps it up, he's history."
"There is no need for personal attacks." That means "Allan has little reason to post here."
===
To everyone except Allan,
please excuse the sarcasm at the end-I think it was called-for.
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Belle
Sorry, Alan, but I will not let some label-making vicious wanna be Christian attack people unprovoked and belittle what THEY believe to be true. ESPECIALLY people on here who have shared their hearts, lives and genuinely tried to help people, regarldess of what label you slap on them.
vee pee has lambasted his own teachings and his own credibility. He doesn't need any of us to do it, we're just pointing out what's already there. If you can't have an adult, respectful discussion or debate then you really shouldn't be here. Some of us may disagree on here, but we do it with respect (for the most part) - you don't ever.
Every post you make that's vicious and uncalled for will be reported by me. One of us will get banned because I will bug the H-E-DOUBLE HOCKEY STICKS out of Paw and the moderators till they do something about your behavior - it's totally uncalled for.
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Outin88.
Thank you for sharing that Belle.
Jesus Christ said "the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).
Error can put us in bondage to some degree. This is why so many got hurt by TWI's erroneous doctrines.
While still involved with TWI, I bought into their doctrines and believed they taught the absolute truth. It was a shock to learn they had taught so much error, but in part learning this helped me heal of "waybrain".
This is one of the reasons I post on Greasepotcafe and try to help others who are still "waybrained" by sharing the truth of God's Word and also sharing about the error taught to us by TWI.
I certainly don't claim to have all the answers, but what I know I'll share. Greasespotcafe is an excellent forum to learn and share, I know I've learned a great deal since reading and discussing on it, which has also contributed to my healing of "waybrain".
Now I see folks like you, Belle, who were in TWI's bondage not so long ago, out and free, sharing and trying to help others. Praise God!
I too am thankful for Jerry Barrax and Raf plus many others who take the time to share here at the Cafe. Thanks guys. Keep up the good work.
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GarthP2000
Keep in mind that most cultic beliefs that are ((cough)) 'disproven' only look that way thru the doctrinal lenses that you have learned from your church. No doubt the Mormons, et al, view your beliefs with the same dismissive POV, and even the Catholics (if you're a Protestant) no doubt view Protestant beliefs as heretical, and visa-versa.
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penguin
Allan, BTW I have been on your website and I believe you are doing CFF-Christian Family Fellowship- a diservice by behaving and posting in the way you have been.
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templelady
:) :) :) WOW to read this thread and find all my wonderful friends defending my rights made my morning!!! thank you
Now to answer Allan myself
That is very true--the problem was that TWI would take passages of scripture that were clearly speaking on one topic and change or modify that topic to suit their purposes--Does AOS ring a bell???I am a bit confused here--are you saying that if I or any other GSer has differing religious viewpoints we are not supposed to comment????? that sounds a little like TWI conrol to ME
I believe the BOM was inspired by GOD as he revealed it to Nephi, Helaman, Alma, Ether and Morman to name just a few. I believe that Joseph Smith translated those writings at GOD's direction
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Outin88.
Personally, I think Allan is just trying to derail the subject and take the focus off the errors in PFAL by attacking Mo and her beliefs.
I think he doesn't know how anwser for the error's in "da class" biblically so he try's to change the topic.
What's the matter Allan, afraid to answer for your "fadder in da word"? Afraid to admit Wierwille taught error?
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Allan
I'm not defending VPW at all, he awaits the return as many of us will if Christ tarries.
Thankyou for replying Templelady and for the admission of your 'faith' in the 'God inspired' book of Mormon.
To me that speaks volumes...good day to you all.
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Outin88.
What's VPW awaiting the return got to do with the erroneous doctrines he taught, that you seem to believe in? You attack others for their beliefs, yet you won't explain about error taught in beliefs of yours!
The point of this thread is the error in PFAL, not the beliefs of other people! If your posting on this thread you should be discussing PFAL error's, so whats wrong Allan, afraid to discuss the subject?
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Allan
so..what 'label' does Belle, Rascal, Templelady etc.. put on ex-wayfers who still hold to 'majority' of previously taught truths from the ministry of VPW ?! Just curious ? Mike has his beliefs, Def 59, DMiller etc..
Seems to me you aren't terribly happy to 'happily disagree' with their posts... so think before you use words like 'viscious, attack etc..' remember the fingers pointing back !!
I have nothing to fear nor nothing to hide..as you see my actual name goes beside my post (Out in 88)!!
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Outin88.
Allan, you don't like to answer direct questions, you just like to dodge them!
Once again, instead of staying in context of the thread, you have to point at others to dodge the subject!
You remind me of my kids, when I catch one doing somthing wrong, they say something like, but he did it too!
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templelady
I personally call them :
Fellow Greasespotter's
And for the Record my name is
Maureen K Dilley
438 East 9th
Anchorage, AK 99501
Anything else you would like to know Allan???
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rascal
What do I call you guys? (since mo already took my answere hee he) Why I suppose I think of you all as fellow travelers.
We all embarked upon the same adventure.... some started sooner, some stopped to rest along the way....some have been sprinting since they began....the point is....we are at different stages of our journey is all.
There are many different paths or routs that we can take, some of us pause longer than others at the places that we enjoy...
I see you as having stopped at an area to rest and have then chosen to go no further with the tour......convinced that there is nothing better because someone told you that was the case......you then act like you are REALLY mad at everyone else for not stopping and staying right there with you in an area that was found untenable....
You guys are yelling come back come back....there is nothing better...it is dangerous out there....this is the only safe place ....and we are shouting back...no it is better up ahead....the streams are lovely, the woods are beautifull....the mountains glorious.......some have continued the adventure, twi being but one of many places we stopped and visited.....eventually moving along when it proved to be unpleasant
Those of us who found that particular path unsavory... in the future attempt to avoid paths that might possibly lead to such entrapments in the future...maybe even going so far as to post a warning sign or two along the way for the unsuspecting travelers that may come along later.
Whether we linger or whether we continue, I think that the trick is to enjoy the journey....
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Brother Speed
son: Dad, what's a label?
dad: Oh, thats just something they give to someone so they can hate them without meeting them.
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Belle
Members in particular
Plain and simple. I learn from everyone here, even you Alan. ;)
Like it or not we are all part of one body and we're all connected in some way, but not everyone realizes that, wants to acknowledge it or act like it. Pity.
Rascal,
Your post reminded me of something I've been thinking about lately:
I love, Love, LOVE Whitewater Rafting! LOVE IT!!!!!!!!
Last time I went I saw the coolest shirt and had to get it. The back of it says, The Journey is the Destination. It's so true! When you go whitewater rafting you hit smooth water, rough water, white water, dangerous as he** water....all kinds. In the raft you have to all work together or all or some of you will get thrown out of the boat or hurt really bad. The rafts all take different courses based on how the guide reads the river, but we all end up at the same place safely and having had a great time. We don't rush to get to the end of the ride. The whole reason we paid to go on the trip was for the trip, not to race to the end and be done with it. So often, it was so much fun we wish the trip had been longer or that we could turn around and go again. The adrenaline rush is so intense that rafting is used as therapy for many drug addicts and many of them become river guides themselves because they enjoy it so much....but, that's beside the point.
The point is, like white water rafting, we should enjoy the trip and not rush to the end or keep looking around the bend for the next set of rapids. We also have to work together as a team and we're always ready to help folks out in the other rafts if they need us. We enjoy the calm waters and the rough waters and know that the opposite is right around the corner and we can enjoy that when we get there. Now....if I could just remember that when I'm neck deep in white water.
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Ham
Kinda of vague.. and it assumes a lot.. which "return" does he await, indeed..
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dmiller
Well Allan --- I'll tell ya. :) I can't speak for Mike or Def (both of whom disagree with me on several things), but speaking for myself I can honestly say that anyone can call me whatever they want, just call me in time for supper. :D
Now -- all levity aside -- a multitude of folks here "happily disagree" with me on a regular basis. I make my views known about several *hot topics*, and for some reason they run against the grain of a lot of the posters here. My one question about that is "SO WHAT?" If others choose to disagree with me about (say) Lesbianism, the 10 commandments, speaking in tongues, devil spirits, etc., ad infinitum, that is their privilidge to do so, just as it is my privilidge to say what I think.
I'm from Indiana, the Hoosier state, and there were two prominent sayings promoting that state in the past coupla decades.
One was --- WANDER INDIANA
and the other was --- HOOSIER HOSPITALITY IS NO ACCIDENT.
Saying number one said to Wander Indiana (thanks Rascal -- I like the fellow traveler analogy!) ;) It didn't say wander the forests, the highways, the cities, or any specific place north, south, east, or west -- just wander. Find a path you like and GO. And after you go on your individual path, hopefully you'll find something you like enough to take to heart.
Saying number two says Hoosier hospitality is no accident. Well, I like to think that I am an *abassador* (of sorts) of that mentality. We got a lot of visitors just *wandering* in Indiana, and ya sure didn't want to chase them away, after they accepted the invitation.
Which leads me to what I REALLY want to say ---------------
As someone who is hospitable to *wanderers*, I would never gun them down in the street if they did me wrong. If they forced their way into my house to do me harm, violating my space, stealing my stuff, WHATEVER, I would not even think twice before pulling the trigger. Anyone (uninvited into my home) who wishes ill for me and mine will be looking down the barrel of a gun, and rightfully so.
What you have done here on this board -- is VERBALLY GUN DOWN FOLKS ON THE STREET.
(and I say this with all the love-of-God-in-the-renewed-mind-in-manifestation I have)
They were not *univited into your home* (you logged on, right?)
You're *on the street* (open forum, world-wide internet, etc., right?)
It's your choice to be here (no one forced you to register, did they?)
*Persona non grata* doesn't apply to computers, unless you hit the *ignore* key, and then you don't have to hear them anyway.
Personally -- I like you, and what you stand for even if I don't agree with all of it. However, I take exception to that fact when you start *pulling the trigger* outside your own house.
If you continue to do so, you should expect to be called the names like *vicious* and *attack* mentioned ealier, and you'll have nothing to say, since you are *on the street*.
Soooooooo -- I suggest hospitality over animosity. Works every time. ;)
When dialogue flows, learning is enhanced -- for both parties involved. B)
David
(ps -- I have my actual name there beside my posts too!!)
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