Never did really believe in Hell...used to believe in "gravedom", but I've returned to my pre-TWI belief that we are all spiritual beings having a human experience. The physical body dies, but the spirit lives on...we are infinite souls in temporary bodies, spiritual beings who are always connected to God. It's our continual choice while we are in this body of whether we plug into the higher/faster "God-energy" or the lower/slower "material energy" of the world. When the human experience ends I don't believe in hell, or eternal torment (or heaven either), just continuing spiritual energy on many planes, in many dimensions.
I don't believe in "hell". I do believe in what the bible calls the lake of fire, which contrary to popular notion is not a torture chamber. The whole point of this lake of fire is that of purification. The "fire" is a figure of speech. You may have heard of the expression "a trial by fire". In other words, a trial that may be somewhat stressful, but has a redeeming quality, a learning experience if you will. I believe that this trial by fire is not something we have to wait until death to experience. The trials of life can serve very nicely. Such a fire is not for all eternity. I have had many say that if there is a hell, this world we live in is our hell, our ONLY hell. There is no other one.
Also the notion of eternal torment is a bunch of garbage. Do anyone who is a father punish their children for one infraction for the rest of their natural born lives? Hell no! (no pun intended :) ).
As far as annihilation is concerned, is that necessary? I guess under the notion of that vs. eternal torment, then I would have to say yes. However it is totally unecessary to annihilate anyone. If there is anyone who is incorrigible, it's only in respect to what WE as humans can do. In God's eyes, there is no such a thing as an incorrigible person.
As far as I have been able to tell, a fiery burning hell for the enemies of a vengeful God originated with Zozotrianism before Mithras in the Persian religion. It didn't even exist in the OT and was borrowed later on and adapted to the Christian religion.
No, I don't believe in hell as an actual place. I think it was and is a mighty tool to keep the masses in check and in line doing what the ruling classes have wanted them to do all along. I base that on readings and how the fear of hell and god kept the slave classes and peasant, serf classes in compliance with their lousy status and treatment in life as they were told it was the will of god to put them in their particular social calling and that if faithful, they would escape the fires of hell and be rewarded.
Hell is a very good motivational tool, at least for the good people who want to do well enough in life. Hell has no affect on the truly evil and hurtful people as it never stopped them from reeking havoc and mayhem where ever they go.
And no, a person doesn't have to believe in hell to be good.
Also the notion of eternal torment is a bunch of garbage. Do anyone who is a father punish their children for one infraction for the rest of their natural born lives? Hell no! (no pun intended :) ).
No -- I don't believe in eternal torment either. However -- if you look at the physical properties of fire, it consumes and destroys rather than preserving. :)
No -- I don't believe in eternal torment either. However -- if you look at the physical properties of fire, it consumes and destroys rather than preserving. :)
David
True David, but because of that, fire also purifies. Gold is purified in fire. So is steel. Fire is also used in oil refining. It also cooks our food. How, by destroying impurities that would make eating certain raw foods (particularly meats) harmful. In fact the Black Plague which infected London during the in the mid 1660s ended with the Great Fire of London, which destroyed the parasites that caused the plague. Can you imagine garbage and sewage that has not been subjected to fire? Think of the pestilences it would cause. Therefore I think maybe you underestimate the value of consumption and destruction by not crediting the fire with purification, which is brought out by destruction and consumption.
In short, fire only destroys things that are impure.
You are in fact correct David, but it goes way beyond the fact that it consumes and destroys.
I would tend to agree with your notion that it's not a perservative though, however I can see how some people would think this way. The scriptures talks about things being "salted with fire". Salt is most definitely a preservative, and was the way they preserved meats before the advent of refrigeration.
Furthermore I believe we all have our date with the fire, as God himself is that fire in question. :) And NO, it's not gonna burn us to a crisp :D After all, the fire in question is a divine fire, not a physical one. Just for the record, a physical fire cannot hurt spirits anyway, and Satan definitely is not harmed by a physical fire.
According to the grace of God given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building upon it. But each one must be careful how he builds upon it, for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one's work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.
I would say I have come to basically the same conclusion you have. I wouldn't place hell has the only motivator for getting the poor/masses to do what "leaders" want them to do. Heaven is just as much a fantasy motivator, along with the saying, "it's God's will."
I would say I have come to basically the same conclusion you have. I wouldn't place hell has the only motivator for getting the poor/masses to do what "leaders" want them to do. Heaven is just as much a fantasy motivator, along with the saying, "it's God's will."
Which must be the same books I've been reading. ;)
I've been beginning to see things in a whole different light after reading said books. :unsure:
LDS believe that those persons who choose not to do the right, break their promises to God or otherwise live desolute lives, live in a kingdom FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR AWAY where the light of God and Christ is seen only as a twilight (sorry Shriek).
There murder, and envy, strife and mayhem hold sway and they who are sent there are given up to the fruit of their earthly lives living in squalor and crime forever with a knowledge of what they have lost with that glimmer of far light a constant reminder
The Lake of Fire is reserved for Satan and his minions. A minion being one who actively serves Satan. That means a deliberate choice to serve SAtan just as one makes a deliberate choice to serve Christ.
Never figured out how you could simultaneously lose Eternal life yet have eternal life to spend in HELL
If you are dead and don't have eternal life you won't know or feel anything so it would be really pointless to be sent somewhere to feel pain and anquish, wouldn't it???
Oh Gawd..why didn't I expect that from TL..after getting baptised for Hitler now we have 'hell' as a 'planet' where one can spend the rest of eternity in a 'Harlem ghetto type' existence..I think Joseph Smith must have been harvesting some good 'sh**' in his backyard !!
Kevlar is correct! Kevlar- thick but swingingly so. B)
Now's it's your turn.
No wait, wrong forum, wrong thread.
Now if only I could think of a song with "a$$" in it for Allan.
Actually, Allan, I shouldn't. You gave me a good laugh. You make light of her beliefs while, to me, your beliefs seems just as drug indused if not more so seeing as you defend your dillusion with much more blind vigor. :huh:
"In the after life, you will be headed for the serious strife. Now you make the scene all day, but tomorrow there'll be HELL to pay."
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2fortheroad
Never did really believe in Hell...used to believe in "gravedom", but I've returned to my pre-TWI belief that we are all spiritual beings having a human experience. The physical body dies, but the spirit lives on...we are infinite souls in temporary bodies, spiritual beings who are always connected to God. It's our continual choice while we are in this body of whether we plug into the higher/faster "God-energy" or the lower/slower "material energy" of the world. When the human experience ends I don't believe in hell, or eternal torment (or heaven either), just continuing spiritual energy on many planes, in many dimensions.
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CKnapp3
I don't believe in "hell". I do believe in what the bible calls the lake of fire, which contrary to popular notion is not a torture chamber. The whole point of this lake of fire is that of purification. The "fire" is a figure of speech. You may have heard of the expression "a trial by fire". In other words, a trial that may be somewhat stressful, but has a redeeming quality, a learning experience if you will. I believe that this trial by fire is not something we have to wait until death to experience. The trials of life can serve very nicely. Such a fire is not for all eternity. I have had many say that if there is a hell, this world we live in is our hell, our ONLY hell. There is no other one.
Also the notion of eternal torment is a bunch of garbage. Do anyone who is a father punish their children for one infraction for the rest of their natural born lives? Hell no! (no pun intended :) ).
As far as annihilation is concerned, is that necessary? I guess under the notion of that vs. eternal torment, then I would have to say yes. However it is totally unecessary to annihilate anyone. If there is anyone who is incorrigible, it's only in respect to what WE as humans can do. In God's eyes, there is no such a thing as an incorrigible person.
Chuck
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Samurai
As far as I have been able to tell, a fiery burning hell for the enemies of a vengeful God originated with Zozotrianism before Mithras in the Persian religion. It didn't even exist in the OT and was borrowed later on and adapted to the Christian religion.
No, I don't believe in hell as an actual place. I think it was and is a mighty tool to keep the masses in check and in line doing what the ruling classes have wanted them to do all along. I base that on readings and how the fear of hell and god kept the slave classes and peasant, serf classes in compliance with their lousy status and treatment in life as they were told it was the will of god to put them in their particular social calling and that if faithful, they would escape the fires of hell and be rewarded.
Hell is a very good motivational tool, at least for the good people who want to do well enough in life. Hell has no affect on the truly evil and hurtful people as it never stopped them from reeking havoc and mayhem where ever they go.
And no, a person doesn't have to believe in hell to be good.
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dmiller
No -- I don't believe in eternal torment either. However -- if you look at the physical properties of fire, it consumes and destroys rather than preserving. :)
David
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CKnapp3
True David, but because of that, fire also purifies. Gold is purified in fire. So is steel. Fire is also used in oil refining. It also cooks our food. How, by destroying impurities that would make eating certain raw foods (particularly meats) harmful. In fact the Black Plague which infected London during the in the mid 1660s ended with the Great Fire of London, which destroyed the parasites that caused the plague. Can you imagine garbage and sewage that has not been subjected to fire? Think of the pestilences it would cause. Therefore I think maybe you underestimate the value of consumption and destruction by not crediting the fire with purification, which is brought out by destruction and consumption.
In short, fire only destroys things that are impure.
You are in fact correct David, but it goes way beyond the fact that it consumes and destroys.
I would tend to agree with your notion that it's not a perservative though, however I can see how some people would think this way. The scriptures talks about things being "salted with fire". Salt is most definitely a preservative, and was the way they preserved meats before the advent of refrigeration.
Furthermore I believe we all have our date with the fire, as God himself is that fire in question. :) And NO, it's not gonna burn us to a crisp :D After all, the fire in question is a divine fire, not a physical one. Just for the record, a physical fire cannot hurt spirits anyway, and Satan definitely is not harmed by a physical fire.
Chuck
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markomalley
I Cor 3:10ff
Fire purifies.
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TheInvisibleDan
I don't know whether or not there ever was a subterranean dimension called "hell", but if there ever was,
the walls of its belly became irreversably breached upon Death's attempt to swallow the Spirit of our Savior.
Everything Death eats nowadays, he can't hold down for too long.
Even despite Death's desperate measure to chop up souls in a blender to mix
into a spicy Pepto-Bismo cocktail, which only made him sicker.
Don't invite Death to your parties if you value your carpeting.
He's no fun to have around.
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CKnapp3
LOL Danny! :lol:
Well, its good to know I will be upCHUCKed (no pun intended) :lol:
Chuck
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def59
I believe in a literal hell. It is designed for Satan and his angels who rebelled against God. Humans who go there will not be able to handle it.
How does one get there?
By rejecting the infinite glory of the Father. That rejection condemns a man to eternal separation, utter blackness, a lake of fire.
The finite number of sins we commit here only make our hell worse or better than someone else.
All will be forgiven if one accepts Jesus as their Messiah, their Savior and his plan for Atonement.
God wants all men to be saved, and everyone who calls upon his name will be saved. So why are you still waiting?
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Mark Sanguinetti
We had a long discussion on this pertaining to Universalism. It is a good read. Here is the link from Grease Spot Cafe.
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=5186
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GT
Samurai,
We must be reading the same books. ;)
I would say I have come to basically the same conclusion you have. I wouldn't place hell has the only motivator for getting the poor/masses to do what "leaders" want them to do. Heaven is just as much a fantasy motivator, along with the saying, "it's God's will."
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def59
Immature people see hell as a motivator to escape wrath. Rather we should walk toward heaven and Christ, seeking to Glorify God.
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Oakspear
I do not believe in a hell, literal or figurative, nor do I believe that there is a Satan
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def59
Did you not meet LCM?
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Brother Speed
I found this a really good read. Check it out.
http://www.ptm.org/03PT/MayJun/GAcommentary.htm
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dmiller
Bro Speed -- Uh-oh!!! Just perused it a bit!
Better go back and look at the rest of it! :D
David
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Oakspear
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lindyhopper
The D and the A and the M and the N and the A and the T and the I-O-N, lose your face, lose your name, then you get fitted for a suit of FLAME!
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Kevlar2000
Lindy,
Squirrel Nut Zippers, correct?
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Belle
Which must be the same books I've been reading. ;)
I've been beginning to see things in a whole different light after reading said books. :unsure:
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Allan
Wayne Clapp @ CFFM taught one of the best 'exposes' on hell yhat I have ever heard..I think it was entitled 'is hell a place of eternal torment'
Part of it along the lines of the fire burning till nothing left to consume, and the greek words for 'forever' etc..
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templelady
LDS believe that those persons who choose not to do the right, break their promises to God or otherwise live desolute lives, live in a kingdom FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR AWAY where the light of God and Christ is seen only as a twilight (sorry Shriek).
There murder, and envy, strife and mayhem hold sway and they who are sent there are given up to the fruit of their earthly lives living in squalor and crime forever with a knowledge of what they have lost with that glimmer of far light a constant reminder
The Lake of Fire is reserved for Satan and his minions. A minion being one who actively serves Satan. That means a deliberate choice to serve SAtan just as one makes a deliberate choice to serve Christ.
Never figured out how you could simultaneously lose Eternal life yet have eternal life to spend in HELL
If you are dead and don't have eternal life you won't know or feel anything so it would be really pointless to be sent somewhere to feel pain and anquish, wouldn't it???
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Allan
Oh Gawd..why didn't I expect that from TL..after getting baptised for Hitler now we have 'hell' as a 'planet' where one can spend the rest of eternity in a 'Harlem ghetto type' existence..I think Joseph Smith must have been harvesting some good 'sh**' in his backyard !!
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lindyhopper
Kevlar is correct! Kevlar- thick but swingingly so. B)
Now's it's your turn.
No wait, wrong forum, wrong thread.
Now if only I could think of a song with "a$$" in it for Allan.
Actually, Allan, I shouldn't. You gave me a good laugh. You make light of her beliefs while, to me, your beliefs seems just as drug indused if not more so seeing as you defend your dillusion with much more blind vigor. :huh:
"In the after life, you will be headed for the serious strife. Now you make the scene all day, but tomorrow there'll be HELL to pay."
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