I can't remember exactly what I heard, but I thought one of the tv newscasters said, before Katrina, that Cat 4 was the worst on the scale, that a Cat 5 had never been experienced yet.
Is Cat 5 a new category?
Will the NWS make a new category if the next one is stronger than Cat 5? Where can I get this information?
PMosh, I've been thinking about you and your wife, and our other Texans, and hoping you were all okay. Glad you made it to San Antonio. And the rest of you, please do check in as soon as you can so we know you're okay.
DMiller, put yourself in PMosh's shoes and please lighten up. You said keep politics out of it and then went into your own political rant.
I don't even know if gasoline goes straight from the refineries to the gas stations, but it should have occurred to whoever's responsible that the evacuation of a gezillion people by car, bus and truck just might have required upping the supply at some point. Duh.
Linda, sorry to interrupt, but at this juncture, I believe all the officials in Texas, along with the citizens of SE Texas, need to be seriously and heartily patted on the back. While you're right that there are lessons to be learned for the next time, the job they did was almost textbook in its nature. Compared to the response of the local officials in Louisiana, its night and day.
And, although Katrina probably provided some good motivation for people to react (which helped matters), the fact that there were actually preparations in place and the fact that the plans had been exercised and practiced for MONTHS and YEARS beforehand really was evident in Texas.
If you compare the responses in Texas, Mississippi, and Alabama to the response in Louisiana, you can absolutely see the importance of local/state government preparations to a successful response and recovery effort. (Speaking non-politically here), I hope that the remainder of states and the remainder of us as individuals take the lessons from here and make sure our plans are adequate and in place, in case they are needed.
As an example, I really question our local governments' ability to effectively evacuate the DC metro area if needed. The traffic jams leading out of Houston would pale in comparison to what would be seen on 95, 66, and 270 leading out of DC if the DC metro area ever had to be quickly evacuated. I hope our local governments are doing some serious re-looking at their plans.
It had to be a money grabbing plot, not that it would take several hours if not a couple days to shut down a huge refinery
I am aware of how long it takes to shut down a refinery, but they were shutting some down way ahead of the storm. I am also aware that some refineries that are not in Texas were being shut down before both Rita and Katrina in an attempt to raise gas prices. If you don't believe that these things happen, then you really need to learn a little bit about the industry.
Apparently the plot didn't work so well. Note the chart of wholesale gasoline futures pricing below:
Note the spike for Rita was not nearly as high as for Katrina. And when it was apparent that Rita's bite was not going to be that bad, the prices started immediately going down. You can read the analysis of it here.
Oh, and btw, I'm not trying to defend the oil companies. But the price spikes are just the way the market works.
The real crime is that we've allowed over a quarter of the country's oil refining capability to be located in that immediate area. It is a HUGE vulnerability that needs to be fixed. If something happened there that knocked a sizable portion of that capability off-line, I'd hate to see the impact on the economy.
Agreed Mark,
Your allusion to 'prepare for the worst, believe for the best'.
also -- Politics to another thread.
I agree, but should assertions on this thread go unanswered?
Nuts to that Mr. P-Mosh!! I'm glad you and yours are ok -- truely I am. But do us all a favor, and leave the political crap behind. There aren't enough refineries in this country because of the greenies who think that taking anything from *Mother Earth* is comparable to rape.
Actually, it's the oil companies that don't want to build new refineries. I've read that we've not had a refinery built in this country since before I was born. Want to know why? It's expensive. No company wants to pay that expense, especially when the only potential effect would be to lower the price of their product. Spending lots of money to make your goods less profitable is idiotic from a business sense.
Also, environmentalists have so very little political influence that using them as a scapegoat is laughable.
If we had more refineries built, if we had drilling in Alaska allowed, if we had this, if we had that -- you wouldn't have to shoot your mouth off about the executives of oil companies.
Ok, then find me a company willing to build a refinery, and find some proof that those proposing the drilling in Alaska would guarantee that the oil only be sold and used in the U.S., and not sold to China. The whole thing sounded to me like a plot to sell more of our oil to China and Japan, which is where a huge amount of U.S. oil goes. Even the stuff we import we often export to those nations at a much higher price than we could sell it for here.
Hmmmmm -- sounds to me like you are actually blaming them for the hurricane as well. Well if ya want to do so -- have at it, and make a fool of yourself.
No, if you want to make up stories to make you feel better then go ahead. What I blame them for is their risky "shut down refineries for a little while for trumped up maintenance in order to make gas more scarce and more profitable" scheme which has hurt all of us in the wake of two hurricanes that they apparently didn't expect.
In case you didn't notice (tongue in cheek here) -- a major storm happened, and people became casualties as a result.
I did notice, and having gone through the evacuation I saw hundreds if not thousands of people stranded on the sides of the roads and literally fighting each other at gas stations over what little gasoline could be found. If there was sufficient gasoline, this whole thing would not have been such a problem.
When you can *read me from the book* that executives of major corporations were a direct result of the *casuality list* -- perhaps I will pay attentiion.
What book do you want to hear it from? Apparently you and others here have learned nothing from Enron, and how their operations are standard business practices rather than an exception.
Still, start with these memos which lists some of the discussion about making money by shutting down refineries. Like I said, it's a common business practice in the energy industry in general.
Until you do so -- your words are but smoke in the wind.
David
Most likely you will never be convinced because it would be a big change to your world view to find out just how backstabbing and sneaky the people in charge of our nation's oil are. Unfortunately, the more I get involved with the business the worse it looks. There are plenty of good people involved as well, most of the people I work with are good folks who care about others. Unfortunately though, enough bad people are in high positions in companies that they do come up with "creative" ways to make profits, such as shutting down refineries for longer periods of time than necessary.
"Although it didn't say why he did it...it's pretty obvious when you think about it.."
Actually Bush and Rove and Cheney came up with this second hurrican to overshadow the Supreme Court nominees.....this way he could just slip them in the back door when everybody was precoccupied....
"Although it didn't say why he did it...it's pretty obvious when you think about it.."
Actually Bush and Rove and Cheney came up with this second hurrican to overshadow the Supreme Court nominees.....this way he could just slip them in the back door when everybody was precoccupied....
I don't even know if gasoline goes straight from the refineries to the gas stations, but it should have occurred to whoever's responsible that the evacuation of a gezillion people by car, bus and truck just might have required upping the supply at some point. Duh.
It doesn't go straight from refineries to gas stations, any more than other products go straight from plants to stores.
The evacuation went very well, P-mosh's diatribe notwithstanding.
I can't remember exactly what I heard, but I thought one of the tv newscasters said, before Katrina, that Cat 4 was the worst on the scale, that a Cat 5 had never been experienced yet.
Is Cat 5 a new category?
Will the NWS make a new category if the next one is stronger than Cat 5? Where can I get this information?
You might have heard a newscaster say almost anything. Many of them are idiots. They didn't change the scale for Katrina, and Katrina was not the most powerful hurricane on record. It was about the same as Carla in 1961, which I remember well, and others that I don't have on the top of my head right now.
My wife and I got back today after evacuating to La Grange (near Austin). Though our trip wasn't as harrowing as Mr. P's, what should have been a two-and-a-half-hour trip took nine hours. (And my car has essentially no A/C.) Houston's mayor wanted to show that he wasn't an idiot like New Orleans', so he pretty much told EVERYBODY to evacuate, demonstrating that he was, in fact, a completely different kind of idiot. People in NW Houston were evacuating, blocking roads that people who were actually in danger needed to use. Our kids (in Houston) had the good sense to stay put. Had the storm come in right over Freeport, our house would have been bombed, but the kids would have been fine.
Good news: absolutely no damage to our home. In fact, I think the electricity only winked out for a short time. Now to get those boards off the windows!
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Ttessa
I can't remember exactly what I heard, but I thought one of the tv newscasters said, before Katrina, that Cat 4 was the worst on the scale, that a Cat 5 had never been experienced yet.
Is Cat 5 a new category?
Will the NWS make a new category if the next one is stronger than Cat 5? Where can I get this information?
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oilfieldmedic
If there is anyone who needs anything and it is with my ability, please ask.
I have been through Hurricane Ivan in Gulf Shores, I ginosko!
oilfieldmedic@hotmail.com
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markomalley
Linda, sorry to interrupt, but at this juncture, I believe all the officials in Texas, along with the citizens of SE Texas, need to be seriously and heartily patted on the back. While you're right that there are lessons to be learned for the next time, the job they did was almost textbook in its nature. Compared to the response of the local officials in Louisiana, its night and day.
And, although Katrina probably provided some good motivation for people to react (which helped matters), the fact that there were actually preparations in place and the fact that the plans had been exercised and practiced for MONTHS and YEARS beforehand really was evident in Texas.
If you compare the responses in Texas, Mississippi, and Alabama to the response in Louisiana, you can absolutely see the importance of local/state government preparations to a successful response and recovery effort. (Speaking non-politically here), I hope that the remainder of states and the remainder of us as individuals take the lessons from here and make sure our plans are adequate and in place, in case they are needed.
As an example, I really question our local governments' ability to effectively evacuate the DC metro area if needed. The traffic jams leading out of Houston would pale in comparison to what would be seen on 95, 66, and 270 leading out of DC if the DC metro area ever had to be quickly evacuated. I hope our local governments are doing some serious re-looking at their plans.
If that's politics, I'm sorry.
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Mister P-Mosh
I am aware of how long it takes to shut down a refinery, but they were shutting some down way ahead of the storm. I am also aware that some refineries that are not in Texas were being shut down before both Rita and Katrina in an attempt to raise gas prices. If you don't believe that these things happen, then you really need to learn a little bit about the industry.
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Brother Speed
Agreed Mark,
Your allusion to 'prepare for the worst, believe for the best'.
also -- Politics to another thread.
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markomalley
Apparently the plot didn't work so well. Note the chart of wholesale gasoline futures pricing below:
Note the spike for Rita was not nearly as high as for Katrina. And when it was apparent that Rita's bite was not going to be that bad, the prices started immediately going down. You can read the analysis of it here.
Oh, and btw, I'm not trying to defend the oil companies. But the price spikes are just the way the market works.
The real crime is that we've allowed over a quarter of the country's oil refining capability to be located in that immediate area. It is a HUGE vulnerability that needs to be fixed. If something happened there that knocked a sizable portion of that capability off-line, I'd hate to see the impact on the economy.
I agree, but should assertions on this thread go unanswered?
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Mister P-Mosh
Actually, it's the oil companies that don't want to build new refineries. I've read that we've not had a refinery built in this country since before I was born. Want to know why? It's expensive. No company wants to pay that expense, especially when the only potential effect would be to lower the price of their product. Spending lots of money to make your goods less profitable is idiotic from a business sense.
Also, environmentalists have so very little political influence that using them as a scapegoat is laughable.
Ok, then find me a company willing to build a refinery, and find some proof that those proposing the drilling in Alaska would guarantee that the oil only be sold and used in the U.S., and not sold to China. The whole thing sounded to me like a plot to sell more of our oil to China and Japan, which is where a huge amount of U.S. oil goes. Even the stuff we import we often export to those nations at a much higher price than we could sell it for here.
No, if you want to make up stories to make you feel better then go ahead. What I blame them for is their risky "shut down refineries for a little while for trumped up maintenance in order to make gas more scarce and more profitable" scheme which has hurt all of us in the wake of two hurricanes that they apparently didn't expect.
I did notice, and having gone through the evacuation I saw hundreds if not thousands of people stranded on the sides of the roads and literally fighting each other at gas stations over what little gasoline could be found. If there was sufficient gasoline, this whole thing would not have been such a problem.
What book do you want to hear it from? Apparently you and others here have learned nothing from Enron, and how their operations are standard business practices rather than an exception.
Still, start with these memos which lists some of the discussion about making money by shutting down refineries. Like I said, it's a common business practice in the energy industry in general.
It's also why eight governors are asking for an investigation into oil company profits in the wake of Katrina.
Most likely you will never be convinced because it would be a big change to your world view to find out just how backstabbing and sneaky the people in charge of our nation's oil are. Unfortunately, the more I get involved with the business the worse it looks. There are plenty of good people involved as well, most of the people I work with are good folks who care about others. Unfortunately though, enough bad people are in high positions in companies that they do come up with "creative" ways to make profits, such as shutting down refineries for longer periods of time than necessary.
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outofdafog
QUOTE:
"Although it didn't say why he did it...it's pretty obvious when you think about it.."
Actually Bush and Rove and Cheney came up with this second hurrican to overshadow the Supreme Court nominees.....this way he could just slip them in the back door when everybody was precoccupied....
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markomalley
ROTFLMAO!!!!!
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wingnut
A life in oil and gas and I don't know how it works, yeah right
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outofdafog
Seriously Mr. P - I hope you and yours are all safe - that whole highway deal looked like a complete nightmare
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outofdafog
Mark :D
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LG
It doesn't go straight from refineries to gas stations, any more than other products go straight from plants to stores.
The evacuation went very well, P-mosh's diatribe notwithstanding.
You might have heard a newscaster say almost anything. Many of them are idiots. They didn't change the scale for Katrina, and Katrina was not the most powerful hurricane on record. It was about the same as Carla in 1961, which I remember well, and others that I don't have on the top of my head right now.
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Pirate1974
Camille and Andrew were both Category 5s when they hit land.
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roadrunner123
Glad to hear people are safe -- tho very tired. Glad I have only been in storms with trees down and power off- not the floods.
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GeorgeStGeorge
My wife and I got back today after evacuating to La Grange (near Austin). Though our trip wasn't as harrowing as Mr. P's, what should have been a two-and-a-half-hour trip took nine hours. (And my car has essentially no A/C.) Houston's mayor wanted to show that he wasn't an idiot like New Orleans', so he pretty much told EVERYBODY to evacuate, demonstrating that he was, in fact, a completely different kind of idiot. People in NW Houston were evacuating, blocking roads that people who were actually in danger needed to use. Our kids (in Houston) had the good sense to stay put. Had the storm come in right over Freeport, our house would have been bombed, but the kids would have been fine.
Good news: absolutely no damage to our home. In fact, I think the electricity only winked out for a short time. Now to get those boards off the windows!
George
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