The Bible teaches that out of affliction we will call upon the LORD. Most people that come to God and Jesus do so out of personal turmoil. The Bible also teaches that we more than anyone will suffer tribulations, because that builds character, and the end result is that we are not ashamed to call upon God to be our help in time of trouble.
Hebrews teaches that when we come to God, He WILL scourge us, and He will chastise us, and He will correct us. When we are corrected by God, it is not pleasant, the Bible says so, so He, if the Bible is true, must bring drama in our lives. To make us strong, and to take all pride away, so that we can call on God out of a pure heart, and not be ashamed to do so.
Thanks for what you're saying, but its slightly off the point. Hebrews 12:4-11 does say what you claim, but it is in light of children receiving discipline, thus implying that the child did something deserving of the chastisement.
However, that does not mesh with the Colossians quote that I was referring to above. It also does not account for why a saintly person, meek and holy, who has no need of chastisement, still sometimes is suffering. St. Therese of Liseaux is a classic example of this: if you ever read her writings and accounts of people who knew her, a more holy person could not really be imagined. Her nickname, the Little Flower, was well deserved. Yet she suffered from tuberculosis for years before she died of that horrible, wasting disease. I can guarantee that she was in NO need of any kind of chastisement...and likewise I am sure that many of us have met wonderful, holy protestant people who have undergone similar afflictions, without any kind of perceptable reason.
Even so, we still have to look at Colossians 1:24 and its implications.
His post on the bottom of page 2 was what inspired me to post what I'd worked. The crux is: what's up with Col 1:24? (see my first post)
See, Howard accurately (imho) identified the cause of the suffering...no arguments. But why are Christians subject to it? As has been pointed out by many...there are some who are afflicted and some who aren't. Degrees of holiness have little or no correlation (so you can't use the cop-out that a person is "out of fellowship")...
Sure, it made Howard tougher. He has drawn strength from his affliction. Many people grow closer to God through affliction and persecution. I am very happy for him for this (really am). But one thing that he hasn't gone into is contained in the scriptures I quoted above:
"if we are afflicted, it is for your comfort and salvation"
"always carrying about in the body the dying of Jesus"
"Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions."
Do you see the relationship between the persecution/affliction of Jesus and the affliction that we experience now?
That part was not covered by Howard (HCW).
The real question is that I'm wondering about the connection between the affliction in the body, persecutions, etc., that we see and the reality of the mystical body of Christ? (Thus posting the example from Revelation) Is that the explanation for Col 1:24?
Does that make the "Body of Christ" a much, much deeper concept than what we were taught? Is it more than a metaphor to explain inter-dependence in friendship?
The motivation behind this is that my wife is going through a lot right now. How to make something good out of something that, frankly, sucks.
I should have been more clear...the opportunity to make some spiritual good out of something that, frankly, sucks.
As I've been emphasizing throughout, that one verse in Colossians (1:24), really is key to the process. The other key is the relationship to the Body of Christ. Making those two "fit" in my mind is the trick.
Look through the verses I've cited above...and there are more verses talking relating our suffering to Christ that I haven't cited. The relationship is interesting, to say the least.
"if we are afflicted, it is for your comfort and salvation"
"always carrying about in the body the dying of Jesus"
"Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions."
this imo is a bit different then physical suffering, but involves changes within
afflicted for your comfort and salvation does not fit with physical suffering but spiritual changes within and the results afterwards
21And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; 24Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body’s sake, which is the church:
Paul suffered for them
he gave of himself
that power of Christ in word and deed and truth
which is work and takes a bit out of ya
but when you give you receive
and the point is giving...that they may receive
pulling yourself out of the picture and putting God first
this is worshiping God in spirit and in truth
by speaking the language, the toungue of the spirit
mixing it up..of men and angels-his angels, Paul's
Affliction may also possibly lead to the glory of martyrdom, dying as our Lord had died - in imitation of Christ. A partaking in His glory, because we offer ourselves in sacrifice as He did.
He offered up His life for us, and we offer up our life for Him, even if unto death.
And many early Christians -from a variety of movements - did precisely that.
Suffering and martyrdom is also a exhibition of one's faith and conviction - that even if the world afflict and destroy our bodies - it cannot our souls.
Another passage that stands out in mind - that despite all his sufferings and afflictions, Paul in his "weakness" was "made strong".
One personal "revelation" to me (though certainly not unique to me) upon leaving the Way was recognizing how central "the cross of Christ" played in Paul's theology - and yes, very mystical (and "transcendant", as Mark mentioned) and even cosmic in its proportions.
Paul attributed the creation of a "new humanity" directly to the cross.
The abolishment of the elemental powers of the universe, and the cancellation of any authority they may have held over our souls.
And much much more.
The cross is both a symbol of great suffering - yet greater triumph.
See, I'm at sort of an impasse. I've gotten to the point where I understand (with my head) the concepts involved. But its extremely complex and my understanding is not such that I am competent to explain it to somebody so that they'll be able to understand it. And the key to this understanding is an understanding of the spiritual side of the ancient liturgies (the Latin Mass, the eastern Divine Liturgies, etc.). And although I don't mind being freely identified as the token Catholic on this board (I know there are a few others, but I think I'm the only one who posts on Doctrinal), I don't want to be perceived as prostletyzing. And if I start to go into that, I'm very concerned that I will be perceived as prostletyzing. This IS, after all, not only not a Christian board, it is most definitely a non-Catholic board.
Frankly, I'm sort of smarting still from some of the vicious, hurtful posts put on gsc after the death of JPII. I am not sure that I want to open myself up to being the recipient of more of those type of posts. If I start explaining the spiritual/theological meaning behind the Eucharist, I am frankly concerned that I will have to wade through that stuff (again). Its not that I mind going into an ontological explanation of the theology behind this, its just that I don't know that I want to deal with the (likely) scathing Jack Chick-type pushback that I'll likely receive. (Legit questions/objections/concerns are fine, no problem, but maliciousness is another story altogether)
So I'm treading very carefully at this juncture.
Let it suffice for right now that my understanding that I'm gaining show a direct connection between the contents of Col 1:24 and other verses about Christian persecution, suffering, etc. and the metaphysical reality of the mystical Body of Christ, as described in 1 Cor 12 and so on.
well perhaps setting aside what you think you may know and let Christ work in you with what you already have in your heart. let him put a few things together for you, it's a redeeming experience
study-study-study...pfff-there's a time and place for it
there is also a time for God to work and you won't need a book
remember Jesus said
search the scriptures for in them you think you have eternal life
and there was Jesus standing right in front of their face
sometimes you gotta close the books to let the spirit work
howdy folks here at the new home for the Spot-O-Grease.
The topic of suffering was not one we talked about alot in TWI.
In the years since I stopped attending their stuff I have spent a lot of time studying suffering and living through suffering.
One of the biggest impediments to getting a better grip on it (from my perspective NOW) were the methods used by TWI in their study of the scriptures.
IMHO, TWI got off on error-prone tangents when they "analyzed" the "tree" while remaining unlearned, ignorant or in flat-out denial of the surrounding "forest".
Studying the context of a set of verses in light of the SUBJECT is hard to do when there are preconcieved notions from out-of-context word studies.
The "context of suffering" has to be grasped as well as all the little word studies.
-----
Early on in the history of this thread Rachel made some points that I think need reconsidering.
The book of Hebrews, as well as other NT literature, does talk a lot about suffering and enduring in the context of learning and instruction.
Jesus learned obedience by the things which he endured.
Jesus obviously had no personal sins or guilt to "justify" his sufferings.
Jesus is an example of a son learning from his Father.
Jesis is an example of a slave obeying his master.
"Not my will, but your will" he said.
A slave was considered an extension of his Lord's WILL.
Jesus humbled himself and took upon himself the form of a servant.
Obedient through his whole life including the suffering before and during the Cross.
Now that Jesus has been made Lord, and we accept and confess him as Lord,
We are now the slaves being instructed to be instruments of our Lord's WILL.
A slave was usually instructed in specific tasks and vocations.
As the Body of Christ fulfills the purpose of representing Christ, who represents God,
the unity of Christ is being expressed throughout the VARIETY in the members of the one body of Christ.
Every great design will express unity as well as variety.
God's great design for the ages includes each one of us (VARIETY) possessing the life of Jesus (UNITY) but expressing it in our own lives as we are taught by our new Master Jesus.
Our new Master will teach us.
The learning process of a child may include elements of reproof and punishment.
Chastisement and instruction are tied together.
The perfecting of the saints is one of the goals.
Saintliness is a qualification for more instruction not less.
No one "saint" will be totally Christlike before we see him as he is, so we are all in need of instruction up until the very last moment.
However I do not think that God or Jesus send the oppression or the source of the suffering.
But God and Jesus do send the solutions, the skill to survive and respond.
Jeus had to perfect this before God could present it to us.
The instruction is learned as we take an actrive spiritual part in the way we respond to any adversity.
We are responsible for our actions taken in response, (response is part of the word response-ability [sic])
to all adverse situations.
Some adversity comes to one member of the body through another member of the body.
Some adversity comes from "non-believers".
Some adversity comes from life and nature and hurricanes and gravity, etc.
I don't believe God "sends" the adverse situation.
I do believe that he wants to instruct us in every single adverse (or pleasant) situation through his Son.
Suffering seems to be one of those perception words. Who's looking at it matters greatly. I've no doubt Paul's understanding of suffering was unlike any suffering I've done. And I can only imagine he believed his cause which was God's cause was worth any physical lack he did have, as the Bible clearly states. He had little in ways of possessions and traveled with no guarantees of any comfort in bedding and food. But his life had meaning and he knew it, he knew he had something far greater in the mix than to be concerned with the temporal physical discomforts.
I can't imagine he laid on the ground under a tree eating of figs and roots at times (I can surmise he must have had to in his travels) cursing his lot in life. Oh why haven't I high speed connections and an automatic car with air-conditioning.
It was the absence of his even considering his momentary discomfort that was so notable. His sufferings for the lack in the body not lack in Jesus Christ or what he had accomplished on the cross aided in the body being strengthened. Why did he have to, why do men and women of godly substance suffer today. Maybe because it doesn't mean to them what it may to me. Suffering isn't a burden to them, it's a joy.
Before my little sister died she had taken on a change in what she felt. I wouldn't listen to my mother fully for years due to my disagreement with thinking she was in heaven. But when I left twi in 02 I began to consider other peoples faiths as they spoke and even recognize mutual understandings that rather amazed me. Not twi understandings but things of God not confined to a faith. Because of this I finally allowed my mother to tell me of my sisters last days again. I'd heard her tell me before but with ears that refused to allow heaven in the equation. So I failed to really hear her.
She had moved on in her thinking days before she pulled her hand from my mothers and moaned as mother pleaded to God to make her whole. Josie had taken on peacefulness devoid of any noticeable pain important enough to her to ask my mother for powerful drugs that were available. And pain was what all the doctors had said she would be in at this phase. Josie was no saint, oh in my heart and every single person that ever met her she was though. In her lifetime she never had an enemy. None! And this little girl had a heart the size of the universe and had seen much loss. I can't tell you all she did truly suffer but the loss of a set of twins less than two days after birth and a boy only 7 days after his birth was some. And she was looking forward to seeing those babies she'd never gotten to raise. For her the boys she had brought into this world knew they had gotten all she could be as a mother (both now serving our country and one on second tour of Iraq while the other prepares to go). Truth be told I scolded her once for leaving the dinner dishes as she did while heading out with roller-skates in hand and she quickly looked back at me without breaking her stride and said Sissy, the dishes will be here when they are grown and gone. And off her and the boys went skating down the sidewalk. She knew she had been there for those boys that now would lose her but she knew they were secure in what love was. Her body was gone; she was unable to get out of bed. She was ready to move on. I can't blame her for that now, nor did I then for I had seen the great suffering she had done yet at her last days according to my mother she was at peace that her family would be taken care of and that she would see those babies's again. When she closed her eyes she didn't suffer, but we did. She hadn't suffered for days according to my mother.
She wasn't a saint but this is the best I can understand this thing. I don't understand why she was't healed in the first place but it seems to be part of life. But I do know in those last days according to my mothers reliving them again for me that she didn't think of suffering at all. I don't know. I'm just trying to fit new light of understanding into a head that sometimes needs to see examples to make it click. Even if in no way am I comparing the suffering of Josie with the suffering of Paul. Thanks for listening.
I, again, would like to highlight Col 1:24 (Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church,)
This concept of "filling up what is lacking" is an extremely powerful concept, I believe. If we really understood verses like "I am crucified with Christ," along with the above verse, would make a lot of people a lot more content with their lives. Imagine, what he is saying here is that he has the privilege of co-operating with Christ in the redemption of man (particularly the Church). This is not to say IN ANY WAY that Christ's sacrifice was not complete...so don't go there...but when we "put on Christ" and are "buried, in baptism, with Christ," I think that we need to set our vision to be a lot fuller.
If you look through all the New Testament epistles, you'll see again that Paul talks about identification with the Cross. He talks about us being members of the Body of Christ. And this dualism between the flesh and the interior reality of the new birth. The quote I mentioned from 2 Cor 4 is particularly applicable here. Particularly when one examines it in light of Romans 6ff. However, it takes on new meaning when you look at Col 1:24. It makes the reality of that one body more vivid (at least to me) than ever.
In regards to your sister, she led a very peaceful life and had a very peaceful death. She accepted the pain and suffering of her life with extreme grace and was all the better for it. Although she may not have perceived the redemptive qualities that her suffering had for the Body of Christ, she undoubtedly understood the message of the Cross. The suffering and pain that she endured as a member of Christ's Body I'm sure had some effect. What that effect was is, of course, beyond me. But I do know that it will be nice to see "face to face," rather than "through a glass, darkly," so that we'll see the spiritual reality beyond the physical apparation our senses can currently perceive.
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irisheyes
Awesome topic. It somewhat relates to what I've been wondering about; i.e., miracles. Why for some and not others?
It will require time to look into, but I'll be back!
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Rachel
The Bible teaches that out of affliction we will call upon the LORD. Most people that come to God and Jesus do so out of personal turmoil. The Bible also teaches that we more than anyone will suffer tribulations, because that builds character, and the end result is that we are not ashamed to call upon God to be our help in time of trouble.
Hebrews teaches that when we come to God, He WILL scourge us, and He will chastise us, and He will correct us. When we are corrected by God, it is not pleasant, the Bible says so, so He, if the Bible is true, must bring drama in our lives. To make us strong, and to take all pride away, so that we can call on God out of a pure heart, and not be ashamed to do so.
Rachel
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markomalley
Rachel,
Thanks for what you're saying, but its slightly off the point. Hebrews 12:4-11 does say what you claim, but it is in light of children receiving discipline, thus implying that the child did something deserving of the chastisement.
However, that does not mesh with the Colossians quote that I was referring to above. It also does not account for why a saintly person, meek and holy, who has no need of chastisement, still sometimes is suffering. St. Therese of Liseaux is a classic example of this: if you ever read her writings and accounts of people who knew her, a more holy person could not really be imagined. Her nickname, the Little Flower, was well deserved. Yet she suffered from tuberculosis for years before she died of that horrible, wasting disease. I can guarantee that she was in NO need of any kind of chastisement...and likewise I am sure that many of us have met wonderful, holy protestant people who have undergone similar afflictions, without any kind of perceptable reason.
Even so, we still have to look at Colossians 1:24 and its implications.
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irisheyes
Mark,
Please go to the bottom of page 2 of miracles for two replies by HCW. Perhaps that will shed some light for you. It did for me. IE
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CM
i know things are hard to deal with
Paul and others had the same as it is written
focusing on it (the suffering) doesn't help
there must be other ways to escape for now
although temporary, they do help
meditation is a good topic for consideration
there are many kinds to search out
i know how tough it can be
the pain is so great
and medications are not wrong to use
anything to get your mind at peace
so you can think clearly and find that
place in your mind where old things are forgotten
and new things are seen...
which will always be there for you
they always have been
here is where seek and you shall find
really is something sought after
tap into emotion which is spiritual
the spirit's nature is one of great emotion
as HCW pointed out on the miracles thread
giving is a very great help
i just can't say enough about giving
and i'm not talking about money to organizations
you give your life and everything you have to discover and loose youself into giving cuz God will return unto you...more then you can imagine
looking to take will not bring much
giving brings joy and this emotion is not to be underestamated. it sparks power in you deep within.
don't be foolish with giving, but give like a giving fool
emotions are real and there are genuine things that come from them.
look for how to help from anothers pov
is one suggestion
there are others that many know about..
love always
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markomalley
Irish,
His post on the bottom of page 2 was what inspired me to post what I'd worked. The crux is: what's up with Col 1:24? (see my first post)
See, Howard accurately (imho) identified the cause of the suffering...no arguments. But why are Christians subject to it? As has been pointed out by many...there are some who are afflicted and some who aren't. Degrees of holiness have little or no correlation (so you can't use the cop-out that a person is "out of fellowship")...
Sure, it made Howard tougher. He has drawn strength from his affliction. Many people grow closer to God through affliction and persecution. I am very happy for him for this (really am). But one thing that he hasn't gone into is contained in the scriptures I quoted above:
"if we are afflicted, it is for your comfort and salvation"
"always carrying about in the body the dying of Jesus"
"Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions."
Do you see the relationship between the persecution/affliction of Jesus and the affliction that we experience now?
That part was not covered by Howard (HCW).
The real question is that I'm wondering about the connection between the affliction in the body, persecutions, etc., that we see and the reality of the mystical body of Christ? (Thus posting the example from Revelation) Is that the explanation for Col 1:24?
Does that make the "Body of Christ" a much, much deeper concept than what we were taught? Is it more than a metaphor to explain inter-dependence in friendship?
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markomalley
CM,
Thanks for your words.
I said at the beginning of this thing:
I should have been more clear...the opportunity to make some spiritual good out of something that, frankly, sucks.
As I've been emphasizing throughout, that one verse in Colossians (1:24), really is key to the process. The other key is the relationship to the Body of Christ. Making those two "fit" in my mind is the trick.
Look through the verses I've cited above...and there are more verses talking relating our suffering to Christ that I haven't cited. The relationship is interesting, to say the least.
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CM
this imo is a bit different then physical suffering, but involves changes within
afflicted for your comfort and salvation does not fit with physical suffering but spiritual changes within and the results afterwards
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markomalley
sufferings: pathema
1) that which one suffers or has suffered
a) externally, a suffering, misfortune, calamity, evil, affliction
1) of the sufferings of Christ
2) also the afflictions which Christians must undergo in behalf of the same cause which Christ patiently endured
b) of an inward state, an affliction, passion
2) an enduring, undergoing, suffering
affliction: thlipsis
1) a pressing, pressing together, pressure
2) metaph. oppression, affliction, tribulation, distress, straits
lacking: husterema
1) deficiency, that which is lacking
2) in reference to property and resources, poverty, want, destitution
CM, you have a point. But based upon those definitions, it appears to include both what you're talking about and physical pain (imo).
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CM
and it does affect the physical...
remember Paul said he dies daily
this is about the one body
you have to look where you haven't looked yet
to get to "it is done"
there is suffering involved
but that comfort and salvation will be there
the suffering and the comfort and the salvation
cannot be separated in this life
the next which merges in and is the same
will end the suffering for the living
cuz that glory will be fully revealed
rest in love-that emotion will power up
patience hope longsuffering meekness gentleness and faith
tempered with the knowing that noone will need to teach to you. Christ is the comforter-the teacher...
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CM
21And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; 24Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body’s sake, which is the church:
Paul suffered for them
he gave of himself
that power of Christ in word and deed and truth
which is work and takes a bit out of ya
but when you give you receive
and the point is giving...that they may receive
pulling yourself out of the picture and putting God first
this is worshiping God in spirit and in truth
by speaking the language, the toungue of the spirit
mixing it up..of men and angels-his angels, Paul's
which stirred up the spirit of God within them
and they heard because they were looking..seeking
but without Love it will not work
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TheInvisibleDan
Affliction may also possibly lead to the glory of martyrdom, dying as our Lord had died - in imitation of Christ. A partaking in His glory, because we offer ourselves in sacrifice as He did.
He offered up His life for us, and we offer up our life for Him, even if unto death.
And many early Christians -from a variety of movements - did precisely that.
Suffering and martyrdom is also a exhibition of one's faith and conviction - that even if the world afflict and destroy our bodies - it cannot our souls.
Another passage that stands out in mind - that despite all his sufferings and afflictions, Paul in his "weakness" was "made strong".
One personal "revelation" to me (though certainly not unique to me) upon leaving the Way was recognizing how central "the cross of Christ" played in Paul's theology - and yes, very mystical (and "transcendant", as Mark mentioned) and even cosmic in its proportions.
Paul attributed the creation of a "new humanity" directly to the cross.
The abolishment of the elemental powers of the universe, and the cancellation of any authority they may have held over our souls.
And much much more.
The cross is both a symbol of great suffering - yet greater triumph.
Danny
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TheEvan
Excellent thread! I'm reading with relish. Thank you all.
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ChattyKathy
I second that!
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CM
are you still there Mark? :)
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markomalley
Yeah, I'm still here. :D
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ChattyKathy
I've not the time now to give it but for me this suffering is more a will to make up the lack within the community of God's children.
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CM
sufferings and healings are quite the subject
just cuz a person is suffering doesn't mean they did anything wrong
healings come from within, all of them are spiritual
either done with the help of a doctor or the spirit alone
the one body....yeah...suffers with you
and rejoices with you
in a spiritual way
for that spirit to surface from within
is not something i can explain
but i know it happens
if and when it does don't be afraid
you hold that woman in love
with the same breath
breathing deeply and letting all the bad burn up in the fire
of your hearts, and breath out giving life together
just hold on to love
this present time will be so small in comparison
to the glory that will be revealed in us
love always
(that don't mean bye, still will talk with you and there's always email too)
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markomalley
See, I'm at sort of an impasse. I've gotten to the point where I understand (with my head) the concepts involved. But its extremely complex and my understanding is not such that I am competent to explain it to somebody so that they'll be able to understand it. And the key to this understanding is an understanding of the spiritual side of the ancient liturgies (the Latin Mass, the eastern Divine Liturgies, etc.). And although I don't mind being freely identified as the token Catholic on this board (I know there are a few others, but I think I'm the only one who posts on Doctrinal), I don't want to be perceived as prostletyzing. And if I start to go into that, I'm very concerned that I will be perceived as prostletyzing. This IS, after all, not only not a Christian board, it is most definitely a non-Catholic board.
Frankly, I'm sort of smarting still from some of the vicious, hurtful posts put on gsc after the death of JPII. I am not sure that I want to open myself up to being the recipient of more of those type of posts. If I start explaining the spiritual/theological meaning behind the Eucharist, I am frankly concerned that I will have to wade through that stuff (again). Its not that I mind going into an ontological explanation of the theology behind this, its just that I don't know that I want to deal with the (likely) scathing Jack Chick-type pushback that I'll likely receive. (Legit questions/objections/concerns are fine, no problem, but maliciousness is another story altogether)
So I'm treading very carefully at this juncture.
Let it suffice for right now that my understanding that I'm gaining show a direct connection between the contents of Col 1:24 and other verses about Christian persecution, suffering, etc. and the metaphysical reality of the mystical Body of Christ, as described in 1 Cor 12 and so on.
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CM
well perhaps setting aside what you think you may know and let Christ work in you with what you already have in your heart. let him put a few things together for you, it's a redeeming experience
study-study-study...pfff-there's a time and place for it
there is also a time for God to work and you won't need a book
remember Jesus said
search the scriptures for in them you think you have eternal life
and there was Jesus standing right in front of their face
sometimes you gotta close the books to let the spirit work
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Darrell Bailey
howdy folks here at the new home for the Spot-O-Grease.
The topic of suffering was not one we talked about alot in TWI.
In the years since I stopped attending their stuff I have spent a lot of time studying suffering and living through suffering.
One of the biggest impediments to getting a better grip on it (from my perspective NOW) were the methods used by TWI in their study of the scriptures.
IMHO, TWI got off on error-prone tangents when they "analyzed" the "tree" while remaining unlearned, ignorant or in flat-out denial of the surrounding "forest".
Studying the context of a set of verses in light of the SUBJECT is hard to do when there are preconcieved notions from out-of-context word studies.
The "context of suffering" has to be grasped as well as all the little word studies.
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Early on in the history of this thread Rachel made some points that I think need reconsidering.
The book of Hebrews, as well as other NT literature, does talk a lot about suffering and enduring in the context of learning and instruction.
Jesus learned obedience by the things which he endured.
Jesus obviously had no personal sins or guilt to "justify" his sufferings.
Jesus is an example of a son learning from his Father.
Jesis is an example of a slave obeying his master.
"Not my will, but your will" he said.
A slave was considered an extension of his Lord's WILL.
Jesus humbled himself and took upon himself the form of a servant.
Obedient through his whole life including the suffering before and during the Cross.
Now that Jesus has been made Lord, and we accept and confess him as Lord,
We are now the slaves being instructed to be instruments of our Lord's WILL.
A slave was usually instructed in specific tasks and vocations.
As the Body of Christ fulfills the purpose of representing Christ, who represents God,
the unity of Christ is being expressed throughout the VARIETY in the members of the one body of Christ.
Every great design will express unity as well as variety.
God's great design for the ages includes each one of us (VARIETY) possessing the life of Jesus (UNITY) but expressing it in our own lives as we are taught by our new Master Jesus.
Our new Master will teach us.
The learning process of a child may include elements of reproof and punishment.
Chastisement and instruction are tied together.
The perfecting of the saints is one of the goals.
Saintliness is a qualification for more instruction not less.
No one "saint" will be totally Christlike before we see him as he is, so we are all in need of instruction up until the very last moment.
However I do not think that God or Jesus send the oppression or the source of the suffering.
But God and Jesus do send the solutions, the skill to survive and respond.
Jeus had to perfect this before God could present it to us.
The instruction is learned as we take an actrive spiritual part in the way we respond to any adversity.
We are responsible for our actions taken in response, (response is part of the word response-ability [sic])
to all adverse situations.
Some adversity comes to one member of the body through another member of the body.
Some adversity comes from "non-believers".
Some adversity comes from life and nature and hurricanes and gravity, etc.
I don't believe God "sends" the adverse situation.
I do believe that he wants to instruct us in every single adverse (or pleasant) situation through his Son.
God Bless us every one,
Darrell
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ChattyKathy
Suffering seems to be one of those perception words. Who's looking at it matters greatly. I've no doubt Paul's understanding of suffering was unlike any suffering I've done. And I can only imagine he believed his cause which was God's cause was worth any physical lack he did have, as the Bible clearly states. He had little in ways of possessions and traveled with no guarantees of any comfort in bedding and food. But his life had meaning and he knew it, he knew he had something far greater in the mix than to be concerned with the temporal physical discomforts.
I can't imagine he laid on the ground under a tree eating of figs and roots at times (I can surmise he must have had to in his travels) cursing his lot in life. Oh why haven't I high speed connections and an automatic car with air-conditioning.
It was the absence of his even considering his momentary discomfort that was so notable. His sufferings for the lack in the body not lack in Jesus Christ or what he had accomplished on the cross aided in the body being strengthened. Why did he have to, why do men and women of godly substance suffer today. Maybe because it doesn't mean to them what it may to me. Suffering isn't a burden to them, it's a joy.
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ChattyKathy
Before my little sister died she had taken on a change in what she felt. I wouldn't listen to my mother fully for years due to my disagreement with thinking she was in heaven. But when I left twi in 02 I began to consider other peoples faiths as they spoke and even recognize mutual understandings that rather amazed me. Not twi understandings but things of God not confined to a faith. Because of this I finally allowed my mother to tell me of my sisters last days again. I'd heard her tell me before but with ears that refused to allow heaven in the equation. So I failed to really hear her.
She had moved on in her thinking days before she pulled her hand from my mothers and moaned as mother pleaded to God to make her whole. Josie had taken on peacefulness devoid of any noticeable pain important enough to her to ask my mother for powerful drugs that were available. And pain was what all the doctors had said she would be in at this phase. Josie was no saint, oh in my heart and every single person that ever met her she was though. In her lifetime she never had an enemy. None! And this little girl had a heart the size of the universe and had seen much loss. I can't tell you all she did truly suffer but the loss of a set of twins less than two days after birth and a boy only 7 days after his birth was some. And she was looking forward to seeing those babies she'd never gotten to raise. For her the boys she had brought into this world knew they had gotten all she could be as a mother (both now serving our country and one on second tour of Iraq while the other prepares to go). Truth be told I scolded her once for leaving the dinner dishes as she did while heading out with roller-skates in hand and she quickly looked back at me without breaking her stride and said Sissy, the dishes will be here when they are grown and gone. And off her and the boys went skating down the sidewalk. She knew she had been there for those boys that now would lose her but she knew they were secure in what love was. Her body was gone; she was unable to get out of bed. She was ready to move on. I can't blame her for that now, nor did I then for I had seen the great suffering she had done yet at her last days according to my mother she was at peace that her family would be taken care of and that she would see those babies's again. When she closed her eyes she didn't suffer, but we did. She hadn't suffered for days according to my mother.
She wasn't a saint but this is the best I can understand this thing. I don't understand why she was't healed in the first place but it seems to be part of life. But I do know in those last days according to my mothers reliving them again for me that she didn't think of suffering at all. I don't know. I'm just trying to fit new light of understanding into a head that sometimes needs to see examples to make it click. Even if in no way am I comparing the suffering of Josie with the suffering of Paul. Thanks for listening.
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markomalley
Kathy,
I, again, would like to highlight Col 1:24 (Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church,)
This concept of "filling up what is lacking" is an extremely powerful concept, I believe. If we really understood verses like "I am crucified with Christ," along with the above verse, would make a lot of people a lot more content with their lives. Imagine, what he is saying here is that he has the privilege of co-operating with Christ in the redemption of man (particularly the Church). This is not to say IN ANY WAY that Christ's sacrifice was not complete...so don't go there...but when we "put on Christ" and are "buried, in baptism, with Christ," I think that we need to set our vision to be a lot fuller.
If you look through all the New Testament epistles, you'll see again that Paul talks about identification with the Cross. He talks about us being members of the Body of Christ. And this dualism between the flesh and the interior reality of the new birth. The quote I mentioned from 2 Cor 4 is particularly applicable here. Particularly when one examines it in light of Romans 6ff. However, it takes on new meaning when you look at Col 1:24. It makes the reality of that one body more vivid (at least to me) than ever.
In regards to your sister, she led a very peaceful life and had a very peaceful death. She accepted the pain and suffering of her life with extreme grace and was all the better for it. Although she may not have perceived the redemptive qualities that her suffering had for the Body of Christ, she undoubtedly understood the message of the Cross. The suffering and pain that she endured as a member of Christ's Body I'm sure had some effect. What that effect was is, of course, beyond me. But I do know that it will be nice to see "face to face," rather than "through a glass, darkly," so that we'll see the spiritual reality beyond the physical apparation our senses can currently perceive.
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