Yes. Patterned after the instructions of Jesus to His disciples, "freely you've received, now freely give".
His disciples might have argued otherwise, feeling that they had their own stories to tell on what they'd done or sacrificed or given to follow Jesus but His perspective seems clear.
"The Word" may dwell in us richly but it's never ours to sell.
Proverbs has a cool verse - 23:23 Buy (acquire, obtain) the truth, and sell it not; also wisdom, and instruction, and understanding.
So a question comes to mind reading proverbs - what would I give to acquire the truth? And again, what would I take in exchange for it?
"And you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free". If a person desparately needs that freedom and I know it, but I make them pay for it first, what does that make me?
I would propose that it lessens the message when commerce is introduced to it, dough-ski, collections, all of that, should be handled in a very fine balance amongst a congregation, church, etc.
I don't mind buying books, CD's, music. Labor earns reward. I do feel that there is a very fine line that has to be observed, and one that Jesus walked very easily according to the records. He just didn't get involved with it, the commerce.
Moreover when people came to hear Him, He fed THEM. "Takeout" with a twist. :)--> I don't expect a minister to turn 5 Big Mac's into a 1,000, Biggie Sized. But if the mindset of the pastor, teacher or minister is to care for those they believe God brings to them, they'll work to find a way to give them what they need. After all, who's the Provider?
The people are God's, and deserve respectful treatment. Naggin' people for payments and money is degrading to everyone. For those with little or nothing, how much does it mean to be treated with dignity, to be cared for as if..."as if" you were important enough to deserve it? And for those who have a lot, how much to be able to share some good fortune with others?
That was huge copout attitude on twi's behalf. Especially since they won't find many more to take their classes. They are boooooring and not worth it. Any church I went to has offered workbooks, etc. for free. A lot of them even give out Bibles for free to those without them. The only time I ever paid money for something since I've been going to churches was for a conference which covered room and food. And then, if there were people who couldn't afford it, someone always pitched in for them whether it was someone in the congregation or the church. I've never seen people flake out of church commitments. Money doesn't necessarily make people committed.
So is it in the interest of commerce that theway charges $100?
Or would they be more honest to list the cost of materials, and charge.
Of course, what of the bum on the street who needs to hear the Word, but has no money, would it be "wrong" to pay for him, or for the ministry to help?
Moreover when people came to hear Him, He fed THEM. "Takeout" with a twist. :)--> I don't expect a minister to turn 5 Big Mac's into a 1,000, Biggie Sized. But if the mindset of the pastor, teacher or minister is to care for those they believe God brings to them, they'll work to find a way to give them what they need. After all, who's the Provider?
That says it all!! If the teacher delivers, folks will be willing to give. While I don't mind paying for what I get, it's nice to be able to determine what I think it is worth. :)-->
Knowhere that I know of in the Bible does it say to charge money for the word.
And like Wayfernot, the churches I've taken classes at never charged money, except maybe for a book, but as she stated, they make it available for free to those that couldn't afford it. And one church I attended gave away Bibles to those that asked for them.
That it the Christian way, TWI being a cult was just looking for money.
As far as a so called principle that if they pay they'll be more committed, tell it to Jesus who alsways taught for free!
Although, we do pay motivational speakers thousands of dollars to improve ourselves,
shouldn't we pay some for the knowledge of the book of life?
(work with me people, assume the "class" or "a" class of your choice, let's not debate the value of WAP or PFIL here...)
Just today -- I sat through a *creative thinking* seminar by Bob Ash. It was a required seminar for all full time employees of our company.
That's about 125 folks, and the cost for each of us (picked up by the company) was $60.00 each. I don't know how much of the total cost he got -- but he was well worth it.
He researched his material, gave us his life experiences, and added a whole lot of common sense into the mix. Someone like that I would be willing to pay, but not someone who takes other folks work, and pawn it off as their own.
You're right -- college isn't free, nor are motivational speakers for seminars like this one. If they have done their homework, there is nothing wrong with paying them an honest salary. They have earned it.
I will, however, draw the line with those that claim to have the *truth from God*, and expect the big bucks from it simply because they give one an emotional high with little homework involved, and just quoting the right scripture, at the right time in front of a large audience.
The poor had a hard time learning the Bible in TWI. Freely ye received, freely ye give...
and many poor givers had an ever harder time trying to share the bible.... sending all our $$ to headquarters and running classes, fellowships, friendships, etc., and not being able to pay our own electric bill.... never touching the sacred cornocopia sp ? :)-->
**
the greatest gifts i've received in my life have been for free.... too great to put a price on....
But, in the Vey it was $100 per class. This is supposed to help you get REALLY committed, that you would show up and take it serious, so as to not lose your moola!
People all over this country buy season tickets to the opera, ball games, theaters etc. They pay for those tickets because they have determined that the product is something they find value in.
Note what i just said, THey have determined that the product is something they find value in.
If in fact Piffle had so much "value" it would not have been necessary to charge 100+ dollars to keep people in attendence. THey would have come, found the value, kept coming and word of mouth would have brought more in and kept them coming.
While I agree in principle that there can be an ethical point made about "charging for the Word," I can actually see it from the other point of view.
I am, in fact, taking a class this week (for my work). My company had to pay a lot of money for my seat in that class. Frankly, this is NOT a "good week" for me to be away from work. Sorry, but its just not. Well, I worked around it...and the only reason is that my company would be out a little over $2K if I couldn't and ended up not showing for the class. I'm having to put in a lot of extra work (did a few hours of work after I got home from class) because my work hours were filled with going to a class. Its not that I'm not motivated to go to the class. I am. But I would have rescheduled for a "better time" had it not been for the loss of the class fee.
Religious colleges, both Protestant and Catholic, include a tuition for their students, even those taking courses via distance learning and correspondence. Taking a single class at CUA costs over $1K. A single class at Catholic Distance University (CDU) costs $795. And both of those include continuing education classes.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not for a second trying to compare Piffle with what is taught at CUA or CDU (or respected Protestant institutions), but the fact that there is a class fee for piffle is not, in of itself, outrageous. In fact, its one of the most reasonable parts of it.
Now if you'd like to talk about the quality of the material in the class...if you'd like to talk about the value for the money, then we'd have a different subject completely. Maybe they should have paid the students? :D-->
I know the feeling. dmiller's point on the response being left up to the receiver - I think that fits with the spirit of the giver, so to speak.
Jesus took GREAT exception to the money-changers and all of the commerce, business shennanigans, going on outside of the Temple. It's one of the only places in the gospels that it's said He got angry and took direct action against what He saw as being wrong.
It's not quite the same as charging for the teaching of the bible, granted. I can't imagine what He would have done if faced with that, maybe gone back to the desert for 40 more days or something, I dunno.
Jesus the man is idealized in the bible, of course. There's only so much there and the image it gives us of Him is expanisive while being limited.
We're presented with a very simple, focused individual, complex yet accessible to those around Him. Sure, He had to have done lots of things that aren't recorded, He and his followers had to eat, sleep, have means of support. But the silence is deafening when it comes to the details.
I've often wondered what His response would have been to someone coming to Him, with no ill intent, and proposing -
"Hey Jesus! You've got a good thing going here - all these people that come to see you. You're a good man, you're doing some great things here...but you could do a lot better for yourself and your followers. I could help you with that...with the right approach and some support you could reach 1,000's! People will pay for this stuff, seriously! Look at this, I can see teaching centers, buildings, a whole new Temple, the "Jesus Temple"! Think about it...I mean it, we should talk..."
:)-->
It sounds silly, doesn't it? The seeds He planted have born fruit for 2,000 years and He never even owned a roto-tiller or a backhoe, never made a CD or a tape. But the imprint He left on those people closest to Him really made an impression. :D-->
Even if none of it were true, the story stands on it's own merit in that we're talking about it today. How many classes sold today will be passed around in every language on the planet, 2,000 years from now?
Ya, lifetime guaruuuunnnnteeee! Wouldn't that be something?
Thanks for all the input, I do see both sides.
I think it is a matter of motive here.
While a laborer is worthy of his hire, I didn't see any class coordinators receiving anything for running a class, except a larger utility bill and no toilet paper......
but they were blessed to give, no doubt (maybe at first).
So, who is the laborer that is receiving?
Would the ministry be more honest to just recoop cost of goods used?
I do like the concept of take now pay later if you think it's worth it, unfortunately we live in a real world!!
(i know you all are just dying to talk about the worthiness of the class, but no)
Let's imagine it is(since we all thought it was at one time or another)
How many of you had people who honestly could not afford to pay for it?
How many times did the ministry try to help those? (none to my knowledge)
So what principle were they trying to teach?
Believe for the money?
Wasn't the class suppossed to help them "believe"?
The bottom line is that it is a CULT and the $100 is just another revenue stream...just like the advanced class specials, books, etc. It is a revenue stream - nothing more, nothing less. Considering the amount of revenue gained by the way through ABS they should have been paying us to take the classes.
I'll ask again, as I have 1,000 times - WHERE HAS ALL THE MONEY GONE? Not to needy causes or people, not to missions, not to anything other than the deep bank accounts of the leadership.
The principle I was taught was to believe for the money and if I couldn't to renew my mind. If I still argued or couldn't believe, more verses. You know, that control mind factor.
All of this was just a "cover" so that they could line their purse with $$$.
I've heard this said before: the word of God is free, but the pipeline that carries it often is not free. Since you are out of the Way, what would you be paying money for?? Unless you order books about something you want to learn more about. I've done that. Books, tapes, that kind of thing.
This brings about a good ethical question. Remember one of Walter Cummins' keys to how the word interprets itself was to compare what a scripture meant to 1st century believers with what it means to believers today.
In the first century there was no mass production or TV or advertizing or any of that, which are necessary to reach millions of consumers today. Billy Graham and Orel Roberts sure take advantage of it.
Anybody here take a college class that wasn't paid for by somebody???
der vey may have delusions of grandeur, but they're not Microsoft or anything..
at least with every update and release of versions of DOS, windows, etc.. there was at least the APPEARANCE of marked improvement.. and folks would reasonably come to the conclusion that the difference was worth it.
I can't make the same claim for the steady stream of classes I was subjected to.
In the first century there was no mass production or TV or advertizing or any of that, which are necessary to reach millions of consumers today. Billy Graham and Orel Roberts sure take advantage of it.
Who says it's necessary today? -->
Who says anyone has to reach millions in one broadcast swoop? Who says that's an effective way to spread the gospel of Jesus Christ? The 'feedback cards' the attendees fill out afterwards?
johniam, I would say gently we're talking apples and limes here, to my ear. The gospel of Jesus Christ isn't the same as a college class. Comparing them doesn't make sense to me.
Jesus had impact on individuals, close up, personal. His teachings reached throngs of people, but the records that reach our souls today are the ones where we see Him love the unlovable and do the humanly impossible for those without a snowball's chance in June of ever making it. The ones that make us, at our lowest points in life think, "Maybe He would have done that for me too, even me".
What would Jesus have taken in money for what He offered? It's ludicrous.
What would I take in trade for introducing someone to Him?
What am I, an escort service for Jesus?
I'm stuck on this topic as to how I feel, so I'm a big snooze at this point. Ethically I feel it's wrong to a) charge for something that isn't truly mine to sell and b) make others pay for something they desparately need that God ALREADY paid the price for in His son, Jesus Christ. Something there makes me cringe, but maybe it's just me.
(But overall, I have no beef with Billy Graham, he seems like a good man who's put his money where his mouth is).
$100 is pretty steep for paper and binder and 2 books. Maybe $25.
Bliss -- while I stand by what I said earlier, I got to thinking about what you said here, and it led me onto another tangent.
I guess I don't have as large a problem with paying for a class, as I do with "abundantly sharing" to a ministry that is going to pocket the money, and not do any good with it. They kept it for themselves, and (to my knowledge) never donated to any sort of humanitarian cause helping alleviate world need.
Oh I know they taught that other causes were only *good* and not *best*, so they were able to rationalize it away. And I bought into that like so many other folks did, not seeing the greed and the hypocrisy behind their rationalization.
It saddens me now to realize that I once thought properties, buildings, airplanes and auditoriums for twi were more important than human lives in need.
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socks
Yes. Patterned after the instructions of Jesus to His disciples, "freely you've received, now freely give".
His disciples might have argued otherwise, feeling that they had their own stories to tell on what they'd done or sacrificed or given to follow Jesus but His perspective seems clear.
"The Word" may dwell in us richly but it's never ours to sell.
Proverbs has a cool verse - 23:23 Buy (acquire, obtain) the truth, and sell it not; also wisdom, and instruction, and understanding.
So a question comes to mind reading proverbs - what would I give to acquire the truth? And again, what would I take in exchange for it?
"And you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free". If a person desparately needs that freedom and I know it, but I make them pay for it first, what does that make me?
I would propose that it lessens the message when commerce is introduced to it, dough-ski, collections, all of that, should be handled in a very fine balance amongst a congregation, church, etc.
I don't mind buying books, CD's, music. Labor earns reward. I do feel that there is a very fine line that has to be observed, and one that Jesus walked very easily according to the records. He just didn't get involved with it, the commerce.
Moreover when people came to hear Him, He fed THEM. "Takeout" with a twist.
:)--> I don't expect a minister to turn 5 Big Mac's into a 1,000, Biggie Sized. But if the mindset of the pastor, teacher or minister is to care for those they believe God brings to them, they'll work to find a way to give them what they need. After all, who's the Provider?
The people are God's, and deserve respectful treatment. Naggin' people for payments and money is degrading to everyone. For those with little or nothing, how much does it mean to be treated with dignity, to be cared for as if..."as if" you were important enough to deserve it? And for those who have a lot, how much to be able to share some good fortune with others?
That's my 2 cents. Keep the change.
;)-->
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Nottawayfer
That was huge copout attitude on twi's behalf. Especially since they won't find many more to take their classes. They are boooooring and not worth it. Any church I went to has offered workbooks, etc. for free. A lot of them even give out Bibles for free to those without them. The only time I ever paid money for something since I've been going to churches was for a conference which covered room and food. And then, if there were people who couldn't afford it, someone always pitched in for them whether it was someone in the congregation or the church. I've never seen people flake out of church commitments. Money doesn't necessarily make people committed.
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bliss
So is it in the interest of commerce that theway charges $100?
Or would they be more honest to list the cost of materials, and charge.
Of course, what of the bum on the street who needs to hear the Word, but has no money, would it be "wrong" to pay for him, or for the ministry to help?
Socks-very enlightening.
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dmiller
That says it all!! If the teacher delivers, folks will be willing to give. While I don't mind paying for what I get, it's nice to be able to determine what I think it is worth.
:)-->
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Outin88!
I like what Socks wrote. Well stated.
Knowhere that I know of in the Bible does it say to charge money for the word.
And like Wayfernot, the churches I've taken classes at never charged money, except maybe for a book, but as she stated, they make it available for free to those that couldn't afford it. And one church I attended gave away Bibles to those that asked for them.
That it the Christian way, TWI being a cult was just looking for money.
As far as a so called principle that if they pay they'll be more committed, tell it to Jesus who alsways taught for free!
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Eagle
The classes should have been free and the syllabus paid out of donations to TWI from the rest of us. The books should have been voluntary sales.
The poor had a hard time learning the Bible in TWI. Freely ye received, freely ye give...
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dmiller
Just today -- I sat through a *creative thinking* seminar by Bob Ash. It was a required seminar for all full time employees of our company.
That's about 125 folks, and the cost for each of us (picked up by the company) was $60.00 each. I don't know how much of the total cost he got -- but he was well worth it.
He researched his material, gave us his life experiences, and added a whole lot of common sense into the mix. Someone like that I would be willing to pay, but not someone who takes other folks work, and pawn it off as their own.
You're right -- college isn't free, nor are motivational speakers for seminars like this one. If they have done their homework, there is nothing wrong with paying them an honest salary. They have earned it.
I will, however, draw the line with those that claim to have the *truth from God*, and expect the big bucks from it simply because they give one an emotional high with little homework involved, and just quoting the right scripture, at the right time in front of a large audience.
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excathedra
**
the greatest gifts i've received in my life have been for free.... too great to put a price on....
i love socks
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templelady
People all over this country buy season tickets to the opera, ball games, theaters etc. They pay for those tickets because they have determined that the product is something they find value in.
Note what i just said, THey have determined that the product is something they find value in.
If in fact Piffle had so much "value" it would not have been necessary to charge 100+ dollars to keep people in attendence. THey would have come, found the value, kept coming and word of mouth would have brought more in and kept them coming.
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markomalley
While I agree in principle that there can be an ethical point made about "charging for the Word," I can actually see it from the other point of view.
I am, in fact, taking a class this week (for my work). My company had to pay a lot of money for my seat in that class. Frankly, this is NOT a "good week" for me to be away from work. Sorry, but its just not. Well, I worked around it...and the only reason is that my company would be out a little over $2K if I couldn't and ended up not showing for the class. I'm having to put in a lot of extra work (did a few hours of work after I got home from class) because my work hours were filled with going to a class. Its not that I'm not motivated to go to the class. I am. But I would have rescheduled for a "better time" had it not been for the loss of the class fee.
Religious colleges, both Protestant and Catholic, include a tuition for their students, even those taking courses via distance learning and correspondence. Taking a single class at CUA costs over $1K. A single class at Catholic Distance University (CDU) costs $795. And both of those include continuing education classes.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not for a second trying to compare Piffle with what is taught at CUA or CDU (or respected Protestant institutions), but the fact that there is a class fee for piffle is not, in of itself, outrageous. In fact, its one of the most reasonable parts of it.
Now if you'd like to talk about the quality of the material in the class...if you'd like to talk about the value for the money, then we'd have a different subject completely. Maybe they should have paid the students?
:D-->
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socks
I know the feeling. dmiller's point on the response being left up to the receiver - I think that fits with the spirit of the giver, so to speak.
Jesus took GREAT exception to the money-changers and all of the commerce, business shennanigans, going on outside of the Temple. It's one of the only places in the gospels that it's said He got angry and took direct action against what He saw as being wrong.
It's not quite the same as charging for the teaching of the bible, granted. I can't imagine what He would have done if faced with that, maybe gone back to the desert for 40 more days or something, I dunno.
Jesus the man is idealized in the bible, of course. There's only so much there and the image it gives us of Him is expanisive while being limited.
We're presented with a very simple, focused individual, complex yet accessible to those around Him. Sure, He had to have done lots of things that aren't recorded, He and his followers had to eat, sleep, have means of support. But the silence is deafening when it comes to the details.
I've often wondered what His response would have been to someone coming to Him, with no ill intent, and proposing -
"Hey Jesus! You've got a good thing going here - all these people that come to see you. You're a good man, you're doing some great things here...but you could do a lot better for yourself and your followers. I could help you with that...with the right approach and some support you could reach 1,000's! People will pay for this stuff, seriously! Look at this, I can see teaching centers, buildings, a whole new Temple, the "Jesus Temple"! Think about it...I mean it, we should talk..."
It sounds silly, doesn't it? The seeds He planted have born fruit for 2,000 years and He never even owned a roto-tiller or a backhoe, never made a CD or a tape. But the imprint He left on those people closest to Him really made an impression.
:D-->
Even if none of it were true, the story stands on it's own merit in that we're talking about it today. How many classes sold today will be passed around in every language on the planet, 2,000 years from now?
Anyway, yeah. The free thing.
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Brother Speed
Can I get my money back if I'm not completely satisfied?
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bliss
HAHHAHAHAHAHHAAAAAHAHHHHHAHAH
Ya, lifetime guaruuuunnnnteeee! Wouldn't that be something?
Thanks for all the input, I do see both sides.
I think it is a matter of motive here.
While a laborer is worthy of his hire, I didn't see any class coordinators receiving anything for running a class, except a larger utility bill and no toilet paper......
but they were blessed to give, no doubt (maybe at first).
So, who is the laborer that is receiving?
Would the ministry be more honest to just recoop cost of goods used?
I do like the concept of take now pay later if you think it's worth it, unfortunately we live in a real world!!
(i know you all are just dying to talk about the worthiness of the class, but no)
Let's imagine it is(since we all thought it was at one time or another)
How many of you had people who honestly could not afford to pay for it?
How many times did the ministry try to help those? (none to my knowledge)
So what principle were they trying to teach?
Believe for the money?
Wasn't the class suppossed to help them "believe"?
huuuummmmmmmmnnn.......
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TaylorCompany
The bottom line is that it is a CULT and the $100 is just another revenue stream...just like the advanced class specials, books, etc. It is a revenue stream - nothing more, nothing less. Considering the amount of revenue gained by the way through ABS they should have been paying us to take the classes.
I'll ask again, as I have 1,000 times - WHERE HAS ALL THE MONEY GONE? Not to needy causes or people, not to missions, not to anything other than the deep bank accounts of the leadership.
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Brother Speed
The principle I was taught was to believe for the money and if I couldn't to renew my mind. If I still argued or couldn't believe, more verses. You know, that control mind factor.
All of this was just a "cover" so that they could line their purse with $$$.
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bliss
Ya, but the money is just sitting there.
They did donate money to the Tsunami victims, it just wasn't announced.
I had 2 reactions from innies.
One was "good,they should, about time!"
Another was "what? they better not have sent my money to the idolators!"
Why not announce it, and teach the Jesus principles with it, come on now?
I am getting off topic here.....
They are NON PROfit- so they aren't suppossed to charge XTRA, am I way off on this?
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Jan
I've heard this said before: the word of God is free, but the pipeline that carries it often is not free. Since you are out of the Way, what would you be paying money for?? Unless you order books about something you want to learn more about. I've done that. Books, tapes, that kind of thing.
Jan
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Ham
Maybe the question should be, "should we pay $100 for the same stinking classes- again, and again, and again..."
Seems just when you're on top of the vey food chain, somehow, there's just one more "new" version, of the same, sad classes that went before it.
Same mind numbing horse...., just a different name.
Hey, and its a bargain! Say, ONLY $100.00.
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johniam
This brings about a good ethical question. Remember one of Walter Cummins' keys to how the word interprets itself was to compare what a scripture meant to 1st century believers with what it means to believers today.
In the first century there was no mass production or TV or advertizing or any of that, which are necessary to reach millions of consumers today. Billy Graham and Orel Roberts sure take advantage of it.
Anybody here take a college class that wasn't paid for by somebody???
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bliss
No, certainly not going to take any way classes.
It was for the sake of arguement, mainly hubby and I, going back and forth on this subject...
couldn't really agree/disagree with either side.
Wanted my fellow Greasers input
:P-->
Thanks
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Ham
der vey may have delusions of grandeur, but they're not Microsoft or anything..
at least with every update and release of versions of DOS, windows, etc.. there was at least the APPEARANCE of marked improvement.. and folks would reasonably come to the conclusion that the difference was worth it.
I can't make the same claim for the steady stream of classes I was subjected to.
Honestly, I could see paying for it, ONCE.
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socks
Who says it's necessary today?
-->
Who says anyone has to reach millions in one broadcast swoop? Who says that's an effective way to spread the gospel of Jesus Christ? The 'feedback cards' the attendees fill out afterwards?
johniam, I would say gently we're talking apples and limes here, to my ear. The gospel of Jesus Christ isn't the same as a college class. Comparing them doesn't make sense to me.
Jesus had impact on individuals, close up, personal. His teachings reached throngs of people, but the records that reach our souls today are the ones where we see Him love the unlovable and do the humanly impossible for those without a snowball's chance in June of ever making it. The ones that make us, at our lowest points in life think, "Maybe He would have done that for me too, even me".
What would Jesus have taken in money for what He offered? It's ludicrous.
What would I take in trade for introducing someone to Him?
What am I, an escort service for Jesus?
I'm stuck on this topic as to how I feel, so I'm a big snooze at this point. Ethically I feel it's wrong to a) charge for something that isn't truly mine to sell and b) make others pay for something they desparately need that God ALREADY paid the price for in His son, Jesus Christ. Something there makes me cringe, but maybe it's just me.
(But overall, I have no beef with Billy Graham, he seems like a good man who's put his money where his mouth is).
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A la prochaine
Hello Socks,
Nice to see you around.
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dmiller
Bliss -- while I stand by what I said earlier, I got to thinking about what you said here, and it led me onto another tangent.
I guess I don't have as large a problem with paying for a class, as I do with "abundantly sharing" to a ministry that is going to pocket the money, and not do any good with it. They kept it for themselves, and (to my knowledge) never donated to any sort of humanitarian cause helping alleviate world need.
Oh I know they taught that other causes were only *good* and not *best*, so they were able to rationalize it away. And I bought into that like so many other folks did, not seeing the greed and the hypocrisy behind their rationalization.
It saddens me now to realize that I once thought properties, buildings, airplanes and auditoriums for twi were more important than human lives in need.
David
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