Hi Bob. The thread didn't actually "take a turn". It was turned by the ubiquitous madman, Mikeol. Whenever anyone brings up the issue of VP plagiarizing, Mike feels compelled to leap to the defense of his god and spews his particular brand of insanity.
It's kind of like trying to have a fellowship meeting at an open air cafe in Greenwich Village and every time you sit down and start to chat, the homeless babbling nutcase thinks you're there to hear his sermon and jumps on a soapbox. It's unavoidable, but the fellowship is worth the distraction.
You are not at all accurate when you say "whenever" and "every time." I do this sparingly and only on SOME threads. Sometimes I'm dragged in.
******
Bob,
I'd be happy to bow out of your thread if you asked. I can't remember how I got so involved in this one. I did notice that you were somewhat absent before I got started.
******
templelady,
Yes, I'm aware of the extra-biblical similarities between my message and Mormonism, but that's where the similarities end.
I have spent MANY hours discussing LDS stuff with Mormons. They haven't a clue what's in the Epistles of Paul, no matter how much they claim to accept the Bible. Their doctrine vastly contradicts many important Biblical doctrines.
PFAL, on the other hand, clarifies and fits in perfectly with the doctrines of the Bible. That'a a HUGE difference you seem to have overlooked.
******
Now, my head is spinning a little with all the other responses I'd LIKE to make that have accumulated against me since noon. If anyone gets missed, please bring up your points again. I have no idea how much energy I have left to cover two threads worth.
I had written to you as you mocked what you thought was a lack of fruit or results in my life: "Wasn't there mockery similar to yours thrown in Jesus' face as he hung on the cross."
You responded with: "But you sir, are not Jesus. And why you continue to pretend to be, I have no idea.."
Oh YES YOU DO! The pretense totally originated with you. In THIS case I was not pretending to be or even comparing myself with Jesus. There ARE many cases where we SHOULD act like, compare ourselves with, and even step into the shoes of Jesus Christ, and if in this case i were doing that and you objected I'd point out the false sense of humility that you would be pretending with such a criticism of me.
But in THIS case I was not making a comparison and seeing similarities between me and Jesus, nor between me and Joseph, nor between me and Paul, the latter two you seemed to leave out of your criticism.
No in THIS case I was comparing YOU with those who mocked Jesus saying that his difficult situation on the cross indicated a lack of connection between him and God.
I was comparing YOU with a hypothetical critic of Paul or Joseph in their difficulties.
Now, since you missed the point so badly, maybe you should go back and re-read my post.
******
Belle,
You wrote: "Mike *thinks* he has the right to judge and question the fruit in anyones' life, but for someone to question the fruit in his life....well, that's just WRONG!"
I didn't question the fruit n others' lives; I challenged THEM to question it. Too many people are content to think they are on the right track if they are happy. Conversely, when persecution and torment arise, many people (or their neighbors) think they must be on the WRONG track.
It's in these kinds of situations that Dr taught us that experience is no guarantee for truth. We can't look at our experiences to determine what right doctrine is. God's Word guarantees that those who live godly lives are going to be pursued by persecution and mental pressure. If we apply correct doctrine in a correct manner that persecution won't catch us and we can deal with the pressure.
You asked: "...and who decides who the normal people are?...You?"
No, by default we ALL are normal. The very few special prophets are chosen by God. He decided in the OT who could get spirit upon them and who could not. He WANTED all of Israel to have it, but they didn't cooperate. In the NT God decides who gets what jobs.
***
You asked: "God had to search far and wide for very special and rare people...says who?...You?"
No, the Bible says this. Just look at how rare it was that people had spirit upon them in the OT. In Moses time it once occurred that 70 got it and it was a big deal.
***
You asked: "Am I to assume that YOU have decided that I am a "normal" person and not a "special and rare" person?...If so, how did you conclude this?"
If you were the type who was chosen to bring forth the Word, then you'd be the one teaching right doctrine. Instead you just post on GreaseSpot your opinions like normal people.
***
You asked: "I noticed that you included yourself in the category of being a "normal" person when you used the word "We"...Seeing that you have concluded that you, yourself, are not a "special and rare" person, why do you believe that your spiritual insights are more valid than anyone else's here at the GreaseSpot?...especially when you define the "special and rare" people as those "who could tell the difference between senses and spirit and between the true God and satan"?"
I came back to PFAL and started studying it intensely 7 years ago. That is what gives me an edge, not any specialness of my own. Come back and you can have it too. It takes work.
***
You wrote: "By you're own words...You are not a "special and rare" person, therefore you cannot tell the difference between senses and spirit, nor can you tell the difference between the true God and satan."
Again, I have the advantage of spendig time with writings that are God-breathed.
***
You wrote: "Of course, the message you convey is contrary to what the book of Ephesians says about every Christian having the abilities that you attribute to only "special and rare" people."
No, the God-breathed text of Ephesians asserts that it was Paul who had the charge of bringing for the the mystery and no one else. All of us Christians have the ability to to operate the revelations manifestations, but we weren't all given the revelation of the doctrine. In that century only Paul was given that.
You're confusing this specialness that enables one person to get a job done with special favor.
***
You wrote: "In fact, your words cause division within the body of Christ because you falsely manufacture 2 categories of people within the body of Christ...those who are "special and rare" and those who are "normal"...or as I like to say, the "haves" and the "have nots"...this is totally contrary to what the bible teaches. Is it any wonder that people think you are a buffoon?"
It is no wonder that people (like you especially in this case) are like sheep and need a shepherd. You have totally missed my point about specialness, so it is you who are engaged in buffoonery. God's Word points out that only a select few have brought us written doctrine. That doesn't make them special in the category of the Body of Christ, only special in what jobs they were given.
***
Let me explain this specialness more, so that even a buffoon can get it.
It's in the category of temperament, upbringing, even body chemistry. There can be a genetic component, and upbringing plays a part. God's prophets, His mouthpieces, need to withstand the fierce onslaught of the adversary who will try to prevent their bring forth and distributing God's Word for the first time. Once it's out there in the senses realm and distributed, the adversary's forces are diluted, but they are really concentrated on the prophet who brings it for th for the first time.
The specialness I brought up is NOT special favor or special standing. It's a special ability to hear God's voice and a special willingness to face the wrath of the adversary. In the Old Testament prophets were rare. Sometimes hundreds of years would go by with none around. In the New Testament, God tried to get Peter to hear the mystery but he just wasn't up to it. Paul was, and Peter finally acknowledged him.
John the Baptist was one of these special people, in fact, the most special. How he had spirit before he had soul I have no idea, but it's there in print.
On page 23 of "The Bible Tells Me So" Dr handles II Corinthians 9:8, which says "And God is able, to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things may abound to every good work."
He then goes on to teach (with my bold fonts):
"Have we been limiting God in our lives? We must be if we do not have all sufficiency in everything. Sufficiency is the will of God for His children in order that His children may abound unto every good work. Our having sufficiency is God’s will for us; yet how many of us have limited God by not allowing Him to fulfill this promise in our lives? How slow we have been to realize that God is our ability, that He is the life of our lives, the strength of our strength, that He is our sufficiency.
"We frequently limit God in ourselves by our wrong believing, by accepting the knowledge that comes to us through our senses. Our reason says, “That just cannot be,” and so we confess the negative, when all the time His spirit within us is crying out, “Sufficiency in everything.” We have been so schooled to revere the knowledge that comes to us through our five senses that we fail to recognize the knowledge that comes from the higher realm, the spiritual, where the Word of God, and not reason, has first place."
We are so slow because we revere reason and sense knowledge, but we CAN change.
*****
Now, I'm tired and must get some sleep. I hope this makes sense tomorrow.
I came back to PFAL and started studying it intensely 7 years ago. That is what gives me an edge, not any specialness of my own. Come back and you can have it too. It takes work.
The thing is, this coming back to PFAL, it wasnt exactly a calm period of reflection.
As you described it once,
"The incredible pain I had for ten years following the meltdown regarding the elusive and mysterious
behaviour of so many previously wonderful leaders is gone!
There were nights I literally didn't sleep a wink I was so angry or perplexed with how the top
leaders abandoned us in 1987 or so. When I met seaspray, he told me that for the past 15
years he had thought about the ministry meltdown EVERY SINGLE DAY since then.
I could relate to that!
He was ready to accept the answers I had accepted and he too felt exhilerated"
I trust nobody needs me to connect the dots there.
After reading Mike's response to my questions, my only conclusion is that he is insane.
He has been confronted by a multitude of people at the GreaseSpot, his errors have been pointed out to him, his convoluted logic has been made plain for all to see, his idolatry has been the source of his own humiliation. He has decided that no matter what, he will NOT admit his errors. He is a man whose soul is saturated with deception, whose mind is reprobate and whose heart is filled with little black crows, furiously flapping their wings in the direction of nowhere.
His circular reasoning becomes a source of frustration for anyone who tries to help him. He confuses the unshakable stand of a prophet with the stubborness of an foot. At the juncture where most of us departed from Wierwille's false doctrines and redeemed our minds, Mike chose the opposite direction and dove headfirst into the depths of deceit, like an ostrich with it's head in the sand, he refuses to acknowledge even the slightest smell of smoke, while his entire house of cards is being engulfed with the flames of the false prophet.
Observing this poor soul is sad indeed...but let the words of Mike serve as an example...a reminder to all of us...of what can happen to a person when they, not only allow, but enthusiatically invite, a dangerous cult into their inner chambers and break bread with the monster of New Knoxville....
You guys are so predisposed to get me wrong that you do it very well.
WW, you are continually trying to make me the subject of discussion here. I could deal with it but why bother. When I explain portions of my life it's to help those who want to know the deeper truths of PFAL, not to give the definitive, complete description of my life. I'm not going to bother to fine tune your understanding of me and my history. You'll just take it wrong in your determined effort to discredit what I say about PFAL.
Sometimes I will fine tune subjects regarding PFAL that you botch, though.
I regard PFAL as BOTH a set of keys to understand the riddles of the ancient scriptures AND revelation itself in written form.
You seem to think that God cannot engage in the process of giving us keys. You seem to think that if there is a set of keys to the scriptures, those keys cannot be authoritative themselves. PFAL is God pointing out to us grads what's right and what's not in the scriptures antiquity has given to and translated for us, and much more.
I'm amazed how dense an intelligent man like you can be, but you are just determined to keep those blinders tightly in place. You're unable to get the heart of what I say because of your bias. Yo are not seeking the truth, you are seeking to present yourself as an analyst of the truth.
******
Groucho,
I woke up this morning with a thought. Last hight I had a sentence as I wrote my post to you, but was too tired to run with it so I deleted it from my word processor before I finally posted it all. But now I feel better about posing it.
I'll admit, this special person stuff is a bit on my frontier of knowledge, so bear with me. I am a little surprised, though, that this stuff isn't well known by others.
Here's the line I deleted, but now feel better about. Jesus Christ was NOT one of those special people. He had to learn about God just like the rest of us normal people, from the scriptures.
I know this doesn't sit well with many. The reason for this is our culture is so saturated with mental images of Jesus being God that we still think that way, even though we've purged ourselves of the sentence "Jesus is God" and become comfortable with the sentence "Jesus Christ is NOT God." This is another case of getting the wording correct, but not the idea. WW seems to be an expert at this.
Jesus did not bring forth God's written Word, he obeyed it. He loved it from an early age and learned to become it, especially when he finally got spirit at age 30. The scriptures were his guide. The special people I've been talking about had to bring it forth, from scratch.
The kind of specialness I have been describing is related to the phrase I put in bold fonts from BTMS above where these special people were NOT schooled to revere the knowledge that comes via the 5-senses. Somehow these people are disconnected from the extreme reliance on senses input and humanreasoning, and were able to accept God's point of view even when it clashed with the world surrounding them. Somehow they are willing to go along with God's direct revelation in spite of the usual biological and social inhibitions.
How that works I don't know. How John the Baptist got spirit in the womb, I don't know. How Baalam prophesied FOR Israel when he was being paid to prophesy against them I don't know. But then again, we don't need to know. All we need to do is read God's written Word, in spite of how much it goes against cultural grains, and learn to accept it.
Here's how Dr described these special people who bring forth God's Word. This is from the The May/June 1983 issue of the Way Magazine in an article titled "Peace and Revelation" :
"Prophets have never been particularly popular. For example, Jesus Christ observed, as recorded in Matthew 13, “A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.” Prophets are men who dare never shrink from danger and men who hardly ever swim with the stream, the current of the times. Their path is seldom smooth or easy.
"The world never looks upon these men as being successful. They never win the competition as the most outstanding citizen of the community or the most popular one. But the true measure of a prophet’s success, class, is the measure of his faithfulness before God as God’s spokesman. A prophet’s success is never measured by how graciously his testimony of speaking God’s Word is received. He neither fears man nor seeks the praise of men. A prophet is a man of God who reverences and respects God first, last, only, and always. He seeks only God’s praise and blessing."
Like I said before, this is my frontier of knowledge. I've said what I know best in my best way. If anyone wants to pick it apart for contradictions, go for it. I won't bother listening to the criticism unless it's based on the written forms of PFAL, which I know few here are even close to accomplishing at this time. I'm thinking out lout here in these posts to help myself and to help those who want to know. Those who want to dwell on this area are wasting their time, but they won't be able to waste mine. I'm done with it until I learn more on it from God.
Several posters have accused Mike of idolatry, and I think this is blatant error and false accusations.
Mike believes that VP's books are God-Breathed. That's idolatry?
Idolatry is the worship of other gods. How is Mike worshipping other gods?
If what Mike believes is idolatry, then perhaps those who believe the Bible is God Breathed, are idolatrous as well. Or is that called bibliolatry? Same deal tho'...worship of other gods.
Just replace VP Wierwille with your favorite bible writer.
Mike has strong faith in his belief, and many of us think he is in error. But idolatry? blah.
Mike, you are not my brother, because Jesus Christ is not your Lord.
Thing about it is, Groucho, is that Smikeol's example can be (and has often been) practiced anytime and anywhere that anybody is this blind without critical thought when it comes to any religion, mainstream or fringe, the 'cult' label notwithstanding. 'False doctrine' really has little, if anything, to do with it.
I've seen this kind of mentally goosestepping behavior in various Baptists, Catholics, Muslims, et al, whenever either their dogma is challenged with scientific fact, or anybody makes the personal desicion not to accept their 'god' or 'savior', or their favorite leadership is not followed. TWI provides but one small textbook example of this.
You guys are so predisposed to get me wrong that you do it very well.
Well now, Smikeol, as much as we'd all like to take the credit and glory in doing that, in all honesty, we just cannot. I mean, you get quite a bit of credit yourself in doing that as well. ...
... as in the majority of the time.
:lol:
Belle,
I've decided to try out the new "ignore" feature on Mike and Alan and it's really cool. I highly recommend it!!
Has the amount of posts that you see shrunk considerably? ;) :lol:
You are not at all accurate when you say "whenever" and "every time." I do this sparingly and only on SOME threads. Sometimes I'm dragged in. ..
******
Point taken Mike. Absolute terms like "whenever" and "every time" are almost always wrong when applied to human behavior. I should have said, "usually" or "seemingly every time".
...PFAL, on the other hand, clarifies and fits in perfectly with the doctrines of the Bible. That'a a HUGE difference you seem to have overlooked.
Mike, this statement has been proven wrong so many times. There are dozens of areas where PFAL contradicts the Bible. How about "The Great Principle" for instance. According to PFAL, God cannot communicate with a natural man without "coming into concretion". On page 78, paragraph two of POWER FOR ABUNDANT LIVING, we read the following (emphasis added).
"We have seen from John 4:24 that God is spirit. God being spirit can only speak to what he is. God cannot speak to the natural human mind. The Word could not come by the will of man because the will of man is in the natural realm. God being spirit can only speak to what he is-spirit. Things in the natural realm may be known by the five senses - seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, and touching. But God is spirit, and therefore, cannot speak to brain cells; God cannot speak to a person's mind."
This statement is the foundation of what is taught in the Intermediate and Advanced Classes as The Great Principle. [God, who is spirit, teaches His creation in you which is now your spirit and your spirit teaches your mind. Then it becomes manifested in the senses realm as you act.] This foundation is shaky at best. There are clear and dramatic examples in God's Word of Him speaking directly to natural men without spirit in or upon them. Consider the following from Genesis 20:1-3
1 And Abraham journeyed from thence toward the south country, and dwelled between Kadesh and Shur, and sojourned in Gerar.
2 And Abraham said of Sarah his wife, She is my sister: and Abimelech king of Gerar sent, and took Sarah.
3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, thou art but a dead man, for the woman which thou hast taken; for she is a man's wife.
God gave information to King Abimelech, a man who is not described in the Bible as a prophet or seer. He didn't "come into concretion" as VP asserted. He spoke to him in a DREAM. Which of Abimelech's five senses did God use? Sight? No, your eyes are closed when you dream. Sound? Touch? Taste? You get the idea. Dreams occur complete within the human MIND. The MIND that PFAL says is beyond the reach of God. This is just one clear example of how PFAL contradicts the Bible.
There are many, many others, too numerous to mention here. The body/soul/spirit, formed/made/created construct is beautiful, as logical construct go, but doesn't agree with Genesis. It's obviously not based on painstaking biblical research. Likewise, Dr Weirwille's supposedly scientifically precise definitions of Greek words like apeithia, apistia, heteros, allos, and especially pros, are all nonsense when compared to Biblical usage. Rafael's Actual Errors in PFAL has amply demonstrated this, as has the PFAL Review
The Class has some good things in it, but it is by no means the perfect presentation of truth you so adamantly declare it to be. It's a confusing half-baked mish mash of equal parts truth and error. Why not just accept it for what it is, and get on with your life?
Several posters have accused Mike of idolatry, and I think this is blatant error and false accusations.
Mike believes that VP's books are God-Breathed. That's idolatry?
Idolatry is the worship of other gods. How is Mike worshipping other gods?
That's nice, Oldiesman.
Mikes false god is an apologist for thievery, his false Christ needs PFAL to increase his understanding of God, and his false prophet is even a distortion of the Wierwille you respect.
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The law of believing has nothing to do with "mind power". It doesn't have anything to do with: "believing in the promises of God and His willingness to perform them" either, although for the Christia
Jbarrax
Hi Bob. The thread didn't actually "take a turn". It was turned by the ubiquitous madman, Mikeol. Whenever anyone brings up the issue of VP plagiarizing, Mike feels compelled to leap to the defense of his god and spews his particular brand of insanity.
It's kind of like trying to have a fellowship meeting at an open air cafe in Greenwich Village and every time you sit down and start to chat, the homeless babbling nutcase thinks you're there to hear his sermon and jumps on a soapbox. It's unavoidable, but the fellowship is worth the distraction.
In time you learn to tune him out.
Peace
JerryB
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Mike
Jbarrax,
You are not at all accurate when you say "whenever" and "every time." I do this sparingly and only on SOME threads. Sometimes I'm dragged in.
******
Bob,
I'd be happy to bow out of your thread if you asked. I can't remember how I got so involved in this one. I did notice that you were somewhat absent before I got started.
******
templelady,
Yes, I'm aware of the extra-biblical similarities between my message and Mormonism, but that's where the similarities end.
I have spent MANY hours discussing LDS stuff with Mormons. They haven't a clue what's in the Epistles of Paul, no matter how much they claim to accept the Bible. Their doctrine vastly contradicts many important Biblical doctrines.
PFAL, on the other hand, clarifies and fits in perfectly with the doctrines of the Bible. That'a a HUGE difference you seem to have overlooked.
******
Now, my head is spinning a little with all the other responses I'd LIKE to make that have accumulated against me since noon. If anyone gets missed, please bring up your points again. I have no idea how much energy I have left to cover two threads worth.
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Mike
Mr Hammeroni,
I had written to you as you mocked what you thought was a lack of fruit or results in my life: "Wasn't there mockery similar to yours thrown in Jesus' face as he hung on the cross."
You responded with: "But you sir, are not Jesus. And why you continue to pretend to be, I have no idea.."
Oh YES YOU DO! The pretense totally originated with you. In THIS case I was not pretending to be or even comparing myself with Jesus. There ARE many cases where we SHOULD act like, compare ourselves with, and even step into the shoes of Jesus Christ, and if in this case i were doing that and you objected I'd point out the false sense of humility that you would be pretending with such a criticism of me.
But in THIS case I was not making a comparison and seeing similarities between me and Jesus, nor between me and Joseph, nor between me and Paul, the latter two you seemed to leave out of your criticism.
No in THIS case I was comparing YOU with those who mocked Jesus saying that his difficult situation on the cross indicated a lack of connection between him and God.
I was comparing YOU with a hypothetical critic of Paul or Joseph in their difficulties.
Now, since you missed the point so badly, maybe you should go back and re-read my post.
******
Belle,
You wrote: "Mike *thinks* he has the right to judge and question the fruit in anyones' life, but for someone to question the fruit in his life....well, that's just WRONG!"
I didn't question the fruit n others' lives; I challenged THEM to question it. Too many people are content to think they are on the right track if they are happy. Conversely, when persecution and torment arise, many people (or their neighbors) think they must be on the WRONG track.
It's in these kinds of situations that Dr taught us that experience is no guarantee for truth. We can't look at our experiences to determine what right doctrine is. God's Word guarantees that those who live godly lives are going to be pursued by persecution and mental pressure. If we apply correct doctrine in a correct manner that persecution won't catch us and we can deal with the pressure.
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Mike
GrouchoMarxJr
You asked: "...and who decides who the normal people are?...You?"
No, by default we ALL are normal. The very few special prophets are chosen by God. He decided in the OT who could get spirit upon them and who could not. He WANTED all of Israel to have it, but they didn't cooperate. In the NT God decides who gets what jobs.
***
You asked: "God had to search far and wide for very special and rare people...says who?...You?"
No, the Bible says this. Just look at how rare it was that people had spirit upon them in the OT. In Moses time it once occurred that 70 got it and it was a big deal.
***
You asked: "Am I to assume that YOU have decided that I am a "normal" person and not a "special and rare" person?...If so, how did you conclude this?"
If you were the type who was chosen to bring forth the Word, then you'd be the one teaching right doctrine. Instead you just post on GreaseSpot your opinions like normal people.
***
You asked: "I noticed that you included yourself in the category of being a "normal" person when you used the word "We"...Seeing that you have concluded that you, yourself, are not a "special and rare" person, why do you believe that your spiritual insights are more valid than anyone else's here at the GreaseSpot?...especially when you define the "special and rare" people as those "who could tell the difference between senses and spirit and between the true God and satan"?"
I came back to PFAL and started studying it intensely 7 years ago. That is what gives me an edge, not any specialness of my own. Come back and you can have it too. It takes work.
***
You wrote: "By you're own words...You are not a "special and rare" person, therefore you cannot tell the difference between senses and spirit, nor can you tell the difference between the true God and satan."
Again, I have the advantage of spendig time with writings that are God-breathed.
***
You wrote: "Of course, the message you convey is contrary to what the book of Ephesians says about every Christian having the abilities that you attribute to only "special and rare" people."
No, the God-breathed text of Ephesians asserts that it was Paul who had the charge of bringing for the the mystery and no one else. All of us Christians have the ability to to operate the revelations manifestations, but we weren't all given the revelation of the doctrine. In that century only Paul was given that.
You're confusing this specialness that enables one person to get a job done with special favor.
***
You wrote: "In fact, your words cause division within the body of Christ because you falsely manufacture 2 categories of people within the body of Christ...those who are "special and rare" and those who are "normal"...or as I like to say, the "haves" and the "have nots"...this is totally contrary to what the bible teaches. Is it any wonder that people think you are a buffoon?"
It is no wonder that people (like you especially in this case) are like sheep and need a shepherd. You have totally missed my point about specialness, so it is you who are engaged in buffoonery. God's Word points out that only a select few have brought us written doctrine. That doesn't make them special in the category of the Body of Christ, only special in what jobs they were given.
***
Let me explain this specialness more, so that even a buffoon can get it.
It's in the category of temperament, upbringing, even body chemistry. There can be a genetic component, and upbringing plays a part. God's prophets, His mouthpieces, need to withstand the fierce onslaught of the adversary who will try to prevent their bring forth and distributing God's Word for the first time. Once it's out there in the senses realm and distributed, the adversary's forces are diluted, but they are really concentrated on the prophet who brings it for th for the first time.
The specialness I brought up is NOT special favor or special standing. It's a special ability to hear God's voice and a special willingness to face the wrath of the adversary. In the Old Testament prophets were rare. Sometimes hundreds of years would go by with none around. In the New Testament, God tried to get Peter to hear the mystery but he just wasn't up to it. Paul was, and Peter finally acknowledged him.
John the Baptist was one of these special people, in fact, the most special. How he had spirit before he had soul I have no idea, but it's there in print.
On page 23 of "The Bible Tells Me So" Dr handles II Corinthians 9:8, which says "And God is able, to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things may abound to every good work."
He then goes on to teach (with my bold fonts):
"Have we been limiting God in our lives? We must be if we do not have all sufficiency in everything. Sufficiency is the will of God for His children in order that His children may abound unto every good work. Our having sufficiency is God’s will for us; yet how many of us have limited God by not allowing Him to fulfill this promise in our lives? How slow we have been to realize that God is our ability, that He is the life of our lives, the strength of our strength, that He is our sufficiency.
"We frequently limit God in ourselves by our wrong believing, by accepting the knowledge that comes to us through our senses. Our reason says, “That just cannot be,” and so we confess the negative, when all the time His spirit within us is crying out, “Sufficiency in everything.” We have been so schooled to revere the knowledge that comes to us through our five senses that we fail to recognize the knowledge that comes from the higher realm, the spiritual, where the Word of God, and not reason, has first place."
We are so slow because we revere reason and sense knowledge, but we CAN change.
*****
Now, I'm tired and must get some sleep. I hope this makes sense tomorrow.
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CM
if it's truth mike you don't need to defend it
ever hear that one?
why you could just not say anything at all!
you say you are trying to help
but you are not telling the truth
you are looking for followers of yourself
and wish to abuse them as vpw did
you are envious of what vpw had
and you think you can get it
it's a shame that you can't see past your own selfishness
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Mike
CM,
Yes, I've heard that, and act on it whenever I chose to dodge.
I also like to teach truth, even to some who don't want to hear it, because who knows who's listening in.
I'm sorry to hear of your problem as you attempt to project it on me.
I'll pray for you, but it won't do you any good unless you obey the man of God and come back to PFAL. God put a treasure in there for you.
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WordWolf
Mike's definition of "truth" is a non-standard one.
Mike's definition of "teach" is a non-standard one.
Mike is a non-standard kind of guy.
If he was an intellectual, he might be a Glass Bead Game Player.
(Supposing he found Magister Ludi interesting, of course.)
This "teaching truth" seems distilled in a handful of doctrines,
that is,
that the Bible has been retired out by God in favour of a new Bible written by vpw.
When page 4 of the Orange Book says
"This is a book containing Biblical keys. The contents herein do not teach the Scriptures from
Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21: rather, it is designed to set before the reader the basic
keys in the Word of God so that Genesis to Revelation will unfold"
Mike considers this invalid.
Mike says the Orange Book is not KEYS to Scripture-it is Scripture.
Mike gets this from a secret gnostic understanding of page 4.
Since Mike has no problems, any disagreements with posters here are due tofailings on behalf of the posters. QED.
There's the famous commercial.
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WordWolf
The thing is, this coming back to PFAL, it wasnt exactly a calm period of reflection.
As you described it once,
I trust nobody needs me to connect the dots there.
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Brother Speed
That's okay WW.
As soon as my head stops spinning from Mike talking in circles, I think the dots will connect themselves.
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CM
And if you don't think that's love
Just wait till the day of the Lord falls on you.
You have been warned.
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Brother Speed
It's really just this simple:
If you obey principle, you reap the benefits.
If you disobey principle, you reap the consequences.
It does not matter what dogma you flavor it with.
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GrouchoMarxJr
After reading Mike's response to my questions, my only conclusion is that he is insane.
He has been confronted by a multitude of people at the GreaseSpot, his errors have been pointed out to him, his convoluted logic has been made plain for all to see, his idolatry has been the source of his own humiliation. He has decided that no matter what, he will NOT admit his errors. He is a man whose soul is saturated with deception, whose mind is reprobate and whose heart is filled with little black crows, furiously flapping their wings in the direction of nowhere.
His circular reasoning becomes a source of frustration for anyone who tries to help him. He confuses the unshakable stand of a prophet with the stubborness of an foot. At the juncture where most of us departed from Wierwille's false doctrines and redeemed our minds, Mike chose the opposite direction and dove headfirst into the depths of deceit, like an ostrich with it's head in the sand, he refuses to acknowledge even the slightest smell of smoke, while his entire house of cards is being engulfed with the flames of the false prophet.
Observing this poor soul is sad indeed...but let the words of Mike serve as an example...a reminder to all of us...of what can happen to a person when they, not only allow, but enthusiatically invite, a dangerous cult into their inner chambers and break bread with the monster of New Knoxville....
Mike is to be pitied.
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Ham
Scary thing.. it could have been me as well..
and it was for a time.
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Mike
You guys are so predisposed to get me wrong that you do it very well.
WW, you are continually trying to make me the subject of discussion here. I could deal with it but why bother. When I explain portions of my life it's to help those who want to know the deeper truths of PFAL, not to give the definitive, complete description of my life. I'm not going to bother to fine tune your understanding of me and my history. You'll just take it wrong in your determined effort to discredit what I say about PFAL.
Sometimes I will fine tune subjects regarding PFAL that you botch, though.
I regard PFAL as BOTH a set of keys to understand the riddles of the ancient scriptures AND revelation itself in written form.
You seem to think that God cannot engage in the process of giving us keys. You seem to think that if there is a set of keys to the scriptures, those keys cannot be authoritative themselves. PFAL is God pointing out to us grads what's right and what's not in the scriptures antiquity has given to and translated for us, and much more.
I'm amazed how dense an intelligent man like you can be, but you are just determined to keep those blinders tightly in place. You're unable to get the heart of what I say because of your bias. Yo are not seeking the truth, you are seeking to present yourself as an analyst of the truth.
******
Groucho,
I woke up this morning with a thought. Last hight I had a sentence as I wrote my post to you, but was too tired to run with it so I deleted it from my word processor before I finally posted it all. But now I feel better about posing it.
I'll admit, this special person stuff is a bit on my frontier of knowledge, so bear with me. I am a little surprised, though, that this stuff isn't well known by others.
Here's the line I deleted, but now feel better about. Jesus Christ was NOT one of those special people. He had to learn about God just like the rest of us normal people, from the scriptures.
I know this doesn't sit well with many. The reason for this is our culture is so saturated with mental images of Jesus being God that we still think that way, even though we've purged ourselves of the sentence "Jesus is God" and become comfortable with the sentence "Jesus Christ is NOT God." This is another case of getting the wording correct, but not the idea. WW seems to be an expert at this.
Jesus did not bring forth God's written Word, he obeyed it. He loved it from an early age and learned to become it, especially when he finally got spirit at age 30. The scriptures were his guide. The special people I've been talking about had to bring it forth, from scratch.
The kind of specialness I have been describing is related to the phrase I put in bold fonts from BTMS above where these special people were NOT schooled to revere the knowledge that comes via the 5-senses. Somehow these people are disconnected from the extreme reliance on senses input and human reasoning, and were able to accept God's point of view even when it clashed with the world surrounding them. Somehow they are willing to go along with God's direct revelation in spite of the usual biological and social inhibitions.
How that works I don't know. How John the Baptist got spirit in the womb, I don't know. How Baalam prophesied FOR Israel when he was being paid to prophesy against them I don't know. But then again, we don't need to know. All we need to do is read God's written Word, in spite of how much it goes against cultural grains, and learn to accept it.
Here's how Dr described these special people who bring forth God's Word. This is from the The May/June 1983 issue of the Way Magazine in an article titled "Peace and Revelation" :
"Prophets have never been particularly popular. For example, Jesus Christ observed, as recorded in Matthew 13, “A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.” Prophets are men who dare never shrink from danger and men who hardly ever swim with the stream, the current of the times. Their path is seldom smooth or easy.
"The world never looks upon these men as being successful. They never win the competition as the most outstanding citizen of the community or the most popular one. But the true measure of a prophet’s success, class, is the measure of his faithfulness before God as God’s spokesman. A prophet’s success is never measured by how graciously his testimony of speaking God’s Word is received. He neither fears man nor seeks the praise of men. A prophet is a man of God who reverences and respects God first, last, only, and always. He seeks only God’s praise and blessing."
Like I said before, this is my frontier of knowledge. I've said what I know best in my best way. If anyone wants to pick it apart for contradictions, go for it. I won't bother listening to the criticism unless it's based on the written forms of PFAL, which I know few here are even close to accomplishing at this time. I'm thinking out lout here in these posts to help myself and to help those who want to know. Those who want to dwell on this area are wasting their time, but they won't be able to waste mine. I'm done with it until I learn more on it from God.
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Belle
I've decided to try out the new "ignore" feature on Mike and Alan and it's really cool. I highly recommend it!!
Bob, I'm also anxiously awaiting Raf's comparison report. :)
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oldiesman
Several posters have accused Mike of idolatry, and I think this is blatant error and false accusations.
Mike believes that VP's books are God-Breathed. That's idolatry?
Idolatry is the worship of other gods. How is Mike worshipping other gods?
If what Mike believes is idolatry, then perhaps those who believe the Bible is God Breathed, are idolatrous as well. Or is that called bibliolatry? Same deal tho'...worship of other gods.
Just replace VP Wierwille with your favorite bible writer.
Mike has strong faith in his belief, and many of us think he is in error. But idolatry? blah.
I think this is quite presumptuous.Link to comment
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GarthP2000
Thing about it is, Groucho, is that Smikeol's example can be (and has often been) practiced anytime and anywhere that anybody is this blind without critical thought when it comes to any religion, mainstream or fringe, the 'cult' label notwithstanding. 'False doctrine' really has little, if anything, to do with it.
I've seen this kind of mentally goosestepping behavior in various Baptists, Catholics, Muslims, et al, whenever either their dogma is challenged with scientific fact, or anybody makes the personal desicion not to accept their 'god' or 'savior', or their favorite leadership is not followed. TWI provides but one small textbook example of this.
Well now, Smikeol, as much as we'd all like to take the credit and glory in doing that, in all honesty, we just cannot. I mean, you get quite a bit of credit yourself in doing that as well. ...... as in the majority of the time.
:lol:
Belle,
Has the amount of posts that you see shrunk considerably? ;) :lol:
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Jbarrax
Point taken Mike. Absolute terms like "whenever" and "every time" are almost always wrong when applied to human behavior. I should have said, "usually" or "seemingly every time".
Mike, this statement has been proven wrong so many times. There are dozens of areas where PFAL contradicts the Bible. How about "The Great Principle" for instance. According to PFAL, God cannot communicate with a natural man without "coming into concretion". On page 78, paragraph two of POWER FOR ABUNDANT LIVING, we read the following (emphasis added).This statement is the foundation of what is taught in the Intermediate and Advanced Classes as The Great Principle. [God, who is spirit, teaches His creation in you which is now your spirit and your spirit teaches your mind. Then it becomes manifested in the senses realm as you act.] This foundation is shaky at best. There are clear and dramatic examples in God's Word of Him speaking directly to natural men without spirit in or upon them. Consider the following from Genesis 20:1-3
God gave information to King Abimelech, a man who is not described in the Bible as a prophet or seer. He didn't "come into concretion" as VP asserted. He spoke to him in a DREAM. Which of Abimelech's five senses did God use? Sight? No, your eyes are closed when you dream. Sound? Touch? Taste? You get the idea. Dreams occur complete within the human MIND. The MIND that PFAL says is beyond the reach of God. This is just one clear example of how PFAL contradicts the Bible.
There are many, many others, too numerous to mention here. The body/soul/spirit, formed/made/created construct is beautiful, as logical construct go, but doesn't agree with Genesis. It's obviously not based on painstaking biblical research. Likewise, Dr Weirwille's supposedly scientifically precise definitions of Greek words like apeithia, apistia, heteros, allos, and especially pros, are all nonsense when compared to Biblical usage. Rafael's Actual Errors in PFAL has amply demonstrated this, as has the PFAL Review
The Class has some good things in it, but it is by no means the perfect presentation of truth you so adamantly declare it to be. It's a confusing half-baked mish mash of equal parts truth and error. Why not just accept it for what it is, and get on with your life?
Peace
JerryB
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Raf
I hit the ignore thing yesterday. It's quite liberating.
I haven't received the books yet. I'll be eager to report back once I do. Trying to keep an open mind on it.
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Belle
Yeppers! And you'd be amazed at how many posts you can get on a page, too!! :D :P
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Raf
That's nice, Oldiesman.
Mikes false god is an apologist for thievery, his false Christ needs PFAL to increase his understanding of God, and his false prophet is even a distortion of the Wierwille you respect.
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oldiesman
I think you are laying on some heavy false accusations against Mike, regarding his supposed false god and Christ.
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Raf
That's nice, Oldiesman.
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CM
Thanks for the edit, moderators.
Sometimes that southern redneck comes up in me.
--
Thankfully I don't have to face what mike will face.
But he will come out of it alive. But will suffer lose.
And to think what could be even still....
Even the most vicious offenders of Christ will
be given life because of one man, Jesus.
Even though they spit in his face and work against
what he has accomplished and refuse the Christ
This is why it's the goodness of God that leads
a man to repentence. The truth will be in their face.
They will shutup then and see and hear
wether they like it or not.
This is hell, a lot more for some then others.
How long for each person? I don't know.
It's not my call. Thankfully...
And as they say..
you made your bed now lay in it
but it will all be forgotten in the new
heavens and earth
And how it all works out i know little of.
Edited by CMLink to comment
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