VPW's Source for the Law of Believing

[rascal]

The condemnation comes because many of us have seen first hand the death and destruction caused by your *positive message*

Your pretty repackaging and fancy new lable cannot mask the stench emminating from the product you offer.

We aren`t having ANY of it, no matter how you mislable it.

[bliss]

Mike,

I respect your choice to share what you believe. I may not agree. Actually, I don't agree. But that is ok.

I don't need to go over all the "inside'' stuff. I have read through most of your posts, and it was enough for me to make my own decision.

Everyone else,

We all may think Mike is off his rocker, but that is what makes this forum so great. We can agree or disagree and nobody will "kick us out". Isn't that what we all wanted from the Way? Free speech to speak up when we disagreed? All I know is ............

YOU CANNOT CHANGE MIKES MIND! This should be obvious from the bazzillion posts he's had.

Nor, can HE CHANGE YOURS.

But, don't you think it keeps things exciting around here? I mean, come on, you'd be bored without Mike around challenging your patience........... but you all eg him on.

The only reason for most posts is to help or share our experiences with others that have been in the Way, right?

So we do it for them. Not to change the other person's mind. It just ain't gonna happen.(Esp. in Mike's case.....)

Maybe I am preaching to the choir here, someone might have said this before more than a few, but I am

not an avid poster, nor do I intend to be. So I call it like I see it.

Like it or not. :P

[CM]

rascal,

You wrote: "Mike, you disparage that which God has seen fit to supply by."

Funny, I though the same of you. You spit on the revelations God gave to Dr and his team of editors and that they put into print.

one of the most obvious slavery tactics mike has been using

how's slavery these days mike, lonely?

aaahhh man, i suppose you can have it

i'll pass on enslaving myself to any person

Tell me mike what fruit have you seen in your life?

[Mike]

LG,

Thank you, for your ability to write civilly in the midst of a bar room fight like this. I almost didn't see it slip by me in ruckus.

You wrote: "What is it that you see in PFAL (all the writings) that you think is "gospel?" The whole collection is primarily exposition of a few parts of the Bible. In fact, most of the "Studies in Abundant Living" are just transcriptions of teaching sermons."

I simply obeyed Dr's final instructions to master the written forms of written PFAL. This was somewhat out of desperation, and somewhat out of extreme curiosity. I was impressed at how well the devil had hid that last teaching from so many. For Dr's last teaching to be so totally lost to so many top leaders that said they loved him and that t hey followed his teachings, it got my attention. It was an extreme anomaly, like a burning bush that wasn't consumed. I am STILL running into grads who never even HEARD of his last teaching, thinking that "The Hope" was it.

Once I came back and started seriously reading with meekness I saw MANY things I had forgotten or that had slipped past me unawares.

***

You wrote: "Wierwille never claimed that his writings were "God's Word" or gospel. He claimed that they were essentially either keys to understanding the Bible or expositions of portions of the Bible."

Well, THIS is one topic that slipped past YOU unawares. I have found about 90 places where Dr DID claim to be giving us God's Word, unlike the man-made attempts to re-construct and translate the ancient scriptures. Many of those 90 places are subtle, I'll admit that, but at least 20 of them are sledge hammers. We just got in habit of tuning them out. Maybe I'll do a thread on them. In the old GreaseSpot's PTs I did such a thread and got twenty into writing. If you want I can send you the text through this new board's PM system.

In my studies I've seen that the text in between the many KJV verses Dr quotes are many astounding revelations. Many things are taught there about the return of Christ that are subtle but interesting enough to cause me to re-think everything I thought I knew about the Appearing. God slipped in the PFAL texts an amazing amount of information that only the meek and obedient can see. We were not meek and obedient to the revelations God fed Dr over a period of almost 43 years. Most of my previous activity in absorbing PFAL was spent in fine tuning my KJV verses in the wide margin, and I paid little heed to the text in between the verses Dr quoted.

*******

bliss,

Thank YOU TOO for your insights AND for your civility. Yes, I am locked in and have closed my mind. I've admitted that many times here. I searched until I was 50 years old and then decided what I was going to commit the rest of my life to.

I would have like to devote a separate post to respond to you, but this board has a "squishing feature" that prevents that.

Did you get my PM the other day?

[Raf]

Bliss,

I've never asked Mike to leave, nor have I ever tried to silence him. In fact, I invited him to LES.

[rascal]

All I know is life with pfal = misery and pain, betrayal, and poverty.

life without pfal = peace joy prosperity blessings.

The things I enjoy in my life are all indicactions according to the scriptures of God`s blessings.

You spit on that which God has freely given, and offer in return, a life of endless works, bondage and hoop jumping in an attempt to eventually achieve access to God`s goodness.

Scriptures tell me there was two great commandments..... Scriptures tell me who to trust by giving me a check list of specific fruit to examine......in utilizing this information, I can safely and comfortably concur that pfal was a lie.

I understand, it is necessary....you HAVE to disparage what God has done in our lives otherwise it is poof positive that you are mistaken...that we don`t need to jump through the hoops of false doctrine.

If you can make us look bad or mislable God`s blessings, as bribes....it makes you feel a little better.

Edited October 3, 2005 by rascal

[Mike]

CM,

Tell me what fruit did Joseph see in his life at the point two days before Pharaoh sprung him from prison.

Tell me what fruit did Paul see in his life as he wrote Ephesians, Philippians, and Colossians from his prison cell.

Wasn't there mockery similar to yours thrown in Jesus' face as he hung on the cross.

You're not a very accurate living book. You're missing a few chapters. If you want to see the great joy I have you'll have to come back to the written forms of PFAL (not the verbal corrupted forms, rascal) and get it yourself.

If you're such a great book, why aren't you out letting those who never heard the gospel read you right now. What are you doing here talking to those who already heard?

******

rascal,

Gain does NOT prove godliness. There are lots of VERY devilish people with great wealth and happiness... for now.

******

Raf,

For every invitation you've given me you've insulted me 50 times.

That's not much motivation for me to come to church with YOU.

Edited October 3, 2005 by Mike

[rascal]

Ummm you are looking at circumstances....NOT fruit of the spirit Mike....Galations is quite clear about what fruit will be demonstrated by men of the spirit vs men of the flesh.

I know that you would like to avoid topic entirely since it soundly brands vp for the man of the flesh he was and AS such is completely unworthey of trust and devoid of credility.

As a matter of fact galations says that one such as he .... has NO inheritance in the kingdom of heaven.

I refuse to place my trust in the writing of a man proven to be of the flesh, it would be extremely foolish....sorry Mike.

As for reading me? I certainly am not the one trying to deny the blessings of God in order to make my product look appealing.

I am a simply a woman gratefull to enjoy what God has seen fit to freely and lovingly give, who is incensed and deeply offended that you would chose to denegrate what he has so generously bestowed.

Edited October 3, 2005 by rascal

[Mike]

rascal,

Because you are so focused on the flesh, you may have to wait for some of your close friends to come back to PFAL and they THEY might be able to show you the truths in there are bigger than Dr.

You can't examine Dr's life for spiritual fruit. He's long gone. If you witnessed any of his sin first hand, it's STILL just a flesh observation. I think most of your "observations" is looking at the flesh testimony of a very few others who did see something (along with the chorus behind them who are also not first hand witnesses.)

I feel for those who were hurt directly. In some limited ways I was one. I greatly pondered this dilemma, and saw that Uriah's family had it too. I searched God's heart for how to deal with it.

You don't know written PFAL; you only know the TVT, the Twi Verbal Traditions, and the great misery they brought. That's all just about all ANY of us have in mind now when we think of PFAL. I was able to distinguish between the two ONLY after I came back and looked at what was actually written.

If it helps any, what is written is NOT Dr, but the team effort that went into what got written. He had editors, and the plagiarism freaks will tell you that a lot of the material came not from Dr.

I'm convinced that Dr was not the real author, but it came from God.

If you insist on looking at the flesh and the flesh stories, then you will forever be blind to the great blessings that await us in written PFAL , blessings MUCH greater than the average American bounty you described.

Edited October 3, 2005 by Mike

[rascal]

Mike it is simply the difference between the genuine and the counterfit.

I have been on both sides of this issue....sure, counterfit LOOKS good, but genuine is always better :)

*Average American Bounty* there ya go denegrating God`s goodness again sigh

The joy, the blessings ...not to mention the PEACE in my life after ditching pfal ..... is all the indication I need to know that vp`s writings are lies.

[GarthP2000]

You folks *know* that Smikeol is getting quite desperate when he uses 1984ish, Orwellian, 'good is bad, and bad is good' logic in his posts. :blink:

I just hope that he's all comfy in that padded cell of his. ..... and when did mental institutions start giving internet access to their maximum security patients? :huh:

[GrouchoMarxJr]

Mike says to Hammeroni..."You are not in a position to really examine the fruits in another person's life, only your own."

But yet Mike feels perfectly qualified in declaring that we are "normal people" and not those special people who God gave revelation to when His word was written...HYPOCRITE!...

[Mike]

rascal,

You wrote: "I have been on both sides of this issue"

There's more than two sides! I'm offering the OTHER other side.

I don't think you've tried out the side of meekly mastering written PFAL, AFTER it was all completed in 1985, and ONLY PFAL with no contamination mixed it.

This has been strenuously avoided by absolutely every grad, and ESPECIALLY the top leadership. Refusing to do what dr told them to do from 1975 to 1985 is what all the nasty top leadership have in common with all the nice ones.

Coming back to written PFAL is THE unturned stone.

If you're done searching and are content with not being even close to doing ALL the things that Jesus Christ did, then you wont look there. In my search I left no stone unturned. I looked everwhere I could.

******

Garth and Groucho,

I'd love to respond to the great depth and content of your posts, but I must be off to work. Maybe next time. Hold those thoughts (I'm sure yo will).

Edited October 3, 2005 by Mike

[rascal]

I cannot BELIEVE that I missed THAT....

Examining the fruit of others peoples lives is EXACTLY what scriptures instructed us to do in able to correctly identify OTHER people of the spirit...and to be abl;e to identify and avoid people of the flesh.

You Mike are LYING about what God specifially directs us scripturally to do....ie examine one another for the specific fruit of the spirit listed in galations in order to know whether to embrace or avoid a person.

I understand that you need to distract people from scripture in order to get them to consider the premise of writings of a man of the flesh.

But don`t think we will let you get away with it unchallenged.

[Belle]

Mike *thinks* he has the right to judge and question the fruit in anyones' life, but for someone to question the fruit in his life....well, that's just WRONG! :huh: :blink:

In Raf's not so many words:

[Ham]

Wasn't there mockery similar to yours thrown in Jesus' face as he hung on the cross.

But you sir, are not Jesus. And why you continue to pretend to be, I have no idea..

The Lord Jesus Christ indeed was who he claimed to be..

Abusive, broken down, aduterous, idolatrous drambuie guzzlers need not apply for the position..

[CM]

Mike -

GALATIONNS-says what the fruit is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

YO- JOHN says LOVE LOVE LOVE!!!!!!!!!

friggin' blind?

doesn't matter where you are

Nothing can stop God!

[templelady]

Without PFAL God's written Word is buried. Dr said this in "The Way - Living in Love" in 1971. Did WW cover that passage yet?

The Book of Mormon is a companion to the Bible

Without an accurate knowledge of the revelations God taught Dr and Dr put into written form we can never learn to hear the Word of God directly as that still small voice in the midst of the roaring winds of doctrine.

Joseph Smith received the restored gospel

"When you see Christ in his glory he will be holding a PFAL book in his hand and teaching you from it."

("So, Mike, you weren't kidding about JC coming with a PFAL book in his hand?")

"Totally serious. I've already seen him this way more than once."

There are other plates-not yet revealed-that will be revealed in the fullness of time

"Jesus Christ appointed Dr his spokesman. Jesus Christ is VERY interested in PFAL.

He told me so."

Joseph Smith was God's prophet

He believes "God's Word was LOST in the first century."

And "Your present approach has failed for all those who tried it for 2000 years."

THe BOM retores many plain and precious truths lost to mankind

"Serving people is important for Christians.

Therefore, master all three levels of PFAL

and serve them that.

Service is important in any CHristian walk whether LDS or not

"There are no answers outside the Way Ministry."

NO LDS person who truly inderstands the message of the BOM wouod ever claim this

Those who come back to PFAL are going to see that

Dr collected things BY REVELATION and that the whole collection is 2000 years unique and it is worth mastering with meekness

The gold and brass plates contained information garnered by revelation preserved for our mastering

================================================================================

===

Mike, Allan and company

I use these parallels--not to start a doctrinal thread but to point out that the same claims the same process', the same proofs. that you claim as incontrovertable where VPW is concerned while simultaneously deriding them as impossible where Joseph Smith, the BOM and the LDS Church are concerned.

As I said, this isn't about doctrine but take a look at your logic.

Plates can't be preserved for Joseph Smith's arrival but revelation for 2000 years can be retained for VPW??

MIke can have visions of Christ with a PFAL book, but Joseph Smith never had a vision in the sacred grove???

VPW's work is the only way we can hear God's word- but teaching the BOM expands and elaborates on the truths of the Bible is fiction???

I don't expect you to run out and join the LDS church or any church because of what I or others post, I don't demand that you agree with me or others doctrrinally--But if you are going to decry the claims of the LDS (or any faith ) for what they profess to have recieved from God, at least hold the same critical light to your own efforts.

[Allan]

The 'big' differnce is..the Book of Mormon has been shown to be a crock of cr*p !

It was 'supposed' to have been 'divinely' translated and written into the English of today !

Check out the myriad of ex-Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints sites !

yahoo search brings up literally hundreds of ex Mormon sites..type in ex lds or ex mormon

Geesh..some of the stuff on there makes VPW look like a saint !!

[Raf]

The 'big' differnce is..the Book of Mormon has been shown to be a crock of cr*p !

I'm still waiting for the part where we get to the difference.

[LG]

Mike, your answer to my question fits with other posters' characterizations of you. Don't bother with another response. In turn, I won't trouble you by addressing you again.

[dmiller]

YO- JOHN says LOVE LOVE LOVE!!!!!!!!!

Was that John the Apostle, or John Lennon?? :P

Edited October 3, 2005 by dmiller

[CM]

lol dmiller

i should have said JOHN JOHN JOHN JOHN

and love a lot more then 3 times

[dmiller]

;)

I hear you.

[templelady]

Check out the myriad of ex-Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints sites !

yahoo search brings up literally hundreds of ex Mormon sites..type in ex lds or ex mormon

Geesh..some of the stuff on there makes VPW look like a saint !!

\

I have checked them out--for many years before I decided to join

Allan dear, there are hundreds of anti Mormon sites because there are hundreds of thousands of LDS world wide. Therefore there is a higher percentage of the dissatisfied.

Besides numbers aren't what determine the rightness or wrongness of doctrine.

Christ had only 12 disciples

Yup there are bad people in the LDS church, adulterers, rapists, child molesters, killers, thieves, liars--every kind of person--but that is true of every other belief system on the face of the earth.

What I am discussing here isn't the belief system, the amount of people who adhere to it, or the number of people who fall short of it. I'm not discussing the doctrine per se...

What I am discussing is the foundation used by Mike, yourself and others to maintain that VPW and TWI etal is inherently correct and the rest of us are inherently wrong.

I am trying to get you all to see that the values, logic, feelings, emotions, and proofs that you bring to the table on your side are EXACTLY the same as the rest of us bring to our sides.

When all is said and done it comes down to the faith, and the witness of Christ in a persons life.

I have absoloutely no problem in stating my beliefs and why I believe it (I guess you all figured that out by now, Right??

)

I enjoy a good discussion and exchange of ideas. Most of us do or we wouldn't be here.

It's not the sharing of ideas that bothers me

It is the holier-than-thou, kick-them-in-the-face, sanctimonious superiority that you and MIke and others here exhibit toward the rest of us.

I am willing to grant right here and now you probably don't intend to be that way, or then again maybe you do, either way it is highly annoying--SO PLEEASE STOP with the attitude

that's all I'm saying, and IMO it's what everyone else is trying to say too

Edited October 4, 2005 by templelady