You wrote, attributing to me: "If not for Wierwille's writings, Jesus would not know as much as he does today."
No, that's not my position. It's the revelation from God, the Father of Jesus Christ, that Jesus Christ derives his knowledge. Since PFAL is revelation from the Father, Jesus respects it.
A similar (but not identical) situation came up in the Gospels which bring up the SEEMING paradox that David was the anointed leader, yet he called the Son his lord. I'm winging this from memory, so please fine tune me if I got some wrong. I'm sure someone will, but I got the idea right.
David was lower than Jesus, yet he received revelation from the Father that proved very necessary for Jesus. There's no paradox when you recognize that the revelation given to David was bigger than David and his position.
If Dr's PFAL writings weren't by revelation (to him, or to others with fine tuning and timing by revelation to Dr) then I'd be in the soup and all your charges would be applicable. It all comes down to that. Now, who are YOU to decide when, where, and to whom God Almighty can give His revelations? Are YOU the Father's lord?
I actually had some personal distaste for Dr at many times, and this was at it's peak in 1998. However, my search for the truth culminated in the recognition that the PFAL writings were bigger than Dr, so I changed my thinking.
I know you don't believe me that I had my beefs with Dr, but then again, you're neither my lord NOR my judge, so you can stuff your opinions.
Somehow, Mike, when you try to rebut what I say, you only prove it further.
Your god is a fake, your Jesus is a counterfeit, your idol was a predator of God's people, and your preciousssssss is an error-riddled work of dishonest plagiarism.
As for your opinion, I already have stuffed it. And flushed it. It's now where it belongs.
I've noticed over the years that many here think that I equate Dr receiving this abundance of revelations as some kind of reward for good behavior.
I do not.
Many denominations look at the "gift" of tongues as a reward for good behavior or being super spiritual.
It is not.
Just the opposite of being a reward after the fact, SIT is a means TO BECOME super spiritual.
Similarly with Dr, those revelations were not a reward for him being a goodie goodie. I remember the Rock of Ages '72 movie (plus I was there) where Dr thanked God on stage that God had showered out His blessings not on a bunch of goodie goodies, but on "downers and outers like us!"
Many of you may think that first I liked, loved, adored, and idolized Dr, and THEN I believed PFAL. NOT TRUE! I saw many, many grads going down that route in the 70's and I had my brakes on full to avoid that. Many of YOU people may have done that, so you think I am now doing it. I am not. It's just the opposite with me. I distanced myself from the man all the time he was alive, and only when he was 13 years cold in the grave did I get really excited about the written form of PFAL.
The reason God gave the job (that's the JOB, not the reward) of writing PFAL (and collecting for all you plagiarism freaks) to Dr is not because he earned it or deserved it, but because he had the natural ability, he had the willingness, he had the balls to defy tradition, he had the tenacity, and most of all because he BELIEVED it, he believe God's call have him do it.
Many, many times Dr said that his ministry was by grace, meaning he didn't earn it. How many of you all did not hear this or did not believe it?
He also said, plus put into print, plus chiseled in stone "I wish I were the man I know to be." He knew what kind of man he could have been from the revelations he received and wrote to us, yet he knew he fell far short of BEING that kind of a man himself.
I sometimes think that ONE of the reasons God chose Dr for this abundance of revelations is to show for all time the magnificence of God's grace and mercy.
Another reason is to stop the mouths of all fleshly thinkers, who look at the flesh and judge merit there. When all is said and done there'll be NO PRIDE possible for religious people (like many posters here) when they do see that they are being judged by THIS gospel that God deemed fit to place in PFAL. It's a little like Jesus being born in a stable to confound the royalty. It's a little like God choosing Saul, a Christian deprogrammer, to receive the Great Mystery revelation.
I Cor. 1:26-31 Â
"For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: Â But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; Â And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
"That no flesh should glory in his presence.
"But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord."
No, it won't just be Craig & Co. who are humbled by the appearance of the Son and what he has to say.
I've noticed over the years that many here think that I equate Dr receiving this abundance of revelations as some kind of reward for good behavior.
No,
we've said that when a man goes 180 degrees from conduct God requires,
he is disqualified.
I do not.
False Dilemma.
Many denominations look at the "gift" of tongues as a reward for good behavior or being super spiritual. It is not.
We didn't claim that, either.
Just the opposite of being a reward after the fact, SIT is a means TO BECOME super spiritual.
Similarly with Dr,
if the analogy is to work, the supposed revelations are the means for vpw TO BECOME super spiritual.
those revelations were not a reward for him being a goodie goodie.
If he were a "goodie goodie" (poor way to refer to "someone exercising godly conduct),
then he might get revelations. Choosing to be a "baddie baddie" disqualifies one from
speaking for God while sinning. This is not a difficult concept for most of the people at GSC.
Hophni and Phinehas died for trying that.
I remember the Rock of Ages '72 movie (plus I was there) where Dr thanked God on stage that God had showered out His blessings not on a bunch of goodie goodies, but on "downers and outers like us!"
vpw excusing vpw for vpw's poor conduct does not impress most of us.
Many of you may think that first I liked, loved, adored, and idolized Dr, and THEN I believed PFAL. NOT TRUE!
HOW you arrived at an idolatrous doctrine is really NOT the major issue when discussing an idolatrous
doctrine.
I saw many, many grads going down that route in the 70's and I had my brakes on full to avoid that. Many of YOU people may have done that, so you think I am now doing it. I am not. It's just the opposite with me. I distanced myself from the man all the time he was alive, and only when he was 13 years cold in the grave did I get really excited about the written form of PFAL.
Which doesn't excuse idolatry.
The reason God gave the job (that's the JOB, not the reward) of writing PFAL (and collecting for all you plagiarism freaks)
vpw claimed the job, God never REQUIRED such a thing.
to Dr is not because he earned it or deserved it, but because he had the natural ability, he had the willingness, he had the balls to defy tradition, he had the tenacity, and most of all because he BELIEVED it, he believe God's call have him do it.
Hundreds of men of God were alive at the time with those talents.
Most of them actually conducted themselves as God said to.
Many, many times Dr said that his ministry was by grace, meaning he didn't earn it.
We ALL agree he didn't EARN anything.
How many of you all did not hear this or did not believe it?
It's the ONE thing we agree on.
He also said, plus put into print, plus chiseled in stone "I wish I were the man I know to be." He knew what kind of man he could have been from the revelations he received and wrote to us, yet he knew he fell far short of BEING that kind of a man himself.
A parting comment along those lines is SO much easier than actually renovating one's behaviour.
God didn't say for the one that stole to regret at the end of his life that he didn't give up steal.
"Let him that stole steal NO MORE-rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing that is good,
that he may have to give to him that needeth."
I sometimes think that ONE of the reasons God chose Dr for this abundance of revelations is to show for all time the magnificence of God's grace and mercy.
God can show His mercy without endorsing rape, plagiarism, lies, deception, and catering to vices.
And, he DOES show His mercy like that.
Another reason is to stop the mouths of all fleshly thinkers, who look at the flesh and judge merit there.
So you're saying God endorsed a raping plagiaristic liar to teach people not to judge by the flesh.
David Koresh made a similar claim that allowed him to rape his women followers...
When all is said and done there'll be NO PRIDE possible for religious people (like many posters here)
Pride is not in religion, it's being thankful for what God already wrought.
when they do see that they are being judged by THIS gospel that God deemed fit to place in PFAL.
Most of us, if faced with a God who would endorse a raping plagiaristic liar, would reject Him.
We expect better of GOD ALMIGHTY.
Your God is not OUR God. Since your lord is not our Lord, this is little surprise.
It's a little like Jesus being born in a stable to confound the royalty. It's a little like God choosing Saul, a Christian deprogrammer, to receive the Great Mystery revelation.
So, God endorsing a raping plagiaristic liar is supposed to be similar to Jesus being born in a stable.
I Cor. 1:26-31
"For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
"That no flesh should glory in his presence.
"But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord."
No, it won't just be Craig & Co. who are humbled by the appearance of the Son and what he has to say.
.
I'd recommend re-reading that. (Or READING that.)
There's no pass for sinning there. God didn't choose the sinful and rapist to confound the innocent and
raped-that seems to be missing from your verse.
If Jesus Christ shows up endorsing pfal, I won't be humbled.
I'll be in trouble for throwing rocks at the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
So Mike, Seeing that you have admitted in another thread (The Word of God), that you are a "normal" person and not one of the "rare and special" people...how can you possibly trust your own experience of studying the writings of Mr Wierwille?
Perhaps God tranformed you into one of the "special and rare" people and you are just to modest to admit it?
...because otherwise I'm confused. Are you saying that YOU can tell the difference between the true God and satan?
You stated..."The reason God gave the job (that's the JOB, not the reward) of writing PFAL..."
Ok, hold it right there!...How do you know this? Afterall, you claim to be a "normal" person who cannot tell the difference between the true God and satan.
I think Raf had it right when he said "As for your opinion, I have already stuffed it. And flushed it. It's now where it belongs."
In other words Mike...Your opinion now resides, alongside of and (probably) mixed up with Raf's "waste material"...now isn't that "rare and special"?
A man who rapes girls, one who destroys lives with out compunction while simultaniously quoting scripture...one who shamelessly steals from those whom have been placed in his care......does NOT fall into the * rare or special* catagory.....
I personally would want nothing to DO with a God who would chose and support a man such as he....
On the other hand, the God of scriptures DOES warn us of gentleman who DO fit vpw`s description. They are described as wolves in sheep`s clothing, seeking whom they may devour...they are also described as false prophets....
These fellows LOOK like genuine Christians....close enough to fool us.....the only way to discern the difference According to galations is to examine the fruit in their lives.
The fruit in vp`s life soundly condemns him as a man of the flesh....pure and simple....
If Jesus returns with a pfal book in hand, I will know truly, that I am in HELL :(
Has anyone here ever wondered how the family of Uriah received the Psalms of David? I'm talking about those in Uriah's generation, and several generations afterwards.
I wonder how they were tempted to feel... ...no I don't. I just have to look at some posts here.
I wonder how any in Uriah's family were able to resist that temptation... hmmm ...no clues in the posts... ...so far.
Well Mike, I wasn`t aware that God begrudged us happiness, temporary or otherwise.....
The only indication I haave is that according to the scriptures...my life shows sign of God`s blessing upon it.
My husband and I have been blessed with a quiver PLUS full of happy children, our family enjoys physical health (omg what a blessing), and though not rich, our family prospers, our desires are filled.
We are deeply content.....
We are priveliged to be living our dream....not because we deserve it, not because we earned it by good works by any means....... we are humbly gratefull because EVERY single one of those things listed are indications that the bible says are God`s hand of blessing is upon us.
I think you are pretty creepy to spit on what God has seen fit to so generously bestow.
Then again, I have to wonder if maybe you aren`t simply jealous becaues you in your personal life lack in these things that are so intrinsically important....and so like a petulant child, you must out of pure spite, denigrate and make God`s blessings appear to be somehow unsavory.... undesirable
If you got out a map, and drew a circle around your house, how big a radius would that circle have to be before the circle contained 10,000 people who could claim the exact same level of blessings you just did?
If you live in a city, I'll bet the circle is pretty small.
How many of those 10,000 do yo think love God and put Him first in their lives? How many believe that Jesus Christ is physically alive, up from the dead, and soon to re-appear? How many? Try knocking on some doors if you want to be scientific about it. I did.
Sorry. But you have to accept the bad with the good..
or at least you WILL.
What a morass of pure evil, manipulation, hunger for POWER over others, abusive in habits and practices, Drambuie breathed rapist and alcoholic that all defined vic..
but he "loved the children".. ha.
He could shed a few tears.. alas, wasn't the man he knew to be.. and he KNEW. Can't lie to the man in the mirror forever..
I have put myself in the shoes of those who he raped, pillaged, and defamed.. and it is NOT COMFORTABLE.
You wrote: "So Mike, Seeing that you have admitted in another thread (The Word of God), that you are a "normal" person and not one of the "rare and special" people...how can you possibly trust your own experience of studying the writings of Mr Wierwille? __ Perhaps God tranformed you into one of the "special and rare" people and you are just to modest to admit it? __ ...because otherwise I'm confused. Are you saying that YOU can tell the difference between the true God and satan?"
I was wondering if anyone was going to ask me that question.
No, I'm not one of those special ones to get it directly. I got it first from reading with my 5-senses, and now am learning to see it directly by spirit. I'm simply in an early wave of those who see it in this normal manner and sequence.
Why were the shepherds some of the very few in that early wave to see Jesus in his infancy? Why weren't the chief priests, the religious leaders, the scholars, the leaders in that first wave? Why weren't there thousands of the middle class there to see him in his swaddling clothes?
I used to have these kinds of questions about that time, as well as the present. When I first got into the Word I was always wondering "Why me?" or more generally "Why US? Us rag-tag hippies don't deserve to see the light. Why aren't the majority of the people able to see that SIT is available to them?"
I gradually got my answers as I got into very heavy and systematic witnessing. Somehow my very first witnessing excursion at twig was mall witnessing. The twigleader didn't call it that, though. Praise God, he said "We're going to the mall to have some fun tonight." I hadn't even had the class yet, but I was paired with a wonderful woman who also had a positive attitude. We had a wonderful time, and from then on I witnessed to everything that moved and a few that didn't.
I saw first hand that the general population DIDN'T WANT IT! They genuinely had other priorities way above the things of God and it was obvious. With those who would mouth the words that they loved God and would attend to much religious activity, when I took close looks at their responses it was obvious that they were totally missing it on the first commandment (mentioned in the first 12 minutes of the film class) and that they were FAR from putting God first in their lives. Many would even mis-quote the greatest commandment as loving their neighbor as themselves.
They were loving the image of themselves as being spiritual and being loving to their neighbors, but they didn't love God. As Isaiah put it, they drew near to their god with their lips, but their hearts were far from the True God. They would approach the Bible to see how much they could get from it, not to see how much they could contribute to God's plan. As Allan put it the other day, they acted in phileo because it made them feel good about themselves.
I saw all this first hand in people I knew well and in people with whom I had a lot of witnessing contact... MANY people. They just didn't WANT it very much, much like Esau.
That was what I saw in ordinary people. In people of great intellect I saw that they had an even greater impediment: their ego. They wanted to derive the truth so that they could get credit for it. In addition to their lack of desire for the True God, they had so much pride that there was no way they'd accept hearing it from a low lifer, a "downer and outer" like me. They were far from being like a Naaman who listened and acted on the words of his humble maid, and then listened to and obeyed the humiliating action required by the man of God.
So, Groucho, which class of people do YOU fit in?
Isaiah 57:15 Â
"For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones."
Well, Mike, if you or Alan were to come up to "witness" to me, I'd tell you I'm not interested. You're both over the top, fake, and condescending. I live in a rather large city that's heavily populated and I know almost everyone on my block and nearly every one of them is a Christian and we always help each other out and, even those like me who - GASP! - don't go to a church all the time (some not at all) are more loving, kind and generous than many of the "religious" people you and Alan seem to promote.
Like it or not, people DO consider the messenger and in many cases the messenger is the turn off, not the message. Of course, in the case of you two, it would be the message AND the messenger. I know you believe in what you do and Alan also thinks he has a corner market on the truth and an obligation to attack everyone on here who doesn't believe like he does. It's for those very reasons that you two will never "win" anyone to Christ. Pity y'all won't see it.
How can a person tell the difference between those three kids of blessings?
None of your damn business, Mike! Why are you and Alan so hell bent on judging, classifying and labeling people????? I don't get it!!!
The FRUIT in Rascal's life shows me it's from the one true God. I don't see any fruit in your life Mike. I don't know you either, but I'd expect I would be hard pressed to find any.
Mike, I don't normally pay too much attention to your posts, but occasionally, when I'm stuck at my desk waiting for a phone call, I read threads I don't normally follow. Anyway, a question comes to mind.
What is it that you see in PFAL (all the writings) that you think is "gospel?" The whole collection is primarily exposition of a few parts of the Bible. In fact, most of the "Studies in Abundant Living" are just transcriptions of teaching sermons.
Wierwille never claimed that his writings were "God's Word" or gospel. He claimed that they were essentially either keys to understanding the Bible or expositions of portions of the Bible.
I am gratefull, I have been given so much, I am blissfully content.
I ask nor need nothing more.
Sfunny, since you ask..... most of my neighbors are of the same mind set. We live our lives as people of good moral integrety and character, seeking to do our best to lighten one anothers burden when the opportunity arises....each of us determined to make our little corner of the planet a brighter place.
I edited out my comments to rascal that you just responded to, because I was trying to avoid the way this board squishes back-to-back posts from the same person into one post. You might want to move your response to below this one where I have little choice bu to squish three posts together.
As for your latest post (yikes! this is getting complicated), here is my latest response:
With those who are over the top, I can over top them. With those who are condescending, I can see if they area able to take it as well as they dish it out. I much rather prefer civil discourse.
******
Mr. Hammeroni,
I'm much closer to BEING in their shoes than you know. Plus, I have put myself in their shoes, and I interact with them in a different way that with you others here. AND I do it in private.
******
and rascal,
What makes you so sure it was God who blessed you.
He makes His rain fall on the just and the unjust alike. It could have simply been your operation of principles that got you what you are happy with now, and the devil decided to not hassle you much.
Or, your blessings could even be a direct bribe or reward from the devil.
How can a person tell the difference between those three kids of blessings?
(((((((Brother speed))))))) somehow I feel that were I there..... your presence would make Iraq just a little bit less hellish....
You are a ray of hope shining in that darkness....thank you sir.
Bell, thank you.
Mike, you disparage that which God has seen fit to supply by.
You attempt to denegrate God`s goodness wrought when calling it a bribe from Satan.
It has nothing to DO with principles learned.... as I eshew those principles as lies and distractions from our true duty and responsibility in this life....ie *Love God and Love your neighbor*
The FRUIT in Rascal's life shows me it's from the one true God. I don't see any fruit in your life Mike. I don't know you either, but I'd expect I would be hard pressed to find any.
I've tried making this point myself Belle.. no fruit, no results..
Where are the RESULTS? Don't tell me what kind of results that I can get..
What in the H is it doing for YOU? Or more appropriately, what is it doing TO you?
I have to evaluate myself about things in this manner, all the time.. what about you?
You are not in a position to really examine the fruits in another person's life, only your own.
******
rascal,
You wrote: "Mike, you disparage that which God has seen fit to supply by."
Funny, I though the same of you. You spit on the revelations God gave to Dr and his team of editors and that they put into print.
******
Belle,
You wrote: "Why are you and Alan so hell bent on judging, classifying and labeling people????? I don't get it!!"
Well, I'll admit, Alan does seem to have a heavy hand, and I'd like to see the gentle side of him more. But don't you see the heavy hand of those who post in my face? Maybe you are blind to it because you engage in it yourself. You think you and others here have a good reason to be nasty, but you object when I respond in kind.
I'm interested in bringing a positive message here. I see a lot of judgment and condemnation thrown at me for my efforts. When some try to thwart it I sometimes fight back. Why don't you see the attacks against me?
I didn't label them. (I don't think?? It's been a heavy fight this morning)
I think I asked you how you can tell, among the three possibilities, which one fits you.
Those who think that gain is godliness are in for a rude awakening someday.
The death and destruction you've seen is from NOT paying attention t the written message of PFAL. Those who suffered (me included) did so from winging it on the verbal traditions the grew up.
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Mark 11:22,23: ------------ And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God. For verily I saith unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into
What The Hey
The law of believing has nothing to do with "mind power". It doesn't have anything to do with: "believing in the promises of God and His willingness to perform them" either, although for the Christia
Mike
Raf,
You wrote, attributing to me: "If not for Wierwille's writings, Jesus would not know as much as he does today."
No, that's not my position. It's the revelation from God, the Father of Jesus Christ, that Jesus Christ derives his knowledge. Since PFAL is revelation from the Father, Jesus respects it.
A similar (but not identical) situation came up in the Gospels which bring up the SEEMING paradox that David was the anointed leader, yet he called the Son his lord. I'm winging this from memory, so please fine tune me if I got some wrong. I'm sure someone will, but I got the idea right.
David was lower than Jesus, yet he received revelation from the Father that proved very necessary for Jesus. There's no paradox when you recognize that the revelation given to David was bigger than David and his position.
If Dr's PFAL writings weren't by revelation (to him, or to others with fine tuning and timing by revelation to Dr) then I'd be in the soup and all your charges would be applicable. It all comes down to that. Now, who are YOU to decide when, where, and to whom God Almighty can give His revelations? Are YOU the Father's lord?
I actually had some personal distaste for Dr at many times, and this was at it's peak in 1998. However, my search for the truth culminated in the recognition that the PFAL writings were bigger than Dr, so I changed my thinking.
I know you don't believe me that I had my beefs with Dr, but then again, you're neither my lord NOR my judge, so you can stuff your opinions.
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Raf
Somehow, Mike, when you try to rebut what I say, you only prove it further.
Your god is a fake, your Jesus is a counterfeit, your idol was a predator of God's people, and your preciousssssss is an error-riddled work of dishonest plagiarism.
As for your opinion, I already have stuffed it. And flushed it. It's now where it belongs.
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Mike
I've noticed over the years that many here think that I equate Dr receiving this abundance of revelations as some kind of reward for good behavior.
I do not.
Many denominations look at the "gift" of tongues as a reward for good behavior or being super spiritual.
It is not.
Just the opposite of being a reward after the fact, SIT is a means TO BECOME super spiritual.
Similarly with Dr, those revelations were not a reward for him being a goodie goodie. I remember the Rock of Ages '72 movie (plus I was there) where Dr thanked God on stage that God had showered out His blessings not on a bunch of goodie goodies, but on "downers and outers like us!"
Many of you may think that first I liked, loved, adored, and idolized Dr, and THEN I believed PFAL. NOT TRUE! I saw many, many grads going down that route in the 70's and I had my brakes on full to avoid that. Many of YOU people may have done that, so you think I am now doing it. I am not. It's just the opposite with me. I distanced myself from the man all the time he was alive, and only when he was 13 years cold in the grave did I get really excited about the written form of PFAL.
The reason God gave the job (that's the JOB, not the reward) of writing PFAL (and collecting for all you plagiarism freaks) to Dr is not because he earned it or deserved it, but because he had the natural ability, he had the willingness, he had the balls to defy tradition, he had the tenacity, and most of all because he BELIEVED it, he believe God's call have him do it.
Many, many times Dr said that his ministry was by grace, meaning he didn't earn it. How many of you all did not hear this or did not believe it?
He also said, plus put into print, plus chiseled in stone "I wish I were the man I know to be." He knew what kind of man he could have been from the revelations he received and wrote to us, yet he knew he fell far short of BEING that kind of a man himself.
I sometimes think that ONE of the reasons God chose Dr for this abundance of revelations is to show for all time the magnificence of God's grace and mercy.
Another reason is to stop the mouths of all fleshly thinkers, who look at the flesh and judge merit there. When all is said and done there'll be NO PRIDE possible for religious people (like many posters here) when they do see that they are being judged by THIS gospel that God deemed fit to place in PFAL. It's a little like Jesus being born in a stable to confound the royalty. It's a little like God choosing Saul, a Christian deprogrammer, to receive the Great Mystery revelation.
I Cor. 1:26-31 Â
"For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: Â But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; Â And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
"That no flesh should glory in his presence.
"But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord."
No, it won't just be Craig & Co. who are humbled by the appearance of the Son and what he has to say.
.
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WordWolf
No,
we've said that when a man goes 180 degrees from conduct God requires,
he is disqualified.
False Dilemma.
We didn't claim that, either.
if the analogy is to work, the supposed revelations are the means for vpw TO BECOME super spiritual.
If he were a "goodie goodie" (poor way to refer to "someone exercising godly conduct),
then he might get revelations. Choosing to be a "baddie baddie" disqualifies one from
speaking for God while sinning. This is not a difficult concept for most of the people at GSC.
Hophni and Phinehas died for trying that.
vpw excusing vpw for vpw's poor conduct does not impress most of us.
HOW you arrived at an idolatrous doctrine is really NOT the major issue when discussing an idolatrous
doctrine.
Which doesn't excuse idolatry.
vpw claimed the job, God never REQUIRED such a thing.
Hundreds of men of God were alive at the time with those talents.
Most of them actually conducted themselves as God said to.
We ALL agree he didn't EARN anything.
It's the ONE thing we agree on.
A parting comment along those lines is SO much easier than actually renovating one's behaviour.
God didn't say for the one that stole to regret at the end of his life that he didn't give up steal.
"Let him that stole steal NO MORE-rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing that is good,
that he may have to give to him that needeth."
God can show His mercy without endorsing rape, plagiarism, lies, deception, and catering to vices.
And, he DOES show His mercy like that.
So you're saying God endorsed a raping plagiaristic liar to teach people not to judge by the flesh.
David Koresh made a similar claim that allowed him to rape his women followers...
Pride is not in religion, it's being thankful for what God already wrought.
Most of us, if faced with a God who would endorse a raping plagiaristic liar, would reject Him.
We expect better of GOD ALMIGHTY.
Your God is not OUR God. Since your lord is not our Lord, this is little surprise.
So, God endorsing a raping plagiaristic liar is supposed to be similar to Jesus being born in a stable.
I'd recommend re-reading that. (Or READING that.)
There's no pass for sinning there. God didn't choose the sinful and rapist to confound the innocent and
raped-that seems to be missing from your verse.
If Jesus Christ shows up endorsing pfal, I won't be humbled.
I'll be in trouble for throwing rocks at the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
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GrouchoMarxJr
So Mike, Seeing that you have admitted in another thread (The Word of God), that you are a "normal" person and not one of the "rare and special" people...how can you possibly trust your own experience of studying the writings of Mr Wierwille?
Perhaps God tranformed you into one of the "special and rare" people and you are just to modest to admit it?
...because otherwise I'm confused. Are you saying that YOU can tell the difference between the true God and satan?
You stated..."The reason God gave the job (that's the JOB, not the reward) of writing PFAL..."
Ok, hold it right there!...How do you know this? Afterall, you claim to be a "normal" person who cannot tell the difference between the true God and satan.
I think Raf had it right when he said "As for your opinion, I have already stuffed it. And flushed it. It's now where it belongs."
In other words Mike...Your opinion now resides, alongside of and (probably) mixed up with Raf's "waste material"...now isn't that "rare and special"?
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rascal
A man who rapes girls, one who destroys lives with out compunction while simultaniously quoting scripture...one who shamelessly steals from those whom have been placed in his care......does NOT fall into the * rare or special* catagory.....
I personally would want nothing to DO with a God who would chose and support a man such as he....
On the other hand, the God of scriptures DOES warn us of gentleman who DO fit vpw`s description. They are described as wolves in sheep`s clothing, seeking whom they may devour...they are also described as false prophets....
These fellows LOOK like genuine Christians....close enough to fool us.....the only way to discern the difference According to galations is to examine the fruit in their lives.
The fruit in vp`s life soundly condemns him as a man of the flesh....pure and simple....
If Jesus returns with a pfal book in hand, I will know truly, that I am in HELL :(
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Mike
rascal,
What makes you think you aren't already there?
Some surface happiness, that's surely only temporary?
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Ham
I'll say it once again:
all this makes me want to nominate yet one more chosen individual to be reincarnated as a woman for the Mog's "service".. ptooie.
That would be "hell". Nothing like cuddling up to a Drambuie drenched, lecherous SOB..
Yuck.
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Brother Speed
Rascal is definitely not in h e double toothpicks!!
If she were, she'd be here with me. Because Iraq is HELL!!
and what in the world is Drambuie?
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Mike
Has anyone here ever wondered how the family of Uriah received the Psalms of David? I'm talking about those in Uriah's generation, and several generations afterwards.
I wonder how they were tempted to feel... ...no I don't. I just have to look at some posts here.
I wonder how any in Uriah's family were able to resist that temptation... hmmm ...no clues in the posts... ...so far.
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Ham
Bro. Speed, Drambuie was the mog's choice of drink..
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rascal
Well Mike, I wasn`t aware that God begrudged us happiness, temporary or otherwise.....
The only indication I haave is that according to the scriptures...my life shows sign of God`s blessing upon it.
My husband and I have been blessed with a quiver PLUS full of happy children, our family enjoys physical health (omg what a blessing), and though not rich, our family prospers, our desires are filled.
We are deeply content.....
We are priveliged to be living our dream....not because we deserve it, not because we earned it by good works by any means....... we are humbly gratefull because EVERY single one of those things listed are indications that the bible says are God`s hand of blessing is upon us.
I think you are pretty creepy to spit on what God has seen fit to so generously bestow.
Then again, I have to wonder if maybe you aren`t simply jealous becaues you in your personal life lack in these things that are so intrinsically important....and so like a petulant child, you must out of pure spite, denigrate and make God`s blessings appear to be somehow unsavory.... undesirable
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Mike
rascal,
If you got out a map, and drew a circle around your house, how big a radius would that circle have to be before the circle contained 10,000 people who could claim the exact same level of blessings you just did?
If you live in a city, I'll bet the circle is pretty small.
How many of those 10,000 do yo think love God and put Him first in their lives? How many believe that Jesus Christ is physically alive, up from the dead, and soon to re-appear? How many? Try knocking on some doors if you want to be scientific about it. I did.
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Ham
But really.. what did the "word" cost you..
if indeed it was the word..
Sorry. But you have to accept the bad with the good..
or at least you WILL.
What a morass of pure evil, manipulation, hunger for POWER over others, abusive in habits and practices, Drambuie breathed rapist and alcoholic that all defined vic..
but he "loved the children".. ha.
He could shed a few tears.. alas, wasn't the man he knew to be.. and he KNEW. Can't lie to the man in the mirror forever..
I have put myself in the shoes of those who he raped, pillaged, and defamed.. and it is NOT COMFORTABLE.
Someday, maybe you will..
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Mike
Groucho,
You wrote: "So Mike, Seeing that you have admitted in another thread (The Word of God), that you are a "normal" person and not one of the "rare and special" people...how can you possibly trust your own experience of studying the writings of Mr Wierwille? __ Perhaps God tranformed you into one of the "special and rare" people and you are just to modest to admit it? __ ...because otherwise I'm confused. Are you saying that YOU can tell the difference between the true God and satan?"
I was wondering if anyone was going to ask me that question.
No, I'm not one of those special ones to get it directly. I got it first from reading with my 5-senses, and now am learning to see it directly by spirit. I'm simply in an early wave of those who see it in this normal manner and sequence.
Why were the shepherds some of the very few in that early wave to see Jesus in his infancy? Why weren't the chief priests, the religious leaders, the scholars, the leaders in that first wave? Why weren't there thousands of the middle class there to see him in his swaddling clothes?
I used to have these kinds of questions about that time, as well as the present. When I first got into the Word I was always wondering "Why me?" or more generally "Why US? Us rag-tag hippies don't deserve to see the light. Why aren't the majority of the people able to see that SIT is available to them?"
I gradually got my answers as I got into very heavy and systematic witnessing. Somehow my very first witnessing excursion at twig was mall witnessing. The twigleader didn't call it that, though. Praise God, he said "We're going to the mall to have some fun tonight." I hadn't even had the class yet, but I was paired with a wonderful woman who also had a positive attitude. We had a wonderful time, and from then on I witnessed to everything that moved and a few that didn't.
I saw first hand that the general population DIDN'T WANT IT! They genuinely had other priorities way above the things of God and it was obvious. With those who would mouth the words that they loved God and would attend to much religious activity, when I took close looks at their responses it was obvious that they were totally missing it on the first commandment (mentioned in the first 12 minutes of the film class) and that they were FAR from putting God first in their lives. Many would even mis-quote the greatest commandment as loving their neighbor as themselves.
They were loving the image of themselves as being spiritual and being loving to their neighbors, but they didn't love God. As Isaiah put it, they drew near to their god with their lips, but their hearts were far from the True God. They would approach the Bible to see how much they could get from it, not to see how much they could contribute to God's plan. As Allan put it the other day, they acted in phileo because it made them feel good about themselves.
I saw all this first hand in people I knew well and in people with whom I had a lot of witnessing contact... MANY people. They just didn't WANT it very much, much like Esau.
That was what I saw in ordinary people. In people of great intellect I saw that they had an even greater impediment: their ego. They wanted to derive the truth so that they could get credit for it. In addition to their lack of desire for the True God, they had so much pride that there was no way they'd accept hearing it from a low lifer, a "downer and outer" like me. They were far from being like a Naaman who listened and acted on the words of his humble maid, and then listened to and obeyed the humiliating action required by the man of God.
So, Groucho, which class of people do YOU fit in?
Isaiah 57:15 Â
"For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones."
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Belle
Well, Mike, if you or Alan were to come up to "witness" to me, I'd tell you I'm not interested. You're both over the top, fake, and condescending. I live in a rather large city that's heavily populated and I know almost everyone on my block and nearly every one of them is a Christian and we always help each other out and, even those like me who - GASP! - don't go to a church all the time (some not at all) are more loving, kind and generous than many of the "religious" people you and Alan seem to promote.
Like it or not, people DO consider the messenger and in many cases the messenger is the turn off, not the message. Of course, in the case of you two, it would be the message AND the messenger. I know you believe in what you do and Alan also thinks he has a corner market on the truth and an obligation to attack everyone on here who doesn't believe like he does. It's for those very reasons that you two will never "win" anyone to Christ. Pity y'all won't see it.
None of your damn business, Mike! Why are you and Alan so hell bent on judging, classifying and labeling people????? I don't get it!!!
The FRUIT in Rascal's life shows me it's from the one true God. I don't see any fruit in your life Mike. I don't know you either, but I'd expect I would be hard pressed to find any.
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LG
Mike, I don't normally pay too much attention to your posts, but occasionally, when I'm stuck at my desk waiting for a phone call, I read threads I don't normally follow. Anyway, a question comes to mind.
What is it that you see in PFAL (all the writings) that you think is "gospel?" The whole collection is primarily exposition of a few parts of the Bible. In fact, most of the "Studies in Abundant Living" are just transcriptions of teaching sermons.
Wierwille never claimed that his writings were "God's Word" or gospel. He claimed that they were essentially either keys to understanding the Bible or expositions of portions of the Bible.
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rascal
Mike, you spit on what God has given.
I am gratefull, I have been given so much, I am blissfully content.
I ask nor need nothing more.
Sfunny, since you ask..... most of my neighbors are of the same mind set. We live our lives as people of good moral integrety and character, seeking to do our best to lighten one anothers burden when the opportunity arises....each of us determined to make our little corner of the planet a brighter place.
I think this is as God intended.
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Mike
Belle,
I edited out my comments to rascal that you just responded to, because I was trying to avoid the way this board squishes back-to-back posts from the same person into one post. You might want to move your response to below this one where I have little choice bu to squish three posts together.
As for your latest post (yikes! this is getting complicated), here is my latest response:
With those who are over the top, I can over top them. With those who are condescending, I can see if they area able to take it as well as they dish it out. I much rather prefer civil discourse.
******
Mr. Hammeroni,
I'm much closer to BEING in their shoes than you know. Plus, I have put myself in their shoes, and I interact with them in a different way that with you others here. AND I do it in private.
******
and rascal,
What makes you so sure it was God who blessed you.
He makes His rain fall on the just and the unjust alike. It could have simply been your operation of principles that got you what you are happy with now, and the devil decided to not hassle you much.
Or, your blessings could even be a direct bribe or reward from the devil.
How can a person tell the difference between those three kids of blessings?
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rascal
(((((((Brother speed))))))) somehow I feel that were I there..... your presence would make Iraq just a little bit less hellish....
You are a ray of hope shining in that darkness....thank you sir.
Bell, thank you.
Mike, you disparage that which God has seen fit to supply by.
You attempt to denegrate God`s goodness wrought when calling it a bribe from Satan.
It has nothing to DO with principles learned.... as I eshew those principles as lies and distractions from our true duty and responsibility in this life....ie *Love God and Love your neighbor*
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Ham
I've tried making this point myself Belle.. no fruit, no results..
Where are the RESULTS? Don't tell me what kind of results that I can get..
What in the H is it doing for YOU? Or more appropriately, what is it doing TO you?
I have to evaluate myself about things in this manner, all the time.. what about you?
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Mike
Mr Ham,
You are not in a position to really examine the fruits in another person's life, only your own.
******
rascal,
You wrote: "Mike, you disparage that which God has seen fit to supply by."
Funny, I though the same of you. You spit on the revelations God gave to Dr and his team of editors and that they put into print.
******
Belle,
You wrote: "Why are you and Alan so hell bent on judging, classifying and labeling people????? I don't get it!!"
Well, I'll admit, Alan does seem to have a heavy hand, and I'd like to see the gentle side of him more. But don't you see the heavy hand of those who post in my face? Maybe you are blind to it because you engage in it yourself. You think you and others here have a good reason to be nasty, but you object when I respond in kind.
I'm interested in bringing a positive message here. I see a lot of judgment and condemnation thrown at me for my efforts. When some try to thwart it I sometimes fight back. Why don't you see the attacks against me?
.
.
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rascal
Uhuh, Mike, dodge ...point a finger and attempt to misdirect........ a manuver worthey of my 5 yr old
You cannot negate my gratitude and thankfullness for the blessings God sees fit to bestow by mislabeling them as bribes.
.
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Mike
rascal,
I didn't label them. (I don't think?? It's been a heavy fight this morning)
I think I asked you how you can tell, among the three possibilities, which one fits you.
Those who think that gain is godliness are in for a rude awakening someday.
The death and destruction you've seen is from NOT paying attention t the written message of PFAL. Those who suffered (me included) did so from winging it on the verbal traditions the grew up.
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