VPW's Source for the Law of Believing

[markomalley]

??!?!?? :huh: ???!?!? :huh:

Mo,

Does he know something that we don't????? ;) ;) :wacko:

Or maybe he got confused which thread he was on LOL

[GarthP2000]

VP musta told him. ... from beyond the grave ... by PFAL Approved revelation, doncha know. ;)

[Raf]

Not that there's anything wrong with that...

[Raf]

I see templelady posted one of Mike's rants about how woe is he because he keeps getting challenged, and wondering how long it will take for me or Belle to hit unignore.

Hey, I reserve the right to read people quoting you, dude.

Let me say that there is no temptation whatsoever to hit unignore, so you'll be waiting a long, long time for that.

Let me also say that you've never adequately dealt with any criticism or critique with anything other than lies, evasions, dodgings, distractions...

[Mike]

This is TOO wierd.

Raf is taunting me from underneath temple lady's skirt and I can't get back at him!

I need a drink. :wacko:

Edited October 5, 2005 by Mike

[dmiller]

But God's ultimate plan is to have GREAT fellowship with us and that is being able to commune spiritually, to communicate spiritually.

His ultimate plan? It was His original plan and went by the name Garden of Eden

[GrouchoMarxJr]

Not that there's anything wrong with that...

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

That may be the funniest one sentence post in the history of GreaseSpot!

[Mike]

dmiller,

Remember John 1:1 that says the Word (Christ) was with Him in the beginning, in His foreknowledge.

God foreknew that the immediate implementation of His plan for spiritual fellowship in the Garden wouldn't work because of man's disobedience, but that His ultimate plan in Christ Jesus WOULD WORK because of his perfect obedience.

Edited October 5, 2005 by Mike

[What The Hey]

Mark 11:22,23:

------------

And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.

For verily I saith unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.

-------------

Here is something the 'biblical researchers' (are there any left?) should reconsider. What is it that is being emphasized in the above verse, is it believing or is it speaking? The way I read it, believing is only mentioned once in that verse but speaking is mentioned three times. So according to God's Word, which would you say is greater - someone doing the believing, or someone doing the speaking?

I came to the conclusion the reason the law of believing does not work for some (the reason there is no law of believing for them) is because that is what they say about it. They say it often and have said it a lot. Therefore they will receive whatever they presently have to say about it, and true to form they also have whatsoever they have said.

I recall the emphasis of the teaching in TWI was mostly on the believer having to 'believe' for something to get results, but not much (if anything) was it ever shown or taught to the belever the emphasis is not on what one believes - positive or negative, but rather on what they confess - what they have to say about it.

There is the "SOURCE" for the law of believing. YOU will have whatsoever you say. But then I imagine, someone who was probably above you in TWI had something entirely different they wanted to say about it too - didn't they?

[templelady]

Okay,

It is clear Now

EVERYBODY knows something I don't know about me!!

I mean, you think I would have noticed I had a wife

I should have surely noticed RAf lurking in my closet under my skirt

BUT No, NOt me

I was too busy being heterosexual B)

[Mike]

templelady,

It occurred to me that I forgot to mention that in the "other" forum that may come to pass by the grace of Pawtucket I'd rather not have any authority to exclude ruffians or to police it in any way. Maybe just having a friendly border would be best? I'd like to come into other forums and post too. I've refrained from bothering Paw about it so soon from the move, but if you are in contact with him already I wanted to include these thoughts

As for your stated dilemmas, maybe you accidently have the "ignore" feature turned on for Raf and/or for YOURSELF.

The minute I saw the "ignore" feature in MY OWN profile I froze!

"Gosh" I wondered. "What would happen if I licked it?"

******

What the Hay,

You are right about the prominence of speaking in those verses. We were taught about positive confession in the books, but in the evolving TVTs (Twi Verbal Traditions) it got lost. We were ALSO taught that believing implies ACTION, and speaking is a highly likely action in many cases, but even that got less and less explicit in the TVTs. In the film class Dr teaches about how Jesus SPOKE to the fig tree, and didn't beat around the bush. I don't know if that made it into WAP class or not.

Edited October 5, 2005 by Mike

[TheEvan]

Pulled from its context, the idea that you'll have whatever you say (or "confess", if you like) is so demonstrably wrong I don't think I need to comment.

Just a cursory reading of people's favorite "law of believing" sections, in their context. reveals that it's not about the law, what you say, or even what you believe. The common essential element is the object of faith, not the faith itself or the "operation" of it. Removing faith from its object turns it into lordless mental gymnastics.

[Oakspear]

Hi, my name is Tom, and I'm a PFAL rejector

[rascal]

Temple Lady ...now THAT is an excellent idea.....I think I will ask mark (my spouse) if *I* can get a wife TOO!!!!!

I`d love to have someone here to wash laundry, cook dinner, do dishes, yard work. sweep and mop...do the windows ... all at no charge!!!

I don`t know why I never thought of it before myself :lol:

So Raf is in your skirts??? sounds like fun ....but with raf under your skirts and a wife ...isn`t your closet kindda getting crowded?

WIll you be coming out of the closet soon? :)

Edited October 5, 2005 by rascal

[Raf]

WTH:

The reason believing works is that God is faithful.

The reason the "law of" believing doesn't work is not what people say about it, but its lack of existence in the first place.

Evan put it best: it's what and whom we believe that makes it work.

Confidence, enthusiasm, determination, perseverance: all are admirable qualities, and they will get you far. But they are not "believing."

Edited October 5, 2005 by Raf

[Belle]

WTH said:

There is the "SOURCE" for the law of believing. YOU will have whatsoever you say. But then I imagine, someone who was probably above you in TWI had something entirely different they wanted to say about it too - didn't they?

Do you, then, see this "law of believing" work every time in your life? Can it be scientifically documented that it works according to this equation? I'm really curious because I really and truly believed for, and confessed out loud to others, things that never came to pass. I've also confessed out loud to people things that I just KNEW were never going to come to pass and they did.

*shrug*

I think there is no law of believing and I think that we can ASK God for things and sometimes we get them and sometimes we don't. I think we won't always know "why" and that sometimes we'll just have to wait till we can ask the man himself.

There's a country song I like. It says, "sometimes God's greatest gifts are unanswered prayers."

[Raf]

I specifically told people I did not expect to get the promotion I eventually got.

If believing were a law governed by how you speak, it would not matter whether I believed it was a law or not.

I should not have gotten that job. But I did. Praise God.

[templelady]

It has been proven that people with a positive, I'm going to to do it attitude often succeed where others fail.

They often recover from surgery, often survive bad situations, often beat seemingly unbeatable odds.

Positive outlook often does create chemical changes in our bodies, it often does keep us going when others would quit.

That is not the same as a "law of Believing"

Positive outlook can get you far, but it isn's an iron clad promise.

[Belle]

True, Mo.

Candace Pert wrote a book called "The Molecules of Emotion"

I just loooked up her website to tell you her awesome credentials and she's got some new stuff out now that looks really interesting. My therapist loaned me her book I mentioned above and it really cleared up a lot of things for me. The first part is dry, but she is a scientist and had to lay a scientific foundation for her discoveries and results.

Her website is at: Candace Pert

If you haven't heard of her, I think you would really enjoy her stuff.

BTW, could you line up a wife for me, too? My floors need to be mopped and the dishes are piling up in the sink. ;)

[Mike]

I agree with TheEvan and Raf about this quote from Raf:

"Evan put it best: it's what and whom we believe that makes it work."

***

In my response to WTH there was also agreement with Evan's comments on context where I posted "in those verses." I was going to bold font that phrase but forgot.

We were taught that we need to see ALL the verses on a particular topic to see the whole picture, not just "those verses."

***

The real key to the power of believing resides in God and His word. Our mental operation of believing is like simply turning on a faucet. The water supply, it's pressure, and it's purity do NOT come from the operation of turning the faucet.

For me to take credit for the abundance of water, it's pressure, and it's purity simply because I turned the faucet is stupid... yet that's what a lot of us did... regarding the power of believing... in the TVTs we built and swallowed.

***

When JAL blew into town in 1988 with the stunning news that we were taught wrongly he used similar ways of explaining what I just did.

He accurately pointed out that we had forgotten that it was THE WORD that we had to believe, not just our desire for any old thing like many of us were doing by then.

He accurately pointed out that we were acting pretty stupid (like my example above) by failing to give the credit for the power to God and we were getting pretty big headed about it, even to the point of drifting into witchcraft.

But THEN he laid the blame on VPW and PFAL. I tended to agree with him at that time, but something nagged at the back of my mind. I kind of remembered Dr teaching it rightly long ago in the film class.

I went back to the bootleg copy of the film class I had found were proliferating in great abundance back then and found at least ten places where Dr taught it totally accurate, both on WHAT we had to believe and WHO was to get the credit. This was the first time I got an inkling that there was a TVT, a Twi Verbal Tradition that we had been immersed in for years that had drifted far from what was actually in PFAL. It took ten years for this observation to jell, but I could see right away that SOMETHING was wrong.

The next year when JAL returned I gave him my discoveries, documenting the segment number and how many minutes into the segment Dr had taught it right. He totally ignored it. That helped me to see that the top leadership had drifted even farther from God's heart than we peons had.

For the next ten years I saw one head honcho after another fall from my respect as their extreme ignorance and arrogance slipped out while I interrogated them. By the time I was shown Dr's Last/Lost teaching in 1998 I knew instantly that it was one last desperate attempt he made to get his top leadership to see that they were far from what he had taught them.

.

Edited October 5, 2005 by Mike

[Raf]

Oh please!

(Just kidding. Ignore feature is on. :) )

[dmiller]

Evan put it best: it's what and whom we believe that makes it work.

I agree. I've said it before here on GSC, and I guess it's worth repeating:

We don't believe in Our Ability To Believe;

We believe in God's promises, And His Ability To Do.

Docvic never did teach that little tidbit of info, although it is found many times in the scripture.

David

[Mike]

dmiller,

You wrote: "Docvic never did teach that little tidbit of info, although it is found many times in the scripture."

Oh PLEEEEEASE!

Do you want to keep that sentence up?

Do you know how I could tear that to shreds?

Does my memory serve correctly that you are a newspaper reporter (or is that def59?)?

Even if you are not, is this a responsible thing to say: "...never did teach..."?

Are we to suppose that you went through all the tapes, all the books, all the magazine articles before you wrote that?

Or did you simply pull it out of your butt because you knew most critics of Dr would think it smelled like a rose?

Is you memory THAT good that you could say "never" ?

If I were to show you oooodles of places where Dr DID most certainly teach that "little tidbit of info" would you repent of your attitudes and start re-examining OTHER inclinations of yours that are loosely based on faulty memory. Or would you act just like JAL did when I brought to his face ten instances of where he was dead wrong and just shrug it off? (please read my previous post here)

If you are a newspaper man, do you think a responsible editor would keep you on the job if you wrote like that for a paper that wants to have a reputation for unbiased reporting?

I'll delete this post if you delete your seriously erronious sentence. Otherwise I MAY spend the time to find the ten proofs that you have some serious memory and integrity problems.

Edited October 6, 2005 by Mike

[Thomas Loy Bumgarner]

Mike, you as well as Allan and Oldies/Phil Spector(shouldn't use your real name when posting if using an alias) are like a broken record/scratched CD. If Wierwille had footnoted/endnoted and provided a bibliography on PFAL, RTHST, ADAN like he did for JCNG, JCOP, and JCOPS, we would not be having this discussion. Check out my post on Alpha and similar classes now being offered by mainline denominations and compare them to PFAL and WAP. And don't sulk and act like spoiled 2 year olds. You are suppose to be Adults and mature, not whiny brats not wanting to share your toys. Sorry if that hurts, but its tough love.

[Mike]

No Thomas, a broken record has the same lines repeating over and over and NOTHING else. When I see repeated lies I repeatedly want (and sometimes do) face up to them. Jesus repeatedly obeyed his Father's will, so wold you call HIM a broken record. And don't give me the "You're not Jesus, Mike" usual line of baloney.

I have VOLUMES I've already posted on how stupid the plagiarism charges are in light of the MANY, MANY admissions Dr gave us that he collected from many sources.

He gave names, and he even had some of their material in the Way Bookstore. He simply didn't use footnotes, and I'm GLAD he didn't clutter God's Word with them. God gets the credit for the written PFAL, not Dr and not the men who helped him with blocks of text at times.

For you to insist on scholarly formalities in the MANNER he cited his sources when he was dealing with a FAMILY setting (albeit very large in later years) is ludicrous. The reason we have this thread here is because for almost 20 years people who want to discredit the GOOD work Dr did have been beating a frenzied drum to trump up false charges of plagiarism. If you want to get sucked into that frenzy go ahead. I will resist it at every turn, regardless of your name calling. I've been called MUCH worse here, so give up.

Edited October 6, 2005 by Mike