I just read all 5 pages of this thread consecutively. WOW what a cluster.
VP ripped off C Welsh who ripped off EW who ripped off Lightfoot.
Billy Bright ripped off B Graham.
VP was a despicable human being I didn't know the others.
Someone posted "The most important Biblical work going on in Great Britain in the second half of the 19th century was the revision of the King James Version...They consulted with a committee in the United States, as well......."
What a crock!!!!
If these modern day preachers are quoting each other so what who cares.
It they plagiarize each other let them sue each other, again who cares.
One reason they may not reference anyone else is that when they do quotes like this one are written in reviews. "Essek William Kenyon, whose life and ministry were enormously impacted by such cults as Science of Mind, the Unity School of Christianity, Christian Science, and New Thought metaphysics,23 is the true father of the modern-day Faith movement. Many of the phrases popularized by present-day prosperity preachers, such as "What I confess, I possess..."
My life and ministry was enormously impacted by Fred Flintstone and I have said Yaba daba do many times.
Another quote from one of these posts in this thread ""George M. Lamsa, who has close theological ties with psychic and gnostic groups, taught Syriac (Estrangelo Aramaic) at the 1962 summer school."
So let me write a quote so that people who have never met or extensive read someone's work can know about them.
"John who has been seen many times in the company of girls under the age of 7 was dismissed by the school he was a janitor at for improper behavior."
Now the truth about John: He is the father of 4 girls under 7 years old and because the school district didn't replace a faulty valve on a boiler he was fired because it blew and scared a lot of kids and their parents complained.
But what does one think when they read about John, yes go ahead say it he is a pervert. You see words are very powerful and some not all of the indictments made in this thread are well harsh.
One says stole another said copies and then they argue about not saying stole. Jeez what is that.
Our Lord was not accepted by the main stream religious head honchos so why do some post that that is a big deal. As if only if your accepted by the academia of today are you worthy to preach the Word of God.
To the person who said maybe we worshiped the Bible, does it not contain the Word of God? Have you unlearned everything even the truth?
So to the original poster of this thread who wrote,"im too young to recall names,
but didn't vpw go to some strange people for information, or study..
didn't he invite a "seed" people to visit with the corpse?
im just curious.
do any of you know of any strange or unusual people that vpw went to for learning purposes?"
Yes he did and every time you log on to GS you go to strange and unusual people (myself included) to learn and to fellowship.
So to the original poster of this thread who wrote,"im too young to recall names,
but didn't vpw go to some strange people for information, or study..
didn't he invite a "seed" people to visit with the corpse?
im just curious.
do any of you know of any strange or unusual people that vpw went to for learning purposes?"
Yes he did and every time you log on to GS you go to strange and unusual people (myself included) to learn and to fellowship.
when i said strange... I meant strange for VPW and TWI. I wasn't talking about bullinger or other preachers. I just heard stories that VPW would bring people that he thought were "evil" or "seed" or "wrong" and use them as teaching points.
It was all in the context of what TWI and VPW would have considered "strange".
I trow not.
He taught it from Bullinger.
It was not an original design, it was Bullingers design.
VP thought Bullinger was a tremendous scholar, and taught lots of his stuff.
I think 4 crucified was the biggest waste of time in my life. Even video games were a better use of my time. At least they were fun.
When I took the PFAL class, three areas of study that were stressed extensively were:
!.) figures of speech
2.) the seven administrations
3.) the "great mystery" revealed in Ephesians.
All three (and others as well ) can be found in Bullingers' writings. Yet, when I heard VPW teach them, he most definately implied that the origins of these ideas were unique to him(VPW) and made no attempt to convince anyone otherwise. It was presented by the local leadership as some sort of miraculous coincident that Bullinger too had arrived at the four crucified conclusion(Which for those inclined to do some legwork, has been academically discredited right here on GSC.) Even that in itself would nullify the claim that no one else had seen these things since the first century. When I became a class instructor, one thing we were told to specifically do after the session on "four crucified" was to instruct the students to NOT repeat this teaching to outsiders. It may have even been in the instructors syllabus(I don't recall.) The students were told that if outsiders got wind of this and wanted to know more they were to sign them up for "the class" and let VPW present it.Pleasant memories of times spent in The Way have absolutely no bearing on the fact that these teachings were not acceptably credited nor were they uniquely shown to VPW as they had not been shown for millenia.
In summary, VPW intentionally failed to give proper credit for others' work and the claim that no one had seen these things since the first century was an out and out falsehood. (Yes, we had some good times and yes, we learned some lessons that were beneficial )
I only added that last part about good times and beneficial lessons so that if someone were so inclined they could cut and paste it out of context.
It was presented by the local leadership as some sort of miraculous coincident that Bullinger too had arrived at the four crucified conclusion... ...the fact that these teachings were not acceptably credited nor were they uniquely shown to VPW as they had not been shown for millenia.
...In summary, VPW intentionally failed to give proper credit for others' work and the claim that no one had seen these things since the first century was an out and out falsehood. (Yes, we had some good times and yes, we learned some lessons that were beneficial )
This reminds me of somthing...
I remember people saying that Bullinger MUST have come to the conclusion that the trinity didn't exist. This was based upon his Compaion Bible and the fact that TWI used it so much, and EW was 'right on' in so many other areas (like the 4 crucified).
that was an odd assumption... putting words into EW's mouth or was it true... ? maybe this could be a thread..
and as an aside.....who really cares how many were crucified?? as long as we know that
our saviour was for us that is what counts 3 4 5 10? who cares. it was our lord that counts
The importance of it is that VPW was trying to show how HE was right and that EVERYBODY ELSE was wrong.
And if VPW correctly showed how everybody else was wrong in this case, then his students would be more likely to be accepting of his conclusions, elsewhere, that contradicted Christianity. After all, we all saw the picture of the 4 crucified with Christ, didn't we? Those eeeeeevvvviiiiilllll Catholics knew it all along, but they were suppressing it from their people. I wonder what other truths they were suppressing from their people! (/sarcasm)
See, if he could show you how he was right with this and everybody else was wrong (on a relatively minor thing), then on more important doctrines, such as baptism, the Godhead, etc., it would require less rigor for him to get folks to believe him. And thus continue with his indoctrination.
I remember people saying that Bullinger MUST have come to the conclusion that the trinity didn't exist. This was based upon his Compaion Bible and the fact that TWI used it so much, and EW was 'right on' in so many other areas (like the 4 crucified).
that was an odd assumption... putting words into EW's mouth or was it true... ? maybe this could be a thread..
The way my foggy brain remembers is VP surmising that if EW had lived another x years, he'd a figured out the Trinity was bogus.
!
Did you catch the implication?
That VP's "special knowledge" of the Godhead was deeper and beyond Bullinger's accumulated Bible knowledge.
That's not just a gutsy (and unprovable) claim, it strikes me as another calculated "listen to me keeeds, Ah gawt the deeeepest knowledge of all" designed to set up exclusivity and dependence.
I doubt if I would list Bullinger or Pillai on the fringe. I respect them both, though I have some differences with Bullinger. But I still like them both. Hardly fringe teachings.
The Law of Believing thing is debatable, I question tithing as a principle though most churches including my own teach it.
I think those that are on the fringe now are those who must separate ways from those of us who do not necessarily believe all that Wierwille taught.
Well, might as well say that the "Four Crucified Theory" along with the "Six Denials of Peter" and the original sin being masturbation are all debated in my book, mentioned on another thread. It is being updated as I speak and when updates are complete, can get it from Amazon.com. I even pretty much say the Eve lesbian theory is not credible and give the origin for that.
A lot of stuff is being debated in the book. It is advised not to buy the book yet because editing errors got through the first time around, so I'll have to announce when the book is ready. While it can be bought now, I feel that it is not complete. There are two major updates in it.
The book is titled "The Genesis Pursuit: The Lost History of Jesus Christ" and does take on most of these issues. I'll announce it on a special thread later when it is done. It is a big read. Over 560 pages but that includes scriptural and subject indexes, as well as notes and references. (My publisher does not do footnotes so it was harder to have readers see them right on the page. They are superscripted numerically and the reader goes to the back to find sources and information on some topics.)
I'll explain details on this site later. I have pretty much already been banned from one ex-Way fellowship because of it. I don't care anymore.
I have your book on my amazon wishlist... I could only buy one book for christmas so it was "enough about you, let's talk about me"... had to get that, it's a guidebook for dealing with narcissists and I need a lot of healing in that category. I'm looking forward to reading your book because I'm moving beyond the wholesale distrust I have of anything "christian" and feeling ready to compare spiritual things with spiritual... and figure out what, if any, of twi doctrines line up with what the bible actually says, or if there's even enough scripture to even form an opinion on some of what twi called biblical doctrine... I have a feeling that a lot of what they said the "Word" says will actually crumble completely to the point of "no doctrine available" and I'll throw it in my "hold it in abatement" drawer (one of the only useful things I ever learned in twi, btw.)
Having been out of twi for nearly 20 years now, I would estimate that at least half (probably more) of what Wierwille taught was wrong.
The things he missed...he missed big.
Some interesting observations in this thread...especially concerning huckster Vic's M.O. for indoctrinating folks...ya gotta admit, he WAS a good con man...
...even as so many of his proteges follow in his footsteps...even to this day.
I am updating the book, anyway. Don't buy it yet. I'll post it here when it is ready again. The book criticizes Wierwille's conclusions on many docrinal issues. I try not to blast anyone personally or even TWI. Just debate the doctrine. The doctrine is not debated without giving alternatives. The book is actually aimed at building belief in Christ again. But for those who want information on those issues, this is the book. I noticed that one person has found a lot of information on the Four Crucified theory which also was contained in my book. (Not that he got it from my book, it is just that anyone here, with enough interest could do the same thing, as this person did.)
Found on a "language log" and I thought you might enjoy it if you thought that vp was the one who originated, "Don't put a period where God has put a comma."
This being Language Log, of course we're going to check the numbers. And there are 440,000 Google hits for {period God comma}, mostly indeed variants of this expression:
Don't put a period where God has put a comma.
Never place a period where God has placed a comma.
If we stop there we are placing a period where God has placed a comma.
Never put a period, where God has put a comma.
Don't put a period where God puts a comma.
Don't put a period where God put a comma.
Don't place a period where God intended a comma.
God’s period is what allows our lives to have commas.
...we must be alert to the caution Gracie Allen left us not to put periods where God has put commas.
Today’s Bible stories are both about God putting a commas where humans might be tempted to put periods
Ian Lynch "on behalf of the Commission on Communication, Massachusetts Conference, United Church of Christ" has developed a version of this phrase into a "series of Lenten litanies", under the title "Ellipses and Commas; A Punctuated Lenten Journey":
The comma as a symbol of this campaign comes from the quote by Gracie Allen, “Never place a period where God has placed a comma.” The concept of this series is to slowly build this complete sentence through the seven Sundays of Lent and Easter.
And this sermon by Larry Reimer, dated May 7, 2006, reviews the whole story:
About five years ago our national denomination, the United Church of Christ, was looking for a phrase to define itself. They found the perfect words from Gracie Allen, the wife and comic partner of comedian George Burns.
Gracie Allen was a brilliant and perceptive woman. She left a message in her papers to be discovered by her husband after her death that has become the motto for the United Church of Christ: “Never put a period where God has placed a comma.”
Gracie was encouraging George to remember that life had many chapters. George was 68 when Gracie died. Rather than place a period after his career, Burns went on to star in a number of movies, including playing God, twice. He even headlined at Gator Growl in the 1970’s. He died at age 100, having lived the life of the comma."
VP had only 2 qualifications for strange people he used and/or plagiarized:
1. They had to use initials, not whole names, like VP did... KC (Pillai), EW (Bullinger), EW (Kenyon), JE (Stiles), etc
2. They had to teach / claim something that was odd, out of the mainstream, etc- something VP could use to claim that he knew and taught the word as it had not been known since the first century (except to him, "The Teacher.")
VP fit what the Apostle Paul warned about: "For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great numbwer of teachers to say what their itcbing ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. (2 Timothy 4:3-4)
VP's ears itched his whole life. If he had lived another 20 years, I have no doubt that TWI's teachings would have gotten more and more strange, much like Mormons did during founder Joe Smith's lifetime (they added- God used to be a man, you can become a god over your own world and have thousands of wives to bear children for your own planet, polygamy, the founder having sex with followers' wives is God's will, etc).
I remember a tape of Cummins teaching on athletes of the spirit. You can hear VP cheer approval in the background- he was getting all psyched by his itching ears getting scratched again. And more people bought the myth just because "The Teacher," "Doctor," was selling it.
PS: another strange source was Albert Cliffe, who the PFAL bio credits as a source of VP's teaching. Cliffe was a medium (spiritist, or to use a more contemporary term- channeler), which as you know was a real no-no in TWI.
PS: another strange source was Albert Cliffe, who the PFAL bio credits as a source of VP's teaching. Cliffe was a medium (spiritist, or to use a more contemporary term- channeler), which as you know was a real no-no in TWI.
Cool post.
Albert cliffe was credited for PFAL? wierd... do you have a complete list of credits for PFAL? That would be interesting.
PS: another strange source was Albert Cliffe, who the PFAL bio credits as a source of VP's teaching. Cliffe was a medium (spiritist, or to use a more contemporary term- channeler), which as you know was a real no-no in TWI.
Has anyone done any research regarding Albert Cliffe? Is the reference there because of examples being used from Cliiffe illustrating dark practices or did vpee use him for a christian doctrine source?
didn't he invite a "seed" people to visit with the corpse?
That would have supposedly been (as far as "seed" is concerned) Arthur Ford. Probably where the vicster learned some "showmanship" when channeling a reading.. ahem, operating revelation or something..
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griffp
I just read all 5 pages of this thread consecutively. WOW what a cluster.
VP ripped off C Welsh who ripped off EW who ripped off Lightfoot.
Billy Bright ripped off B Graham.
VP was a despicable human being I didn't know the others.
Someone posted "The most important Biblical work going on in Great Britain in the second half of the 19th century was the revision of the King James Version...They consulted with a committee in the United States, as well......."
What a crock!!!!
If these modern day preachers are quoting each other so what who cares.
It they plagiarize each other let them sue each other, again who cares.
One reason they may not reference anyone else is that when they do quotes like this one are written in reviews. "Essek William Kenyon, whose life and ministry were enormously impacted by such cults as Science of Mind, the Unity School of Christianity, Christian Science, and New Thought metaphysics,23 is the true father of the modern-day Faith movement. Many of the phrases popularized by present-day prosperity preachers, such as "What I confess, I possess..."
My life and ministry was enormously impacted by Fred Flintstone and I have said Yaba daba do many times.
Another quote from one of these posts in this thread ""George M. Lamsa, who has close theological ties with psychic and gnostic groups, taught Syriac (Estrangelo Aramaic) at the 1962 summer school."
So let me write a quote so that people who have never met or extensive read someone's work can know about them.
"John who has been seen many times in the company of girls under the age of 7 was dismissed by the school he was a janitor at for improper behavior."
Now the truth about John: He is the father of 4 girls under 7 years old and because the school district didn't replace a faulty valve on a boiler he was fired because it blew and scared a lot of kids and their parents complained.
But what does one think when they read about John, yes go ahead say it he is a pervert. You see words are very powerful and some not all of the indictments made in this thread are well harsh.
One says stole another said copies and then they argue about not saying stole. Jeez what is that.
Our Lord was not accepted by the main stream religious head honchos so why do some post that that is a big deal. As if only if your accepted by the academia of today are you worthy to preach the Word of God.
To the person who said maybe we worshiped the Bible, does it not contain the Word of God? Have you unlearned everything even the truth?
So to the original poster of this thread who wrote,"im too young to recall names,
but didn't vpw go to some strange people for information, or study..
didn't he invite a "seed" people to visit with the corpse?
im just curious.
do any of you know of any strange or unusual people that vpw went to for learning purposes?"
Yes he did and every time you log on to GS you go to strange and unusual people (myself included) to learn and to fellowship.
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Ham
who in the world would argue with that point?
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Ham
Maybe the vicster should have come to me for some material
woulda saved you guys a lot of time..
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nandon
when i said strange... I meant strange for VPW and TWI. I wasn't talking about bullinger or other preachers. I just heard stories that VPW would bring people that he thought were "evil" or "seed" or "wrong" and use them as teaching points.
It was all in the context of what TWI and VPW would have considered "strange".
I think 4 crucified was the biggest waste of time in my life. Even video games were a better use of my time. At least they were fun.
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waysider
When I took the PFAL class, three areas of study that were stressed extensively were:
!.) figures of speech
2.) the seven administrations
3.) the "great mystery" revealed in Ephesians.
All three (and others as well ) can be found in Bullingers' writings. Yet, when I heard VPW teach them, he most definately implied that the origins of these ideas were unique to him(VPW) and made no attempt to convince anyone otherwise. It was presented by the local leadership as some sort of miraculous coincident that Bullinger too had arrived at the four crucified conclusion(Which for those inclined to do some legwork, has been academically discredited right here on GSC.) Even that in itself would nullify the claim that no one else had seen these things since the first century. When I became a class instructor, one thing we were told to specifically do after the session on "four crucified" was to instruct the students to NOT repeat this teaching to outsiders. It may have even been in the instructors syllabus(I don't recall.) The students were told that if outsiders got wind of this and wanted to know more they were to sign them up for "the class" and let VPW present it.Pleasant memories of times spent in The Way have absolutely no bearing on the fact that these teachings were not acceptably credited nor were they uniquely shown to VPW as they had not been shown for millenia.
In summary, VPW intentionally failed to give proper credit for others' work and the claim that no one had seen these things since the first century was an out and out falsehood. (Yes, we had some good times and yes, we learned some lessons that were beneficial )
I only added that last part about good times and beneficial lessons so that if someone were so inclined they could cut and paste it out of context.
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coolchef
and as an aside.....who really cares how many were crucified?? as long as we know that
our saviour was for us that is what counts 3 4 5 10? who cares. it was our lord that counts
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Ham
Coolchef, despite the vicster's dire warnings, I think that is the whole point.
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nandon
This reminds me of somthing...
I remember people saying that Bullinger MUST have come to the conclusion that the trinity didn't exist. This was based upon his Compaion Bible and the fact that TWI used it so much, and EW was 'right on' in so many other areas (like the 4 crucified).
that was an odd assumption... putting words into EW's mouth or was it true... ? maybe this could be a thread..
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markomalley
The importance of it is that VPW was trying to show how HE was right and that EVERYBODY ELSE was wrong.
And if VPW correctly showed how everybody else was wrong in this case, then his students would be more likely to be accepting of his conclusions, elsewhere, that contradicted Christianity. After all, we all saw the picture of the 4 crucified with Christ, didn't we? Those eeeeeevvvviiiiilllll Catholics knew it all along, but they were suppressing it from their people. I wonder what other truths they were suppressing from their people! (/sarcasm)
See, if he could show you how he was right with this and everybody else was wrong (on a relatively minor thing), then on more important doctrines, such as baptism, the Godhead, etc., it would require less rigor for him to get folks to believe him. And thus continue with his indoctrination.
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TheEvan
The way my foggy brain remembers is VP surmising that if EW had lived another x years, he'd a figured out the Trinity was bogus.
!
Did you catch the implication?
That VP's "special knowledge" of the Godhead was deeper and beyond Bullinger's accumulated Bible knowledge.
That's not just a gutsy (and unprovable) claim, it strikes me as another calculated "listen to me keeeds, Ah gawt the deeeepest knowledge of all" designed to set up exclusivity and dependence.
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Eagle
I doubt if I would list Bullinger or Pillai on the fringe. I respect them both, though I have some differences with Bullinger. But I still like them both. Hardly fringe teachings.
The Law of Believing thing is debatable, I question tithing as a principle though most churches including my own teach it.
I think those that are on the fringe now are those who must separate ways from those of us who do not necessarily believe all that Wierwille taught.
Eagle
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Eagle
Well, might as well say that the "Four Crucified Theory" along with the "Six Denials of Peter" and the original sin being masturbation are all debated in my book, mentioned on another thread. It is being updated as I speak and when updates are complete, can get it from Amazon.com. I even pretty much say the Eve lesbian theory is not credible and give the origin for that.
A lot of stuff is being debated in the book. It is advised not to buy the book yet because editing errors got through the first time around, so I'll have to announce when the book is ready. While it can be bought now, I feel that it is not complete. There are two major updates in it.
The book is titled "The Genesis Pursuit: The Lost History of Jesus Christ" and does take on most of these issues. I'll announce it on a special thread later when it is done. It is a big read. Over 560 pages but that includes scriptural and subject indexes, as well as notes and references. (My publisher does not do footnotes so it was harder to have readers see them right on the page. They are superscripted numerically and the reader goes to the back to find sources and information on some topics.)
I'll explain details on this site later. I have pretty much already been banned from one ex-Way fellowship because of it. I don't care anymore.
Eagle
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potato
I have your book on my amazon wishlist... I could only buy one book for christmas so it was "enough about you, let's talk about me"... had to get that, it's a guidebook for dealing with narcissists and I need a lot of healing in that category. I'm looking forward to reading your book because I'm moving beyond the wholesale distrust I have of anything "christian" and feeling ready to compare spiritual things with spiritual... and figure out what, if any, of twi doctrines line up with what the bible actually says, or if there's even enough scripture to even form an opinion on some of what twi called biblical doctrine... I have a feeling that a lot of what they said the "Word" says will actually crumble completely to the point of "no doctrine available" and I'll throw it in my "hold it in abatement" drawer (one of the only useful things I ever learned in twi, btw.)
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GrouchoMarxJr
Having been out of twi for nearly 20 years now, I would estimate that at least half (probably more) of what Wierwille taught was wrong.
The things he missed...he missed big.
Some interesting observations in this thread...especially concerning huckster Vic's M.O. for indoctrinating folks...ya gotta admit, he WAS a good con man...
...even as so many of his proteges follow in his footsteps...even to this day.
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Ham
Didn't the vicster claim he'd go "to the devil's heel" for truth, or some such nonsense?
I wonder if that qualifies as "strange people" vic went to for info..
"Plagiarize the devil"...
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Ham
Some legal "upstart" might consider playing the devil's advocate, and sue for copyright infringement..
Sorry, I feel just so bad this morning..
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Eagle
Thanks, Potato
I am updating the book, anyway. Don't buy it yet. I'll post it here when it is ready again. The book criticizes Wierwille's conclusions on many docrinal issues. I try not to blast anyone personally or even TWI. Just debate the doctrine. The doctrine is not debated without giving alternatives. The book is actually aimed at building belief in Christ again. But for those who want information on those issues, this is the book. I noticed that one person has found a lot of information on the Four Crucified theory which also was contained in my book. (Not that he got it from my book, it is just that anyone here, with enough interest could do the same thing, as this person did.)
God's Best to you and your family!
Eagle
(Steve)
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Kit Sober
Found on a "language log" and I thought you might enjoy it if you thought that vp was the one who originated, "Don't put a period where God has put a comma."
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johnj
VP had only 2 qualifications for strange people he used and/or plagiarized:
1. They had to use initials, not whole names, like VP did... KC (Pillai), EW (Bullinger), EW (Kenyon), JE (Stiles), etc
2. They had to teach / claim something that was odd, out of the mainstream, etc- something VP could use to claim that he knew and taught the word as it had not been known since the first century (except to him, "The Teacher.")
VP fit what the Apostle Paul warned about: "For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great numbwer of teachers to say what their itcbing ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. (2 Timothy 4:3-4)
VP's ears itched his whole life. If he had lived another 20 years, I have no doubt that TWI's teachings would have gotten more and more strange, much like Mormons did during founder Joe Smith's lifetime (they added- God used to be a man, you can become a god over your own world and have thousands of wives to bear children for your own planet, polygamy, the founder having sex with followers' wives is God's will, etc).
I remember a tape of Cummins teaching on athletes of the spirit. You can hear VP cheer approval in the background- he was getting all psyched by his itching ears getting scratched again. And more people bought the myth just because "The Teacher," "Doctor," was selling it.
PS: another strange source was Albert Cliffe, who the PFAL bio credits as a source of VP's teaching. Cliffe was a medium (spiritist, or to use a more contemporary term- channeler), which as you know was a real no-no in TWI.
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nandon
Cool post.
Albert cliffe was credited for PFAL? wierd... do you have a complete list of credits for PFAL? That would be interesting.
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waysider
BUMP
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...mp;#entry185146
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sirguessalot
ive heard that vpw read some of G.I. Gurdjieff's work
and thought it was a great counterfeit...or some such thing
the more i reflect on vpw's work...the more i suspect he was reading widely (and appropriating)
he would read it, and even though considering them "counterfeits,"
he would somehow integrate elements into his own metaphysics
what is now called "the Enneagram," for example, is something Gurdjieff studied and developed.
...even "9 manifestations of Spirit" is language that has been used in even older Christian thought regarding the Enneagram
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now I see
Has anyone done any research regarding Albert Cliffe? Is the reference there because of examples being used from Cliiffe illustrating dark practices or did vpee use him for a christian doctrine source?
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Ham
That would have supposedly been (as far as "seed" is concerned) Arthur Ford. Probably where the vicster learned some "showmanship" when channeling a reading.. ahem, operating revelation or something..
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