Doesn't your response put things in the category of God being a respector of persons and/or conditions?
Aren't signs to make life easier for us? For instance, do you ever wonder what a red octaganol sign with STOP in the middle means? Don't signs spell things out for us? Point the way? Give us directions? Do signs leave you wondering what they mean?
Ok.... I have some thoughts rolling around in my brain....it will take some time and space to sort them all out.....so bear with me please...
I got to the point of having absolutely no faith uin miracles or God`s protection after hearing about a ministers 12 yr old daughter that was abducted...and in spite of everyone in the churches prayers...found raped and murdered....
I thought what in the hell gives me the idea that God will be anymore capable or willing to protect MY children from horrible death?
It was a real crisis in faith....I began to even think that God wasn`t there...I CERTAINLY didn`t trust him with the safety of my beloved children....I was a neurotic basket case... rarely allowing my children out of my sight...
This is what happened to me....it is a bit complicated, but then again, it HAD to be because at the time, I could not accept any *truth* outside of my twi understanding.
I allowed my 5 yr old son to go spend the night with a boy who`s mother I trusted to moniter them closely.
I remeber at one point feeling very concerned for my son....but being very busy with my other children, only giving it a passing thought....
At one point ... a woman I barely knew, who`s son was a friend of my older boy...called me and asked me if my children were ok...she had felt an urge to pray...
Well, I thanked her, and assured her that all was well....and thought no more about it....
I retrieved my son the next day... healthy and whole.....not remembering the prmonition or prayers....
A few days later, he let it slip that he and the other little boy had gotten up early before the rest of the family and gone to a pond....
The other little boy was able to swim... and though nothing of getting in a canoe with my child who could not swim.......my son then got upset and told me that *carl* had started rocking the boat hard trying to scare him....well neither of the boys had life jackets both were dressed in heavy winter coats and boots...had the canoe turned over ....they would have sunk like rocks....
well...I remembered then that this was about the time frame that Gloria had called and asked if the kiddoes were ok.....
I thought wow...maybe her prayers saved em from a dunking...
The true significance wasnt made clear for another year.......
Throughout the next year, I became better aquainted with Gloria and got to know her as a deeply devout Christian woman.....
Learned to trust her judgement and wisdom....one day we were having a conversation about her mother who had heard *bells* whenever somebody was in mortal danger and needed prayers.
I kind of snickered mentally n thought mentally...yeah right them durn debbil spirits were really foolin this old gal....
My dear friend then revealed that after her mother died...SHE began hearing the *death bells* as she called em.
I kindda freaked....she said that she would be awakened in the dead of night to pray....and at first she ignored them, only to find out later that the person in question had suffered a calamity....usually resulting in death.
She found that when she heard the *bells* that if she prayed she would inevitably hear about someone somehow in a life or death battle....who`s crisis had come at the time she was alerted to pray.
Cathy...I heard death bells for Benji, the day I called you....
OMG all of a sudden I had this unbelievable picture in perfect clarity of my son sinking lifelessly to the bottom of that pond a year earlier.
It was like all of the pieces finally came together after an entire year....
It seems to be that prayer has some sort of energizing power to enact change....
I clearly remember my disquiet of a year earlier, but not recognizing it as a need to pray....or to take any action.....It is my speculation that maybe it was brought to Glorias attention because she would be able to recognize the *signal* that someone was in mortal danger and needed prayer fast.
The only conclusion that I could arrive at was that we need to be sensative and alert ....recognizing the promptings of that inner spirit for prayer....
I was humbled that not only would it appear that my child had not only been spared, but such great pains were taken to enlighten and assure me that I could indeed trust God and be at peace...
I don`t know how to explain it better other than it all finally made sense again to me.
This brings to question not only was God apparently willing to intercede for my son....
but apparently he wanted me aware of the whole situation as well
thus restoring a sembelence of peace and trust....
A) I was made aware that my child was in a specific situation, possibly dangerous...
B) I was made aware that someone was aware of a need to pray and had for my children...
C) a year is spent building my confidence and respect in this womans integrety and spirituality...
D) after trust is established and respect is earned,I am made aware of how far God was willing to go to get the attention of someone to pray for this child...
My conclusion? I suspect that if we aresimply more aware...if we UNDERSTAND the significance of those ques and promptings of the spirit within to take action ie in prayer and whatever else the situation may warrant.
Just my experience in the way I feel that God has helped me in my time of fear...when I couldn`t make everything fit in my understanding....
i don't understand what or who you think you are questioning or the questions or the expectations. all those that were healed in the scriptures are dead.
maybe understanding death would be better questions to ask.
i do understand complaining to god though
i do that myself
"Lovely...but in the meantime, God is healing and performing miracles for some, but not others.
Either God is a respector of persons, or there are conditions."
perhaps there is something missing in your understanding. something missing in the QUESTION.
to get to where these men were in the first century ain't no walk in the park
face death now, what you got to beat it?
they beat it first then lived
it's all over the friggin' scriptures
about what is to die and be made alive.
how badly do you want to see it?
how willing are you to consider what you have not thought about?
Satan has completely obscured the miraculously loving FACT that God, Himself, breathes the breath of life into every living thing on this planet.
God actively sustains every moment of life we get. That's pretty darn good of Him if you ask me.
Lucifer, now called Satan has spent the past 6,000+ years of life on the planet doing his level, and extremely powerful best to screw God's thing up. HE, Satan is the thief who comes to steal, kill and destroy. Lucifer is the author of death and the father of lies.
Occasionally he is successful. It's not, "Some people don't get the miracle." The numbers of people who die, get injured hurt or devastated in any way is not testimony to "God not healing everybody" it is a testament to how prevalent Satan's steal, kill and destroy thing actually is.
We must not forget the miracle of every single breath we take.
quote:
Originally posted by Oakspear:
Well, the bible says that God is no respector of persons, but not everybody gets equal benefits, do they?
Not eveybody does get healed, do they?
As they say, "That's what I'm talkin' about!"
That statement itself actually says that God IS a respecter of persons BECAUSE "not everybody gets equal benefits, DO they?"
I'm not talkin' about Oakie, but the fact that it is Satanically woven into the fabric of our culture to disguise the fact that ALL DEATH, sickness, lies and evil comes from Satan, not God. Satan has cast God in his "play" as a semi benevolent, semi malovelent yet jealous, absent minded three headed puppeteer who plays with the lives of his puppets at His own whim.
"I'll heal this one, forget THAT one. Bless one sicken two, bless one sicken two..." - - as He knits together the fabric of time on his pet planet.
- - - - - - - -
We say, "Not every body gets healed do they?" That statement puts the cart before the spiritual horse. It obscures the blame for death and suffering from Satan and places it at God's feet.
What they said to Jesus, "If you had been here my brother would not have died."... is a LIE from hell. The WHOLE truth is,
HAD SATAN NOT KILLED YOUR BROTHER I wouldn't have needed to have been there to save him.
Forgive me, as it is not my intention to disparage anyone in any way, but it is becoming more clear to me on a regular basis why life on this planet now, is not the "it" that God's eternal grace, mercy and love has in store for us.
When we start to see it more from HIS POV, our lives and more importantly, our untimely deaths and our suffering carry less and less significance. I have suffered greatly and continue to suffer in this life. So please don't think I'm talking "down" to any one.
I actually do see signs, miracles and wonders on a daily basis. I think sometime we miss seeing them while we look for them under ever rock, so to speak. His Word in James tells us the "benefits," trials and tribulations bring to our lives. It also tells us how things Satan brings upon us with evil intent, HE can and does work in us for good.
Including the most heinous loss ANY of us, His children, suffer. Somehow from HIS P.O.V. "getting the miracle" we know with all of our heart that we want, need and deserve is truly not THE best thing for us.
I know, "tell that to a mother who has just lost her child...."
For the ONE WHO DIES. God has made THEIR next moment of consciousness a new, perfect body, with Jesus upon his return.
Not too shabby. IF we REALLY believed that, we would not feel so much pain in an untimely death or any death or any tribulation or trial.
That's a little beyond us, "therefore comfort one another with these words." God lovingly knows we will suffer loss and "in every thing ... makes a way of escape."
We can get to the point when we can actually "count it all joy;" when we get close enough to Him that we actually believe all of the things James says trials & tribs will make unto us.
quote:
Either God is a respector of persons, or there are conditions.
God is NOT a respecter of persons, PERIOD.
Its is no more "Either/ or else" than I can say.
"Either I'm a millionare or the are conditions sometimes when I can buy stuff."
I am NOT a MILLIONARE, like period. :(-->
God's perfection binds Him to His laws, else if we jumped off "The Empire State Building," we'd bounce, harmlessly. Satan knows that. God's plan for us ia always good, Satan's evil. Satan wants to blur the line on God's side and get us to think... "God really doesn't love you. He's NOT really ALL good, IF He were, why would he let you suffer... like THIS!"
When HE slaps us.
WE are distracted by the pain while he says, "See, THAT guy over THERE got HEALED, WHY won't God heal you too?"
What we don't see through the pain is that the very question comes from HELL (or wherever Satan is). If we saw clearly the source of the question we'd turn from it. We'd eschew it. We wouldn't entertain it. We would turn more completely from Satan than we do. We would not go with God and "look back" like Lot's wife.
Then we might not get hit as often and need the healing in the first place. God's plan in the midst of this mess is that we all draw nearer to Him. The United States is SOOO far away from God as a whole society - - we can't even smell him from here.
One reality of my life is that according to the laws of Physics and Biology, I should be dead.
Miracle?
I am STILL in pain, every moment of every day, from the few second while scoming from LEAD in Tinnie, New Mexico in 1982 when that truck crashed and I was propelled forward at a force of about 5,000 lbs per sq. ft. smashing the windshield with my head.
I walked away from it. Miracle? Of course, I think most would say. I've said that God told me in precisely enought time so that I could do the precise thing that saved my life...a miracle that I was able to do it. A miracle that He told me in a manner that communicated in a way specific to me and my capabilities at the time.
A miracle that my knucklehead self actually heard and did what He said. :)-->
My question afterwards on many a tear-stained and soaked pillow was:
"If you saved me so damn miraculously, why was I hurt at all?"
Yes, that's exactly how I put it to Him. I cannot describe how it feels to cry:
not because it hurts,
or the pain is so great,
or that it won't stop hurting,
or because you can't sleep because of the pain,
or because you don't really care that you can't sleep,
you care more that the pain won't stop,
or that you're just tired of hurting,
because it won't stop.
You cry because you're tired from lack of sleep,
but none of that really matters, so why then are you crying if it doesn't matter?
BUT. It matters anyway, even though you feel like, "so what if it does matter?"
"So what if it doesnt?"
AND you cry, just because ALL of that hurts.
In layers, on top of each other, and still - - after all that.
It still hurts....
And it won't stop.
You're happy because you're alive, happier because you're better than you were, mad as hell because you're NOT what you once were - just the shell is left.
But still.
It hurts.... And it won't stop. The reality of "It won't stop not stopping..." was a real revalation of taking things to "the next level" (lower).
Will it ever stop?
Tears.
Stuff like that changes you.
I don't remember what its like to not feel pain. Sometimes I think I'm not hurting, but I'm wrong. Yup. it still hurts, somewhere.
What's up with that? Did I get a miracle at all? If this is a miracle, give me a shot at death, just for a few, for a few minutes, let me decide which I like better, OK?
BUT. I can't seem to die from this, even THAT hurts. Only in a different, less physically painful but still incredibly painful way.
I'm an "expert" on pain by now. Over the past 23 years I've been able to help, I don't know how many people deal with, I don't know how much pain of theirs. Dealing with my own pain has given me the strength to navigate situations in my own life where people close to me say constantly, "I don't know HOW you do it brother."
I don't know either. I know I just don't care what pain or pressure or strees comes my way... When the smoke clears, I'll still be standing. Even if I'm not strong, I cand BE strong at a given moment.
I know I didn't have that strength and confidence before. I don't know that without the pain I'd have it now. I know I can understand things I couldn't before the pain.
I know I have fathered children since then that would not be alive had my neck snapped like a twig when my head hit that windshield at 45+ MPH.
I believe each one of them is a miracle, beyond the "normal miracle" of child birth. Physically speaking, I SHOULD be dead. I was inches from suicide along the way to where I am now - prior to the births of my sons. Now there are two little copies of me for Satan to deal with, each unique in his own way. Then there's the three girls...
I think God turned what Satan meant for harm into good. I worked WITH Him to will and to do of His good pleasure... not too shabby for me either.
Thank you! You brought my thoughts out of the gutter. Of course the devil is the god of this world and causes all the darkness. Going back to the Word and our loving Father always sheds light.
Father knows best. Good slogan!
I have a friend who is always in pain and is always "believing" for deliverance. She is not mobile enough to even think about helping someone else and in a case like that, I believe that is what we are around for.
Once we can get out minds off ourselves and look to help others, it helps us too!
You are a wonderful witness of someone who loves and trusts God. I hope you know that.
There appears to be another thread on suffering just opened and I hope you take the time to share this there also.
I wonder just how many people got hurt in Tinnie instead of helped. The crap that went back to leadership about me was really reaching, just pure bull. At least I wasn't afraid to say so and was able to laugh at it. I realize I was fortunate not to carry it around. I am sorry for your injuries, but glad for your insight. You made my day. Now I can go mow my grass and get ready for this ridiculous hurricane with a smile on my face. :D-->
I wonder just how many people got hurt in Tinnie instead of helped.
Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God?
I am personally an advocate of ropes courses, having taught both high ropes and low ropes for a few years during the 90s (as a part of teambuilding classes). My perception of LEAD was that it was just a glorified ropes course. But, after reading accounts of LEAD from some people like HCW and others tells me that any resemblence between LEAD and a properly-run high ropes course is purely coincidental. Safety is always the first rule with a ropes course...therefore the number of accidents is minimal. It seems that safety was, at best, an afterthought, for LEAD. That surely had to impact its effectiveness.
Miracles? As I stated in earlier posts, arrogance impedes that from happening. This stuff about LEAD shows another example of the institutional arrogance displayed by TWI.
I have a friend who is always in pain and is always believing" for deliverance. She is not mobile enough to even think about helping someone else and in a case like that, I believe that is what we are around for.
Does your friend know how to type and have a computer and net connection? If so, she can help others using the internet as her way out to the rest of the world. I know, I've been doing it for years.
On the very rare occasions I get out of the house (once every month or two), I have the hassle of having the hubby or someone else carry my wheelchair down the flight of stairs first. Pain in the butt for all involved. Not to mention how much I hate that thing. I've learned though, thru the years, that dropping like a rock to the floor when the pain hits, will upset and confuse others around me, so using the chair prevents that from happening. I have to be content to just walk at my own slow pace thru the house where no one can see me if I fall and have to sit and rest awhile where ever I've dropped.
I have Crohn's Disease, IBS, Fibro and a bubbling skin disease associated with Crohn's (4 out of every million Crohnies get it). There is no cure for any of this, so all the believing in the world won't help me. I've come a long way from what TWI told us. I do believe in prayer and know how many times God has helped me get thru the bad days when the pain is so bad I passed out from it. I went from birth till I was 41 years old before I found a doctor willing to listen to me and believe I had real pain. At that point I flared so badly I dropped to 72 pounds and didn't have the strength left to stand up on my own and walk. After 2 doctors called me a drug seeker, I finally met the one who listened and ran the tests that found the Crohn's. Surgery followed. When I saw the picture the surgeon took of the section of small bowel he cut out of me, I immediately thanked God for keeping me alive all those years and next for putting me with the right doctor. The doc said I was about 2 weeks shy of dying and I believe that is true. I could feel it.
7 years later and I'm flaring bad again. This time I have no insurance, so Crohn's meds and surgery aren't an option. A friend pays for my pain meds so I can have some quality of life and get thru each day. The internet is what keeps me mentally sane and gets me out to the world. I would go nuts without it. I'd have no one to talk to and you can only stare at the walls for so long before you go totally insane.
I bet your friend knows about a lot of different things and online she will find people who have the same interests to talk with and help. On the off hours when no one is around (if she keeps strange hours like I do), a computer gives her access to games that will entertain as she passes time. Talking to other pain patients is always a huge help for someone with intractable pain ... they won't hear what you say as 'griping or whining', but as venting, so you can move on to more enjoyable things.
The past two days I've woken up to pain attacks. I sat here curled up in my chair, with my arm up on my legs, which I pull up against my gut, screaming into my arm till the pain starts to fade away in about an hour after the pain meds take effect. (The arm helps muffle my screams so a neighbor won't think something bad is happening inside here and would call the cops. LOL.) As I wait for the meds to hit I will check my email and any IM's left on Yahoo for me. I normally have a few there and they will bring a smile, even as tears run down my face. I would be totally lost without the net.
Well, I feel like a "lightweight" for posting this after hearing from HCW and Biker Babe. But I was miraculously healed of sudden onset asthma. My wife (fiancee at the time) was a W.O.W. in Cleveland and I was attending Marshall University in Huntington, WV. During winter break in January, I travelled from Huntington where it was unseasonably warm, to our home in Wheeling, WV. where it was typically wintery weather. The sudden climate change triggered an asthma attack.
I had suffered these from early childhood. I would just lay on a chaise lounge for days laboring to breath. Each breath was a struggle and sometimes I wondered if I was going to be able to keep it up. But generally, the attack would fade after a few days. Such was the case in Wheeling. I spent about two days wheezing and then travelled to Cleveland to visit my sweetie. Unfortunately Cleveland was even colder than Wheeling so the first morning there, I awoke (on the couch) weak and wheezing. Deb came over and ministered to me and prayed for God to heal my bronchial tubes. As she prayed it felt like someone was pumping fresh air into my lungs. The attack ended immediately--something that had never happened before. That was 22 years ago and I've not had another one since.
I consider that a miraculous healing. I've been healed of other things before, but not immediately. So I guess I still hold to TWI's distinction between a miracle and a healing. But the bottom line is, I've been delivered from asthma, for which I thank God!
Oak, the only condition necessary is that a thing be according to his will. He has his reasons, not all of which are clear to us.<BR><BR>I don't believe we necessarily have a role to play. He's not waiting for you or me to push some button.
HI Evan! At the risk of sounding hard-hearted, proud, and/or mean, I have to disagree. I do think we have a role to play in what happens in our lives. The Bible and my experiences have lead me to believe that faith, wisdom, and obedience are critical ingredients in the quality of our lives. Wisdom and faith can appropriate blessings, but disobedience or the lack of wisdom can cause problems that faith can't fix.
I know we've all debunked VP's "Law of believing." It was overwrought and flawed the way VP presented it and the way TWI practiced it, but the Bible does say repeatedly that when Jesus healed someone, he told them it was because of their faith. When his Apostles were terrified of drowing in a storm at sea--an understandable reaction to a dire situation--he chastised them for having little faith.
In my own life I've seen instances where I did and didn't receive answers to prayer for healing and I know that the difference was the focus of my faith. There's more to it than that, but I will say that TWI taught this backward and caused a lot of hurt and confustion. I didn't hear it straigthened out until the WV LC Gary C## taught it to us about a year after the P.O.P. It made a trememdous difference in my life. But I digress.
But let me stop right here and say that faith is something we all have in different levels. TWI spoke of "longsuits". For lack of a better word, I'll use it here. Some have a longsuit in faith, others have it in love, patience, kindness, wisdom, intuition or something else. I may have a "longsuit" in faith, but it's more than offset by the fact that I make lousy decisions under pressure. To put it biblically I suppose it's a lack of wisdom, a character weakness, or just plain foolishness.
So I tend to get myself into bad situations because of bad decisions. And for that, there may be no fix that faith can appropriate. If I make a bad career or financial decision, my whole family may suffer for it for months or years. Perhaps LEAD was The Way making bad decisions for which many followers suffered just as my kids do when I screw up. It's not their fault. They didn't do anything wrong. But if their Dad does something stupid, they're going to share in the consequences.
I have also seen dramatic changes in my life's circumstances brought about by changing from ignoring God's will to accepting and carrying it out. That of course falls in the category of obedience & disobedience. Disobedience robs us of blessings and may keep us in problematic circumstances we're praying and believing unsuccessfully to get out of. That is to say, sometimes faith is not the answer, obedience is. Sometimes we can pray for deliverance from a situation, and God will tell us what we need to do. But we don't want to do that, so we just keep praying, and "believing" and getting nowhere. Then we finally acquiesce and do what we've been told to and voila! Problem solved. Again, I don't mean to imply that HCW is disobedient. I'm only saying that it has been a factor in my life and I think the Scripture supports the idea that when we ignore or resist God's will we bring consequences to ourselves that prayer and believing may not remove.
Well that's all for me. Again, I'm not trying to make anyone feel bad. Just sharing my perspective from what I've learned from reading, living, from occasionally getting it right and seeing what happens when I get it wrong.
Wow Jerry! God is good. Thanks for sharing your story with everyone, I enjoyed reading what God did for you. :)
Please, don't feel like a lightweight. Pain is subjective, what might hurt me wouldn't necessily hurt someone else. Each of our bodies are unique and react differently to things. I can relate to the cold though. Anything under 70 degrees and I will flare, so when I say I'm allergic to snow, there's always a bit of 'truth' in that joke. A Crohnie friend of mine can't handle heat and flares bad. He and I have fun teasing each other about what makes us flare.
One thing is for sure. I'll take my gut pain any day over your asthma. Not being able to breathe would scare the crap out of me (no pun intended).
Hi Jerry, BB, et al. My 'puter connection is back up after getting knocked out for a few short days with Rita.
Anyway Jerry, I was talking miracles. I don't think we have a role to play in miracles...in the sense that we cannot dictate to God what He is going to do in that department. When it's time for a miracle, He either just hauls off with one, or uses a chosen & yielded vessel to do His bidding.
I still think the big point of miracles is the sign...the thing god is trying to tell us with the miracle. There are secondary blessings...to the one healed or circumstance changed, etc. But if you'll simply go through miracles listed in the Bible, you'll find that the overwhelming majority state a reason for the miracle. Frequemtly it's along the lines of "that they may know that there is a God in Israel" or the such like.
I'm sorry, I misunderstood the context of your remarks. You're right of course. miracles are entirely God's doing. Acts 8 something or other says Phillip did the miracles that astonished Simon the Sorcerer. VP made a big deal of that, but I can't see Phillip deciding on what miracle he was going to do and then believing to make it happen. I think God decided what He was going to do and gave Phillip simple instructions. God did the miracle as Phillip acted. I could be way off base but it makes sense to me.
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irisheyes
Evan,
Doesn't your response put things in the category of God being a respector of persons and/or conditions?
Aren't signs to make life easier for us? For instance, do you ever wonder what a red octaganol sign with STOP in the middle means? Don't signs spell things out for us? Point the way? Give us directions? Do signs leave you wondering what they mean?
Just what is your definition of a sign?
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Oakspear
Well, the bible says that God is no respector of persons, but not everybody gets equal benefits, do they?
Not eveybody does get healed, do they?
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rascal
Ok.... I have some thoughts rolling around in my brain....it will take some time and space to sort them all out.....so bear with me please...
I got to the point of having absolutely no faith uin miracles or God`s protection after hearing about a ministers 12 yr old daughter that was abducted...and in spite of everyone in the churches prayers...found raped and murdered....
I thought what in the hell gives me the idea that God will be anymore capable or willing to protect MY children from horrible death?
It was a real crisis in faith....I began to even think that God wasn`t there...I CERTAINLY didn`t trust him with the safety of my beloved children....I was a neurotic basket case... rarely allowing my children out of my sight...
This is what happened to me....it is a bit complicated, but then again, it HAD to be because at the time, I could not accept any *truth* outside of my twi understanding.
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rascal
I allowed my 5 yr old son to go spend the night with a boy who`s mother I trusted to moniter them closely.
I remeber at one point feeling very concerned for my son....but being very busy with my other children, only giving it a passing thought....
At one point ... a woman I barely knew, who`s son was a friend of my older boy...called me and asked me if my children were ok...she had felt an urge to pray...
Well, I thanked her, and assured her that all was well....and thought no more about it....
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CM
it's a glimpse into the new heavens and earth
the new body, healing from within by spirit
everyone will be healed...no exceptions
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rascal
I retrieved my son the next day... healthy and whole.....not remembering the prmonition or prayers....
A few days later, he let it slip that he and the other little boy had gotten up early before the rest of the family and gone to a pond....
The other little boy was able to swim... and though nothing of getting in a canoe with my child who could not swim.......my son then got upset and told me that *carl* had started rocking the boat hard trying to scare him....well neither of the boys had life jackets both were dressed in heavy winter coats and boots...had the canoe turned over ....they would have sunk like rocks....
well...I remembered then that this was about the time frame that Gloria had called and asked if the kiddoes were ok.....
I thought wow...maybe her prayers saved em from a dunking...
The true significance wasnt made clear for another year.......
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rascal
Throughout the next year, I became better aquainted with Gloria and got to know her as a deeply devout Christian woman.....
Learned to trust her judgement and wisdom....one day we were having a conversation about her mother who had heard *bells* whenever somebody was in mortal danger and needed prayers.
I kind of snickered mentally n thought mentally...yeah right them durn debbil spirits were really foolin this old gal....
My dear friend then revealed that after her mother died...SHE began hearing the *death bells* as she called em.
I kindda freaked....she said that she would be awakened in the dead of night to pray....and at first she ignored them, only to find out later that the person in question had suffered a calamity....usually resulting in death.
She found that when she heard the *bells* that if she prayed she would inevitably hear about someone somehow in a life or death battle....who`s crisis had come at the time she was alerted to pray.
She then turned and looked at me and said.....
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rascal
Cathy...I heard death bells for Benji, the day I called you....
OMG all of a sudden I had this unbelievable picture in perfect clarity of my son sinking lifelessly to the bottom of that pond a year earlier.
It was like all of the pieces finally came together after an entire year....
It seems to be that prayer has some sort of energizing power to enact change....
I clearly remember my disquiet of a year earlier, but not recognizing it as a need to pray....or to take any action.....It is my speculation that maybe it was brought to Glorias attention because she would be able to recognize the *signal* that someone was in mortal danger and needed prayer fast.
The only conclusion that I could arrive at was that we need to be sensative and alert ....recognizing the promptings of that inner spirit for prayer....
I was humbled that not only would it appear that my child had not only been spared, but such great pains were taken to enlighten and assure me that I could indeed trust God and be at peace...
I don`t know how to explain it better other than it all finally made sense again to me.
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rascal
This brings to question not only was God apparently willing to intercede for my son....
but apparently he wanted me aware of the whole situation as well
thus restoring a sembelence of peace and trust....
A) I was made aware that my child was in a specific situation, possibly dangerous...
B) I was made aware that someone was aware of a need to pray and had for my children...
C) a year is spent building my confidence and respect in this womans integrety and spirituality...
D) after trust is established and respect is earned,I am made aware of how far God was willing to go to get the attention of someone to pray for this child...
My conclusion? I suspect that if we aresimply more aware...if we UNDERSTAND the significance of those ques and promptings of the spirit within to take action ie in prayer and whatever else the situation may warrant.
Just my experience in the way I feel that God has helped me in my time of fear...when I couldn`t make everything fit in my understanding....
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Oakspear
Either God is a respector of persons, or there are conditions.
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TheEvan
Oak, the only condition necessary is that a thing be according to his will. He has his reasons, not all of which are clear to us.
I don't believe we necessarily have a role to play. He's not waiting for you or me to push some button.
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CM
Oakspear
i don't understand what or who you think you are questioning or the questions or the expectations. all those that were healed in the scriptures are dead.
maybe understanding death would be better questions to ask.
i do understand complaining to god though
i do that myself
"Lovely...but in the meantime, God is healing and performing miracles for some, but not others.
Either God is a respector of persons, or there are conditions."
perhaps there is something missing in your understanding. something missing in the QUESTION.
to get to where these men were in the first century ain't no walk in the park
face death now, what you got to beat it?
they beat it first then lived
it's all over the friggin' scriptures
about what is to die and be made alive.
how badly do you want to see it?
how willing are you to consider what you have not thought about?
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HCW
Satan has completely obscured the miraculously loving FACT that God, Himself, breathes the breath of life into every living thing on this planet.
God actively sustains every moment of life we get. That's pretty darn good of Him if you ask me.
Lucifer, now called Satan has spent the past 6,000+ years of life on the planet doing his level, and extremely powerful best to screw God's thing up. HE, Satan is the thief who comes to steal, kill and destroy. Lucifer is the author of death and the father of lies.
Occasionally he is successful. It's not, "Some people don't get the miracle." The numbers of people who die, get injured hurt or devastated in any way is not testimony to "God not healing everybody" it is a testament to how prevalent Satan's steal, kill and destroy thing actually is.
We must not forget the miracle of every single breath we take.
As they say, "That's what I'm talkin' about!"
That statement itself actually says that God IS a respecter of persons BECAUSE "not everybody gets equal benefits, DO they?"
I'm not talkin' about Oakie, but the fact that it is Satanically woven into the fabric of our culture to disguise the fact that ALL DEATH, sickness, lies and evil comes from Satan, not God. Satan has cast God in his "play" as a semi benevolent, semi malovelent yet jealous, absent minded three headed puppeteer who plays with the lives of his puppets at His own whim.
"I'll heal this one, forget THAT one. Bless one sicken two, bless one sicken two..." - - as He knits together the fabric of time on his pet planet.
- - - - - - - -
We say, "Not every body gets healed do they?" That statement puts the cart before the spiritual horse. It obscures the blame for death and suffering from Satan and places it at God's feet.
What they said to Jesus, "If you had been here my brother would not have died."... is a LIE from hell. The WHOLE truth is,
HAD SATAN NOT KILLED YOUR BROTHER I wouldn't have needed to have been there to save him.
Forgive me, as it is not my intention to disparage anyone in any way, but it is becoming more clear to me on a regular basis why life on this planet now, is not the "it" that God's eternal grace, mercy and love has in store for us.
When we start to see it more from HIS POV, our lives and more importantly, our untimely deaths and our suffering carry less and less significance. I have suffered greatly and continue to suffer in this life. So please don't think I'm talking "down" to any one.
I actually do see signs, miracles and wonders on a daily basis. I think sometime we miss seeing them while we look for them under ever rock, so to speak. His Word in James tells us the "benefits," trials and tribulations bring to our lives. It also tells us how things Satan brings upon us with evil intent, HE can and does work in us for good.
Including the most heinous loss ANY of us, His children, suffer. Somehow from HIS P.O.V. "getting the miracle" we know with all of our heart that we want, need and deserve is truly not THE best thing for us.
I know, "tell that to a mother who has just lost her child...."
For the ONE WHO DIES. God has made THEIR next moment of consciousness a new, perfect body, with Jesus upon his return.
Not too shabby. IF we REALLY believed that, we would not feel so much pain in an untimely death or any death or any tribulation or trial.
That's a little beyond us, "therefore comfort one another with these words." God lovingly knows we will suffer loss and "in every thing ... makes a way of escape."
We can get to the point when we can actually "count it all joy;" when we get close enough to Him that we actually believe all of the things James says trials & tribs will make unto us.
God is NOT a respecter of persons, PERIOD.
Its is no more "Either/ or else" than I can say.
"Either I'm a millionare or the are conditions sometimes when I can buy stuff."
I am NOT a MILLIONARE, like period.
:(-->
God's perfection binds Him to His laws, else if we jumped off "The Empire State Building," we'd bounce, harmlessly. Satan knows that. God's plan for us ia always good, Satan's evil. Satan wants to blur the line on God's side and get us to think... "God really doesn't love you. He's NOT really ALL good, IF He were, why would he let you suffer... like THIS!"
When HE slaps us.
WE are distracted by the pain while he says, "See, THAT guy over THERE got HEALED, WHY won't God heal you too?"
What we don't see through the pain is that the very question comes from HELL (or wherever Satan is). If we saw clearly the source of the question we'd turn from it. We'd eschew it. We wouldn't entertain it. We would turn more completely from Satan than we do. We would not go with God and "look back" like Lot's wife.
Then we might not get hit as often and need the healing in the first place. God's plan in the midst of this mess is that we all draw nearer to Him. The United States is SOOO far away from God as a whole society - - we can't even smell him from here.
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HCW
One reality of my life is that according to the laws of Physics and Biology, I should be dead.
Miracle?
I am STILL in pain, every moment of every day, from the few second while scoming from LEAD in Tinnie, New Mexico in 1982 when that truck crashed and I was propelled forward at a force of about 5,000 lbs per sq. ft. smashing the windshield with my head.
I walked away from it. Miracle? Of course, I think most would say. I've said that God told me in precisely enought time so that I could do the precise thing that saved my life...a miracle that I was able to do it. A miracle that He told me in a manner that communicated in a way specific to me and my capabilities at the time.
A miracle that my knucklehead self actually heard and did what He said.
:)-->
My question afterwards on many a tear-stained and soaked pillow was:
"If you saved me so damn miraculously, why was I hurt at all?"
Yes, that's exactly how I put it to Him. I cannot describe how it feels to cry:
not because it hurts,
or the pain is so great,
or that it won't stop hurting,
or because you can't sleep because of the pain,
or because you don't really care that you can't sleep,
you care more that the pain won't stop,
or that you're just tired of hurting,
because it won't stop.
You cry because you're tired from lack of sleep,
but none of that really matters, so why then are you crying if it doesn't matter?
BUT. It matters anyway, even though you feel like, "so what if it does matter?"
"So what if it doesnt?"
AND you cry, just because ALL of that hurts.
In layers, on top of each other, and still - - after all that.
It still hurts....
And it won't stop.
You're happy because you're alive, happier because you're better than you were, mad as hell because you're NOT what you once were - just the shell is left.
But still.
It hurts.... And it won't stop. The reality of "It won't stop not stopping..." was a real revalation of taking things to "the next level" (lower).
Will it ever stop?
Tears.
Stuff like that changes you.
I don't remember what its like to not feel pain. Sometimes I think I'm not hurting, but I'm wrong. Yup. it still hurts, somewhere.
What's up with that? Did I get a miracle at all? If this is a miracle, give me a shot at death, just for a few, for a few minutes, let me decide which I like better, OK?
BUT. I can't seem to die from this, even THAT hurts. Only in a different, less physically painful but still incredibly painful way.
I'm an "expert" on pain by now. Over the past 23 years I've been able to help, I don't know how many people deal with, I don't know how much pain of theirs. Dealing with my own pain has given me the strength to navigate situations in my own life where people close to me say constantly, "I don't know HOW you do it brother."
I don't know either. I know I just don't care what pain or pressure or strees comes my way... When the smoke clears, I'll still be standing. Even if I'm not strong, I cand BE strong at a given moment.
I know I didn't have that strength and confidence before. I don't know that without the pain I'd have it now. I know I can understand things I couldn't before the pain.
I know I have fathered children since then that would not be alive had my neck snapped like a twig when my head hit that windshield at 45+ MPH.
I believe each one of them is a miracle, beyond the "normal miracle" of child birth. Physically speaking, I SHOULD be dead. I was inches from suicide along the way to where I am now - prior to the births of my sons. Now there are two little copies of me for Satan to deal with, each unique in his own way. Then there's the three girls...
I think God turned what Satan meant for harm into good. I worked WITH Him to will and to do of His good pleasure... not too shabby for me either.
Miracles.
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irisheyes
H:
Thank you! You brought my thoughts out of the gutter. Of course the devil is the god of this world and causes all the darkness. Going back to the Word and our loving Father always sheds light.
Father knows best. Good slogan!
I have a friend who is always in pain and is always "believing" for deliverance. She is not mobile enough to even think about helping someone else and in a case like that, I believe that is what we are around for.
Once we can get out minds off ourselves and look to help others, it helps us too!
You are a wonderful witness of someone who loves and trusts God. I hope you know that.
There appears to be another thread on suffering just opened and I hope you take the time to share this there also.
I wonder just how many people got hurt in Tinnie instead of helped. The crap that went back to leadership about me was really reaching, just pure bull. At least I wasn't afraid to say so and was able to laugh at it. I realize I was fortunate not to carry it around. I am sorry for your injuries, but glad for your insight. You made my day. Now I can go mow my grass and get ready for this ridiculous hurricane with a smile on my face.
:D-->
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markomalley
Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God?
I am personally an advocate of ropes courses, having taught both high ropes and low ropes for a few years during the 90s (as a part of teambuilding classes). My perception of LEAD was that it was just a glorified ropes course. But, after reading accounts of LEAD from some people like HCW and others tells me that any resemblence between LEAD and a properly-run high ropes course is purely coincidental. Safety is always the first rule with a ropes course...therefore the number of accidents is minimal. It seems that safety was, at best, an afterthought, for LEAD. That surely had to impact its effectiveness.
Miracles? As I stated in earlier posts, arrogance impedes that from happening. This stuff about LEAD shows another example of the institutional arrogance displayed by TWI.
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BikerBabe
Does your friend know how to type and have a computer and net connection? If so, she can help others using the internet as her way out to the rest of the world. I know, I've been doing it for years.
On the very rare occasions I get out of the house (once every month or two), I have the hassle of having the hubby or someone else carry my wheelchair down the flight of stairs first. Pain in the butt for all involved. Not to mention how much I hate that thing. I've learned though, thru the years, that dropping like a rock to the floor when the pain hits, will upset and confuse others around me, so using the chair prevents that from happening. I have to be content to just walk at my own slow pace thru the house where no one can see me if I fall and have to sit and rest awhile where ever I've dropped.
I have Crohn's Disease, IBS, Fibro and a bubbling skin disease associated with Crohn's (4 out of every million Crohnies get it). There is no cure for any of this, so all the believing in the world won't help me. I've come a long way from what TWI told us. I do believe in prayer and know how many times God has helped me get thru the bad days when the pain is so bad I passed out from it. I went from birth till I was 41 years old before I found a doctor willing to listen to me and believe I had real pain. At that point I flared so badly I dropped to 72 pounds and didn't have the strength left to stand up on my own and walk. After 2 doctors called me a drug seeker, I finally met the one who listened and ran the tests that found the Crohn's. Surgery followed. When I saw the picture the surgeon took of the section of small bowel he cut out of me, I immediately thanked God for keeping me alive all those years and next for putting me with the right doctor. The doc said I was about 2 weeks shy of dying and I believe that is true. I could feel it.
7 years later and I'm flaring bad again. This time I have no insurance, so Crohn's meds and surgery aren't an option. A friend pays for my pain meds so I can have some quality of life and get thru each day. The internet is what keeps me mentally sane and gets me out to the world. I would go nuts without it. I'd have no one to talk to and you can only stare at the walls for so long before you go totally insane.
I bet your friend knows about a lot of different things and online she will find people who have the same interests to talk with and help. On the off hours when no one is around (if she keeps strange hours like I do), a computer gives her access to games that will entertain as she passes time. Talking to other pain patients is always a huge help for someone with intractable pain ... they won't hear what you say as 'griping or whining', but as venting, so you can move on to more enjoyable things.
The past two days I've woken up to pain attacks. I sat here curled up in my chair, with my arm up on my legs, which I pull up against my gut, screaming into my arm till the pain starts to fade away in about an hour after the pain meds take effect. (The arm helps muffle my screams so a neighbor won't think something bad is happening inside here and would call the cops. LOL.) As I wait for the meds to hit I will check my email and any IM's left on Yahoo for me. I normally have a few there and they will bring a smile, even as tears run down my face. I would be totally lost without the net.
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Jbarrax
Well, I feel like a "lightweight" for posting this after hearing from HCW and Biker Babe. But I was miraculously healed of sudden onset asthma. My wife (fiancee at the time) was a W.O.W. in Cleveland and I was attending Marshall University in Huntington, WV. During winter break in January, I travelled from Huntington where it was unseasonably warm, to our home in Wheeling, WV. where it was typically wintery weather. The sudden climate change triggered an asthma attack.
I had suffered these from early childhood. I would just lay on a chaise lounge for days laboring to breath. Each breath was a struggle and sometimes I wondered if I was going to be able to keep it up. But generally, the attack would fade after a few days. Such was the case in Wheeling. I spent about two days wheezing and then travelled to Cleveland to visit my sweetie. Unfortunately Cleveland was even colder than Wheeling so the first morning there, I awoke (on the couch) weak and wheezing. Deb came over and ministered to me and prayed for God to heal my bronchial tubes. As she prayed it felt like someone was pumping fresh air into my lungs. The attack ended immediately--something that had never happened before. That was 22 years ago and I've not had another one since.
I consider that a miraculous healing. I've been healed of other things before, but not immediately. So I guess I still hold to TWI's distinction between a miracle and a healing. But the bottom line is, I've been delivered from asthma, for which I thank God!
Peace
JerryB
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Jbarrax
HI Evan! At the risk of sounding hard-hearted, proud, and/or mean, I have to disagree. I do think we have a role to play in what happens in our lives. The Bible and my experiences have lead me to believe that faith, wisdom, and obedience are critical ingredients in the quality of our lives. Wisdom and faith can appropriate blessings, but disobedience or the lack of wisdom can cause problems that faith can't fix.
I know we've all debunked VP's "Law of believing." It was overwrought and flawed the way VP presented it and the way TWI practiced it, but the Bible does say repeatedly that when Jesus healed someone, he told them it was because of their faith. When his Apostles were terrified of drowing in a storm at sea--an understandable reaction to a dire situation--he chastised them for having little faith.
In my own life I've seen instances where I did and didn't receive answers to prayer for healing and I know that the difference was the focus of my faith. There's more to it than that, but I will say that TWI taught this backward and caused a lot of hurt and confustion. I didn't hear it straigthened out until the WV LC Gary C## taught it to us about a year after the P.O.P. It made a trememdous difference in my life. But I digress.
But let me stop right here and say that faith is something we all have in different levels. TWI spoke of "longsuits". For lack of a better word, I'll use it here. Some have a longsuit in faith, others have it in love, patience, kindness, wisdom, intuition or something else. I may have a "longsuit" in faith, but it's more than offset by the fact that I make lousy decisions under pressure. To put it biblically I suppose it's a lack of wisdom, a character weakness, or just plain foolishness.
So I tend to get myself into bad situations because of bad decisions. And for that, there may be no fix that faith can appropriate. If I make a bad career or financial decision, my whole family may suffer for it for months or years. Perhaps LEAD was The Way making bad decisions for which many followers suffered just as my kids do when I screw up. It's not their fault. They didn't do anything wrong. But if their Dad does something stupid, they're going to share in the consequences.
I have also seen dramatic changes in my life's circumstances brought about by changing from ignoring God's will to accepting and carrying it out. That of course falls in the category of obedience & disobedience. Disobedience robs us of blessings and may keep us in problematic circumstances we're praying and believing unsuccessfully to get out of. That is to say, sometimes faith is not the answer, obedience is. Sometimes we can pray for deliverance from a situation, and God will tell us what we need to do. But we don't want to do that, so we just keep praying, and "believing" and getting nowhere. Then we finally acquiesce and do what we've been told to and voila! Problem solved. Again, I don't mean to imply that HCW is disobedient. I'm only saying that it has been a factor in my life and I think the Scripture supports the idea that when we ignore or resist God's will we bring consequences to ourselves that prayer and believing may not remove.
Well that's all for me. Again, I'm not trying to make anyone feel bad. Just sharing my perspective from what I've learned from reading, living, from occasionally getting it right and seeing what happens when I get it wrong.
Peace
JerryB
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BikerBabe
Wow Jerry! God is good. Thanks for sharing your story with everyone, I enjoyed reading what God did for you. :)
Please, don't feel like a lightweight. Pain is subjective, what might hurt me wouldn't necessily hurt someone else. Each of our bodies are unique and react differently to things. I can relate to the cold though. Anything under 70 degrees and I will flare, so when I say I'm allergic to snow, there's always a bit of 'truth' in that joke. A Crohnie friend of mine can't handle heat and flares bad. He and I have fun teasing each other about what makes us flare.
One thing is for sure. I'll take my gut pain any day over your asthma. Not being able to breathe would scare the crap out of me (no pun intended).
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TheEvan
Hi Jerry, BB, et al. My 'puter connection is back up after getting knocked out for a few short days with Rita.
Anyway Jerry, I was talking miracles. I don't think we have a role to play in miracles...in the sense that we cannot dictate to God what He is going to do in that department. When it's time for a miracle, He either just hauls off with one, or uses a chosen & yielded vessel to do His bidding.
I still think the big point of miracles is the sign...the thing god is trying to tell us with the miracle. There are secondary blessings...to the one healed or circumstance changed, etc. But if you'll simply go through miracles listed in the Bible, you'll find that the overwhelming majority state a reason for the miracle. Frequemtly it's along the lines of "that they may know that there is a God in Israel" or the such like.
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Jbarrax
Hi Evan.
I'm sorry, I misunderstood the context of your remarks. You're right of course. miracles are entirely God's doing. Acts 8 something or other says Phillip did the miracles that astonished Simon the Sorcerer. VP made a big deal of that, but I can't see Phillip deciding on what miracle he was going to do and then believing to make it happen. I think God decided what He was going to do and gave Phillip simple instructions. God did the miracle as Phillip acted. I could be way off base but it makes sense to me.
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