I don't know...I hear of miracles happening on a regular basis. Not literally constantly, but its not like they've disappeared off the face of the earth.
Maybe you could be more specific in what you're talking about here? Are you referring to spectacular phenomenal miracles (a la the tongues of fire over the apostles)? or something else?
No, I'm not talking phenominal. Even though most miracles must be in that category. I'm wondering about "everyday" kind of stuff like people being healed. Of course, there have been things in my life that I refuse to accept as "coincidence", but someone of different beliefs would easily say I couldn't prove these were miracles. I'm talking about stuff that you can't mistake for something like coincidence. Things spontaeous, unexplainable, and spiritual in nature; i.e., the whole church prayed for so and so and he got up off his death bed and is fine now. Or an angel appearing and rescuing someone off the side of a cliff. I mean what is the difference between signs, miracles and wonders? Is there a difference? Why do some people get them and not others? Surely God can intervene when the going gets tough? Or are His hands tied in our time?
Did any of the things happen at Lourdes, with Brother Andre, or with Padre Pio? I can't say from personal experience...the only one of the three places I've been was to San Giovanni Rotondo...
All I do know is that the Catholic Church is exceedingly careful in acknowledging something as a miracle. The reason for this is that there have been some questionable miracles declared during the middle ages. They do a thorough investigation of any purported miracle now and if there is any possibility of explanation of a natural cause for the phenomenon, it is automatically ruled out as being declared an acknowledged miracle. Thousands upon thousands of people have reported cures from Lourdes. Out of that quantity, only 66 have been officially acknowledged.
One thing else...to the best of my recollection, any of these "miracle workers" were extremely humble people who rejected ANY credit for what God was able to do through them. For example, Brother Andre was repeatedly queried by the hierarchy of his religious order...each and every time he denied all credit, attributing any of the cures to the intercession of St. Joseph to God. Padre Pio, after receiving the stigmata, asked God to take it away, not because of the pain involved, but because he did not want to be the center of attention. St. Bernadette (Lourdes) lived the balance of her life in seclusion in a convent after the apparations at Lourdes. As did Lucia dos Santos, of Fatima fame. Quite a contrast between their activities and some charlatans like Benny Hinn, Robert Tipton, and Victor Wierwille.
One other thing: this is not a Catholic thing or a Protestant thing. I am not for a second saying that miracles only happen within the Catholic Church. I just relate those because that is what I am familiar with. I am confident that genuine miracles also happen within the Protestant denominations as well.
As to differences between signs, miracles, and wonders. Its been a long time since I've done a word study on those words, but a quick look at Strong's (via the Blue Letter Bible) shows that there's not really much difference in the meaning of the words. (One of the words in the two verses where all three are used together means power, and the other two mean miracle, wonder, sign, etc.) Perhaps somebody more familiar with the expressions could field that part of your question.
How about coming back to life in the hospital morgue after being declared dead from cancer?
The lady I knew said that while she was dead...she had a meeting with a delegation of beings...she called them *the board*
According to her....not only was it decided that she would be sent back....but they gave her a diet to follow to cure the cancer when she returned as well.
When she came back she found that she had been placed in the morgue, and ...the only thing that she could move was her big toe....so she scratched the underside of the sheet she was covered with untill someone took notice.
She then beat the cancer and lived for many decades.
I asked friends after her 2nd death (when she was in her 80s) if they could remember any of the ingrediants of the diet.....and was told that they were unsure but seemed to remember that blue berries played a big part....
Low and behold a few weeks later scientists make the starteling announcement that wild blue berries do indeed have an astonishing amounbt of antioxidant in them....
How would this gal have know this almost 40 years ago when she utilized them in her recovery or her family members and minister know at the time of relating the information to me?
I know that I had difficulty ( I flat out couldn`t believe it lol) with this account when it was first related because it didn`t fit with my understanding aquired in twi....maybe it will be unaceptable to some because it doesn`t follow twi formula for believing or that the dead being not alive....but it happened and there are many unimpeachable witnesses ...her ministers, her now grown children.....she herself was an outstanding christian of strength and character.
I don`t know why we don`t hear of more .... or why my friend was sent back....maybe we just cannort acceprt them if they don`t happen according to thr rules we learned to expect from twi.
In this case it doesn`t seem to have much to do with individual believing or prayers though.
I am so not interested in twi definition of anything.
However, I am really curious in miracles that are modern day; i.e., happened to you or to someone you know, etc.
I am just seeking knowledge on how much is available to us today. I appreciate the word study and need to look into it myself, but I still am interested in experiences. (Look how far I've come....)
Oh, I take Blueberry Magic btw. Order it from Herbasway. Perhaps I am getting miracles and don't even know it!
My birth mom had surgery for mouth/throat cancer last year, followed up by radiation. A few months later tests revealed the cancer was back and had spread into her voicebox and abdomen area. She was scheduled for yet another surgery. I got everyone I know praying for her, but the outlook was grim.
I talked to my sister who lives near her and it seems when they got Mom onto the table and opened her up, all they found was infection ... no cancer there. They cleaned out the infection and today she's healing nicely.
I had someone ask me to day if it's alright to pray for Hurricane Rita to go somewhere else because, after all, if we pray for it to go elsewhere, then that means someone else could get hurt.
We could, of course, move out of hurricane paths. But, to where? There's tornadoes and blizzards and mudslides and earthquakes, etc.
I guess we just don't always know what we should pray for. Duh.
CM, I'll spare you the scriptural references, but all miracles & wonders are signs. A sign points to something, tells you something. For instance "that they might know that thou art the Lord".
I have observed that when people receive healing in a ministering situation, they often feel 'noticed' and loved personally by God. The specific revelations declared are a sign that God cares about and loves them. And implies He is able to overcome their problem at their point of need.
The specific revelations declared are a sign that God cares about and loves them.
Evan, this is where I can't answer a question for a relative. If God does such caring loving things for some, why not others?
She's had the question for 13 years that I know of and of course while in twi I certainly didn't have the answers. I've no more now. She watched her son in law die at 35 and two of her step sons die young as well, all this within 7 years. All good men that believed God cared about and loved them.
So, your question is quite well received. This is a main reason I started this thread. Is there something we are missing as to the why and when of miracles?
My daughter actually said the other day that perhaps we each have our quota of miracles at birth. I thought that was ridiculous, but if it made her feel better--who am I to say?
We know the devil causes death (at least I am assuming we know that). That in itself comforts me when I go through something so awful. To me it is like hand-to-hand combat with the enemy. I watched my brother die last week even though I prayed for a miracle. But, at least I didn't blame God. Lord help anyone who tells me that was God's will. I went to a funeral last month for my next door neighbors who lost their 15 year old daughter in a boat accident. It took us 2 hours to make it through the line to talk with her parents. That's how well loved she and they are. Very Christian people. I heard over and over again how she's in a better place now and all I could think was why don't we all just shoot ourselves and go there too if it's true?
I know we don't know everything, but we do know somethings and we need to share what we know, especially about death and God's comfort.
That's why I pointed out that these things are signs. If the purpose of healings, for instance, were to make us well, then why are christians still dying? And why are some never healed, even those who "believe in it"? Why did Jesus walk by the lame man so many times, but Peter & John picked him up by the hand and he went off walking and leaping?
I think part of the answer is that these things are signs. They are at God's discretion and for His reasons, not ours. But it is helpful to ask, "wow, why did that happen, here, now?" I think there is a meaning to be found, a message god is giving.
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markomalley
I don't know...I hear of miracles happening on a regular basis. Not literally constantly, but its not like they've disappeared off the face of the earth.
Maybe you could be more specific in what you're talking about here? Are you referring to spectacular phenomenal miracles (a la the tongues of fire over the apostles)? or something else?
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irisheyes
No, I'm not talking phenominal. Even though most miracles must be in that category. I'm wondering about "everyday" kind of stuff like people being healed. Of course, there have been things in my life that I refuse to accept as "coincidence", but someone of different beliefs would easily say I couldn't prove these were miracles. I'm talking about stuff that you can't mistake for something like coincidence. Things spontaeous, unexplainable, and spiritual in nature; i.e., the whole church prayed for so and so and he got up off his death bed and is fine now. Or an angel appearing and rescuing someone off the side of a cliff. I mean what is the difference between signs, miracles and wonders? Is there a difference? Why do some people get them and not others? Surely God can intervene when the going gets tough? Or are His hands tied in our time?
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markomalley
OK, here are some examples of miracles in modern times.
. Also see Lourdes, A Medical Perspective
Padre Pio of Pietrelcina
Did any of the things happen at Lourdes, with Brother Andre, or with Padre Pio? I can't say from personal experience...the only one of the three places I've been was to San Giovanni Rotondo...
All I do know is that the Catholic Church is exceedingly careful in acknowledging something as a miracle. The reason for this is that there have been some questionable miracles declared during the middle ages. They do a thorough investigation of any purported miracle now and if there is any possibility of explanation of a natural cause for the phenomenon, it is automatically ruled out as being declared an acknowledged miracle. Thousands upon thousands of people have reported cures from Lourdes. Out of that quantity, only 66 have been officially acknowledged.
One thing else...to the best of my recollection, any of these "miracle workers" were extremely humble people who rejected ANY credit for what God was able to do through them. For example, Brother Andre was repeatedly queried by the hierarchy of his religious order...each and every time he denied all credit, attributing any of the cures to the intercession of St. Joseph to God. Padre Pio, after receiving the stigmata, asked God to take it away, not because of the pain involved, but because he did not want to be the center of attention. St. Bernadette (Lourdes) lived the balance of her life in seclusion in a convent after the apparations at Lourdes. As did Lucia dos Santos, of Fatima fame. Quite a contrast between their activities and some charlatans like Benny Hinn, Robert Tipton, and Victor Wierwille.
One other thing: this is not a Catholic thing or a Protestant thing. I am not for a second saying that miracles only happen within the Catholic Church. I just relate those because that is what I am familiar with. I am confident that genuine miracles also happen within the Protestant denominations as well.
As to differences between signs, miracles, and wonders. Its been a long time since I've done a word study on those words, but a quick look at Strong's (via the Blue Letter Bible) shows that there's not really much difference in the meaning of the words. (One of the words in the two verses where all three are used together means power, and the other two mean miracle, wonder, sign, etc.) Perhaps somebody more familiar with the expressions could field that part of your question.
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rascal
I hear of miracles....
How about coming back to life in the hospital morgue after being declared dead from cancer?
The lady I knew said that while she was dead...she had a meeting with a delegation of beings...she called them *the board*
According to her....not only was it decided that she would be sent back....but they gave her a diet to follow to cure the cancer when she returned as well.
When she came back she found that she had been placed in the morgue, and ...the only thing that she could move was her big toe....so she scratched the underside of the sheet she was covered with untill someone took notice.
She then beat the cancer and lived for many decades.
I asked friends after her 2nd death (when she was in her 80s) if they could remember any of the ingrediants of the diet.....and was told that they were unsure but seemed to remember that blue berries played a big part....
Low and behold a few weeks later scientists make the starteling announcement that wild blue berries do indeed have an astonishing amounbt of antioxidant in them....
How would this gal have know this almost 40 years ago when she utilized them in her recovery or her family members and minister know at the time of relating the information to me?
I know that I had difficulty ( I flat out couldn`t believe it lol) with this account when it was first related because it didn`t fit with my understanding aquired in twi....maybe it will be unaceptable to some because it doesn`t follow twi formula for believing or that the dead being not alive....but it happened and there are many unimpeachable witnesses ...her ministers, her now grown children.....she herself was an outstanding christian of strength and character.
I don`t know why we don`t hear of more .... or why my friend was sent back....maybe we just cannort acceprt them if they don`t happen according to thr rules we learned to expect from twi.
In this case it doesn`t seem to have much to do with individual believing or prayers though.
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irisheyes
Thank you both SO MUCH!
I am so not interested in twi definition of anything.
However, I am really curious in miracles that are modern day; i.e., happened to you or to someone you know, etc.
I am just seeking knowledge on how much is available to us today. I appreciate the word study and need to look into it myself, but I still am interested in experiences. (Look how far I've come....)
Oh, I take Blueberry Magic btw. Order it from Herbasway. Perhaps I am getting miracles and don't even know it!
IE
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sirguessalot
imo..."signs, miracles, and wonders" are always already everywhere
sometimes i wonder if a generation is not "foolish" for seeking miracles
but "foolish" for seeking miracles
(and by "foolish," i don't think "damn ignorant retch of a fool,"
but rather "silly" or "goofy" which is pretty immediately and easily forgiveable...lol)
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BikerBabe
My birth mom had surgery for mouth/throat cancer last year, followed up by radiation. A few months later tests revealed the cancer was back and had spread into her voicebox and abdomen area. She was scheduled for yet another surgery. I got everyone I know praying for her, but the outlook was grim.
I talked to my sister who lives near her and it seems when they got Mom onto the table and opened her up, all they found was infection ... no cancer there. They cleaned out the infection and today she's healing nicely.
I feel this is a miracle.
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irisheyes
BB: Do you think prayer can bring miracles?
Sir: I liked your answer. However, different set of fools we are. Didn't signs follow the first century believers?
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sirguessalot
according to the book, they did
followed them everywhere
i'll say it this way:
every moment is pregnant with amazing possibility
this has been true from the beginning
signs are everywhere
evidence of amazing things in plain sight
of course, harvesting that possibility is another thing
touching it, tasting it, etc...
making miracles happen...
experiencing truly wonderous things
of course, the patience of the saints had a lot to do with it
the ability to truly stop first
and live more non-reactively
which gave them a better view
i think that maybe the first century believers were finally able to open up their eyes as to what is already always there
and then of course, everyone else saw signs when they came through town
because the believers were able to "pick them up" and show them, in a sense
or just point at them, and whatnot
not to devalue the nature of supranormal phenom...
(god knows i've seen my share)
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CM
wasn't looking for miracles or signs or wonders
was wondering and signs were there which is a miracle
i still wonder about some signs and miracles...
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irisheyes
Well Todd, put up or shut up. If you've seen them, 'fess up!
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BikerBabe
Yes, I sure do. I've had many others happen thru my life other than this one. This is by far the 'biggest' one though.
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irisheyes
And, CM, I wonder about you . . . .
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irisheyes
BB: Interesting.
I had someone ask me to day if it's alright to pray for Hurricane Rita to go somewhere else because, after all, if we pray for it to go elsewhere, then that means someone else could get hurt.
We could, of course, move out of hurricane paths. But, to where? There's tornadoes and blizzards and mudslides and earthquakes, etc.
I guess we just don't always know what we should pray for. Duh.
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sirguessalot
yeah…right
most times it'll get ya buried in a pile of rocks
(although most hypertextually, in this case) hehe
and i don’t think i can spare the energy right now
but I’ll say this
signs are everywhere
of all kinds of things
a dream
the weather
birds and bees
someone's breath
the stars
the news
once a layer of that mystery is solved
it is no longer a mystery
but a wonder, i suppose
always with a better mystery
thank god
i mean
can you imagine what one culture might call the secrets of another
when first introduced to them?
like seeing a gun for the first time
in an evolutionary sense
and wonders and miracles
like coincidences
happy accidents
luck
fortune
out of nowhere something good happens
woo hoo
that kinda thing
or something new that has never been seen before
something simply unexplainable
the first wheels?
the first man on the moon?
or something beautiful
a building
a book
a baby
or tragic
times of great change in history
peace agreements
even hellish wars
great enlightenments
yesterday's miracles are often today's everyday news
but the miracle of plastic? wow
and photography?
the cutting edge
head of christ
manifest face
new kid on the block
son of everything
ya know?
for this to be manifest
causes creativity and innovation
etc...
and for it to be recorded that such things follow some new movement of a school of thought....
says a lot. in its historical context
they learned and taught radically new things
(which are now radically old)
and retaught radically old things
(which must have seemed radically new too)
no wonder they argued and got their asses kicked a lot
even as they stirred people to come to together in new ways
no one was in control of "it" either, it seemed
those waves
heck
if you could bring peace to any place of contention
and hold it for years...
wouldn't that be a miracle?
or sign of something wonderful?
even if you dont know what that may be?
one can classify and render official whatever they wish
but that does not change what happened
especially to those who actually touched it when it happened
nor does it put some sort of gag and cuffs on God for 2000 years
as if...
-->
but of the fun and flashy woo woo stuff that is usually associated with those 3 magical words....
yeah, therz plenty of that going around too
all the time
and its not always pretty
or public information
which is hard
and then theres the sticks and stones again
been there
done that too
but to say it straight as i can...
we already know the truth of it
but it hasnt set us free
because what usually keeps people from miracles is "the devil," in whatever sense
he can take any form "he" wants, right?
any name, any face, any place
to be free of that would be a miracle too, imo
like i said
i think they already abound
:)-->
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irisheyes
dSir,
If I must say, you don't sound short of time to me!
Are you a rapper? All you'd need is a little more rhyme (and perhaps some reason).
I have only one little thing to add;
all the times we don't know of:
the time I didn't actually drown
the time I didn't take that extra pill down
the time I didn't leave on time
the time I actually listened to mother mine
the time I decided to stay in the right lane
the time I missed the silly plane
the time I lost my only watch
the time I couldn't make the march
the time I decided to make it safe
the time I decided to make an escape . . . .
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TheEvan
CM, I'll spare you the scriptural references, but all miracles & wonders are signs. A sign points to something, tells you something. For instance "that they might know that thou art the Lord".
I have observed that when people receive healing in a ministering situation, they often feel 'noticed' and loved personally by God. The specific revelations declared are a sign that God cares about and loves them. And implies He is able to overcome their problem at their point of need.
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CM
sorry TheEvan, but i can't and will not put God, signs miracles wonders or anything like this in a box of an explanation again.....
EVER.
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Shellon
Evan, this is where I can't answer a question for a relative. If God does such caring loving things for some, why not others?
She's had the question for 13 years that I know of and of course while in twi I certainly didn't have the answers. I've no more now. She watched her son in law die at 35 and two of her step sons die young as well, all this within 7 years. All good men that believed God cared about and loved them.
But murderers, rapists, etc. nope.
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CM
sorry to be short with you TheEvan but i know what i've seen and i know what i don't know
i've seen signs miracles and wonders that do not fit the explanation in your hand.
sure everyone wants the healings, me too
there's more then this...much more
and i can't explain it
and i won't tell,
except to those who know already
love always
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irisheyes
Shell,
As we all know
--> 
-->
God is no respector of persons,right?
So, your question is quite well received. This is a main reason I started this thread. Is there something we are missing as to the why and when of miracles?
My daughter actually said the other day that perhaps we each have our quota of miracles at birth. I thought that was ridiculous, but if it made her feel better--who am I to say?
We know the devil causes death (at least I am assuming we know that). That in itself comforts me when I go through something so awful. To me it is like hand-to-hand combat with the enemy. I watched my brother die last week even though I prayed for a miracle. But, at least I didn't blame God. Lord help anyone who tells me that was God's will. I went to a funeral last month for my next door neighbors who lost their 15 year old daughter in a boat accident. It took us 2 hours to make it through the line to talk with her parents. That's how well loved she and they are. Very Christian people. I heard over and over again how she's in a better place now and all I could think was why don't we all just shoot ourselves and go there too if it's true?
I know we don't know everything, but we do know somethings and we need to share what we know, especially about death and God's comfort.
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TheEvan
Shell, that is a question for the ages, isn't it?
That's why I pointed out that these things are signs. If the purpose of healings, for instance, were to make us well, then why are christians still dying? And why are some never healed, even those who "believe in it"? Why did Jesus walk by the lame man so many times, but Peter & John picked him up by the hand and he went off walking and leaping?
I think part of the answer is that these things are signs. They are at God's discretion and for His reasons, not ours. But it is helpful to ask, "wow, why did that happen, here, now?" I think there is a meaning to be found, a message god is giving.
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Shellon
Understood, ok
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sirguessalot
lol. Irisheyes. keep in mind...i wrote that very fast
which sometimes is hard to tell, in this environment
and the time/energy i referred to was what i would most likely have to spend explaining myself
(which, who wouldn't love to try and do, in a more wide open space)
so i am content for now to sing a song
sow hope in things
if i can
truth is, there is a loose metre of sorts to it
much like rap, or a lullaby
like a word of prophecy
in a sense
in fact, there is an art form of "spoken word" sessions in the rap world
part spontaeneous
but from deep down
but only the gist of something else
really
kinda like beat poetry
or something
or a ranting and raving preacher on a roll
quite an ordinary level of play of human speech
if no one takes it too seriously
as for having more reason?
go ahead. ask me a reason for anything i said
see what happens
i think i can interpret most of it
cuz i probably have reasons for every single thing i wrote
though i reserve the right to paraphrase
to keep me from having to sit here all day
i think that is an awesome "one little addition"
amazing
true
lovely
and whatnot
amen
amen
and thank you for it
a sign of something wonderful in you
imo
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