Originally posted by outofdafog: Is it true, that King James "translators" perhaps translated according to the belief of King James? Serious question.
Offhand I don't know about the King James translators, but if such was a practice with them, it was done long before them. Even prior to Constantine the Great. The various Christian movements had their own gospels or gospel versions, their own writings which they loved, which they interpreted and translated according to their outlook.
Out of da fog..I have never made myself out to be a 'Bible caped crusader' or anything else except a Bible believer..maybe you have an inferiority complex !!
As far as 'homos' is concerned..Does not even nature itself tell us sticking things in all the wrong places isn't NATURAL !!
Dan..stop trying to change the truth of God into a lie !!
One more point..In Jesus eyes which is worse than the other..being too 'over zealous' at times or simply doing nothing with whatever 'talent' one has ??
Out of da fog..I have never made myself out to be a 'Bible caped crusader' or anything else except a Bible believer..maybe you have an inferiority complex !!
As far as 'homos' is concerned..Does not even nature itself tell us sticking things in all the wrong places isn't NATURAL !!
I am thinking that perhaps Allan, you have a superiority complex
As far as sticking things goes....Hmmm.......start with your nose out of people's personal business......
One more point..In Jesus eyes which is worse than the other..being too 'over zealous' at times or simply doing nothing with whatever 'talent' one has ??
I don't think he'd be too distracted by forms of behavior Allen, godly or not. He'd consider the heart, don't you think?
Peter was zealous, but then so was Judas Iscariot, to name two. Do you think he judged them as equals?
Homosexuality is mentioned in God's word, but if you (2 James) want, just show her the spiritual deliverance, how to get born again, what righteousness is, no condemnation, Romans 8, lots of good stuff. Being a lesbian doesn't stop people from getting born again. Let God minister to that part of her heart.
Ps --- my sister is a lesbian, and a guy I work with is homosexual (sorry -- I won't call them *gay*).
I've had *religious* discussions with both, and though I don't like the path they have taken, I don't judge them for it either. And we all had a good time discussing the Word, with no hurt feelings on either side. Whether it is homosexuality, lying, stealing, drunkeness, over indulgence in anything, or whatever, it is all sin and that is what I think on when talking with them.
In other words -- what they are doing is wrong (imo), but I'm surely doing things in my own life that God frowns on as well. So the short of the long of this is -- we all make mistakes, none of us are perfect, and a willingnes to discuss things in an attempt to rectify a*short-coming* in our lives is never a bad thing. :)
In other words -- what they are doing is wrong (imo), but I'm surely doing things in my own life that God frowns on as well. So the short of the long of this is -- we all make mistakes, none of us are perfect, and a willingnes to discuss things in an attempt to rectify a*short-coming* in our lives is never a bad thing. :)
David
Yet homosexuals can't seem to turn themselves into heterosexuals, no matter how sincere the Christianity of the homosexual's belief...even if they remain celibate for life( which seems to be the expectation of the Evangelical church with their do over groups, because they aren't getting homosexuals to turn into heterosexuals, either. They are getting Bi's to stick with the opposite sex.
Lesbians and gays still have sexual feelings and thoughts that are not hetero. So every day, every hour, they are 'doing wrong' according to some beliefs. Inside they are wrong, and always will be. They will never be as good as the hetero believer. The 'we all make mistakes stuff' just isn't the same. Homosexuality is not a matter of oops I made a mistake thinking about sex with same sex, sorry. It is a matter of who a person finds sexually attractive. Even if there is tremendous strentgh of 'renewed mind', people still find some people attractive and others not attractive. The mind need not even be involved(do I need to get more graphic? We are all adults who've had sex here.) The heart goes pitty pat etc.
No wonder so many homosexuals are not or do not remain Bible Believing Christians. If it is such an evil thing, then why aren't more Christian homosexuals turned into heterosexuals with their sincere desire to change??
What if your doctrine is false( not all Christians hold it), and you are expecting people to change something that they have no hope of changing?Like eye color, or height? Remeber in the OT when it was bad to be left handed? We all think that is crazy, now days. Then wouldn't your doctrine of no deliverance be doing that person great harm? Isn't that just cruel?
Do you ever think it might be better to err on the side of kindness? Can you be absolutely sure of your doctrine? Especially when being wrong can cause much harm to another.
If there is so much deliverance, then why aren't we seeing and hearing about it?? Why are the reparative groups now preaching celebacy as the key to a homosexual Christians walk? Why are their success( as in causing someone to switch, not the success of making people celibate) rates so abysmal?
Who has ever been successful at making themselves 'find' some one sexually attractive(because say, they would be a good provider or whatever, or are a real nice guy, or Christian girls marry guys) when really they don't do it for you at all? Gritting your teeth and thinking of England does not a heterosexual make. It is just a lesbian woman forcing herself into a man's bed because someone told her she should.
I say yuck to that! I would hate being forced into bed with a woman, because, gee whiz, I'm not a lesbian.
PS--That is not really directed at you David. Your quote is a common thought on this subject.
Dan..stop trying to change the truth of God into a lie !!
One more point..In Jesus eyes which is worse than the other..being too 'over zealous' at times or simply doing nothing with whatever 'talent' one has ??
One would think people reading writings attributed to the figure of "Paul", after 25, 30, and 40 some odd years, would actually know the "voice" of their subject by now, well enough to be able to intuitively recognize and distinguish it from a number of other "voices" occurring in the same texts.
It's not all that difficult if assuming that a human being (or two or three) - having unique characteristics of style and personality -even claiming to be "god-inspired" at that- are behind the words one reads on a page. "Talent" has little to do with it.
The Monkees may sound like the Beatles, but that doesn't make them the Beatles.
I don't need that much "talent" to tell them apart.
I work with two gay men, one is a Christian and the other hates God because he blames God for making him the way he did and then making/allowing it to be such a reprehensible lifestyle.
My take on this is, regardless of whether we think it's right or wrong, it's not our place to pass judgment on ANYONE.
Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Luk 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
1Cr 4:3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
1Cr 10:29 Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another [man's] conscience?
Based on my beliefs, I have enough sin in my life - enough beams in my eye - that the last thing I should be doing is trying to get that darn splinter out of my neighbor's eye. :ph34r: It's the GOODNESS of God that leads men to salvation - not the JUDGMENT. ;)
The only thing I could add to this.. it takes real character to not only just not to pluck out your neighbor's eye for them, just because YOU think it may cause him to sin.. but to acknowledge the real gold that's in him or her.
But that's too hard to do if you already have all of the answers.
There's REAL GOLD in some people?? Where??? Do you have to cut them open to get it??? Come on, Man, Spill the beans!!!
:P :P :P
Awww, Ham, I know what you mean! If I was still TWIt brained I'd be missing out on two of the greatest friends I've had in a very long time. One of them even picked up my hurricane wood, cut the wood to fit my windows and delivered it to my house. I can't think of one TWIt who would have done that for me during my last year in TWI...... Life is so much nicer without the burden of having to judge everyone you meet and decide whether they are "worthy" of your attention.
Isn't it ironic that the number one sex fantasy for men is two women?
I've heard tell that the number one fantasy for women is two men: one to do the cooking and one to do the cleaning.
According to Kinsey - the sex researcher - He didn't classify people as homo or hetero sexual. He said there were homosexual acts and heterosextual acts [and I guess - monosexual acts ]. What percentage of each people enjoy varies among people and for some people varies over time.
I find it amusing that often people who don't want any limitations put on what they can do with their guns are happy to tell others what they should or shouldn't do in bed with a consenting adult.
There's REAL GOLD in some people?? Where??? Do you have to cut them open to get it???
Its in the teeth Belle..give em enough JackD til they get woozy then using a pair of pliers .......well nevermind.....
anyway
The longer i have been out the more I have associated with people that I would never have associated with in TWI---there IS real gold in some people (and not just in the teeth), I know many people that are more'christian' than the vocal (clanging cymbal) christians who know everything about everything ( or so they have deluded themselves into thinking)
STD's are a result of multiple partners without condoms and health tests. STD's don't care what your sexual orientation is! A lesbian coupkle who is in a monogamous sexual realtionship faces no more risk than I do, being in a faithful marriage.
In other words -- what they are doing is wrong (imo), but I'm surely doing things in my own life that God frowns on as well. So the short of the long of this is -- we all make mistakes, none of us are perfect, and a willingnes to discuss things in an attempt to rectify a*short-coming* in our lives is never a bad thing. :)
David
Bramble -- let me re-iterate what I said, and this time I will bold words so that you can see my original intent.
"In other words -- what they are doing is wrong (imo), but I'm surely doing things in my own life that God frowns on as well. So the short of the long of this is -- we all make mistakes, none of us are perfect, and a willingnes to discuss things in an attempt to rectify a*short-coming* in our lives is never a bad thing."
In case you missed it the first time, I was including myself in the criticism, and not directing it towards others only.
PS--That is not really directed at you David. Your quote is a common thought on this subject.
I knew you'd understand.
They will never be as good as the hetero believer.
I'm sure for you, David, you do see yourself as just human like them, a sinner.
As far as never being as good as the heterosexual believer:
Are homosexual Christians on equal footing with heterosexual Christians? Is that really the bulk of Christianity's view? I don't think so. Homosexual Christians might be equal to heterosexual Christians, in God's eyes,( and David's) but not in many people's eyes. As long as they are homosexual--and I've seen no evidence that adult people can truly change this orientation--they are not quite equal in the eyes of most Christian churches.
Aren't homosexual Christians treated differently than other ordinary sinners? They can't be ordained in many churches, can't marry their partners, (oops, I forgot, they aren't supposed to have partners, they are supposed to be alone unless they can turn into heterosexuals ).
If it were truly about all men being equally sinful, sin is sin etc, then why can't a sinful but devout homosexual be a minister in many churches? Without covering or don't ask don't tell. The heterosexual ministers are sinners, also, right? But apparantly their sins aren't as bad, because they can be ministers. What churches will allow homosexual ministers or marrages. All the people are sinners, afer all.?Few-- liberal/mainstream denominations, if at all.
Some sins must be worse than others. Or aren't covered by the cross of Christ or something. For most people, their sins are between them and their god. But if you are a Homosexual Christian, aren't there more people involved? People who are outraged and disaproving even though the homosexual has never done one thing to hurt that person.
Seems like a very cruel and ugly doctrine to me. I guess I just don't see the love there, or anything positive for the person who actually is a homosexual, in that particular doctrine. Seems like a doctrine that builds high walls between those that are and those that aren't. Is it positive to remain celibate your entire adult life, not because that's what you desire, but because you are a homosexual and that's how to please your God and fellow Christians?
Hmmm. It seems like an impossible performance hoop and a blot on the claim that the Biblical God is a loving God. IMO. Why would a loving Father set a hoop so high his child can't jump it, demand they jump it...see them fail. Live alone, no loving spouse, no sexual fulfillment...I don't call that love. But I have seen love redefined before...You're sinful, lesbian, change!...Lesbian tries but can't really change...you're sinful, lesbian, Change!...ugly circle
Homosexuals can have loving realtionships/marriages, like heterosexuals. It is not all about cruising gay bars and getting diseases. I'm glad I don't have some kind of Bible doctrine system where it has to be that interpretation, or the whole Bible falls apart or something. Makes me feel bad for the homosexuals who come into contact with that type of religion.
Though I can kind of see it from my childhood religion's point of view. If you suffer enough in this life, then your stint in purgatory might be shorter. Being celibate si good better than being married(or it was in the church of my childhood.)
And the man whom you STILL accept as having spoken the *truth* from his mouth....he wasn`t an abomination, a perversion when he was drugging and raping our sisters????
And his HAND PICKED successor...gee whizz...was he not a perversion for regularly DEMANDING to be sexually fullfilled by TWO young corpes women at the same time?????
Common allan just LOOK at who the hypocrits and sinners WE were willing to trust..
Both of these men marked and avoided unwilling young women from the ministry when denied....cutting them off from friends and family...and what they understood to be the word and body of christ.....crushing them as thoroughly as possible.
You have no problems accepting *truth* from the lips of these men who blashpemed God ...destroyed those to whom they were given to minister.... utilizing their position of power and authority in God to require that which wasn`t theres???
You have no problem believing what proceeded out of their lips because THEIR particular sins in your opinion weren`t as *spiritual*????
I guess that their sin simply wasn`t as heinous because they were hetero.... <_<
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TheInvisibleDan
Offhand I don't know about the King James translators, but if such was a practice with them, it was done long before them. Even prior to Constantine the Great. The various Christian movements had their own gospels or gospel versions, their own writings which they loved, which they interpreted and translated according to their outlook.
Danny
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Allan
Out of da fog..I have never made myself out to be a 'Bible caped crusader' or anything else except a Bible believer..maybe you have an inferiority complex !!
As far as 'homos' is concerned..Does not even nature itself tell us sticking things in all the wrong places isn't NATURAL !!
Dan..stop trying to change the truth of God into a lie !!
One more point..In Jesus eyes which is worse than the other..being too 'over zealous' at times or simply doing nothing with whatever 'talent' one has ??
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outofdafog
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satori001
Peter was zealous, but then so was Judas Iscariot, to name two. Do you think he judged them as equals?
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Mod Kirk
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Akarizmatik1
"Can I get an "AMEN!" from the mid-life singles corner? lol"
I am in total agreement aka "AMEN"
AND
" How I envy you, as I inhabit a state I never personally chose...celibacy (lol) - though I sincerely hope its temporary"
Question?
Is it wrong to pray for a lover? LOL...No, I mean, to pray For a lover, lol lol
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satori001
Moddishwasher,
What dilemma, true or false, do you think you see?
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dmiller
posted by Johniam:
Amen. I agree 100%. :)
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dmiller
Ps --- my sister is a lesbian, and a guy I work with is homosexual (sorry -- I won't call them *gay*).
I've had *religious* discussions with both, and though I don't like the path they have taken, I don't judge them for it either. And we all had a good time discussing the Word, with no hurt feelings on either side. Whether it is homosexuality, lying, stealing, drunkeness, over indulgence in anything, or whatever, it is all sin and that is what I think on when talking with them.
In other words -- what they are doing is wrong (imo), but I'm surely doing things in my own life that God frowns on as well. So the short of the long of this is -- we all make mistakes, none of us are perfect, and a willingnes to discuss things in an attempt to rectify a*short-coming* in our lives is never a bad thing. :)
David
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Bramble
Yet homosexuals can't seem to turn themselves into heterosexuals, no matter how sincere the Christianity of the homosexual's belief...even if they remain celibate for life( which seems to be the expectation of the Evangelical church with their do over groups, because they aren't getting homosexuals to turn into heterosexuals, either. They are getting Bi's to stick with the opposite sex.
Lesbians and gays still have sexual feelings and thoughts that are not hetero. So every day, every hour, they are 'doing wrong' according to some beliefs. Inside they are wrong, and always will be. They will never be as good as the hetero believer. The 'we all make mistakes stuff' just isn't the same. Homosexuality is not a matter of oops I made a mistake thinking about sex with same sex, sorry. It is a matter of who a person finds sexually attractive. Even if there is tremendous strentgh of 'renewed mind', people still find some people attractive and others not attractive. The mind need not even be involved(do I need to get more graphic? We are all adults who've had sex here.) The heart goes pitty pat etc.
No wonder so many homosexuals are not or do not remain Bible Believing Christians. If it is such an evil thing, then why aren't more Christian homosexuals turned into heterosexuals with their sincere desire to change??
What if your doctrine is false( not all Christians hold it), and you are expecting people to change something that they have no hope of changing?Like eye color, or height? Remeber in the OT when it was bad to be left handed? We all think that is crazy, now days. Then wouldn't your doctrine of no deliverance be doing that person great harm? Isn't that just cruel?
Do you ever think it might be better to err on the side of kindness? Can you be absolutely sure of your doctrine? Especially when being wrong can cause much harm to another.
If there is so much deliverance, then why aren't we seeing and hearing about it?? Why are the reparative groups now preaching celebacy as the key to a homosexual Christians walk? Why are their success( as in causing someone to switch, not the success of making people celibate) rates so abysmal?
Who has ever been successful at making themselves 'find' some one sexually attractive(because say, they would be a good provider or whatever, or are a real nice guy, or Christian girls marry guys) when really they don't do it for you at all? Gritting your teeth and thinking of England does not a heterosexual make. It is just a lesbian woman forcing herself into a man's bed because someone told her she should.
I say yuck to that! I would hate being forced into bed with a woman, because, gee whiz, I'm not a lesbian.
PS--That is not really directed at you David. Your quote is a common thought on this subject.
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TheInvisibleDan
One would think people reading writings attributed to the figure of "Paul", after 25, 30, and 40 some odd years, would actually know the "voice" of their subject by now, well enough to be able to intuitively recognize and distinguish it from a number of other "voices" occurring in the same texts.
It's not all that difficult if assuming that a human being (or two or three) - having unique characteristics of style and personality -even claiming to be "god-inspired" at that- are behind the words one reads on a page. "Talent" has little to do with it.
The Monkees may sound like the Beatles, but that doesn't make them the Beatles.
I don't need that much "talent" to tell them apart.
Nor for "Paul" and his imitators.
Danny
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Belle
I work with two gay men, one is a Christian and the other hates God because he blames God for making him the way he did and then making/allowing it to be such a reprehensible lifestyle.
My take on this is, regardless of whether we think it's right or wrong, it's not our place to pass judgment on ANYONE.
Based on my beliefs, I have enough sin in my life - enough beams in my eye - that the last thing I should be doing is trying to get that darn splinter out of my neighbor's eye. :ph34r: It's the GOODNESS of God that leads men to salvation - not the JUDGMENT. ;)
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Ham
The only thing I could add to this.. it takes real character to not only just not to pluck out your neighbor's eye for them, just because YOU think it may cause him to sin.. but to acknowledge the real gold that's in him or her.
But that's too hard to do if you already have all of the answers.
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Belle
There's REAL GOLD in some people?? Where??? Do you have to cut them open to get it??? Come on, Man, Spill the beans!!!
:P :P :P
Awww, Ham, I know what you mean! If I was still TWIt brained I'd be missing out on two of the greatest friends I've had in a very long time. One of them even picked up my hurricane wood, cut the wood to fit my windows and delivered it to my house. I can't think of one TWIt who would have done that for me during my last year in TWI...... Life is so much nicer without the burden of having to judge everyone you meet and decide whether they are "worthy" of your attention.
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Ham
Belle, I've seen enough gold in "some of us" here to last me a lifetime!
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My3Cents
I've heard tell that the number one fantasy for women is two men: one to do the cooking and one to do the cleaning.
According to Kinsey - the sex researcher - He didn't classify people as homo or hetero sexual. He said there were homosexual acts and heterosextual acts [and I guess - monosexual acts
]. What percentage of each people enjoy varies among people and for some people varies over time.
I find it amusing that often people who don't want any limitations put on what they can do with their guns are happy to tell others what they should or shouldn't do in bed with a consenting adult.
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mstar1
Its in the teeth Belle..give em enough JackD til they get woozy then using a pair of pliers .......well nevermind.....
anyway
The longer i have been out the more I have associated with people that I would never have associated with in TWI---there IS real gold in some people (and not just in the teeth), I know many people that are more'christian' than the vocal (clanging cymbal) christians who know everything about everything ( or so they have deluded themselves into thinking)
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def59
Lesbians face many health hazards due to their lifestyle choices. STDs come to mind. Check out some women's health web sites and see for yourself.
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outofdafog
Oh gosh def...do we have to go over this again.
everybody can get a disease from sex.....herpes, syphliss, AIDS, gonorrhea, etc etc.
Your reasoning is not reasonable. :o
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Bramble
STD's are a result of multiple partners without condoms and health tests. STD's don't care what your sexual orientation is! A lesbian coupkle who is in a monogamous sexual realtionship faces no more risk than I do, being in a faithful marriage.
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dmiller
"In other words -- what they are doing is wrong (imo), but I'm surely doing things in my own life that God frowns on as well. So the short of the long of this is -- we all make mistakes, none of us are perfect, and a willingnes to discuss things in an attempt to rectify a*short-coming* in our lives is never a bad thing."
In case you missed it the first time, I was including myself in the criticism, and not directing it towards others only.
I knew you'd understand.
I fail to understand this statement.
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Bramble
I'm sure for you, David, you do see yourself as just human like them, a sinner.
As far as never being as good as the heterosexual believer:
Are homosexual Christians on equal footing with heterosexual Christians? Is that really the bulk of Christianity's view? I don't think so. Homosexual Christians might be equal to heterosexual Christians, in God's eyes,( and David's) but not in many people's eyes. As long as they are homosexual--and I've seen no evidence that adult people can truly change this orientation--they are not quite equal in the eyes of most Christian churches.
Aren't homosexual Christians treated differently than other ordinary sinners? They can't be ordained in many churches, can't marry their partners, (oops, I forgot, they aren't supposed to have partners, they are supposed to be alone unless they can turn into heterosexuals ).
If it were truly about all men being equally sinful, sin is sin etc, then why can't a sinful but devout homosexual be a minister in many churches? Without covering or don't ask don't tell. The heterosexual ministers are sinners, also, right? But apparantly their sins aren't as bad, because they can be ministers. What churches will allow homosexual ministers or marrages. All the people are sinners, afer all.?Few-- liberal/mainstream denominations, if at all.
Some sins must be worse than others. Or aren't covered by the cross of Christ or something. For most people, their sins are between them and their god. But if you are a Homosexual Christian, aren't there more people involved? People who are outraged and disaproving even though the homosexual has never done one thing to hurt that person.
Seems like a very cruel and ugly doctrine to me. I guess I just don't see the love there, or anything positive for the person who actually is a homosexual, in that particular doctrine. Seems like a doctrine that builds high walls between those that are and those that aren't. Is it positive to remain celibate your entire adult life, not because that's what you desire, but because you are a homosexual and that's how to please your God and fellow Christians?
Hmmm. It seems like an impossible performance hoop and a blot on the claim that the Biblical God is a loving God. IMO. Why would a loving Father set a hoop so high his child can't jump it, demand they jump it...see them fail. Live alone, no loving spouse, no sexual fulfillment...I don't call that love. But I have seen love redefined before...You're sinful, lesbian, change!...Lesbian tries but can't really change...you're sinful, lesbian, Change!...ugly circle
Homosexuals can have loving realtionships/marriages, like heterosexuals. It is not all about cruising gay bars and getting diseases. I'm glad I don't have some kind of Bible doctrine system where it has to be that interpretation, or the whole Bible falls apart or something. Makes me feel bad for the homosexuals who come into contact with that type of religion.
Though I can kind of see it from my childhood religion's point of view. If you suffer enough in this life, then your stint in purgatory might be shorter. Being celibate si good better than being married(or it was in the church of my childhood.)
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Allan
Why can't homos be in leadership positions in the Church ? Because it's a 'spiritual sin' that's why !!
It is perversion and described as 'burning' (but at the wrong end !) If you know what I mean.
I don't think I would want to receive 'teaching of the Word' from a mans' mouth if I know where that mouths been o.k. !!
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rascal
And the man whom you STILL accept as having spoken the *truth* from his mouth....he wasn`t an abomination, a perversion when he was drugging and raping our sisters????
And his HAND PICKED successor...gee whizz...was he not a perversion for regularly DEMANDING to be sexually fullfilled by TWO young corpes women at the same time?????
Common allan just LOOK at who the hypocrits and sinners WE were willing to trust..
Both of these men marked and avoided unwilling young women from the ministry when denied....cutting them off from friends and family...and what they understood to be the word and body of christ.....crushing them as thoroughly as possible.
You have no problems accepting *truth* from the lips of these men who blashpemed God ...destroyed those to whom they were given to minister.... utilizing their position of power and authority in God to require that which wasn`t theres???
You have no problem believing what proceeded out of their lips because THEIR particular sins in your opinion weren`t as *spiritual*????
I guess that their sin simply wasn`t as heinous because they were hetero.... <_<
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