I just think we should not automatically accept the dogma that homosexuals are born that way. In my opinion, it doesn't fit the facts. If some people have never felt that they had normal heterosexual urges and feelings, then they may feel that they were born different, or born homosexuals. That doesn't axiomatically mean that all homosexuals are born that way and that, therefore, it's a completely natural condition. That's all I'm saying.
There are both spiritual, hereditary, and natural causes that affect people in different degrees. There's not a simple one size fits all explanation. It is possible that both the gay rights movement's assertion that homosexuality is an inherent natural state, and the biblical position that it's an abomination are both simplistic and both inadequate to cover the entire gamut of homosexuality. They could both be partially right, completely wrong or some combination of the two.
The bottom line is, God's love is unconditional so we should not withhold it from anyone regardless of their sexuality.
On a somewhat unrelated note: It seems to me though, based on personal experience, and media exposure, that there are more lesbians than homosexual men. Is that because women are more likely to have homosexual feelings and attitudes, or just less uncomfortable about coming out?
I gotta agree with the councelor on this one Out of da fog...... How fortunate for your daughter to be comfortable enough to come to you with issues.....verses the parents who`s child has to lie.
I know so many people who suffer needlessly because thaey were so terrified of the consequences of veering away from the *this is how it is to be* dogma .......
I had a friend a dear friend ...staunch christian...whom I came to a parting of the ways with when she found out that I allowed my children to read harry potter....now mind you it had been two years previously...and our boys had been best buds all of this time and she had not noticed any inherant evil ..... so anyway, she severs ties with my boys.....but one night she came to work (she was my relief) and disgustedly showed me a yugio card deck that my son had left at her house....she was deeply offended and asked me *have you LOOKED at those??? why they are just evil*... rather indignant that I would allow my son access to something so potentially damaging...very self rightious in her protection of her child....
Well, I took em home...not seriously concerned and asked the boy about them because up to this point I did not know that he had ever played with them.....well he told me the REAL story....Justin was terrified of the whipping that he would have recieved from his mother when she found them, because he knew that she did not allow those things....so he lied and said they were Stephens (my son) and he was just going to keep em for him.
So here it is MY child is the one that looked evil....but HER son is the one sneaking forbidden objects home, forced to lie when discovered....IIn the ensuing year, I found out that the other boy had done some pretty perverted things....
I would MUCH rather have my kids coming to me in all honesty for help with their issues rather than feel that they have to hide them from me....and no this isn`t about sexuality ...it IS about being able to communicate .
Fog, I have a step sister that was so traumatised before her adoption that she was never able to speak of it...her behavior steadily worsened....and her adoptive parents (my Dad and his wife) simply became more stricter the punishment ever escalating ....to this DAY she has never been able to seek help about the horrors that she suffered before she was 5 and cast to the street to live out of garbage cans.....she has never been able to tell her strict adoptive parents what troubled her....she had to build a false identity, new name, new history so that she could pretend that her past didn`t exist....How much nicer if that child had been able to feel comfortable enough to confide her *secret shame* to her parents, so that they could have sought the help she needed to deal with her damaged little soul.
Good for you Fog, how fortunate for your daughter.... you are an inspiration to the rest of us in our struggle to raise our teenagers as we attempt to steer them through the pitfalls.
rascal - well that is very nice of you to say - thank you for your support. it means alot to me as I have not only the issues of raising a teen, but it is compounded by her being considered "different" by some.
She worked in a restaurant for a while as a busser and hostess and one of the kids that goes to her school was in there with her mom. They kept calling her over to the table to get things for them. First they would call her over by saying "hey girl" we need some water, then it would be "hey guy" we need some extra napkins. Then when she would walk away from the table the mother and daughter would start laughing real loud. They basically continued to harass her this way during their time there. By the time they left she was in the back break room crying. Thank God for many wonderful co-workers and customers who were there to support her. The manager heard about it after the fact and I know would have handled it had he been there. I know because the general manager is her Uncle.
But this just shows you the ignorance of the adults sometime, an adult mother that would participate in the harrassment of another teenage child. To me that is evil, not my child.
We have had many discussions regarding the discrimination she is bound to face in her lifetime. She knows she has to accept the bad with the good. Generally she can handle the kids possibly taunting her, but for the mother to be a part of such a hurtful experience, personally I am dumbfounded.
It is possible that both the gay rights movement's assertion that homosexuality is an inherent natural state, and the biblical position that it's an abomination are both simplistic and both inadequate to cover the entire gamut of homosexuality. They could both be partially right, completely wrong or some combination of the two.
The bottom line is, God's love is unconditional so we should not withhold it from anyone regardless of their sexuality.
I agree completely! I think we just don't know and to assume or assert that we do is arrogant, ignorant and just plain wrong.
Jerry said:
On a somewhat unrelated note: It seems to me though, based on personal experience, and media exposure, that there are more lesbians than homosexual men. Is that because women are more likely to have homosexual feelings and attitudes, or just less uncomfortable about coming out?
Jerry,
That's why you just can't trust the media. ;) And why personal experience can not be used to make a blanket statement or judgement. I actually know way more gay men than I do women, but I live near the Rat where most of the employees are gay men. B) It's not easy for anyone to "come out" and I've been told by the two gay men that I work with that the ease (or lack thereof) has absolutely nothing to do with gender, but more with family relationships and support systems in place.
Outofdafog's daughter is a great example. She has an excellent support system and a superb relationship with her mom, so she's got it a lot easier than someone who knows that they will be ostracized and possibly kicked out of the family - regardless of gender. (Not saying that it's "easy" by any means, just that in the whole scheme of things, she has an easi-ER job of coming out than the other example).
Scientifically though, you may be surprised at what the facts say about your gender assumption.....
The National Health and Social Life Survey found that 1.4 percent of women and 2.8 percent of men thought of themselves as homosexual or bisexual, while more than 4 percent of women and more than 6 percent of men report a sexual attraction to people of the same sex. Another analysis that combines data from the NHSLS and several waves of the GSS finds that 3.6 percent of women and nearly 5 percent of men report having had sexual contact with a partner of the same sex since they were age 18. A national survey in Canada (2003) found that 1.9 percent of men and 1.6 percent of women reported being gay, lesbian, or bisexual. (NHSLS)
I work for 'the Rat', and while there are indeed many gay men and women, 'most' is overstating it.
For myself, It makes no difference to me, nor is it any of my business, if someone is gay or not.There is very little 'flaunting' it in the workplace, and I've never been 'hit on'. (Come to think of it, I'm not getting 'hit on ' by women either- yikes maybe it's me)! :(
Hiway - I stand corrected. Yes, that was a blanket statement, however, the point I was trying to make is, that here in Orlando I know disproportionately way more gay men than I do women. Most of those friends do work at Disney and actually a huge percentage of them play characters like Tigger, Pluto, Goofy, Mickey and Minnie. If one were to form an opinion or draw a conclusion based on my experience, it would be that there are way more gay men than there are women, which also isn't the case scientifically. I can't speak for California.
There were other points I was making as well in my post. I hope that you don't focus on just that one. No, Orlando is not your average American workplace, but my point in mentioning it was that each one of us is in differing environments and that we can't necessarily take our own perceptions and make them the rule.
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Jbarrax
I just think we should not automatically accept the dogma that homosexuals are born that way. In my opinion, it doesn't fit the facts. If some people have never felt that they had normal heterosexual urges and feelings, then they may feel that they were born different, or born homosexuals. That doesn't axiomatically mean that all homosexuals are born that way and that, therefore, it's a completely natural condition. That's all I'm saying.
There are both spiritual, hereditary, and natural causes that affect people in different degrees. There's not a simple one size fits all explanation. It is possible that both the gay rights movement's assertion that homosexuality is an inherent natural state, and the biblical position that it's an abomination are both simplistic and both inadequate to cover the entire gamut of homosexuality. They could both be partially right, completely wrong or some combination of the two.
The bottom line is, God's love is unconditional so we should not withhold it from anyone regardless of their sexuality.
On a somewhat unrelated note: It seems to me though, based on personal experience, and media exposure, that there are more lesbians than homosexual men. Is that because women are more likely to have homosexual feelings and attitudes, or just less uncomfortable about coming out?
Peace
JerryB
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Allan
Well Garth..as Oakspear said to Dawna on another post.." Better get used to not always getting what you want around here " !!
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outofdafog
sweet excie - your words are so kind - I love ya (er, you know not like a lesbian or anything - so don't get any ideas) :P
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rascal
I gotta agree with the councelor on this one Out of da fog...... How fortunate for your daughter to be comfortable enough to come to you with issues.....verses the parents who`s child has to lie.
I know so many people who suffer needlessly because thaey were so terrified of the consequences of veering away from the *this is how it is to be* dogma .......
I had a friend a dear friend ...staunch christian...whom I came to a parting of the ways with when she found out that I allowed my children to read harry potter....now mind you it had been two years previously...and our boys had been best buds all of this time and she had not noticed any inherant evil ..... so anyway, she severs ties with my boys.....but one night she came to work (she was my relief) and disgustedly showed me a yugio card deck that my son had left at her house....she was deeply offended and asked me *have you LOOKED at those??? why they are just evil*... rather indignant that I would allow my son access to something so potentially damaging...very self rightious in her protection of her child....
Well, I took em home...not seriously concerned and asked the boy about them because up to this point I did not know that he had ever played with them.....well he told me the REAL story....Justin was terrified of the whipping that he would have recieved from his mother when she found them, because he knew that she did not allow those things....so he lied and said they were Stephens (my son) and he was just going to keep em for him.
So here it is MY child is the one that looked evil....but HER son is the one sneaking forbidden objects home, forced to lie when discovered....IIn the ensuing year, I found out that the other boy had done some pretty perverted things....
I would MUCH rather have my kids coming to me in all honesty for help with their issues rather than feel that they have to hide them from me....and no this isn`t about sexuality ...it IS about being able to communicate .
Fog, I have a step sister that was so traumatised before her adoption that she was never able to speak of it...her behavior steadily worsened....and her adoptive parents (my Dad and his wife) simply became more stricter the punishment ever escalating ....to this DAY she has never been able to seek help about the horrors that she suffered before she was 5 and cast to the street to live out of garbage cans.....she has never been able to tell her strict adoptive parents what troubled her....she had to build a false identity, new name, new history so that she could pretend that her past didn`t exist....How much nicer if that child had been able to feel comfortable enough to confide her *secret shame* to her parents, so that they could have sought the help she needed to deal with her damaged little soul.
Good for you Fog, how fortunate for your daughter.... you are an inspiration to the rest of us in our struggle to raise our teenagers as we attempt to steer them through the pitfalls.
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outofdafog
rascal - well that is very nice of you to say - thank you for your support. it means alot to me as I have not only the issues of raising a teen, but it is compounded by her being considered "different" by some.
She worked in a restaurant for a while as a busser and hostess and one of the kids that goes to her school was in there with her mom. They kept calling her over to the table to get things for them. First they would call her over by saying "hey girl" we need some water, then it would be "hey guy" we need some extra napkins. Then when she would walk away from the table the mother and daughter would start laughing real loud. They basically continued to harass her this way during their time there. By the time they left she was in the back break room crying. Thank God for many wonderful co-workers and customers who were there to support her. The manager heard about it after the fact and I know would have handled it had he been there. I know because the general manager is her Uncle.
But this just shows you the ignorance of the adults sometime, an adult mother that would participate in the harrassment of another teenage child. To me that is evil, not my child.
We have had many discussions regarding the discrimination she is bound to face in her lifetime. She knows she has to accept the bad with the good. Generally she can handle the kids possibly taunting her, but for the mother to be a part of such a hurtful experience, personally I am dumbfounded.
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Belle
Jerry said:
I agree completely! I think we just don't know and to assume or assert that we do is arrogant, ignorant and just plain wrong.
Jerry said:
Jerry,
That's why you just can't trust the media. ;) And why personal experience can not be used to make a blanket statement or judgement. I actually know way more gay men than I do women, but I live near the Rat where most of the employees are gay men. B) It's not easy for anyone to "come out" and I've been told by the two gay men that I work with that the ease (or lack thereof) has absolutely nothing to do with gender, but more with family relationships and support systems in place.
Outofdafog's daughter is a great example. She has an excellent support system and a superb relationship with her mom, so she's got it a lot easier than someone who knows that they will be ostracized and possibly kicked out of the family - regardless of gender. (Not saying that it's "easy" by any means, just that in the whole scheme of things, she has an easi-ER job of coming out than the other example).
Scientifically though, you may be surprised at what the facts say about your gender assumption.....
The National Health and Social Life Survey found that 1.4 percent of women and 2.8 percent of men thought of themselves as homosexual or bisexual, while more than 4 percent of women and more than 6 percent of men report a sexual attraction to people of the same sex. Another analysis that combines data from the NHSLS and several waves of the GSS finds that 3.6 percent of women and nearly 5 percent of men report having had sexual contact with a partner of the same sex since they were age 18. A national survey in Canada (2003) found that 1.9 percent of men and 1.6 percent of women reported being gay, lesbian, or bisexual. (NHSLS)
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hiway29
I work for 'the Rat', and while there are indeed many gay men and women, 'most' is overstating it.
For myself, It makes no difference to me, nor is it any of my business, if someone is gay or not.There is very little 'flaunting' it in the workplace, and I've never been 'hit on'. (Come to think of it, I'm not getting 'hit on ' by women either- yikes maybe it's me)! :(
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Jbarrax
What's "The Rat"? Oh, nevemind, Magic Kingdom huh? Well now, that's not exactly your average American workplace, now is it?
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Belle
Hiway - I stand corrected. Yes, that was a blanket statement, however, the point I was trying to make is, that here in Orlando I know disproportionately way more gay men than I do women. Most of those friends do work at Disney and actually a huge percentage of them play characters like Tigger, Pluto, Goofy, Mickey and Minnie. If one were to form an opinion or draw a conclusion based on my experience, it would be that there are way more gay men than there are women, which also isn't the case scientifically. I can't speak for California.
There were other points I was making as well in my post. I hope that you don't focus on just that one. No, Orlando is not your average American workplace, but my point in mentioning it was that each one of us is in differing environments and that we can't necessarily take our own perceptions and make them the rule.
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