theoretically, if Donna was a "homo" (as many think and know) as you put it Allen (the homo part), then I can understand his hatred. I guess he had to go out and exploit women to prove his manliness, when his wife preferred a woman over him. Me thinketh he protesteth too much.
I'd never heard that, but she could fit the profile I guess. Has anyone else verified that? Like maybe, knew her lesbian lovers? Her sister Teresa was 11th Corps I think, she seemed straight. What was the story on Craig and Donna getting married, did VP set that up?
Regarding Allan, he has to be a troll, or he is a joke, even if he is serious. Don't feed the trolls.
In TWI a leader could be a real jerk, but he would stand up before people, look them straight in the eye and say, I AM the man of God, this is love, I'm standing in the gap for your weak A$%.
The obedient little twiggies would nod, yup, even if deep inside they were thinking, no, you are a cold hearted jerk-- they would quickly renew their mind from those thoughts. OUR LEADER claims to be thus and such, so he is. And they would endeavor to treat him like that yardstick of truth etc.
In the real world a cold hearted jerk can go around saying he's the yardstick for love and truth, but if his words and actions reveal him to be a cold hearted jerk, his self promotion isn't going to work. There's no control factor to make the little people listen and agree with him. If he wants to be some yardstick for love and truth he's going to have to do the hard work to be that.
I think that is a hard transition for some ex leadership. The words that drip from their mouths aren't treated like gold.
However, I would suggest that maybe you find another avenue to 'vent' your feelings.
And I might suggest the same to you, Alan. Especially when you comment about *limp-wrist* men. For yer info -- a limp wrist is what any quality fiddlepicker (country, bluegrass, or classical) looks for, since it gives both flexibility and definition to the notes being played.
Don't give me that *limp wrist* line, and expect to make it stick when you apply it to someone like myself!
I know what you meant, but the meaning transcends boundaries that you are apparently not cognizant of.
If I were you I'd stick to a known entity like pfal, and post on whatever boards twi makes available.
Obviously, the free-thinking, free-wheeling posts and ideas of this site, do not mesh with your thinking, so why do you want to be *yoked with oxen* that are contrary to you?
You guys really are a scream..screaming hypocrites that is !! The tone of your posts towards others who do not agree with you and your thinking I don't mind at all..but don't label me a hypocrite.
I still believe and practice what I previously believed to be straight out of the Bible..the rest of you make excuses for it.
DMiller..looks to me like you're trying to impress Belle (among others) is that wedding bells I hear ??
Were you that 'flippant' in twi ??
Oh my gosh Allan..you're so nasty and vicious in your posting (translated as..just let us ridicule, flame, abuse, and don't you DARE answer us back in that way) you guys really are a riot act !!!
Umm, Allan, I'm not making excuses--I'm not a Bible believer anymore, and I have made no secret of that fact.
If your interpretation of the Bible leads you to beliefs that others think are unkind, unloving or unworkable, then, yup, you'll have to defend them, or keep quiet. If your way is best, shouldn't it be obvious? Shouldn't it lead to better things? I have yet to see a statement about this topic from you that shows any kind of loving regard for the homosexual believer. 'Our way or the highway, you piece of homosexual filth'(the attitude I learned in TWI2) may be one interpretation of the Bible on this subject, but I don't see how it makes anyones life better. And there are other Christian doctrines on this subject that differ from that.
In TWI 2 we were taught that homosexuals were as spiritually dirty as murderers etc. Scum, lowest of the low. The lesbians I know in real life are nothing like scum. They are good people, with the same types of strengths and weaknesses you find in hetero people. Their lifestyles are not ugly and full of promiscuity and disease. They have jobs, families, friends, goals etc.
Bramble..thankyou for your reply, I do not regard the person as filth (only their actions) or I would not have welcomed them into any of our foundational classes.
I do not think VPW ever seriously discriminated against them either, at least not as bad as Martindumb did..but happy to agree to disagree with you especially in an 'adult way !!
Maybe he did Outofdafog..maybe 'butch women' and 'limpwristed' men just got too much for him !
Bramble..I think you described 'homos' much better than any of us could !!
Teens full of 'spirits' ? Not surprising given the media etc..
This was refering to a post further up where I explained the type of doctrine TWI2 had toward homosexuals. You seemed to agree with it then. Now you think differently?
Seems to me you are arguing for the sake of the argument. I'm putting you on ignore. There's no point in reading your words, you never mean them, or you mean all of them.??? Why waste time with a poster who is just trying to be antagonistic.
It seems everytime we have these topics about homosexuality, people post that they have seen or know of gays and lesbians who have been delivered in TWI or "the class" or church, etc. How come none of these folks post their deliverance stories for themselves? Why is it always second hand info from ex-wayfers who are still anti-gay? Can't you people find one delivered soul who will stand up and be counted?
DMiller..looks to me like you're trying to impress Belle (among others) is that wedding bells I hear ??
Were you that 'flippant' in twi ??
Allan -- I am trying to impress no one, and the last thing I am looking for is *wedding bells*. I was married once for 10 years, and have been single for 20 years. While I admire women, I don't see a relationship in my future cause when it comes down to brass tacks -- I am someone that is into what I am into, and no woman would want to put up with that.
Now -- with that being said, yes I was VERY FLIPPANT when I was in twi. My ex and I, and one other married couple were the *problem children* (if you will) of the local twig back in Bloomington, Indiana.
The four of us came out of a Jesus Freak group, and we all took the class within a year of each other (this is 1975 I'm talking about), yet we never ever did knuckle under to the twi authority, or their prescribed methods of doing things.
Even though we had had the class, and went to twig, and attended limb functions, there was enough of the *rebel* in us to question the doctrine and practices of twi, even while we were all in. JAL was the limb leader of Indiana at the time, and I remember a few times (though he may not), that we had him figuratively wringing his hands, wondering how to deal with us.
So there is your answer. FYI -- I'm the same person now as I was 20 years ago. I wasn't a hypocrite then, nor am I one now. Nor have I called you one. If I don't agree with what you are saying, I'll say so -- but by the same token, I will defend your right to say it.
Thanks Dave..I'll have a beer on you ! By the Way..there are a number of single women in our ministry if you're ever looking..but beware..these women are all well trained in the art of 'BACK OFF BUBBA '!!!
Karmicadebt..no I am not gay,married (still) for 22 years to my childhood sweetheart, 6 well-adjusted children (all of us ex family 20)and 4sometimes not so well adjusted grandchildren !! Keep my life busy with them and helping them be on fire for Jesus
What was the story on Craig and Donna getting married, did VP set that up?
That's correct. Dr set them up on a "date"; then told Craig he should marry her. That she was strong enough to stand with him in his ministerial life. Craig being the little puppy dog he was to VP went along with the directive.
I was around them in their first year of marriage. Absolutely no indication of romance or tenderness or any of the sweet things that transpire between a newly married couple. They looked and acted like mere roommates all along.
Thanks Dave..I'll have a beer on you ! By the Way..there are a number of single women in our ministry if you're ever looking..but beware..these women are all well trained in the art of 'BACK OFF BUBBA '!!!
Karmicadebt..no I am not gay,married (still) for 22 years to my childhood sweetheart, 6 well-adjusted children (all of us ex family 20)and 4sometimes not so well adjusted grandchildren !! Keep my life busy with them and helping them be on fire for Jesus
In TWI a leader could be a real jerk, but he would stand up before people, look them straight in the eye and say, I AM the man of God, this is love, I'm standing in the gap for your weak A$%.
The obedient little twiggies would ...
I do understand that many corp-leaders acted this way. Though certainly not all Twig Coordinators did this. Some of us felt that it was our duty to protect our Twigs from those abusive 'leaders'.
I led numerous Twig fellowships, around the country and over-seas, and with confidence I can say that I have never told anyone that I (or for that matter anyone else) was 'the' man of G-d. My understanding from PFAL has been that each and everyone of us beleivers, is a man of G-d.
Brother Speed -- on the second page of the *every pic* section, Cindy! posted a pic of Allan and his family for him. You can find it HERE.
I just went there and didn't see anything, so I'm guessing pics haven't been transfered from the old site (or something) yet. Maybe it will show up on your computer.
(edited to say *I'm guessing, rather than *I guessing*.)
how anyone could even consider a loving god or loving a god who has the perspective some people believe.... is so beyond me, i can't even explain it....
Galen-- my husband and I were twig leaders as well for a number of years. I'm not saying this is how every twig leader acted! I am well aware there were decent people running twigs.
I don't know what your area was like, but in my area by the mid ninties you were NOT a fellowship coordinator if you were a nice guy. If you weren't a pit bull, driving 'weakness' out of your fellowship, then our limb/branch leader had no use for you. Our area dropped from six fellowships to two--one run by the branch leader. These two guys had no accountability, because people were to follow their leaders, obey etc. People in the fellowships had two options--do it their way or leave. The household fellowships (not twigs anymore, that was an old wineskin) were nothing like the twig my husband and I ran for a number of years.
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Allan
Sorry Karmicadebt but I will not get drawn into 'attacks' on a personal level, you yourself should know that one still reaps what they sow..
However, I would suggest that maybe you find another avenue to 'vent' your feelings.
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satori001
Really? The "money back" remark wasn't personal? What you mean Allen is that you'd rather snipe, cut and run.
As for reaping what one sows, you'd better hope that isn't the case.
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rhino
I'd never heard that, but she could fit the profile I guess. Has anyone else verified that? Like maybe, knew her lesbian lovers? Her sister Teresa was 11th Corps I think, she seemed straight. What was the story on Craig and Donna getting married, did VP set that up?
Regarding Allan, he has to be a troll, or he is a joke, even if he is serious. Don't feed the trolls.
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excathedra
allan, your posts make me very sad
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Bramble
In TWI a leader could be a real jerk, but he would stand up before people, look them straight in the eye and say, I AM the man of God, this is love, I'm standing in the gap for your weak A$%.
The obedient little twiggies would nod, yup, even if deep inside they were thinking, no, you are a cold hearted jerk-- they would quickly renew their mind from those thoughts. OUR LEADER claims to be thus and such, so he is. And they would endeavor to treat him like that yardstick of truth etc.
In the real world a cold hearted jerk can go around saying he's the yardstick for love and truth, but if his words and actions reveal him to be a cold hearted jerk, his self promotion isn't going to work. There's no control factor to make the little people listen and agree with him. If he wants to be some yardstick for love and truth he's going to have to do the hard work to be that.
I think that is a hard transition for some ex leadership. The words that drip from their mouths aren't treated like gold.
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dmiller
And I might suggest the same to you, Alan. Especially when you comment about *limp-wrist* men. For yer info -- a limp wrist is what any quality fiddlepicker (country, bluegrass, or classical) looks for, since it gives both flexibility and definition to the notes being played.
Don't give me that *limp wrist* line, and expect to make it stick when you apply it to someone like myself!
I know what you meant, but the meaning transcends boundaries that you are apparently not cognizant of.
If I were you I'd stick to a known entity like pfal, and post on whatever boards twi makes available.
Obviously, the free-thinking, free-wheeling posts and ideas of this site, do not mesh with your thinking, so why do you want to be *yoked with oxen* that are contrary to you?
Hmmmmmmm????
Just a thot!!
David
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Allan
You guys really are a scream..screaming hypocrites that is !! The tone of your posts towards others who do not agree with you and your thinking I don't mind at all..but don't label me a hypocrite.
I still believe and practice what I previously believed to be straight out of the Bible..the rest of you make excuses for it.
DMiller..looks to me like you're trying to impress Belle (among others) is that wedding bells I hear ??
Were you that 'flippant' in twi ??
Oh my gosh Allan..you're so nasty and vicious in your posting (translated as..just let us ridicule, flame, abuse, and don't you DARE answer us back in that way) you guys really are a riot act !!!
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Bramble
Umm, Allan, I'm not making excuses--I'm not a Bible believer anymore, and I have made no secret of that fact.
If your interpretation of the Bible leads you to beliefs that others think are unkind, unloving or unworkable, then, yup, you'll have to defend them, or keep quiet. If your way is best, shouldn't it be obvious? Shouldn't it lead to better things? I have yet to see a statement about this topic from you that shows any kind of loving regard for the homosexual believer. 'Our way or the highway, you piece of homosexual filth'(the attitude I learned in TWI2) may be one interpretation of the Bible on this subject, but I don't see how it makes anyones life better. And there are other Christian doctrines on this subject that differ from that.
In TWI 2 we were taught that homosexuals were as spiritually dirty as murderers etc. Scum, lowest of the low. The lesbians I know in real life are nothing like scum. They are good people, with the same types of strengths and weaknesses you find in hetero people. Their lifestyles are not ugly and full of promiscuity and disease. They have jobs, families, friends, goals etc.
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Allan
Bramble..thankyou for your reply, I do not regard the person as filth (only their actions) or I would not have welcomed them into any of our foundational classes.
I do not think VPW ever seriously discriminated against them either, at least not as bad as Martindumb did..but happy to agree to disagree with you especially in an 'adult way !!
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Bramble
This was refering to a post further up where I explained the type of doctrine TWI2 had toward homosexuals. You seemed to agree with it then. Now you think differently?
Seems to me you are arguing for the sake of the argument. I'm putting you on ignore. There's no point in reading your words, you never mean them, or you mean all of them.??? Why waste time with a poster who is just trying to be antagonistic.
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
allen
thank god i have limp wrist
it sure helps when i sit down to the old 88's
and by the way
are you sure you are not gay?
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karmicdebt
It seems everytime we have these topics about homosexuality, people post that they have seen or know of gays and lesbians who have been delivered in TWI or "the class" or church, etc. How come none of these folks post their deliverance stories for themselves? Why is it always second hand info from ex-wayfers who are still anti-gay? Can't you people find one delivered soul who will stand up and be counted?
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Allan
Probably because the number of 'homos' is actually very small (thank God)
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dmiller
Allan -- I am trying to impress no one, and the last thing I am looking for is *wedding bells*. I was married once for 10 years, and have been single for 20 years. While I admire women, I don't see a relationship in my future cause when it comes down to brass tacks -- I am someone that is into what I am into, and no woman would want to put up with that.
Now -- with that being said, yes I was VERY FLIPPANT when I was in twi. My ex and I, and one other married couple were the *problem children* (if you will) of the local twig back in Bloomington, Indiana.
The four of us came out of a Jesus Freak group, and we all took the class within a year of each other (this is 1975 I'm talking about), yet we never ever did knuckle under to the twi authority, or their prescribed methods of doing things.
Even though we had had the class, and went to twig, and attended limb functions, there was enough of the *rebel* in us to question the doctrine and practices of twi, even while we were all in. JAL was the limb leader of Indiana at the time, and I remember a few times (though he may not), that we had him figuratively wringing his hands, wondering how to deal with us.
So there is your answer. FYI -- I'm the same person now as I was 20 years ago. I wasn't a hypocrite then, nor am I one now. Nor have I called you one. If I don't agree with what you are saying, I'll say so -- but by the same token, I will defend your right to say it.
Now -- have a couple cold ones, and relax. :)
David
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Allan
Thanks Dave..I'll have a beer on you ! By the Way..there are a number of single women in our ministry if you're ever looking..but beware..these women are all well trained in the art of 'BACK OFF BUBBA '!!!
Karmicadebt..no I am not gay,married (still) for 22 years to my childhood sweetheart, 6 well-adjusted children (all of us ex family 20)and 4sometimes not so well adjusted grandchildren !! Keep my life busy with them and helping them be on fire for Jesus
sorry..it was Coolchef that asked the question !!
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Rejoice
Rhino asked:
What was the story on Craig and Donna getting married, did VP set that up?
That's correct. Dr set them up on a "date"; then told Craig he should marry her. That she was strong enough to stand with him in his ministerial life. Craig being the little puppy dog he was to VP went along with the directive.
I was around them in their first year of marriage. Absolutely no indication of romance or tenderness or any of the sweet things that transpire between a newly married couple. They looked and acted like mere roommates all along.
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Brother Speed
Sorry Allan,
I do not believe a word of your post.
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mstar1
or any of his posts
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Galen
I do understand that many corp-leaders acted this way. Though certainly not all Twig Coordinators did this. Some of us felt that it was our duty to protect our Twigs from those abusive 'leaders'.
I led numerous Twig fellowships, around the country and over-seas, and with confidence I can say that I have never told anyone that I (or for that matter anyone else) was 'the' man of G-d. My understanding from PFAL has been that each and everyone of us beleivers, is a man of G-d.
:)
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dmiller
Brother Speed -- on the second page of the *every pic* section, Cindy! posted a pic of Allan and his family for him. You can find it HERE.
I just went there and didn't see anything, so I'm guessing pics haven't been transfered from the old site (or something) yet. Maybe it will show up on your computer.
(edited to say *I'm guessing, rather than *I guessing*.)
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Allan
Thats o.k. Bro Speed..I accept your apology..any picture of you in Iraq ??!!
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outofdafog
Outofdafog..thanks again for your advice..similar reply to many others who disagree with your line of thinking.
HUH??
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excathedra
how anyone could even consider a loving god or loving a god who has the perspective some people believe.... is so beyond me, i can't even explain it....
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Bramble
Galen-- my husband and I were twig leaders as well for a number of years. I'm not saying this is how every twig leader acted! I am well aware there were decent people running twigs.
I don't know what your area was like, but in my area by the mid ninties you were NOT a fellowship coordinator if you were a nice guy. If you weren't a pit bull, driving 'weakness' out of your fellowship, then our limb/branch leader had no use for you. Our area dropped from six fellowships to two--one run by the branch leader. These two guys had no accountability, because people were to follow their leaders, obey etc. People in the fellowships had two options--do it their way or leave. The household fellowships (not twigs anymore, that was an old wineskin) were nothing like the twig my husband and I ran for a number of years.
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