Agreed smurff, we were so engrossed in studying the minutea that I think we entirely missed the big picture.
*ever seeking but never coming unto a knowledge of the truth*....describes us pretty well I think.
*Worshipping God and moving the word* SOUND real nice....but it certainly wasn`t *Love God and Love your neighbor*....that Jesus declared our primary responsibility....I didn`t see a whole lot of genuine love period....so I guess I would have to place what we did in the *tinkling symbol* catagory.
Has kind of a nice *ring* to it... but really of no benefit.
As a matter of fact, in hind site, I think all of that studying and maniacal witnissing that we did was more of a distraction from our most important duty to God....
Gawd there were so many many individuals that manifested the fruit of the spirit in their lives.....So many many outstanding folks that were kind hearted ...truly cared for the believers that they would have had charge of....would have been a true leader by being the greatest servant....
quote:
Yeah ... a lot of em were loving spiritual christians.....too bad about the founder and his hand picked leaders indulging in darkness you know....the those guys who were hiding their corruption and evil behind those of us with pure hearts and motives.....sigh
quote:
ever seeking but never coming unto a knowledge of the truth*....describes us pretty well I think.
*Worshipping God and moving the word* SOUND real nice....but it certainly wasn`t *Love God and Love your neighbor*....that Jesus declared our primary responsibility....I didn`t see a whole lot of genuine love period....
Gee Rascal, it sounds like you are very confused about your brothers and sisters hearts and commitments while in twi.
I think your corrupted ever-unrelenting evil thinking of Victor and the BOT has filtered down even to the twig level where folks did have pure hearts and motives...sigh
Naaah, not confused about my brothers and sisters...
I said *not a whole lot of genuine love* (not that there wasn`t any) Oldies...You gotta admit, that most of the *love* in twi ended the first time you refused to obey an order from a leaders.......or if you didn`t get somebody in the next class .... or didn`t enroll in the next program...didn`t accept assignments, didn`t write loyalty oaths....didn`t tithe enough...refused to service vp or lcm upon demand...
EVEN the pure hearts and motives of the twig level (mine included) generally ceased as soon as you were m&a...
I have learned since leaving twi, that conditional love ....is not genuine.
A very poor substitute from Jesus` admonition to Love God and love your neighbor...
I think that our *ever studying* turned out to be a distraction from our primary responsibility...
Yeah, and BECAUSE we supposed and trusted those scriptures to lead us to eternal life...I think that we were actually distracted from the what we actually needed to do in order to be those spiritual Christians that we were striving to be.
I think many of us were more focused on the creation than the creator.
Of course, if folks were really that concerned about it, they always had the option to ask, at that time, while he was alive.
LMAO ... like a normal peon could get access to the great mog....you know damned well what happened to the few that actually questioned him....roflma...they were soundly castigated for questioning the great mog.
I`d like to know of a single instance where he took the time or effort to actually consider and answere a doctrinal question....I know of many MANY instances where people were the object of the mog`s rage for daring to question, and humiliation in front of everyone present....and no he never answered the question.
You make it sound like its something evil or shameful to master and study the scriptures.
No, not shameful at all- in itself.
Sure, "the law is holy, and just and good.."
Can't argue with that.
But when the world was "going to hell in a handbasket", I think some were just a little too busy arguing whether there was indeed a difference between "thoroughly" and "throughly".
Whether there were two crucified, whether there were four..
How many days between "good wednesday" and saturday morning..
Or boasting of the overwhelming "evidence" that WE were RIGHT..
Some of us REALLY made a difference. And I don't think it was because we were "right".
LMAO ... like a normal peon could get access to the great mog....you know damned well what happened to the few that actually questioned him....roflma...they were soundly castigated for questioning the great mog.
I`d like to know of a single instance where he took the time or effort to actually consider and answere a doctrinal question....
Rascal you are a piece of work.
I personally attest to it. I remember sending him a letter very shortly after taking PFAL (1973), and getting a written answer shortly thereafter!
A few months later, I personally asked him a question about WOW (this was in late 1973 at a camp) and he answered it.
I think you demonstrate that your views are so corrupted, slanted and biased.
You don't know everything that went down but yet "ye think" ye speak for everyone.
No, I do not knock studying and "mastering" the word, IN ITSELF.
I think everything has its place.. but seventy times through the darn thing, or even twenty- is going a little too far, no? They taught us that after hearing it SIX times, you've got about all you're gonna get.
No balance in life.. what I find abhorrent is poring over the same tired concepts and teachings instead of getting on with life, finding your calling, and doing SOMETHING with it.
P*sses me off- took me over twenty years to see it..
Yep. I'm redeemed, but what in the stinkin world am I DOING with it? Actually making a difference somewhere, or just hiding behind some old concepts taught in somebodies obscure, little known seminar?
I have the same opinion for the "new and improved" copies.
The latest and greatest seminar is not going to SUBSTANTIALLY change your life. I can almost GUARANTEE it. Especially if its a rehash of the same old tired stuff, with a new "twist" or something..
Well, I would surmise that complaining about things that happened 20-30 years ago, now, doesn't help much of that, in any event.
I don't entirely agree. It helps, at least NOW.
Finding you p*ssed away twenty some years of life, leaves you with at least a couple of options.
1. Continue p*ssing away the few years you have left, with your head stuck up a PFAL book or something,
.....or......,
2. Get mad, and DO SOMETHING!
It took me a long time to get over the fear that if I stepped out and tried something new, something different, that I'd make a mistake, be a horrible failure..
I personally attest to it. I remember sending him a letter very shortly after taking PFAL (1973), and getting a written answer shortly thereafter!
A few months later, I personally asked him a question about WOW (this was in late 1973 at a camp) and he answered it.
Hey there Oldies, how be ye?
Not disputing that you *asked and received* at all, but 1973 was a lot different than the latter 70's, and early 80's. IMO docvic was much more accessible to the average joe in the earlier days (such as 1973), than he was in the following years.
Pfal 77, all the *heartbeat* festivals, AC 79, ROA's -- you couldn't get near the mog, much less ask a personal question. I suppose if he chose to swing through a particular area on a motorcycle tour, he might entertain questions about his Harley.
I had a question once about the twi spin on born again of the wrong seed in the OT. Still do.
"if the devil only copies God's works, how could he have made
new birth from the wrong seed *available* before God did,
since new birth from the right seed wasn't *available* until Pentecost
And it was a secret/mystery to boot'?
I asked the bc. They didn't know. I asked the lc. They said hmmm, good question. I suggested sending it in to the research dept. and was told (basically) -- awww don't bother them, they have work to do. -->
The *hedge of protection* was growing even then, and becoming more and more impenetrable for the average joe. And if you didn't have the proper color nametag, you weren't going to get through it. ;)-->
Well we all KNOW that your situation was very different from the common wafer oldies...you enjoyed access and priveleges that weren`t an option for most of us .....so your experience as it applies to the rest of us is really quite irrelevent.
I saw/ heard with my own eyes vp incensed at a questioner....yelling deriding....People were thrown out of the research dept if their studies didn`t jive with current twi dogma....real open there wasn`t he?
Amen Mr. Hamm...It takes time to get over the fear instilled by wrong teachings and false standards to get mad enough ....couragious enough to enact the necessary changes and step outside the little box that was our tiny little world.
In the later years, when he had letter screeners, I also experienced not getting answers directly from VP when a couple of my letters were screened, and others responded.
But dang it, if you have a burning question and want VP himself to answer it, and he didn't, then I surmise if you didn't get satisfaction, you'd get fed up and leave.
Why some people are so miserable about some of these things now comes off as just sour putrid fruit, speaking of fruit in ones' life.
BTW, I did eventually get my questions answered, even if it wasn't from VP. And some of the answers weren't to my satisfaction anyway. But thats ok because it was still my choice to stay even with those not-so-perfect conditions.
Well we all KNOW that your situation was very different from the common wafer oldies...you enjoyed access and priveleges that weren`t an option for most of us .....so your experience as it applies to the rest of us is really quite irrelevent.
Rascal you seem to know lots of things without really thoroughly checking with the source. You do a lot of surmising, evil surmising.
You freely talk about the fruit of some others, yet you fail to examine your own rotten-to-the-core fruit.
quote:
I saw/ heard with my own eyes vp incensed at a questioner....yelling deriding....People were thrown out of the research dept if their studies didn`t jive with current twi dogma....real open there wasn`t he?
I do not deny your experience and you are free to share YOUR OWN EXPERIENCE. Please do.
But you shouldn't speak as if you know everything about everyone else's experience. When you say "we" and "us", you speak for everyone. You do not.
Interesting.. my life, at least right now, is picking up where I left off about 20+ years ago.
I think a lot of the problem was substituting God's real calling for my life with participation in an organization that SEEMED to be what they said they were..
a very poor substitute, at best.
I kinda find it sad.. people that have even been kicked outa that outhouse, still find it their life's dream, to somehow STILL be able to "participate".
Just want everything back, like the "good old days".
Pay $$$$$$ on Ebay for copies of the old, tired, worn out materials..
I saw people REAMED RAW for carrying on their mission in life, and still try to go to "twig"..
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oldiesman
But our hearts were on worshipping God and moving the Word, so we couldn't have been all that bad.
I see now that we missed the mark on worshipping Jesus, but it wasn't out of hate or malice, just not enough right teaching on the subject.
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rascal
Agreed smurff, we were so engrossed in studying the minutea that I think we entirely missed the big picture.
*ever seeking but never coming unto a knowledge of the truth*....describes us pretty well I think.
*Worshipping God and moving the word* SOUND real nice....but it certainly wasn`t *Love God and Love your neighbor*....that Jesus declared our primary responsibility....I didn`t see a whole lot of genuine love period....so I guess I would have to place what we did in the *tinkling symbol* catagory.
Has kind of a nice *ring* to it... but really of no benefit.
As a matter of fact, in hind site, I think all of that studying and maniacal witnissing that we did was more of a distraction from our most important duty to God....
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Ham
What I find most disturbing in some of this..
while we held the minutea so dear to our hearts, da "master", without a moments notice, or second thought, was able and allowed to THROW IT OUT.
"Ye think" being a perfect example.
Ah, maybe we weren't supposed to "think".
The explanations for this?
1. It wasn't in the Aramaic (???!!!)
2. "dr." knows best (other words, go away. Don't bother him..)
3. We will eventually find a manuscript that does not have these foul words..
4. Hold it in abeyance (see number 2)
5,6,7- etc. The other explanations so inane I chose to forget them..
These explanations were given by various limb coordinators I was acquainted with..
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oldiesman
Rascal you said these:
Gee Rascal, it sounds like you are very confused about your brothers and sisters hearts and commitments while in twi.
I think your corrupted ever-unrelenting evil thinking of Victor and the BOT has filtered down even to the twig level where folks did have pure hearts and motives...sigh
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rascal
Naaah, not confused about my brothers and sisters...
I said *not a whole lot of genuine love* (not that there wasn`t any) Oldies...You gotta admit, that most of the *love* in twi ended the first time you refused to obey an order from a leaders.......or if you didn`t get somebody in the next class .... or didn`t enroll in the next program...didn`t accept assignments, didn`t write loyalty oaths....didn`t tithe enough...refused to service vp or lcm upon demand...
EVEN the pure hearts and motives of the twig level (mine included) generally ceased as soon as you were m&a...
I have learned since leaving twi, that conditional love ....is not genuine.
A very poor substitute from Jesus` admonition to Love God and love your neighbor...
I think that our *ever studying* turned out to be a distraction from our primary responsibility...
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Ham
Sounds like the modern day equivalent, "masters of da word"..
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rascal
Yeah, and BECAUSE we supposed and trusted those scriptures to lead us to eternal life...I think that we were actually distracted from the what we actually needed to do in order to be those spiritual Christians that we were striving to be.
I think many of us were more focused on the creation than the creator.
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oldiesman
Mr. Hammeroni,
You make it sound like its something evil or shameful to master and study the scriptures.
I never really thought about why VP omitted those words "ye think" in that verse.
Of course, if folks were really that concerned about it, they always had the option to ask, at that time, while he was alive.
I actually don't know why they were omitted. Perhaps someone from the research dept. or someone else has an answer to that, who may have asked why.
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rascal
LMAO ... like a normal peon could get access to the great mog....you know damned well what happened to the few that actually questioned him....roflma...they were soundly castigated for questioning the great mog.
I`d like to know of a single instance where he took the time or effort to actually consider and answere a doctrinal question....I know of many MANY instances where people were the object of the mog`s rage for daring to question, and humiliation in front of everyone present....and no he never answered the question.
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Ham
No, not shameful at all- in itself.
Sure, "the law is holy, and just and good.."
Can't argue with that.
But when the world was "going to hell in a handbasket", I think some were just a little too busy arguing whether there was indeed a difference between "thoroughly" and "throughly".
Whether there were two crucified, whether there were four..
How many days between "good wednesday" and saturday morning..
Or boasting of the overwhelming "evidence" that WE were RIGHT..
Some of us REALLY made a difference. And I don't think it was because we were "right".
It was probably DESPITE that little known "fact".
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Ham
Ah yes. And how many times did I go over, and over, and over "four crucified", "are the dead alive now?", etc., etc., etc.
It added NO FRUIT to MY life. Can't speak for others, but for me- it didn't improve my character one bit.
In fact, it made it worse. "Me, me me- I've got the ANSWERS!"
Turned me from an otherwise flawed human being into a bigoted, miserable SOB.. no wonder I didn't get very many invitations to dinner anywhere..
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oldiesman
I personally attest to it. I remember sending him a letter very shortly after taking PFAL (1973), and getting a written answer shortly thereafter!
A few months later, I personally asked him a question about WOW (this was in late 1973 at a camp) and he answered it.
I think you demonstrate that your views are so corrupted, slanted and biased.
You don't know everything that went down but yet "ye think" ye speak for everyone.
Ptoewee
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oldiesman
Don't know about knowledge alone building character. You are probably correct there.
If you believe we were short on love and good works, that's a debatable point in and of itself.
But why do you knock mastering and studying the Word to make your point?
Personally, I wish I had access to this knowledge in twi when I went to the RC church!!
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def59
I don't know about you but knowing that the dead are not alive now and have scriptural confirmation comforts me much.
OM
I take comfort in knowing my son, who was a stillbirth, is in heaven right now fishing with his great-grandfathers. There's peace in that.
Life is not fair, but calls people home for a reason and that is to bring Him glory.
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Ham
No, I do not knock studying and "mastering" the word, IN ITSELF.
I think everything has its place.. but seventy times through the darn thing, or even twenty- is going a little too far, no? They taught us that after hearing it SIX times, you've got about all you're gonna get.
No balance in life.. what I find abhorrent is poring over the same tired concepts and teachings instead of getting on with life, finding your calling, and doing SOMETHING with it.
P*sses me off- took me over twenty years to see it..
Yep. I'm redeemed, but what in the stinkin world am I DOING with it? Actually making a difference somewhere, or just hiding behind some old concepts taught in somebodies obscure, little known seminar?
I have the same opinion for the "new and improved" copies.
The latest and greatest seminar is not going to SUBSTANTIALLY change your life. I can almost GUARANTEE it. Especially if its a rehash of the same old tired stuff, with a new "twist" or something..
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oldiesman
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Ham
Doing "something" with it.
I know corps grads and others that ARE doing "something" with it.
And it doesn't resemble PFAL or any of the tired worn out teachings in any way, shape or form..
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Ham
I don't entirely agree. It helps, at least NOW.
Finding you p*ssed away twenty some years of life, leaves you with at least a couple of options.
1. Continue p*ssing away the few years you have left, with your head stuck up a PFAL book or something,
.....or......,
2. Get mad, and DO SOMETHING!
It took me a long time to get over the fear that if I stepped out and tried something new, something different, that I'd make a mistake, be a horrible failure..
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dmiller
Hey there Oldies, how be ye?
Not disputing that you *asked and received* at all, but 1973 was a lot different than the latter 70's, and early 80's. IMO docvic was much more accessible to the average joe in the earlier days (such as 1973), than he was in the following years.
Pfal 77, all the *heartbeat* festivals, AC 79, ROA's -- you couldn't get near the mog, much less ask a personal question. I suppose if he chose to swing through a particular area on a motorcycle tour, he might entertain questions about his Harley.
I had a question once about the twi spin on born again of the wrong seed in the OT. Still do.
"if the devil only copies God's works, how could he have made
new birth from the wrong seed *available* before God did,
since new birth from the right seed wasn't *available* until Pentecost
And it was a secret/mystery to boot'?
I asked the bc. They didn't know. I asked the lc. They said hmmm, good question. I suggested sending it in to the research dept. and was told (basically) -- awww don't bother them, they have work to do.
-->
The *hedge of protection* was growing even then, and becoming more and more impenetrable for the average joe. And if you didn't have the proper color nametag, you weren't going to get through it.
;)-->
David
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rascal
Well we all KNOW that your situation was very different from the common wafer oldies...you enjoyed access and priveleges that weren`t an option for most of us .....so your experience as it applies to the rest of us is really quite irrelevent.
I saw/ heard with my own eyes vp incensed at a questioner....yelling deriding....People were thrown out of the research dept if their studies didn`t jive with current twi dogma....real open there wasn`t he?
Amen Mr. Hamm...It takes time to get over the fear instilled by wrong teachings and false standards to get mad enough ....couragious enough to enact the necessary changes and step outside the little box that was our tiny little world.
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smurfette
Hamm,
I am glad we all talk about things that happened 20-30 years ago!
Even though twi taught it, we are ones who believed all this stuff. My response to realizing p*ssing away all those years is:
1. Keep posting on here for those still stuck in.
2. Realized my mistake, got humble and finally drew near to Jesus like verse 40 mentions.
Oh BTW--even if you leave the "ye think" out --the end result is the same--they still don't draw near to Jesus Christ.
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oldiesman
dmiller,
In the later years, when he had letter screeners, I also experienced not getting answers directly from VP when a couple of my letters were screened, and others responded.
But dang it, if you have a burning question and want VP himself to answer it, and he didn't, then I surmise if you didn't get satisfaction, you'd get fed up and leave.
Why some people are so miserable about some of these things now comes off as just sour putrid fruit, speaking of fruit in ones' life.
BTW, I did eventually get my questions answered, even if it wasn't from VP. And some of the answers weren't to my satisfaction anyway. But thats ok because it was still my choice to stay even with those not-so-perfect conditions.
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oldiesman
You freely talk about the fruit of some others, yet you fail to examine your own rotten-to-the-core fruit.
I do not deny your experience and you are free to share YOUR OWN EXPERIENCE. Please do.But you shouldn't speak as if you know everything about everyone else's experience. When you say "we" and "us", you speak for everyone. You do not.
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Ham
Interesting.. my life, at least right now, is picking up where I left off about 20+ years ago.
I think a lot of the problem was substituting God's real calling for my life with participation in an organization that SEEMED to be what they said they were..
a very poor substitute, at best.
I kinda find it sad.. people that have even been kicked outa that outhouse, still find it their life's dream, to somehow STILL be able to "participate".
Just want everything back, like the "good old days".
Pay $$$$$$ on Ebay for copies of the old, tired, worn out materials..
I saw people REAMED RAW for carrying on their mission in life, and still try to go to "twig"..
All or nothing, I guess..
Nope. I wouldn't go back.
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