Sounds about right Ham. Of course, when he was younger, he would have worked closely with the Priests while studying the scrolls to prepare for his Bar Mitzvah. Besides that, he would have had to study at the synogogue. There isn't anything actually written about those years, so anything would be conjecture.
dont forget, he was also a very curious kid...being raised a more or less a travelling hillbilly
...a natural seeker...caring and understanding...and quite fearless (socially and otherwise)
and he spent some of his most formative years exposed to other cultures (such as Egypt)
and was most likely exposed to many other traditions in the relatively cosmopolitan and peaceful era of his time
(not to mention the many less-than-mainstream sects of his own people)
most of what he taught was not directly from the scrolls, anyway, but from somewhere else, and served to challenge the then-conventional and rigid interpretations of them
especially as to pertained to how, after 2000k years or so, the richness of the lineage of Abraham was pretty much lost to the priests and mainstream, anyway
If memory serves, the parents and/or grandparents passed down the teachings to their children. We would need to assume Joseph and Mary were both pretty fluent, as were other family members, like Elizabeth, John the Baptist's mother (Mary's cousin, I think?)
They were pretty adept at considering angels' appearances real, at least. And obeying what most men wouldn't have even spoken of.
I first thought of when Jesus was 12 and was sitting in the temple with the elders--when he left his parents. The scribes and pharisees wondered the same thing. How did he know such things?
I guess we need to remember that Jesus' memory must have been remarkable, considering his Father. His genes must have enabled him to do more than the average person, even at 12. Would genius be part of his heritage? I would think so. I would also add at this time that he must have been physically beautiful as well. I don't know if there's any truth to the old saying that we only used 10% of our brains, but if there is, I bet it didn't pertain to Jesus.
Sounds about right Ham. Of course, when he was younger, he would have worked closely with the Priests while studying the scrolls to prepare for his Bar Mitzvah. Besides that, he would have had to study at the synogogue. There isn't anything actually written about those years, so anything would be conjecture.
Except that the Bar Mitzvah ceremony came during the Middle Ages.
This is where the idea that he was God starts to play in. A man without daily access to the scrolls could not possibly remember the passages. But if he had a hand in the original writing of the books, then that's another story.
Ok, so I come back and say, he grew in wisdom, the Father was greater than he, and he called the Father the "only true God."
Can it be any more simple?
But rather than go off on that tangent (which is a tangent), why not just acknowledge that knowing the scriptures the way Jesus did can be explained whether or not he is actually God the Creator?
Of course he GREW. He had to learn how to speak, walk, etc. He was born a BABY. One interesting (?) fact was also the lineage of Mary and Joseph. We are not talking about spiritual idiots there. They were bluebloods. They were believers, not in name only either.
I got to see the Dead Sea Scrolls exhibit earlier this year. They were written on animal skins and you could actually see where they were sewn together to make them longer or wider. The massorah was evident on some (I thought that awesome). There were biblical scrolls and historical. It is said that most of the Bible had been recaptured in the caves, but are now preserved in Jerusalem. Some of the exhibit showed mere minute pieces of a scroll that made a modern-day puzzle look like a stroll (scroll?) in the park. These scrolls must have been extremely precious in Jesus' day.
Are there some who think Jesus was born actually knowing all that was written? Were would the human part come in if that were true?
not to compare the Kid and Mozart across the board, Raf. Mozart may have been a rare egg, but was not the generic apex specimen of humanity in all ways, as Jesus has been described.
but some of the most telling similarities i can see though, in the most human sense, if you will, are things like:
that ability to entertain a crowd, and compose symphonies of truth. the gift to have changed the way the world thinks about something or other or two or three
imagine, to actually feel a need to throw your self to the masses in the name of love and expressions of its divine manifestation.
to care enough to impale yourself on history in the name of silly things like love, beauty, truth...
that passionate living of life like a man on fire...
both of them were Rock Stars plus, in a sense
which, considering the cultures they lived in, was a one-in-a-million kind of affair
and...i doubt Mozart carried around a copy of every song he heard
just as i doubt Jesus memorized every line of scripture he read
cuz its the spirit of the letter that counts, i recall
i think the scriptures and old sayings that weren't even written were talked about, discussed and reflected upon in many circles around the campfires in many places
and more wisdom was born out of these communions of people as that which is within begins to see more and more of itself
It is in the doing of the word we see results we learn about who God and what His will is.
be ye Doer's of the word.
It is written.
Mary and Jo where very Godly people, look at how Jesus was born!
they knew God and believed His will for them.
they knew when God spoke to them as did the whole family, Elizabeth was an outstanding believer in what God promised her and in spite of her rather doubting hubby.
I believe they spoke and LIVED who God was to them as a family as a culture as a lifestyle.
Who has made the most impact about God in your life?
Was it the preacher who says Romans is the answer to life or was it those that you have seen walk and talk with a power you want and need in life?
Jesus was raised in a very Godly household. they knew the word and they believed God spoke and talked to them. GEEZ mary knew she had not had sex with Jo even if no one eles believed what God told her , Jo believed in Mary and God to marry her .
they didnt doubt God's vioce in their life from the day Jesus was concieved and most probably way before that as she was a chosen mother of Jesus, that took generations to find.
Why would they need a bible or scrolls? Im sure they taught from the scrolls they had what they had to learn but really it was God with them that taught them the "truth". t he was not a bastard,YET the whole freaking town thought he was...what does a scroll or two do in a case like that?
they walked and talked with God almighty and taught their son to do the same.
Honestly, any of that kind of stuff would have gotten in the way.. in my opinion.
Yeah, I know reading the OT was part of it. But I think people, except for the scribes and such, had a little more balance in their lives back in those days..
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moony3424
Sounds about right Ham. Of course, when he was younger, he would have worked closely with the Priests while studying the scrolls to prepare for his Bar Mitzvah. Besides that, he would have had to study at the synogogue. There isn't anything actually written about those years, so anything would be conjecture.
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sirguessalot
dont forget, he was also a very curious kid...being raised a more or less a travelling hillbilly
...a natural seeker...caring and understanding...and quite fearless (socially and otherwise)
and he spent some of his most formative years exposed to other cultures (such as Egypt)
and was most likely exposed to many other traditions in the relatively cosmopolitan and peaceful era of his time
(not to mention the many less-than-mainstream sects of his own people)
most of what he taught was not directly from the scrolls, anyway, but from somewhere else, and served to challenge the then-conventional and rigid interpretations of them
especially as to pertained to how, after 2000k years or so, the richness of the lineage of Abraham was pretty much lost to the priests and mainstream, anyway
can we at least assume these kinds of things?
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irisheyes
If memory serves, the parents and/or grandparents passed down the teachings to their children. We would need to assume Joseph and Mary were both pretty fluent, as were other family members, like Elizabeth, John the Baptist's mother (Mary's cousin, I think?)
They were pretty adept at considering angels' appearances real, at least. And obeying what most men wouldn't have even spoken of.
I first thought of when Jesus was 12 and was sitting in the temple with the elders--when he left his parents. The scribes and pharisees wondered the same thing. How did he know such things?
I guess we need to remember that Jesus' memory must have been remarkable, considering his Father. His genes must have enabled him to do more than the average person, even at 12. Would genius be part of his heritage? I would think so. I would also add at this time that he must have been physically beautiful as well. I don't know if there's any truth to the old saying that we only used 10% of our brains, but if there is, I bet it didn't pertain to Jesus.
IE
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sirguessalot
yeah, IE, and if was recorded that he wandered off to hang out with priests in the temple, might he have also wandered off to talk to others?
would such a Kid let cultural taboos stop him from asking anyone genuine and honest questions?
and again, at this time, Judean thought was already old old old, and quite a wildly diverse tapestry of thought.
And not all of it was so cleanly recorded in canonical form. Spoken word was common method of transfer.
Even visual art forms were efficient ways of preserving a wisdom tradition.
John the Baptist was not a regular temple kind of guy. Though he probably had a lot of non-canonical scrolls too (like the Dead Sea Scrolls)
Neither were the relatives and friends who naturally resonated with the Kid and become his students.
Nor were all those mysterious folks in white clothes who seemed to show up time and time again.
Not all Jewish spiritual thought and study happened in the temples (like TWI doctrines seemed to imply).
From before even Abraham, most of the richest spiritual meetings with God happened in caves, under a tree, on the road, or on mountain tops.
The spoken word and living/lived word was more of a sacred art than the written word. Being more alive and spiritually present.
The Kid seemed more interested in demonstrating the Word as a living quickening reality, than studying it in a book like frightened priests.
And he seemed determined to break the priests and the jewish mainstream of their mostly ignorant fixation with the books.
(because of the way they used the books to cause suffering and put dogmatic burdens on their flocks)
although, this is not to devalue what is actually recorded. i love the scriptures and for what they preserve.
But rather, i think that demonstration and living spiritual experience verifies and opens up to us what is written...
...NOT the other way around.
so no, Ham, i dont think Jesus owned his own copy of the OT scrolls
he was more or less homeless and possession-less
but he knew the scrolls, and was familiar with the wide variety of jewish interpretations of them,
as well as those jewish and non-jewish writings NOT allowed in the temples
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def59
Except that the Bar Mitzvah ceremony came during the Middle Ages.
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def59
This is where the idea that he was God starts to play in. A man without daily access to the scrolls could not possibly remember the passages. But if he had a hand in the original writing of the books, then that's another story.
He wasn't called Lord for nothing.
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Raf
Mozart wrote music at age 5. Talent doesn't prove Divinity.
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def59
In other words. He was the Word (John 1:1), manifest in the flesh (John 1:14)
Can it be any more simple?
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Raf
Ok, so I come back and say, he grew in wisdom, the Father was greater than he, and he called the Father the "only true God."
Can it be any more simple?
But rather than go off on that tangent (which is a tangent), why not just acknowledge that knowing the scriptures the way Jesus did can be explained whether or not he is actually God the Creator?
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irisheyes
Of course he GREW. He had to learn how to speak, walk, etc. He was born a BABY. One interesting (?) fact was also the lineage of Mary and Joseph. We are not talking about spiritual idiots there. They were bluebloods. They were believers, not in name only either.
IE
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Ham
So far, it looks like the answer is "no". Jesus did NOT have his own "bible"..
What I was kind of thinking was, he probably didn't sit around with his nose in the book from 9 to 5 trying to "master" the darn thing..
Either you have it, or you don't. Apparently, he "had" it..
Good point, Sirguessalot..
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irisheyes
A little bit of a sidetrack here.
(In case someone doesn't know.)
I got to see the Dead Sea Scrolls exhibit earlier this year. They were written on animal skins and you could actually see where they were sewn together to make them longer or wider. The massorah was evident on some (I thought that awesome). There were biblical scrolls and historical. It is said that most of the Bible had been recaptured in the caves, but are now preserved in Jerusalem. Some of the exhibit showed mere minute pieces of a scroll that made a modern-day puzzle look like a stroll (scroll?) in the park. These scrolls must have been extremely precious in Jesus' day.
Are there some who think Jesus was born actually knowing all that was written? Were would the human part come in if that were true?
IE
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markomalley
Consider that we know very little of his life prior to his baptism, anything that we conclude here would be pure speculation.
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Raf
Umm, we don't get to decide the answer. We don't even get a vote.
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sirguessalot
what if Mozart was also divine?
and his music?
i mean, just how exotic is this "divinity," anyway?
what is its signature?
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TheInvisibleDan
Maybe this is another reason why He chose 12 disciples - to carry His scrolls around for him.
And after He subscribed to a couple of scroll clubs, He chose 70 more.
Danny
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sirguessalot
not to compare the Kid and Mozart across the board, Raf. Mozart may have been a rare egg, but was not the generic apex specimen of humanity in all ways, as Jesus has been described.
but some of the most telling similarities i can see though, in the most human sense, if you will, are things like:
that ability to entertain a crowd, and compose symphonies of truth. the gift to have changed the way the world thinks about something or other or two or three
imagine, to actually feel a need to throw your self to the masses in the name of love and expressions of its divine manifestation.
to care enough to impale yourself on history in the name of silly things like love, beauty, truth...
that passionate living of life like a man on fire...
both of them were Rock Stars plus, in a sense
which, considering the cultures they lived in, was a one-in-a-million kind of affair
and...i doubt Mozart carried around a copy of every song he heard
just as i doubt Jesus memorized every line of scripture he read
cuz its the spirit of the letter that counts, i recall
its the spirit of the letter that lasts
the spirit of the letter we are after
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Ham
Sorry Raf.. that is what I perceive as the answer..
please VOTE!
That's why I started the durn thing here!
:D-->
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irisheyes
Hammer,
Although the scriptures may not give us the answer, society, history and legacies do help. I would have to vote NO. He did not have his own copy.
IE
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CM
i think the scriptures and old sayings that weren't even written were talked about, discussed and reflected upon in many circles around the campfires in many places
and more wisdom was born out of these communions of people as that which is within begins to see more and more of itself
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Ham
What a post.. all I can say is "amen"..
Reminds me of some of the teaching about the spoken prophecies that were handed down VERBALLY.
Seems they were given equal weight in some of the records that the written ones were..
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mj412
It is in the doing of the word we see results we learn about who God and what His will is.
be ye Doer's of the word.
It is written.
Mary and Jo where very Godly people, look at how Jesus was born!
they knew God and believed His will for them.
they knew when God spoke to them as did the whole family, Elizabeth was an outstanding believer in what God promised her and in spite of her rather doubting hubby.
I believe they spoke and LIVED who God was to them as a family as a culture as a lifestyle.
Who has made the most impact about God in your life?
Was it the preacher who says Romans is the answer to life or was it those that you have seen walk and talk with a power you want and need in life?
Jesus was raised in a very Godly household. they knew the word and they believed God spoke and talked to them. GEEZ mary knew she had not had sex with Jo even if no one eles believed what God told her , Jo believed in Mary and God to marry her .
they didnt doubt God's vioce in their life from the day Jesus was concieved and most probably way before that as she was a chosen mother of Jesus, that took generations to find.
Why would they need a bible or scrolls? Im sure they taught from the scrolls they had what they had to learn but really it was God with them that taught them the "truth". t he was not a bastard,YET the whole freaking town thought he was...what does a scroll or two do in a case like that?
they walked and talked with God almighty and taught their son to do the same.
it is a spiritual life with the father.
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Ham
I think that's really the whole point of it..
no mind numbing sessions doing retemories..
no block memorization of scriptures..
they just lived it.
Honestly, any of that kind of stuff would have gotten in the way.. in my opinion.
Yeah, I know reading the OT was part of it. But I think people, except for the scribes and such, had a little more balance in their lives back in those days..
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Raf
Too bad none of the options is "The Bible doesn't say, so we just don't know."
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