We have a wonderfull methodist minister who`s love transcends the doctrinal barrier.
I have seen churches here that have it, and those who don`t ....denomination doesn`t seem to factor in whether or not they love God and love one another.
I have also seen churches that were great for a while....but change and attempt to go down a dark path.
My opinion would be based on how the minister conducted themselves....when they answere your questions...do they honestly care about you....or are they on a recruiting mission?
Be prepared to sample a variety ... it is almost like chosing a new favorite restaurant...you go and if you enjoy ...continue...
I have found that docrtinal issues matter a whole lot less than how they honor the two great commandments...
I have also found that though they be doctrinaly on a different page than I was...DIDN`T necessarily mean that they didn1t have something to teach me :-)
I would like to add that sometimes you have to visit somewheres at least twice or even a month when the "new visitor" status wears off and you see things as they are. Since we moved to AZ we have not had a church home we wanted to stay with permanently. To me it is not just about doctrine, although that is primary, but how people treat each other, what is available there.
First, you can't blow off the doctrine issues. If you have conflicts with a given church in regards to doctrine, it will surface at some point in time and will cause a major conflict. That time may be weeks, months, or years. But it will come.
If you fully subscribe to TWI doctrine in your heart of hearts and are unmovable on it, then that's one thing. If you are willing to acknowledge that traditional orthodox Christianity may have something to offer in their theology and are willing to examine their theology based upon its own merits, rather than comparing where it is in disagreement with the TWI theology, then you need to resolve within yourself that they might be right and you're willing to listen and possibly learn.
I say the above because I found myself being offended for years and years going into and out of churches because they taught what I believed was non-Biblical teaching. I had to get myself to the point of understanding that TWI might have been wrong and they might be right. Once I did that, it was a lot easier.
The second thing to consider is the liturgy. Are you looking for something that is contemporary and relaxed or something that is traditional and reverent (not that contemporary can't be reverent). Are you looking for something where most of the emphasis is a preacher talking or where the emphasis is on the prayers?
Although TWI and offshoots are decidedly non-liturgical, I would encourage you to learn about the liturgical ceremonies used by such churches as the Eastern Orthodox, the Byzantine Catholics, the Copts, High Church Anglicans, or the Roman Catholics. There is a huge amount of symbolism in their liturgies that, if you appreciate it, is very, very profound and actually makes for a very rich experience.
On the other extreme, if you want a place where people live and let live, you may wish to check out a Unitarian-Universalist church. You should not be at all dogged out for any beliefs you may hold, but, on the other hand, you have to acknowledge that others have the right to hold their beliefs...even if they are offensive to you.
But the issue is that you will want to understand whatever church from their perspective.
And then how does that church apply their beliefs in their practices and policies?
One thing you might want to do is to go to Barnes and Noble and get a book on comparative religion, so that you can understand, on a basic level, what their beliefs are.
One other thing is that if you can live with a group's beliefs but don't like a particular congregation/parish/whatever, go check out another congregation/parish/whatever who are part of the same denomination. All churches are not created equal.
As an example, there are three Catholic churches in Laurel, Maryland. Two of them are Latin Rite (i.e., Roman Catholic), one is Byzantine Rite. One of the Latin Rite churches is virtually empty. They don't have any programs going on, no school for their kids, very little activity at all, and attendence is down. The other is packed to overflowing, has a school for the kids, lots of sports activities, a boy scout troop, girl scout troop, teen clubs, young adult groups, and, in fact, they are looking at expanding to 8 masses a weekend, because they are overflowing with the 7 masses (1 Saturday, 5 Sunday in English, 1 Sunday in Spanish) they have scheduled now. I've heard that other denominations have the same situation...some growing, some shrinking.
Sorry for this being disorganized, but its just some stray thoughts on the matter.
Excellent thoughts on the subject, Mark. I wish I had had that perspective when I was first looking for a church fit.
Good advice in there, Penguin. And through personal experience, I'll add the following - - I think it takes visiting a number of churches for a bit after being involved in a rigid, non-compromising organization like twi. One or two visits probably won't give you the entire picture -- and through each visit, you'll be "unlearning" your twi experience. So, Mark's advice to read and research is wise indeed.
One of the things to which ex-twi posters here can probably attest is that your whole vocabulary, behavior, modes of communication, ability to legitimately express emotions freely, etc. - - - will be in a state of evolution for years following an exit from twi (or other controlling group, for that matter). So give it time, Penguin - - and recognize that spouses and children will also be going through those same changes - - ON THEIR OWN TIMING!!!! What is "suddenly" acceptable to your spouse, may not be to you at that particular time - - and vice versa.
So breathe, pray, reflect, sort, weed, reflect again, re-assess, get mad, rant and rave, pray some more, re-reflect - - it's all a process, a journey, an adventure - - which you will probably enjoy at points and probably won't enjoy at other points.
One last note - - whenever you leave something that you've dedicated and invested a lot of time and energy in - - there's no doubt going to be some time of grieving and sense of loss. I'm sure if you've been reading here at gsc with any sensitivity, you'll observe some of the stages of grief here - - Denial and Isolation; Anger; bargaining; Depression and Acceptance. These are evident in people's lives who experience a death, a loss of a relationship, or in this case, the loss of something you were involved in that held value and has been exposed as something other than what it was first thought to be.
So be aware of the process, dear Penguin, and know that you have friends here in various stages of recovery and growth who so understand your concerns. You are wise to garner their lessons learned and wisdom.
Lots of observing and informal talks with people would help-- I am not interested at all in being a Sunday church person but my spouse does goes occassionally to a non denominational church....I went once for a wedding reception. :)-->
For some folks, doctrine is THE dertermining factor, for others, the way people act is the most important thing, for still others, the social/activities aspect, for some, it's a combination that varies from person to person.
What to ask a pastor/minister/guru will vary and be determined by the priorities of the person seeking
I bring up the reason about the way people act, cause some people act kind of weird if you've tried their church and then decide it's not for you..I live in a fairly small town too. It's like if you run into them somewhere they kind of look at you funny like what are YOU doing here? Who the h* are you? (not LOL but in a way it is).
Personal priorities do matter, and they vary from each individual to the next.
Doctrine is important for me (personally) but over the years I've begun to overlook the differences that I may have doctrinally with whatever outfit I chose to go to that particular sunday, in order that I could just enjoy the fellowship, companionship, interaction, or whatever.
(None of them serve good coffee, so I surely don't go for that!) :D-->
If you were in my shoes, what questions would you ask this pastor to try to make sure it won't be another twi?
I would only have a *sit-down* with the pastor, if I intended to join.
My biggest priority in hanging out with any one church/ denomination/ group would be that they accept me for who I am, and NOT pressure me into joining their organization. If they start telling me what I NEED to do, that's when it is time to shake dust.
However -- if I am accepted and included in church activities without *membership* status, that to me is a really positive sign. And that leads to the catch-22 in this equation. :)-->
If I feel comfortable with (whomever) and they are comfortable with me, why sit down with the pastor?
He might tell me something that *they* (doctrinally) believe that I don't believe, and then I might feel uncomfortable around the folks I have grown to like because of their acceptance of me, regardless of doctrine.
I would only *join*, if I felt no pressure on me to do so. But if there was no pressure, I would feel comfortable also (Bullinger) just hanging out with them weekly, bi-weekly, monthly, whatever -- and still feel like I belonged. :)-->
and --- I should mention that since twi daze, I've looked at Pentecostal, Evangelical, Methodist, Inter-denominational, JW, Baptist, Messianic, as well as twi off shoots (but off-shoots don't count -- cause there are none around here).
Of all of these -- the most friendly folk I found willing to accept me for who I am, regardless of what I think (doctrinally), were the Baptists.
However -- if I am accepted and included in church activities without *membership* status, that to me is a really positive sign. And that leads to the catch-22 in this equation.
That is a good quality of a church IMHO. No pressure to become a "member". I have fully enjoyed churches who believe in water baptism. I had one lady at my small group who said I should consider getting re-baptized. I told her I didn't feel the need to do it. She said "Sure, the Lord will let you know." No pressure. That's what I like.
I also think that if you don't believe all of the church's doctrine and are still accepted, that shows a lot of love and grace in their hearts. If you are arguing about doctrine, then that could be a different story. But if you are able to talk about doctrinal issues and question them without being "marked", then that is a good church also imho. :D-->
and --- I should mention that since twi daze, I've looked at Pentecostal, Evangelical, Methodist, Inter-denominational, JW, Baptist, Messianic, as well as twi off shoots (but off-shoots don't count -- cause there are none around here).
Of all of these -- the most friendly folk I found willing to accept me for who I am, regardless of what I think (doctrinally), were the Baptists.
Is JW what I think it is? (Jehovah's W?) So did you choose a baptist church then?
That is a good quality of a church IMHO. No pressure to become a "member". I have fully enjoyed churches who believe in water baptism. I had one lady at my small group who said I should consider getting re-baptized. I told her I didn't feel the need to do it. She said "Sure, the Lord will let you know." No pressure. That's what I like.
That's really good! Maybe this lady thought you should get re-baptized to be part of the church? But that is great- no pressure! What a relief huh!
I'm glad you like this church, but for me, the issue I had with some churches is they don't believe in the gifts of the spirit and it was hard to be quiet (but I was) when stuff like this came up in sunday school and I knew I could not go against the grain there. I mean, they give their reason/scripture why they believe this as they do.
But all baptist churches are not equal. LOL YOurs sounds fine!
Jan
I also think that if you don't believe all of the church's doctrine and are still accepted, that shows a lot of love and grace in their hearts. If you are arguing about doctrine, then that could be a different story. But if you are able to talk about doctrinal issues and question them without being "marked", then that is a good church also imho.
"What do you say to your pastor at a time like this?"
I don't think you should talk to him about doctrine. No church is perfect. No body is perfect. That being said, a short answer is to pick a church you can live with being a part of.
TWI was obsessed with doctrine. The whole accuracy and integrity thing - - Given what we now know about how accurate TWi wasn't, we probably wouldn't choose them either!
One church I used to attend regularly for about 3 years actually... when I first started attending, a asked to meet with the senior pastor privately. I told him, "I was deeply involved with The Way for many, many years. Worked on their staff, worked closely w/Wierwille, himself. I'm no longer a part of their ministry." Then asked him, :Are you gonna have a problem if I attend your church."
I point-blanked him on the issue. He said, "It depends." We had a nice conversation around the theme of, "I'd rather focus on things we agree on and have in common than things we may have to argue about." His part of the conversation had a good bit to do with "what we believe here." We agreed that we could handle our differences if and when they came up.
I think you're gonna find doctrinal differences with ANY mainstream church.
There were things along the way over the years that I didn't necessarily agree with, doctrinally. I did, however agree with the basic philosophy and direction of the church. I could live with it, so I did. God taught me a LOT of stuff there. I learned how NOT to be so narrow-minded on what GOD's omnipotent purpose for His Word is. (Imagine that?) It was SOOO cool hearing the same things taught from a different perspective. It even more cool hearing things taught that contradicted TWI's teachings. God helped me to "prove all things and hold fast to the good."
Now I'm very much at home in a different church, been there going on 8 years. I never joined the first church and have been a member where I am now for a few years. (I didn't take notice of when I joined - - don't remember.) At my current church, being a member gives you the right to vote on major financial matters for the church and elect official church board leadership as well as allowing you to be elected to the board. Its pretty much inconsequential otherwise.
I can live with that. Our senior pastor does a monthly "Meet the Pastor" meet & greet casual conversational type get together for new folk. He asked us what we thought about the services. I asked him if he could "loosen up a little & let more of his personality out when he spoke. He's a double doctrate highly educated and formally eloquent guy from the pulpit. I asked him if he could be a little less formal.
He said, "That's a little rough for me, but I'll give it a try."
I could live with that. He listened to me, some new guy. Lots of folks in the room were nodding about him being a little stiff & formal with a bit much of a vocabulary (even his wife! :-).
What I'm getting at, is ask your guy questions that mean something to you. I didn't have many just in case you're like TWI questions to ask because the church already is up front about stuff like that. Eg: A week ago Sunday we brought in a little over $71,000 in tithes & offerings... and we're about $4,000 behind our budget for the fiscal year, which started on Sept 1. The amount of $$ we bring in each week is published in the program the following week. Even strangers, visitors and whomever can see the bucks we bring in. We have an annual meeting every year in Sept. where members get an anuual report that itemizes budget and spending for the previous and projections for the current year.
The church charter requires that purchases over a certain amount are approved by a simple majority of the membership. SUch expenditures are discussed in an open mike meeting wher anyone can speak their piece about it. The board governs the church - six men of honest report full of the holy spirit and wisdom are elected to revolving two year terms. Each year guys go off the board and others elected and others stay on the board so there is stability and fresh blood every year.
I know this is long, but it also, I think gives you some of the things I learned about my church that made me comfortable with it before joing as a member. Now I'm part of the core ministry leadership team. I have some say in what we do, some events and even make budget proposals to submit to the board. We're a big church with about a $3mil yearly budget to work with.
Basically my church is a lot of what TWI at its best wanted to be and it wants to grow into l a lot of what TWI was.... a church in many locations. Currently we have two. We have what we call small groups (like twigs) that meet in people's homes all over the area. We're trying to grow that into the main meeting system of the church, but its hard as people think the basic Sunday & Wednesday night service model.
In theory you should be aqble to walk into a church and say, "hi I'm home."
As somebody else said. all churches are NOT created equal.
Gotta find one you can live with. God will help you, He knows your heart, which to me seems in the right place.
I would hit the road if a church consistently had classes and pressured people to attend. That is a HUGE no-no in my book. I won't sit through anymore darn classes.
We did study the "Purpose Driven Life" book in our small group for a while. The thing I liked is if I didn't read the assignment that week, there was no condemnation from anyone. They realized that people had lives outside church. My way is to always have a comment about something, so I was one of the more active talkers in the discussion.
From what I've seen most contemporary churches offer tons of classes on every topic from A to Z. I can't speak for a whole lot of churches, but the one I attend doesn't pressure people to take them.
We try to offer classes that people actually WANT to take. Several years ago after having done the "Purpose Driven Life" study thing, our senior pastor got inspired to alter the entire group of classes we offer. We now call our entire program "A Path With a Purpose" where we went through the process of first identifying then categorizing all of our classes, seminars, etc. into a "path" of the development a person would go through from "1st Base" when a person first is introduced to "the Christian life." through where he becomes a lifelong committed follower of Jesus Christ.
The classes are split into "Bases" (using a baseball diamond analogy) and speak toward the "what do I do now?" questions people have in their growth in their walk w/God.
Wayfer Not!. I really feel you on your "I won't sit through any more darn classes" position. There are churches out there however who simply offer classes and work HARD to develop classes people might actually WANT to take.
Eg. We started a class last Sunday... "Parenting Your Teenager." The materials come from "somewhere out there" and are taught by people who have some actual credentials, education, and experience, not to mention spiritual insight which actually qualifies them to speak to the issues they bring up. We had about 150 people crammed into the biggest meeting room we have. People obviously have issues with and want to learn about, get (and GIVE) pointers on discuss, etc. raising teens.
I had a great experience with my #1 kid, who's away at college now, but hey, if there is a tid bit I can pick up, I'm all ears. They class format involves breaking out into small groups, forming relationships, discussing and praying and partnering together to deal with the issues that come up and are spoken of in the videos. "Qualified" lay people from the congregation facilitate the class. It costs $5.00 to pay for the class workbook. If you can't afford one, they'll give one to you - - no problem.
Quite the antithesis from the TWI class thing, isn't it? We do, have certain classes that are "mandatory" to become a member of the church. Not the coersion twi, type thing but a more common sense approach.... How can you become a member without knowing what this group is about? That sorta thing.
Nobody double checks if you actually took the classes or not. Its more of a postitive thing. I took them all because I was interested in hearing what they had to say. People who speak up are welcome, they usually have something valuable to say!
I may be ready to try to find a church. One I have some interest in is having a question/answer session with the pastor. If you were in my shoes, what questions would you ask this pastor to try to make sure it won't be another twi?
The problem is, so many of the abusive churches have these rote answers. I'd try this one:
What happens if I don't show up for a while, then I come back? What do I have to do to get back into the church's good graces?
After serious consideration and meditation, the burning question I would have to ask is "How often do you have covered dish dinners?"
I went back to the Methodist Church which is how I grew up. They actually do things to help people with needs in the community and welcome everyone with love and don't clobber them over the head with doctrines.
I think Ron has a great point there. How do the churches (and associated denominations where applicable) put the Gospel in practice? That, in a big way, shows their true character and is a sign of "fruit," as much as anything.
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rascal
Penguine, I look for love plain and simple.
We have a wonderfull methodist minister who`s love transcends the doctrinal barrier.
I have seen churches here that have it, and those who don`t ....denomination doesn`t seem to factor in whether or not they love God and love one another.
I have also seen churches that were great for a while....but change and attempt to go down a dark path.
My opinion would be based on how the minister conducted themselves....when they answere your questions...do they honestly care about you....or are they on a recruiting mission?
Be prepared to sample a variety ... it is almost like chosing a new favorite restaurant...you go and if you enjoy ...continue...
I have found that docrtinal issues matter a whole lot less than how they honor the two great commandments...
I have also found that though they be doctrinaly on a different page than I was...DIDN`T necessarily mean that they didn1t have something to teach me :-)
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Jan
I would like to add that sometimes you have to visit somewheres at least twice or even a month when the "new visitor" status wears off and you see things as they are. Since we moved to AZ we have not had a church home we wanted to stay with permanently. To me it is not just about doctrine, although that is primary, but how people treat each other, what is available there.
Jan
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markomalley
First, you can't blow off the doctrine issues. If you have conflicts with a given church in regards to doctrine, it will surface at some point in time and will cause a major conflict. That time may be weeks, months, or years. But it will come.
If you fully subscribe to TWI doctrine in your heart of hearts and are unmovable on it, then that's one thing. If you are willing to acknowledge that traditional orthodox Christianity may have something to offer in their theology and are willing to examine their theology based upon its own merits, rather than comparing where it is in disagreement with the TWI theology, then you need to resolve within yourself that they might be right and you're willing to listen and possibly learn.
I say the above because I found myself being offended for years and years going into and out of churches because they taught what I believed was non-Biblical teaching. I had to get myself to the point of understanding that TWI might have been wrong and they might be right. Once I did that, it was a lot easier.
The second thing to consider is the liturgy. Are you looking for something that is contemporary and relaxed or something that is traditional and reverent (not that contemporary can't be reverent). Are you looking for something where most of the emphasis is a preacher talking or where the emphasis is on the prayers?
Although TWI and offshoots are decidedly non-liturgical, I would encourage you to learn about the liturgical ceremonies used by such churches as the Eastern Orthodox, the Byzantine Catholics, the Copts, High Church Anglicans, or the Roman Catholics. There is a huge amount of symbolism in their liturgies that, if you appreciate it, is very, very profound and actually makes for a very rich experience.
On the other extreme, if you want a place where people live and let live, you may wish to check out a Unitarian-Universalist church. You should not be at all dogged out for any beliefs you may hold, but, on the other hand, you have to acknowledge that others have the right to hold their beliefs...even if they are offensive to you.
But the issue is that you will want to understand whatever church from their perspective.
And then how does that church apply their beliefs in their practices and policies?
One thing you might want to do is to go to Barnes and Noble and get a book on comparative religion, so that you can understand, on a basic level, what their beliefs are.
One other thing is that if you can live with a group's beliefs but don't like a particular congregation/parish/whatever, go check out another congregation/parish/whatever who are part of the same denomination. All churches are not created equal.
As an example, there are three Catholic churches in Laurel, Maryland. Two of them are Latin Rite (i.e., Roman Catholic), one is Byzantine Rite. One of the Latin Rite churches is virtually empty. They don't have any programs going on, no school for their kids, very little activity at all, and attendence is down. The other is packed to overflowing, has a school for the kids, lots of sports activities, a boy scout troop, girl scout troop, teen clubs, young adult groups, and, in fact, they are looking at expanding to 8 masses a weekend, because they are overflowing with the 7 masses (1 Saturday, 5 Sunday in English, 1 Sunday in Spanish) they have scheduled now. I've heard that other denominations have the same situation...some growing, some shrinking.
Sorry for this being disorganized, but its just some stray thoughts on the matter.
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jardinero
Excellent thoughts on the subject, Mark. I wish I had had that perspective when I was first looking for a church fit.
Good advice in there, Penguin. And through personal experience, I'll add the following - - I think it takes visiting a number of churches for a bit after being involved in a rigid, non-compromising organization like twi. One or two visits probably won't give you the entire picture -- and through each visit, you'll be "unlearning" your twi experience. So, Mark's advice to read and research is wise indeed.
One of the things to which ex-twi posters here can probably attest is that your whole vocabulary, behavior, modes of communication, ability to legitimately express emotions freely, etc. - - - will be in a state of evolution for years following an exit from twi (or other controlling group, for that matter). So give it time, Penguin - - and recognize that spouses and children will also be going through those same changes - - ON THEIR OWN TIMING!!!! What is "suddenly" acceptable to your spouse, may not be to you at that particular time - - and vice versa.
So breathe, pray, reflect, sort, weed, reflect again, re-assess, get mad, rant and rave, pray some more, re-reflect - - it's all a process, a journey, an adventure - - which you will probably enjoy at points and probably won't enjoy at other points.
One last note - - whenever you leave something that you've dedicated and invested a lot of time and energy in - - there's no doubt going to be some time of grieving and sense of loss. I'm sure if you've been reading here at gsc with any sensitivity, you'll observe some of the stages of grief here - - Denial and Isolation; Anger; bargaining; Depression and Acceptance. These are evident in people's lives who experience a death, a loss of a relationship, or in this case, the loss of something you were involved in that held value and has been exposed as something other than what it was first thought to be.
So be aware of the process, dear Penguin, and know that you have friends here in various stages of recovery and growth who so understand your concerns. You are wise to garner their lessons learned and wisdom.
Yours in the journey,
J.
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roadrunner
Lots of observing and informal talks with people would help-- I am not interested at all in being a Sunday church person but my spouse does goes occassionally to a non denominational church....I went once for a wedding reception.
:)-->
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Oakspear
Good post, Mark.
For some folks, doctrine is THE dertermining factor, for others, the way people act is the most important thing, for still others, the social/activities aspect, for some, it's a combination that varies from person to person.
What to ask a pastor/minister/guru will vary and be determined by the priorities of the person seeking
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Jan
I bring up the reason about the way people act, cause some people act kind of weird if you've tried their church and then decide it's not for you..I live in a fairly small town too. It's like if you run into them somewhere they kind of look at you funny like what are YOU doing here? Who the h* are you? (not LOL but in a way it is).
Jan
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dmiller
Nice reply Oak.
:)-->
Personal priorities do matter, and they vary from each individual to the next.
Doctrine is important for me (personally) but over the years I've begun to overlook the differences that I may have doctrinally with whatever outfit I chose to go to that particular sunday, in order that I could just enjoy the fellowship, companionship, interaction, or whatever.
(None of them serve good coffee, so I surely don't go for that!)
:D-->
David
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dmiller
Woops -- didn't answer the original question.
-->
I would only have a *sit-down* with the pastor, if I intended to join.
My biggest priority in hanging out with any one church/ denomination/ group would be that they accept me for who I am, and NOT pressure me into joining their organization. If they start telling me what I NEED to do, that's when it is time to shake dust.
However -- if I am accepted and included in church activities without *membership* status, that to me is a really positive sign. And that leads to the catch-22 in this equation.
:)-->
If I feel comfortable with (whomever) and they are comfortable with me, why sit down with the pastor?
He might tell me something that *they* (doctrinally) believe that I don't believe, and then I might feel uncomfortable around the folks I have grown to like because of their acceptance of me, regardless of doctrine.
I would only *join*, if I felt no pressure on me to do so. But if there was no pressure, I would feel comfortable also (Bullinger) just hanging out with them weekly, bi-weekly, monthly, whatever -- and still feel like I belonged.
:)-->
David
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dmiller
and --- I should mention that since twi daze, I've looked at Pentecostal, Evangelical, Methodist, Inter-denominational, JW, Baptist, Messianic, as well as twi off shoots (but off-shoots don't count -- cause there are none around here).
Of all of these -- the most friendly folk I found willing to accept me for who I am, regardless of what I think (doctrinally), were the Baptists.
Go figure!
--> 
:D-->
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Nottawayfer
That is a good quality of a church IMHO. No pressure to become a "member". I have fully enjoyed churches who believe in water baptism. I had one lady at my small group who said I should consider getting re-baptized. I told her I didn't feel the need to do it. She said "Sure, the Lord will let you know." No pressure. That's what I like.
I also think that if you don't believe all of the church's doctrine and are still accepted, that shows a lot of love and grace in their hearts. If you are arguing about doctrine, then that could be a different story. But if you are able to talk about doctrinal issues and question them without being "marked", then that is a good church also imho.
:D-->
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Jan
Is JW what I think it is? (Jehovah's W?) So did you choose a baptist church then?
Jan
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Jan
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HCW
Looking for a new church?
"What do you say to your pastor at a time like this?"
I don't think you should talk to him about doctrine. No church is perfect. No body is perfect. That being said, a short answer is to pick a church you can live with being a part of.
TWI was obsessed with doctrine. The whole accuracy and integrity thing - - Given what we now know about how accurate TWi wasn't, we probably wouldn't choose them either!
One church I used to attend regularly for about 3 years actually... when I first started attending, a asked to meet with the senior pastor privately. I told him, "I was deeply involved with The Way for many, many years. Worked on their staff, worked closely w/Wierwille, himself. I'm no longer a part of their ministry." Then asked him, :Are you gonna have a problem if I attend your church."
I point-blanked him on the issue. He said, "It depends." We had a nice conversation around the theme of, "I'd rather focus on things we agree on and have in common than things we may have to argue about." His part of the conversation had a good bit to do with "what we believe here." We agreed that we could handle our differences if and when they came up.
I think you're gonna find doctrinal differences with ANY mainstream church.
There were things along the way over the years that I didn't necessarily agree with, doctrinally. I did, however agree with the basic philosophy and direction of the church. I could live with it, so I did. God taught me a LOT of stuff there. I learned how NOT to be so narrow-minded on what GOD's omnipotent purpose for His Word is. (Imagine that?) It was SOOO cool hearing the same things taught from a different perspective. It even more cool hearing things taught that contradicted TWI's teachings. God helped me to "prove all things and hold fast to the good."
Now I'm very much at home in a different church, been there going on 8 years. I never joined the first church and have been a member where I am now for a few years. (I didn't take notice of when I joined - - don't remember.) At my current church, being a member gives you the right to vote on major financial matters for the church and elect official church board leadership as well as allowing you to be elected to the board. Its pretty much inconsequential otherwise.
I can live with that. Our senior pastor does a monthly "Meet the Pastor" meet & greet casual conversational type get together for new folk. He asked us what we thought about the services. I asked him if he could "loosen up a little & let more of his personality out when he spoke. He's a double doctrate highly educated and formally eloquent guy from the pulpit. I asked him if he could be a little less formal.
He said, "That's a little rough for me, but I'll give it a try."
I could live with that. He listened to me, some new guy. Lots of folks in the room were nodding about him being a little stiff & formal with a bit much of a vocabulary (even his wife! :-).
What I'm getting at, is ask your guy questions that mean something to you. I didn't have many just in case you're like TWI questions to ask because the church already is up front about stuff like that. Eg: A week ago Sunday we brought in a little over $71,000 in tithes & offerings... and we're about $4,000 behind our budget for the fiscal year, which started on Sept 1. The amount of $$ we bring in each week is published in the program the following week. Even strangers, visitors and whomever can see the bucks we bring in. We have an annual meeting every year in Sept. where members get an anuual report that itemizes budget and spending for the previous and projections for the current year.
The church charter requires that purchases over a certain amount are approved by a simple majority of the membership. SUch expenditures are discussed in an open mike meeting wher anyone can speak their piece about it. The board governs the church - six men of honest report full of the holy spirit and wisdom are elected to revolving two year terms. Each year guys go off the board and others elected and others stay on the board so there is stability and fresh blood every year.
I know this is long, but it also, I think gives you some of the things I learned about my church that made me comfortable with it before joing as a member. Now I'm part of the core ministry leadership team. I have some say in what we do, some events and even make budget proposals to submit to the board. We're a big church with about a $3mil yearly budget to work with.
Basically my church is a lot of what TWI at its best wanted to be and it wants to grow into l a lot of what TWI was.... a church in many locations. Currently we have two. We have what we call small groups (like twigs) that meet in people's homes all over the area. We're trying to grow that into the main meeting system of the church, but its hard as people think the basic Sunday & Wednesday night service model.
In theory you should be aqble to walk into a church and say, "hi I'm home."
As somebody else said. all churches are NOT created equal.
Gotta find one you can live with. God will help you, He knows your heart, which to me seems in the right place.
Later.
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Nottawayfer
I would hit the road if a church consistently had classes and pressured people to attend. That is a HUGE no-no in my book. I won't sit through anymore darn classes.
We did study the "Purpose Driven Life" book in our small group for a while. The thing I liked is if I didn't read the assignment that week, there was no condemnation from anyone. They realized that people had lives outside church. My way is to always have a comment about something, so I was one of the more active talkers in the discussion.
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HCW
From what I've seen most contemporary churches offer tons of classes on every topic from A to Z. I can't speak for a whole lot of churches, but the one I attend doesn't pressure people to take them.
We try to offer classes that people actually WANT to take. Several years ago after having done the "Purpose Driven Life" study thing, our senior pastor got inspired to alter the entire group of classes we offer. We now call our entire program "A Path With a Purpose" where we went through the process of first identifying then categorizing all of our classes, seminars, etc. into a "path" of the development a person would go through from "1st Base" when a person first is introduced to "the Christian life." through where he becomes a lifelong committed follower of Jesus Christ.
The classes are split into "Bases" (using a baseball diamond analogy) and speak toward the "what do I do now?" questions people have in their growth in their walk w/God.
Wayfer Not!. I really feel you on your "I won't sit through any more darn classes" position. There are churches out there however who simply offer classes and work HARD to develop classes people might actually WANT to take.
Eg. We started a class last Sunday... "Parenting Your Teenager." The materials come from "somewhere out there" and are taught by people who have some actual credentials, education, and experience, not to mention spiritual insight which actually qualifies them to speak to the issues they bring up. We had about 150 people crammed into the biggest meeting room we have. People obviously have issues with and want to learn about, get (and GIVE) pointers on discuss, etc. raising teens.
I had a great experience with my #1 kid, who's away at college now, but hey, if there is a tid bit I can pick up, I'm all ears. They class format involves breaking out into small groups, forming relationships, discussing and praying and partnering together to deal with the issues that come up and are spoken of in the videos. "Qualified" lay people from the congregation facilitate the class. It costs $5.00 to pay for the class workbook. If you can't afford one, they'll give one to you - - no problem.
Quite the antithesis from the TWI class thing, isn't it? We do, have certain classes that are "mandatory" to become a member of the church. Not the coersion twi, type thing but a more common sense approach.... How can you become a member without knowing what this group is about? That sorta thing.
Nobody double checks if you actually took the classes or not. Its more of a postitive thing. I took them all because I was interested in hearing what they had to say. People who speak up are welcome, they usually have something valuable to say!
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Raf
The problem is, so many of the abusive churches have these rote answers. I'd try this one:
What happens if I don't show up for a while, then I come back? What do I have to do to get back into the church's good graces?
If there's ANY hesitation in the answer, RUN.
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penguin
Thanks for all your suggestions. I have them logged into the back of my "what do I do next?" notebook. lol
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Ron G.
After serious consideration and meditation, the burning question I would have to ask is "How often do you have covered dish dinners?"
I went back to the Methodist Church which is how I grew up. They actually do things to help people with needs in the community and welcome everyone with love and don't clobber them over the head with doctrines.
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markomalley
Penguin,
I think Ron has a great point there. How do the churches (and associated denominations where applicable) put the Gospel in practice? That, in a big way, shows their true character and is a sign of "fruit," as much as anything.
Something else good to consider...
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