Is not God the object of our affection, worship, etc.?
An object would be a noun. A person, place or thing. If anyTHING, God would be a Proper Noun. But, He isn't really a thing, maybe the thing, no that doesn't sound right, either. What kind of question is this anyway? A trick?
Your examples of hell are not what the standard religions define hell as, unless you are trying to say that the real hell would be worse than all the examples.
Either way, your examples only point out that life sucks occasionally and that nirvana is a theory, not a reality.
Death is proven daily. People die daily. You can observe their bodies rot away (apparently on the streets nowadays, if you're in New Orleans).
Your examples of hell are not what the standard religions define hell as, unless you are trying to say that the real hell would be worse than all the examples.
true dat...my scenarios are not nearly the same as the mythic translations, although word-for-word, if you strip the mere written-of and spoken-of dogmas and myths, wouldn't most of those archaic translations still apply in the experiential situations i mentioned?
and like i said, do we need a "real" place called hell that is worse than the examples?
would not the madman be a "prince in and of Hell?"
what could be worse being that burnt babe? for even a minute?
and ok, nirvana, or heaven...sameish thingish, i imagine
if a woman gives birth to the most beautiful child in the world, or a grandfather holds his grandchild for the first time (for that moment, looking in each others' eyes as if the one and selfsame single being), would that not be an experience of joy and peace that is outside of time? Some sort of radical unity that is beyond words (as "heaven" is often described)
if a world-class surfer hits the most gnarly curls ever, or a downhill skier is zipping along at breakneck speed, breaking world records, would they not be in this state of mind that is out of time...a seemingly endless moment of blissful, dreamy "reality?"
now imagine a world where everyone is taken care of, and living healthy, exciting, peaceful lives...could this not be a state of heaven manifest outwardly into the physical earth, pretty much as scripture describes, without all the magic and unicorns (yet more "magical" than even that?)?
or imagine a person describing such a peaceful and transforming interior experience that they describe as blindingly and wonderfully inexplainable, that they actually, in reality give away all their earthly possessions and for the rest of their life, do nothing but selfless good deeds without being asked? Even to the point of reshaping thought in an entire corner of the world? One might not able to prove what they experienced, but their life sure speaks for itself. I mean, who on earth can simply rationally decide to do such an insane thing without having experienced some "actual" state of "reality" that seems to have made them "snap."
:)-->
quote:
Death is proven daily. People die daily. You can observe their bodies rot away
ok, but do we actually see anything that we might consider a "soul" or "spirit" die as well?
or did we just see the body rot?
now, i know that the "proof of soul or spirit" is always questionable (as it should be),
but that kinda gets back to my questions of objectivity, i think
when you look at your living body, is it the object or subject?
unless you are trying to say that the real hell would be worse than all the examples.
yeah. there may be a place that is actually somehow worse than all the examples. I mean, imagine what joy a simply physical birth might bring, if some fragment of sentience was in some tormenting hellish state of being, and did not understand a thing about why (let alone the passage of time).
or if after a Hitlerish type dies, part of himself finds himself even less satisfied, but just as hungry, yet has no body, and has forgetten his name, or who he was, or what a human is, and is just these lingering ugly desires that can no longer carry out their will (having no one to boss around or kill?)?
or a cow, stricken with disease, being torn apart by hyenas? must there always be yet another special magical otherwordly place for such pain to play out?
I'm really not following you, but a simple answer to your original question about God et. al. being an object is: The question cannot be answered.
For something to be an object, it must first have existance. Since existance is not established, determining what type of existance it is is a fruitless exercise.
The only concrete existence God, heaven, hell have is in the mind of believers. Until some other form of existance is established, the mental exercise is pointless.
The only concrete existence God, heaven, hell have is in the mind of believers. Until some other form of existance is established, the mental exercise is pointless.
are you saying that these minds are then pointless? or that useless mental excercises are not some actual objects in reality?
quote:
For something to be an object, it must first have existance. Since existance is not established, determining what type of existance it is is a fruitless exercise.
but without such an exercise, would you have ever been able to come to that conclusion?
(btw - i hope you know Bob, not picking at you with all these quotes and questions. nor do i expcet anyone to answer them all or anything. i really do appreciate you playing along like this)
I Cor. 2:14 "...the natural man receives not the things of the spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually understood."
God came down to our level, by contacting us through our senses, hence, the written Word. That's how we get to know him. How many people who don't want to know God would actually read the Bible to prove His existence?
so curious...are you saying that God is an object again?
if so, what might that do to the rest of your statement in that post?
quote:
There is a grand focal objective in every step of creation.
Yeah. that is a good one.
And so, again, is God ever an object?
or any one of these steps of creation?
(even the first step would be an object with form, no?)
Are both father and Father objects?
Is this Love that laid the foundation some sort of object?
(sorry if this is annoying, and i know we can probably do this all day, but i would hope that any claimants of representing God (or even some any sort of anti-God) would be highly interested (if not highly skilled) in answering these kinds of questions, especially in light of all the usual fingerpointing regarding idolatry, self-deception, or other general notions of godlessness)
so curious...are you saying that God is an object again?"
No, I believe that would make God the subject.
"if so, what might that do to the rest of your statement in that post?"
Did I contradict myself? What was my objective anyway?
"And so, again, is God ever an object?"
Yes, He is the object of our affection, etc.
"Are both father and Father objects?"
Now, you are really get picky...
"Is this Love that laid the foundation some sort of object?"
No, that would be the foundation.
Yes, we could go on all day. I may not know all the rules of English, but I know the concept most of the time. It was my job in this great star-spangled universe of ours.
IE, for the sake of meaningful discussion, if nothing else, i'm kinda hoping you can explain what you mean by that.
one can only guess, ya know?
(except for the lalalalala part, that's easy..;)-->)
btw - i like how you brought up "tricks"
started a chain of wonderings...
ok, and seeing as how we say that sin and evil, like suffering and delusion, are pretty much mostly everywhere in some exotic form or another
maybe someone here can help me find out if these wonderings are good or evil
or interesting or boring or annoying
or smart or stupid or useful
whatever
(btw - IE, though it might seem like i am talking directly to you
please know that i am not. these questions are for anyone
so please dont take it as some sort of barrage
we are all in this together, right?)
:)-->
ok?
ok, if there are trick questions
are there trick sayings?
trick statements?
suggestions?
answers?
and what makes something a "trick," anyway?
and...would it be useful to say that there are also "good" tricks and "bad" tricks?
like forging a check versus...
pretending the spoon is an airplane so some innocent cherub will giggle and open their mouth for some yum yums
:D-->
ok, bear with me y'all....
(and feel free to jump in and chop this ole dragon into as many pieces as you like)
would it be valuable to assume that the values of the "trick" can be measured by aspects in both cause and effect?
(chop!)
and are there good and useful trick questions than you can consciously ask yourself, or statements that you consciously tell yourself, via your own God-given freewill choice?
(chop chop chop chop)
are there any limits to the variety of tricks?
(choppity chop chop chop chop)
:P-->
the reason i ask this kinda stuff, is cuz i not only think these kinds of questions are important, but can also be very rewarding
(seeing as how we are all climbing out from under some sort of delusions and deception or other, no?)
i also ask because of how so many in the world say (and so much louder) that they somehow possess or hold or otherwise basically have the actual best and most purest expression of the True Living Word of God, and that this might somehow make them most able to make the most moral and ethical decisions, or some such thing...yada yada yada
yet questions are often the first thing to go
(except for the chosen questions, of course)
like how we were more or less taught to fear questions in PFAL
(except Vic's own cocktail of trick questions)
but what is the first manifestatation of holy spirit?
(not according to Vic, but Paul?)
word of wisdom, right?
and that make me wonder, if the spirit is wording out wisdom...and then knowledge,
might punctuation play a role in the distinction?
like the proverbial question being wiser than an answer?
is it possible that the serpent was supposed to question things?
but to be "wise as serpents and harmless as doves" was a big part of the new kid's trick?
not only lovingly lifts up the serpent, but by doing so, lovingly trumps it as well?
would this not be wiser than even the serpent?
and maybe even more valuable than simply questioning the "reality" of any given thing
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sirguessalot
also, this not meant to be a quiz, really
more like a primer
or stir stick
or a wind that blows on the embers of our soul
"play," perhaps, is most apt
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Bob
Everything mentioned is a theory, unproven, except for death. That is a reality.
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GarthP2000
Well, death, taxes, ... and really *sucky* TV reality shows.
:P-->
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sirguessalot
hi, Bob
wow. very interesting statement
ok, and so i wonder a few things about the object of proof...
if you are saying "hell" has no proof, for example
what would you say to a village of women and children and old people covered in burns?
or a heroin addict, alone in a gutter at the bottom end of a detox?
or a one-time passionate dreamer, now bored, depressed, alone, uninterested in much, trapped in a dead end job?
or a genius madman, sitting atop an empire, so full of hatred, they would actually stimulate an organized genocide?
must there be an even worse place in human experience than these in order for any notion of hell to be "real?"
or beyond mere theory?
I mean, imagine ("Behold!"), if you will, that while in the throes of it, how one might not even be aware of the end of their torment.
Would time matter at all? Might it seem to drag on forever, like some eternal place?
Some other view of a world you or I may not even understand?
Of course, I know this is not the usual application of the H-word these days
And the same probably goes for the other things I mentioned, too
And so what of death?
(and I assume you are speaking of the death of a person, as opposed to the death of a fashion trend, or cultural era, or tree, or something)
Are you say you have proven the reality of death?
Or that other people have?
(and have somehow come back to tell us about it...lol)
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irisheyes
Is not God the object of our affection, worship, etc.?
An object would be a noun. A person, place or thing. If anyTHING, God would be a Proper Noun. But, He isn't really a thing, maybe the thing, no that doesn't sound right, either. What kind of question is this anyway? A trick?
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sirguessalot
lol. good question, irisheyes
"What kind of question is this anyway, a trick?"
yeah, in a playful sense. but i assure you, and maybe other's can vouch for me, my intentions are also good.
its more like a game, i think. or a mystery.
imo, a wise saying usually does not always have to end with a period.
does it?
lol
Jesus answered questions with questions, too, if i recall.
stuff he made up on the spot, "outta da blue," or "outta nowhere," it seemed to seem.
Paul taught Christ in a mystery
i am beginning to think this might have had to do with the good ole fashioned thrill of a whodunnit
and that is a really good point you made about God being the "object" of our affection.
offhand, it seems like some sort of old figure of speech to me.
too, i like how you suggested that God might be the thing
strange, indeed. strange like God, maybe
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Bob
Your examples of hell are not what the standard religions define hell as, unless you are trying to say that the real hell would be worse than all the examples.
Either way, your examples only point out that life sucks occasionally and that nirvana is a theory, not a reality.
Death is proven daily. People die daily. You can observe their bodies rot away (apparently on the streets nowadays, if you're in New Orleans).
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sirguessalot
true dat...my scenarios are not nearly the same as the mythic translations, although word-for-word, if you strip the mere written-of and spoken-of dogmas and myths, wouldn't most of those archaic translations still apply in the experiential situations i mentioned?
and like i said, do we need a "real" place called hell that is worse than the examples?
would not the madman be a "prince in and of Hell?"
what could be worse being that burnt babe? for even a minute?
and ok, nirvana, or heaven...sameish thingish, i imagine
if a woman gives birth to the most beautiful child in the world, or a grandfather holds his grandchild for the first time (for that moment, looking in each others' eyes as if the one and selfsame single being), would that not be an experience of joy and peace that is outside of time? Some sort of radical unity that is beyond words (as "heaven" is often described)
if a world-class surfer hits the most gnarly curls ever, or a downhill skier is zipping along at breakneck speed, breaking world records, would they not be in this state of mind that is out of time...a seemingly endless moment of blissful, dreamy "reality?"
now imagine a world where everyone is taken care of, and living healthy, exciting, peaceful lives...could this not be a state of heaven manifest outwardly into the physical earth, pretty much as scripture describes, without all the magic and unicorns (yet more "magical" than even that?)?
or imagine a person describing such a peaceful and transforming interior experience that they describe as blindingly and wonderfully inexplainable, that they actually, in reality give away all their earthly possessions and for the rest of their life, do nothing but selfless good deeds without being asked? Even to the point of reshaping thought in an entire corner of the world? One might not able to prove what they experienced, but their life sure speaks for itself. I mean, who on earth can simply rationally decide to do such an insane thing without having experienced some "actual" state of "reality" that seems to have made them "snap."
ok, but do we actually see anything that we might consider a "soul" or "spirit" die as well?
or did we just see the body rot?
now, i know that the "proof of soul or spirit" is always questionable (as it should be),
but that kinda gets back to my questions of objectivity, i think
when you look at your living body, is it the object or subject?
if an object, what or who is the subject?
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sirguessalot
to add...
yeah. there may be a place that is actually somehow worse than all the examples. I mean, imagine what joy a simply physical birth might bring, if some fragment of sentience was in some tormenting hellish state of being, and did not understand a thing about why (let alone the passage of time).
or if after a Hitlerish type dies, part of himself finds himself even less satisfied, but just as hungry, yet has no body, and has forgetten his name, or who he was, or what a human is, and is just these lingering ugly desires that can no longer carry out their will (having no one to boss around or kill?)?
or a cow, stricken with disease, being torn apart by hyenas? must there always be yet another special magical otherwordly place for such pain to play out?
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Bob
I'm really not following you, but a simple answer to your original question about God et. al. being an object is: The question cannot be answered.
For something to be an object, it must first have existance. Since existance is not established, determining what type of existance it is is a fruitless exercise.
The only concrete existence God, heaven, hell have is in the mind of believers. Until some other form of existance is established, the mental exercise is pointless.
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sirguessalot
lol. Bob. yeah, occasionally.
maybe think back through earth history, if you will, and ask yourself, does such "hell" really only come to town "occasionally?"
or is it pretty much one of the most natural conditions on earth?
if so, this too, it would seem, would jibe pretty well with scriptural stories of this place called hell
ya know, i forgot who said it first, but it is strange how someone dies and its a tragedy, but if millions die, its a statistic.
or some such thing...
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sirguessalot
are you saying that these minds are then pointless? or that useless mental excercises are not some actual objects in reality?
but without such an exercise, would you have ever been able to come to that conclusion?
(btw - i hope you know Bob, not picking at you with all these quotes and questions. nor do i expcet anyone to answer them all or anything. i really do appreciate you playing along like this)
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sirguessalot
it would seem, huh?
and so what does that leave you with?
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irisheyes
I Cor. 2:14 "...the natural man receives not the things of the spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually understood."
God came down to our level, by contacting us through our senses, hence, the written Word. That's how we get to know him. How many people who don't want to know God would actually read the Bible to prove His existence?
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irisheyes
Kenyon said is rather well:
There is a grand focal objective in every step of creation.
...Science has given no adequate reason for Creation.
If Creation is a child of blind, unreasoning, undesigning chance, Chance is a miracle woker and worth of our adoration."
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irisheyes
Furthermore,
"When Love laid the foundations of this mighty universe, He planned, He purposed it all to be the Home of His Man.
It was to be Man's birthplace, Man's Garden of Delight, Man's University where he would learn to know his Father God."
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sirguessalot
if so, what might that do to the rest of your statement in that post?
Yeah. that is a good one.And so, again, is God ever an object?
or any one of these steps of creation?
(even the first step would be an object with form, no?)
Are both father and Father objects?
Is this Love that laid the foundation some sort of object?
(sorry if this is annoying, and i know we can probably do this all day, but i would hope that any claimants of representing God (or even some any sort of anti-God) would be highly interested (if not highly skilled) in answering these kinds of questions, especially in light of all the usual fingerpointing regarding idolatry, self-deception, or other general notions of godlessness)
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irisheyes
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sirguessalot
would it be a good idea to question our understanding of God if we have come to think of God as an object?
or some thing somewhere else in the universe?
the moment we say to ourselves or someone else...
"God is here, or God is there"
"God is NOT here, or God is NOT there"
have we not just made God into a mysterious object?
something that can be lost?
something that can be found?
something with an opposite?
if God is not an object
is not then the very word "God" a figure of speech?
and not a literal truth at all?
what does the ultimate holy Subject look like, if not an object?
would it not be the purest clarity and freedom to be found?
like the eye of all eyes, clearer than glass?
and would not this widest of open spaces be called ultimate Love?
being open, and that which allows Everything to be in it?
that which simply and choicelessly allows all to be? in its infinite embrace?
like the greatest foundation that all else grows in?
and so where can the Ultimate subject be found?
how far away is "it," if it is not a thing that is?
after all, foolishness, God is called. a paradox to the carnal mind
and a mystery to trip up the author of death (who is also liar, btw) and all his illusions
and so also, God being holy spirit...
is the Holy Spirit an actual object?
like taught in churches everywhere?
something we must get put inside of us?
or perhaps another blessed figure of speech to baffle the devil inside everywhere?
(sorry if that is too much for anyone)
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irisheyes
La,lalalalalalalala rollup for the Mystery Tour
;)-->
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CM
object
subject
objective
subjective
both inward and outward
and points in between
doctrinly
practicaly
funny how these two mesh together
we (each person) are sort of a mixing bowl
to bake a cake and eat it too
changing the ingredients changes the taste
and you get a "feel" for the ingredients
that are right and even though individually
the ingredient may taste bad
when mixed with the rest it turns out
rather tasty
so even some "bad" or distasteful ingredients
are needed to bring out the best taste
which of course makes that ingredient good
are we cookin' yet?
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sirguessalot
IE, for the sake of meaningful discussion, if nothing else, i'm kinda hoping you can explain what you mean by that.
one can only guess, ya know?
(except for the lalalalala part, that's easy..
;)-->)
btw - i like how you brought up "tricks"
started a chain of wonderings...
ok, and seeing as how we say that sin and evil, like suffering and delusion, are pretty much mostly everywhere in some exotic form or another
maybe someone here can help me find out if these wonderings are good or evil
or interesting or boring or annoying
or smart or stupid or useful
whatever
(btw - IE, though it might seem like i am talking directly to you
please know that i am not. these questions are for anyone
so please dont take it as some sort of barrage
we are all in this together, right?)
ok?
ok, if there are trick questions
are there trick sayings?
trick statements?
suggestions?
answers?
and what makes something a "trick," anyway?
and...would it be useful to say that there are also "good" tricks and "bad" tricks?
like forging a check versus...
pretending the spoon is an airplane so some innocent cherub will giggle and open their mouth for some yum yums
ok, bear with me y'all....
(and feel free to jump in and chop this ole dragon into as many pieces as you like)
would it be valuable to assume that the values of the "trick" can be measured by aspects in both cause and effect?
(chop!)
and are there good and useful trick questions than you can consciously ask yourself, or statements that you consciously tell yourself, via your own God-given freewill choice?
(chop chop chop chop)
are there any limits to the variety of tricks?
(choppity chop chop chop chop)
the reason i ask this kinda stuff, is cuz i not only think these kinds of questions are important, but can also be very rewarding
(seeing as how we are all climbing out from under some sort of delusions and deception or other, no?)
i also ask because of how so many in the world say (and so much louder) that they somehow possess or hold or otherwise basically have the actual best and most purest expression of the True Living Word of God, and that this might somehow make them most able to make the most moral and ethical decisions, or some such thing...yada yada yada
yet questions are often the first thing to go
(except for the chosen questions, of course)
like how we were more or less taught to fear questions in PFAL
(except Vic's own cocktail of trick questions)
but what is the first manifestatation of holy spirit?
(not according to Vic, but Paul?)
word of wisdom, right?
and that make me wonder, if the spirit is wording out wisdom...and then knowledge,
might punctuation play a role in the distinction?
like the proverbial question being wiser than an answer?
is it possible that the serpent was supposed to question things?
but to be "wise as serpents and harmless as doves" was a big part of the new kid's trick?
not only lovingly lifts up the serpent, but by doing so, lovingly trumps it as well?
would this not be wiser than even the serpent?
and maybe even more valuable than simply questioning the "reality" of any given thing
is asking "what questions don't we know yet"
nice steaming batch o cookies there, cm
lol
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sirguessalot
and to highlight and follow a vine outta that ramble...
are there good and useful trick questions?
ones that we can consciously ask ourself?
via our own God-given freewill choice?
and are designed to open "doors?"
many inherent, some quite new?
ones we might not naturally know to ask?
or bother to ask?
or think to ask?
or care to ask?
or dare to ask?
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TheInvisibleDan
The God of this universe laughed at all our puny questions while stirring His bean soup.
Until the arrival of Jack.
And the fall of that God was great.
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