Two girls

[Shellon]

This might belong in prayer forums, I'm not sure. Either location, I need help and certainly prayers.

Pulling my mom hair out.

My daughter, Kelly, is 10 years old and in fifth grade this year at school. Last year in fourth grade, about 2 months in another little girl latched herself onto Kelly in ways that are unhealthy and almost a year later continues to be a problem.

The child somewhere along the line decided that my Kelly needed to be protected from others and she was the only one the was fit for the job.

First of all, Kelly is one of those sweet kids that is a friend to everyone, keeps her grades in A range, follows the rules etc etc. She's a puddle if she has to be unkind to another human being. That's proving to be her burden.

In the beginning I found it kind of pleasant that this other child looked after Kelly. I had no idea what was to come.

Kelly has many other friends, typical of this age child, and two "very best friends" since Kindergarten.

As last year progressed, this girl would get very angry when Kelly played with other children, spoke to them or included them in play. She'd yell, pout, walk away, say horrible things to Kelly as well as her friends. The school year got worse and worse and my "I love school and can I go on weekends too" kid started hating it, dreading it, getting strange aches in her tummy just before school.

I'm aware that kids this age, girls especially, are best friends one minute, hate each other the next and best friends the next again. This went beyond that.

I spoke with the other childs mom, asking her if she could chat with her daughter and explain that her behavior was not condusive to happy friendships. This was received well because the mom and I were friends and had been comfortable discussing things before. She agreed that her daughter was going overboard and would handle it.

My child is taught in our home that she is to be kind, generous, she's to share, she's to not exclude others in a way that embarasses them, she's to love the unlovable, all those pretty and wonderful things. She wasn't buying it.

Things only got worse. We got the teacher involved, we got the school counselor involved, we got the principal involved. Everyone seemed to gloss over the problem, filing it in some drawer marked "girls are strange".

I'm a mom, I get it; I've got two of these strange females.

This was differant, I knew it, Kelly knew it.

As if common in elementary grades, the teacher teams children up for projects, outings, in the classroom. This child somehow managed to always always always be Kelly's teammate. It seriously became an obsession that she be by Kelly's side constantly.

Carry over into evenings and weekend with phone calls.

I chose not to move Kelly into a differant classroom because I thought I would then teach her that it's ok to run from problems and the grownups would fix stuff. Same with changing phone numbers. I needed to teach her, empower her to stand up for herself against this and all types of bullies. The grownups tried to help but it wasn't working in this case.

Fast forward to May last year, end of school looming, summer will make a big differance. The two girls will be apart, Kelly will get a break, the other child will find other activities and Kelly will be but a distant memory of 4th grade.

It got worse. Enter a third little girl that was once friends with Kelly's shadow friend. The third girl, according to rumors, had stolen from miss shadow. She noticed Kelly playing with her and henceforth placed herself between them and refused to budge. She'd move her desk between them, her body, whatever it took.

More meetings with grownups. I knew the day was coming when I'd have to have input into who Kelly's friends were in the form of having to forbid some, encourage others more that the 'be nice to everyone honey'. But the alleged thief had not done Kelly any harm, had not stolen from her, we had no proof of theft and I had no reason to forbid the friendship. Kelly's shadow of course did and her mother agreed.

One mom is saying "I will not tell her she has to play with that child"

One mom is saying "I will not tell her she can't play with that child"

As bad as the kids.

Kelly in the meantime is torn apart because she enjoys her friendship with this girl, but is sick of hearing 'she steals, leave her alone' and many many other things.

I finally talked to this little girl who refused to forge other friendships than my child.

She said she was afraid Kelly would get hurt, she needed to protect her. No amount of discussion with this child, even to point of scolding her, got through.

Again enter counselor, teacher, principal. All three girls in the office and all three told they MUST play with other children and will be seperated if found together in the classroom, lunch area or playground. This also showed my daughter that punishment is the same for everyone, even the innocent.

Sure, right, uh huh. That lasted as long as the three were sitting meek and mute in that office.

The last action on my part was to work it out behind the scenes where at least for 5th grade, Kelly would not be in the other girls class. We had to keep this a secret while the girl would whail "I'll just DIE if Kelly isn't in my class next year, I will refuse to go to school if she's not in my class" .

The last two weeks of 4th grade were brutal. I finally went to the classroom as often as I could manage and sat there; I was my daughters playmate, lunch partner, classroom partner. This was not healthy and I knew it. She missed 6 days the last two weeks and I didn't care. I rearranged life to be there when she was.

Principal, teacher, counselor said I was making it worse. I even stood outside the restroom and waited because the child would follow my daughter in, hover and cling.

Last day of school and relief! For two days when the phone calls started. We were so very busy all year that it worked out to not have them connect. The phone calls were a small inconvenience in an otherwise great summer.

The night before first day of school, there is an open house/meet the teacher/see who's in your class/eat a hotdog event. Guess who was waiting at the door for Kelly?

From the time we entered the building until we left, this child was by Kelly's side. At one point she asked Kelly "we're still best friends right Kelly?" to which my sweet child answered in the affirmative. All bets were off at that response. When I got a chance, privately, I suggested to Kelly a better answer would have been "we'll see each other, but we can't be best friens because my mom won't let me have one best friend". I've said many times to blame me; I can take it.

Kelly didn't want to hurt her feelings.

It's started all over again. It sounds right there like I blame Kelly. I absolutely do not. She was doing what comes natural to her; being kind and polite.

By day two of 5th grade, my child hates school, doesn't want to go, already she's been reprimanded for trivial stuff in the classroom. This is a child who teachers usually LOVE in their classrooms. An A student, a writer, a quiet helpful student, a teachers dream student.

Bias there I know, but I'm telling ya this is a great kid, mine or not.

I phoned the principal and counselor and said that's it, she's outa there. They were shocked that this was starting again and they'd take the other child aside and tell her straight out this time that she HAS to leave Kelly alone.

Didn't happen of course. Oh they told her, but the one day it happened, she was so ugly and mean to Kelly that it only served to validate to Kelly that she's been wrong to tell, again.

I started checking other schools but the tuition to attend is ridiculously expensive, the transportation is difficult and she simply doesn't qualify for one of them.

Next year is middle school where life gets only more wierd for Kelly. One of my goals this year is to back off, put Kelly in situations where she has to stand up for herself, learn to cope without me, etc. I'm not volunteering in the classroom nearly as much this year, I'm not going into the building to pick her up; she's to take care of go home responsibilities and meet me in parking lot, etc.

She feels I've dumped her to deal with this other child alone.

I'm at a place now where I'm ready to tell Kelly to be a bi+ch if she has to. Be unkind, rude and unfriendly in every way to this other kid.

That isn't going to fit well at all on Kelly.

The bright spots in this mess are her two friends since kindergarten. They've not abandoned her. They have gone off and done other things when Kelly's shadow is present, they have waited for the times when she can be free, they've not been ugly when the other kid tells them "Kelly is playing with me, not you".

God bless them and their parents.

I'm out of ideas, our house is a nervous bundle of do I have to go to school today, exhaustion beyond normal at end of day and jumping when the phone rings.

I have even done what I am ready to have Kelly do and begun ignoring the other child's mother. My hope is that she'll decide we're a family that isn't nice and not good for her baby. Our friendship is severely dented, but I don't care and that makes me a little sad.

I'm a single mother, it's just Kelly and I in the home, Kelly's father is dead. Her sister is 3 hours away and has offered to kick some 10 year old hovering butt. Not that we didn't go there in our thinking for a nanosecond, but it's not the way to handle it.

I'm a full time student and in a couple of years will be very much less available hands on for Kelly. That's another reason I'm pushing her outa the nest a few baby steps now. It's also because I need the time to adjust.

I have considered homeschooling, but I really don't think it's right for our family. I've considered adding full time work onto school to pay for tuition at other schools. Doing that, however, would pull her out of this situation, but push us into 'mom is always gone' land.

My apologies for the length of this puppy, but I need some input, prayers.

[A la prochaine]

Shellers,

As an educator I feel that this is certainly a case of harrassment...which is a form of bullying.

I believe you have taken some very pro-active steps in trying to rectify this problem.

I think Kelly perhaps could make her desires known a little stronger to this shadow child and if she has a hissy fit for Kelly telling on her.. so be it. Kelly will only grow and strengthen from the experience and the child will get the message.

Is there a possibility of putting Kelly into another grade 5 class?

I would also put what you know and all the details into writing. Then, make a phone call to the principal's superior. The superintendant perhaps. Ask to have a meeting with this individual with all your documentation in tow. Send a copy of your documentation to the principal as well. The superintendant is usually an employee of the Board of Education who deals with complaints regarding either teachers and serious natured problems within the schools.

You have taken the right channels ... you addressed the teacher, then the principal, now you might need to go higher. It is done all the time.

Remember, you are your child's only advocate.

Keep up the great work!

[Abigail]

Shell,

Do you realize you are considering homeschooling your child because another CHILD is harassing her???? I love ya Shell, but that is insane.

Kelly is sweet and wonderful and we all hope she remains that way. But it will only get harder for her to learn to stand up for herself as she gets older. Healthy boundaries are crucial to a health adulthood.

Ever had a stalker? Kindness does not get them to go away. Even kindly asking them to go away does not get them to go away. For that matter, being a B*tch doesn't get them to go away either. The ONLY way to get them to go away is to literally ignore them - pretend they aren't there, don't exist.

Sounds harsh, yes? It is. But this child is, in a very real sense, stalking Kelly. Hold her, hug her, wipe away the tears she sheds when she feels guilty for being cruel. But tell her she has an OBLIGATION to herself to draw boundaries and maintain HEALTHY friendships. She has an obligation to herself to pretend this girl does not exist when this girl is crossing into her boundaries.

It is going to be very hard for her and for you. But better she learn this lesson now, while the price is cheap, than as a teen or young adult when it is a hormone crazed boy following her everywhere.

[Shellon]

If I'm understanding you, Abi, you are suggesting I do what I've tried to do with Kelly already. And I'm gonna continue to do so, empowering her, making her do it.

MAKE her stand up for herself.

I know she has to, she must and it's the only way she's gonna make it in this phuked up world.

What I wanna do as her mama is bring her home, protect her and never let her outa my sight. I am fully aware that she has GOT to get this in order to function in society.

She never lacks for examples of women that stand up for themselves, fight hard til the end and take no shi+.

[coolchef1248 @adelphia.net]

shell

this may sound a little harsh

but you have documantation with all of the mettings with the school etc..........

i would go to the police and have a restraining order put on the shadow

good luck my prayers are with you

your little one sounds wonderful

[Shellon]

Once again I'm not communicating myself properly.

Thanks for prayers.

[reikilady]

This other child is obviously "obsessed" with Kelly and getting her way in this situation.

The only way out of this one is probably time and Kelly not giving any emotion or attention to the other young girl at all. Stalkers feed on any attention they can get.

Shell, private topic me if you want some special assistance.

I wish for you and Kelly both to get through this quickly and as painlessly as possible.

[Dilva]

I had a similar situation with my daughter and this very dysfunctional friend of hers. My daughter felt guilty setting boundaries or hurting the other one.

Our children are just that---children. We can teach them the right behavior, but that doesn't mean putting themselves in harms way for what seems to be "the greater good".

The devil will use that against good people EVERYTIME! I mean, why do WE feel guilty and the perpetrator does not??? You cannot help someone who doesn't want it or cannot recognize they need help.

I moved my daughter----out of the area to live with her dad. It was the quickest way to break that suffocating chain. And what happened to that other girl? She just moved on to her next victim. Her parents were of no help, the school didn't help.

These are sick kids whom I believe have real problems of spiritual darkness. When conditions go beyond logic-------

[Samurai]

Hello. Second thread I am posting on.

I don't know you, you don't know me but I have daughters too.

Your daughter is at the age where she is learning to swim by herself so to speak. Sometimes they will flounder when they get into new 'waters.'

Your daughter is in new waters with this girl. Her training up to now has not covered how to deal with this type of person. But for your daughter to learn to survive now, especially in middle school when they all turn into emotional tornadoes and later in life, she will, as with everyone else in the world, learning new coping skills.

To be a well rounded person, that person is going to have to learn tell others to bug off and mean it. This is the age when my daughter had to learn to say, "f u."

It went against all I taught her; to be nice, turn the other cheek, be loving, love those who aren't accepted. Then like the diaper commerical, we had to get real.

Reality is your daughter is first responsible to lover herself and respect herself first and foremost. Only then can she be a good friend to others. Otherwise, she is a doormat. Sorry, but my family and my children had to learn the hard way too. Our children need to learn to push back when they are maltreated. It's not a pretty side to life, but one can not be good all the time to everyone. It's not possible.

So our children have to learn to be good to themselves even if that makes them feel selfish.

Your daughter, like everyone else who has had to learn this type of lesson, will have to do this by herself, you can't do it for her. You can advise her when she gets home, but you cannot do this for her. To go to school and try to separate her and that other child, no matter how annoying they are, is not helping your daughter learn the necessary coping skills she needs to deal with situations that are unpleasant. Once your child, or anyone else for that matter, gets tired of a situation and sees that no one will bail them out, they will figure out how to deal with it.

This other child cannot be removed from the school and you cannot put a restraining order on her. Don't even consider that. The child may have unhealthy attachments but she has done nothing illegal, has not threatened the life of your child.

The school cannot do more than to make sure that the girls are not in the same classroom together. They cannot make sure that they are separated during lunch or recess as that places them in a position where they can be sued by the other girl's parents. Remember, the shadow girl has done nothing deemed wrong or that puts other students in danger. The school has a line to walk as well and if the only complaint you have is that she tries to dominate your daughter's social life, I am sorry, but every judge or lawyer you would go to should you chose to take legal action would look at you like you grew another head.

This is one of those times you need to let go and let your child figure out life. Removing her from school only prolongs the problem and doesn't solve anything. There are icky people no matter where she will go and they are always people who will try to dominate and bully. The best solution is to learn how to stand up to them. Yes, that is hard. Yes, that will cause pain. Most growth experiences do revolve around pain. "Growing pains." No, you didn't bring your daughter into the world to suffer; but that is unavoidable, life is full of pain.

Having stomach aches along with other signs of anxiety is not uncommon. Perhaps the best thing you can do now for her is to seek out some type of counseling outside of the school to help her deal with it.

Being nice and loving is great but it is unbalanced if a person never learns to put down their foot every once in awhile. We have to love ourselves too and first before we can help others.

[Ron G.]

Being a daddy of boys I have little to contribute. It is a form of bullying, but boys tend to take a more direct and physical approach...at least mine would.

Sometimes, you must just get away from a situiation you aren't equipped to deal with head on, although stuff like that comes up all our lives.

The first thing that came to my mind was for Kelly to talk about it in depth with Sami. I have an idea Sami might have some creative solutions no one has thought of yet...and that's what sisters are for.

You have our prayers and thoughts.

[Shellon]

Yes she did talk to her big sister.

What Samantha told her was great advise.

Samantha told Kelly to ignore the girl. If she approaches her, act as if there is not another human being there and no voice heard.

Samantha told Kelly if she yells at her, just continue to carry on with whatever she is doing and it's the other girl who will look silly.

Samantha told Kelly to remember that she's very much loved and she can do anything she wants to do and she needs to 'get some balls' in order to do most of them.

Samantha told Kelly that we support her.

[johniam]

Use reverse psychology. Actually encourage them to be together to the point of nausea. Even include the other girls' moms in it. Then they may see how your "obsessive" behavior is theirs as well.

Whether that works or not, this situation seems like it is going to have to run its course. It's probably a better problem to have than drugs.

[Abigail]

"If I'm understanding you, Abi, you are suggesting I do what I've tried to do with Kelly already. And I'm gonna continue to do so, empowering her, making her do it.

MAKE her stand up for herself"

Yes! and No. I'm suggesting what Sami suggested. Often with adults who behave like this child is - and often with children in general, negative attention is better than no attention. So, ignore, ignore, ignore, pretend she doesn't exist.

"My child is taught in our home that she is to be kind, generous, she's to share, she's to not exclude others in a way that embarasses them, she's to love the unlovable, all those pretty and wonderful things. She wasn't buying it."

These are wonderful ideals, traits, characteristics that we would love for all of our children to possess. BUT in the real world (and that is what we have to prepare our children for) sometimes it is healthier and safer to turn our backs on the unlovable (because sometimes there is a darned good reason why they are unloveable). Sometimes it is healthier and safer to be downright rude to the unloveable. I wish I had learned these lessons as child, it would have saved me a LOT of grief as an adult.

"Kelly didn't want to hurt her feelings."

Sometimes, and I prefer only as a last resort, you have to hurt someone else's feelings in order to take care of yourself.

It is damned hard being a parent these days, eh, Shell? But you are on the right track. Hold your ground and let Kelly know you expert her to hold her ground as well.

[krys]

Another hard lesson:

You take the consequences of your choices.

Back out and off and require Kelly solve the problem herself. You have given direction...done all you can. Turning it over to Kelly means, for a while, Kelly will be bullied (shadowed). However, she hasn't taken your advice, or her older wiser sister's. Let her take her lumps.

Sooner or later, if you totally stay out...she will have to tell the shadow to bug off and make it stick.

Kelly, I'm so sorry I have to leave you alone on this shadow thing. I can't do any more, I can't fix this problem, or help you fix it. I tried, but you want me to do the impossible and control a child that's not mine to control. I can't do that.

Turn your own emotions off, and let Kelly deal with this now. Sooner or later, the words "bug off get out of my life" will emerge when she's frustrated enough, and all adults in the matter know what's going on and will take it from there.

[Abigail]

Krys,

That is very close to one of the Love and Logic principles we've begun to apply here at home.

Identify who the problem belongs to (If you worry about your child's problem your child won't, because they know they don't have to).

Let them know you believe they are capable of solving the problem by empathizing and then asking them, what are YOU going to do about it.

If the child doesn't have any ideas, offer a few, starting with the most ludicrous ones. Then, ask them how each possible solution might work out.

Tell the child, good luck with that. Let me know how it turns out. Then let them choose which solution, if any to apply.

Sounds very simple. And it is, in a sense. But, it is also very very hard to let go and let your child endure the consequences of their choice. However, one of the things I've learned is, it is better to let them suffer the little consequences while they are younger than to have them suffer the more expensive ones when they are older.

[Bramble]

My daughters were in the 10--11yr range when they began to be more selective of their friends. Before that they would play with anyone, even kids that put them down or later 'betrayed' them.(My kids' word, not mine.)There are plenty of mean girls out there, their job is to learn to identify them and say buhbye.

It helped alot to learn this in 4th and 5th grade, even though it was hard and there were lots of tears and 'I hate school' mornings.

Finally they began using caller ID to screen their phone calls and if a particular neighbor girl came over they met her at the door and said they were busy and couldn't play, shut door.

I thought we would go through the same trauma when they started middleschool a year or so later, but guess what? They made friends who were nice kids who treat them well--boys and girls-- without any hitches.

Now we're starting to enter the romantic phase--hopefully those skills will carry over.

[Nottawayfer]

I think teaching Kelly to honestly convey her feeling to the stalker. Things like "I don't want to be around you" and "Get away from me" sound harsh (especially to a child taught to be so nice), but the truth may help the stalker will "get" it. Maybe not, but it could make her go away. It may make Kelly a target for name calling, but only for awhile.

I agree that if it doesn't get resolved, I would contact the Police. That may shake up the girl and her family if they get a visit from Mr. Policeman. I especially would do this since you've gone through every avenue to resolve the situation.