I observed that those who I thought to be more fragile than I seemed to receive gentler treatment.
Saw some pretty wild things when people were dealing with their issue "front and center" so to speak. One invovled a repressed memory "playing out" as if the participant was running a DVD of the event. Pretty scary to me, but it did a lot for her. (Yes, it was of sexual abuse when she was very young).
I had a repressed memory come out too. Not as scary as that, and not in front of everybody. It was in one of the smaller group exercises.
It's this kind of thing where the workshop can get pretty dangerous I think. As far as I could tell, all of our participants came through well & glad about it...but I could see an unstable person flipping out over it.
That's more experience than I have with Momentus, but I think the analogies fit what I've read and understood about the "traning" - about what contexts participants may impose upon it. I'm sure Momentus would not define itself that way.
"Surviving" an ordeal is a status symbol. "I was there," it says.
What suppositions have I made about the group's leadership? My posts have only concerned the experience of Momentus trainees, some of whom were former TWI leadership.
Good to know that I'm in a select "elitist" group of sorts...thank God I now know who & What I was innitiated into when I took Momentus years ago.
I got alot out of the training
As others...I saw great compassion on the part of the trainers, who were dealing with those of a more timid nature.
If I had to do it over again, I would gladly have attended & gave of the extra donation at the end..proportionate to the blessings I received... No coercion from the end of it I inhabited! HONEST ENGINE
Speaking of wounds, ... you seem to be focusing a lot on that wound of yours, Oldies. The one that festers on things Way and about the people who gripe about it.
So why are you still griping, hmmm? ..... You addicted to your wound too?
I think that people indeed do get addicted to this kind of nonsense after a while.. pain does stimulate the body to produce endorphins.. and yes, after a while, I also seemed to "enjoy" such stupidity.. so "happy" to get another session of "love".. ptooie.
When some leave der vey, enough seemingly is not enough. Some seem to seek more abusive, pain inducing organizations to fill some kind of "need"..
From reading all the posts in this thread, it's clear that we are not all of "one mind" when it comes to the subject of Momentus...and that's a GOOD thing. I welcome individual thought...something that was dismally missing from our group think experience with the cornfield cult.
I will be the first to admit that I am not objective when it comes to this subject. After spending 13 years of my life in a cult, I cherish and relish the idea that I make decisions (right or wrong) of my own accord and have rejected the notion of allowing others to do that for me.
Perhaps that's one of the reasons that I soundly reject the Momentus training...if it worked for you...swell. As for me, my "secret sins" belong to me...nobody's damn business but my own. I feel no need at all, for the validation of a charismatic group of know it alls..who are hell bent on setting me straight, revealing the truth to me, enlightening my spiritual life, or leading me to some sort of self discovery...personally, I would rather think for myself and fail, than to be a part of some group think cult, riding the coattails of some enlightened guru who will lead me to the promised land of thinking just like him and the rest of his "followers"...been there, done that.
Reveal my "secret sins" to some Momentus group? How dare you??? What in the world gives anyone the right to suggest such a thing to me...or anyone else? Are you so insecure and weak and that you need some buffoon with a nametag to give wings to your spiritual life? To validate your life for you? To open the doors of self discovery for you? (as long as your discovery fits his/her dogma?)...bite my crank matey.
No...I soundly reject the outrageous idea that ANYONE has the right to know my thoughts, my personal experiences, my "secret sins", my aspirations, my beliefs, or my concepts of God and life...yell at me during a Momentus training? I'd smash his nose and walk out the door.
I don't know how much longer I will live on this earth, but I'll tell you this...anyone who tells me that they will change my life for me if I take their "class", "training" or any other indoctrinational format...had better move on to the next "prospect" who's willing to pay them the non-refundable fee to get a glimpse of the "truth"...
No...I soundly reject the outrageous idea that ANYONE has the right to know my thoughts, my personal experiences, my "secret sins", my aspirations, my beliefs, or my concepts of God and life...
I too, applaud your honesty in Groucho.
Actually though, You don't. At least not completely. You don't reject the idea that ANYONE... You've just shared your thoughts, and at times HAVE shared your past experiences - here in the cafe.... with US! :)-->
I might add that this forum, the internet is about as "open and public" as one can get.
Please don't view this post as a personal attack on you Groucho, I have a ton of respect for you and really do appreciate what you've added to the discussion.
My point is, it seems your choice is when, where, and what you'll share of yourself - - under what circumstances. Which in my view is a prime example of taking personal responsibility for one's life. You obviously do not agree with what you know of what Momentus does, so you soundly reject the notion of involving yourself with them.
Bravo. Sincerely. Bravo.
Others may disagree with a position like yours and involve themselves, and LIKE it.
The one who takes and enjoys the training may then feel that you, via your rejection of Momentus have robbed yourself of potential "blessings" such as they have receievd from it.
You on the other hand may feel that your rejection insulates and insures you from recieving the potential devastation that another has recieved.
At any rate, I find the simple, straightforwardness on your position refreshing.... In my view you just don't want to be involved with it for your own reasons. Cool. Thank you for sharing some of them with us.
quote:
my "secret sins" belong to me...nobody's damn business but my own.
...is a personal statement that leaves us more free to come to our own conclusions (as you have) than had you said something to the effect of, "I don't think people should reveal their secret sins to anyone."
I feel your post helps illustrate the point of personal responsibility vs irresponsibility. I think it it is irresponsible by nature to tell someone what they should or should not do. Although, perhaps, well intended, the nature of telling another what they should do falls down on the controlling side. Again I appreciate that you, Groucho, took the higher ground.
If we watch a couple hours of American network TV nowadays we are bombarded with messages about wonder drugs that "can help you." Have we listened carefully to the disclaimer that follows the POTENTIAL promise that YOU may experience the "joy" of "I've been outbreak free of herpes for the better part of a year...??" If so we would see that it is a hold harmless clause against the potential that you may expereince the "horror" of the myriad side effects that others DEFINITELY have already experienced.
To MY ear, the potential side effects are a LOT worse than the affliction. I will keep my teenie weenie, thank you. I'll find another way to get to be a guest on Oprah....
Momentus, in a manner of speaking is no different than anything else that people offer, hence the "pill" analogy. It is something that someone offers to "everyone" in the hope that it will appeal to those who feel it may help them. "Sign ze papers," is a simple reality of necessity of our current litgious American society.
I weep for the losses anyone has suffered at the hand of Momentus and share the joy of any who has benefitted from it.
My personal position on it is the same as anything else; "caveot emptor" buyer beware, consider the cost, etc. etc.
I don't support it, per se, but I, as an American, feel I must support their right to offer it. I never even heard of it before this thread.
But...but...Groucho. Don't you know that *you* are responsible for allowing yourself to be in that situation to begin with. And it was *your* fault for asking too many probing questions.
Another "grenade" lofted over the wall Garth?
Do you really not see that a person CANNOT be "at fault" for the decisions ANOTHER person makes? Even if person A is involved "up to their eyeballs" they are not responsible for what part B decides.
Don't get it twisted.
Example:
A woman decides to go for a run in the park; a rapist sees her and rapes her. It is NOT her fault she got raped. In fact, it is FURTHER abuse to even phrase it as "she got raped."
SHE didn't "get raped" HE attacked her. ... completely different connotation that includes her in culpability for the rape.
She was responsible for her actions in going running... PERIOD. The runner is NOT culpable in the rape. Groucho was absolutely not responsible for the situation. The reactions of the others to his questions were THEIR freewill decisions.
The runner's actions were not criminal nor abusive by nature; the rapist's were. That is why we don't encarcerate rape victims, but we do convict the driver of the getaway car in a robbery, even though he proves, "All I did was DRIVE a car! I didn't steal anything!"
If the driver was fully aware of the fact that he was waiting to drive the robbers from the scene, he's culpable for the crime. If the robbers bum-rushed him and jacked his car, forcing him to drive them away, NO culpability in the crime.
I think you KNOW that Garth.
STOP connceting me with YOUR obvious pet peeve Garth. I have never said anything to the effect of it is a victim's fault for what someone else does to them.
I would NEVER lay ALL the responsibility and culpability for "what happened" on any ONE person when the decisions of others are CLEARLY involved.
quote:
No doubt that guy who lost his wife and kids and whose life went into the toilet; they'd probably lay all the responsibility and culpability all on him too , if they ever met up with him again.
Smells a lot like propaganda to me, Garth. Seeing as my initials were the next thing you said... looks to me like you're connecting me to that thinking. Each time the issue come us, you refer to me.
HCW...Actually, when I share my thoughts here at the Grease Spot...I do so at my own discretion. Nobody has a RIGHT to read my thoughts until I decide to post them...
As a Christian, I acknowledge that there is one head of the body...and he has lordship of my life. However, I did not see his name on the Momentus list of board of directors.
Secret sins were dealt with privately in the workshop. Me, myself & God. Things I wanted to deal with out in the open were done that way, if time allowed and things seemed to go that way.
Another misconception.
And who said people's will is somehow overthrown in the workshop and that it is coercive in nature? I didn't think so.
I wantedto deal with issues. I worked hard to resist my self-protective impulse to keep those things closed up.
As is often the case, those with the strongest opinions were never there...
Though we did our workshop in 'Lanta (where were you, Garth, I can just TELL you need it.. :P-->) we came to know a couple from Houston who "did it". She is a practicing psychiatrist with a "hi-test" education. Never was Way. I was curious as to her take. In short, she dug it and found it very sound.
To set the record straight, I have never "promoted" Momentous either publicly or privately. I had/have serious reservations about doing so. Mainly because of the mentality mentioned on this thread, that participation is somehow a badge of some sort. I can't stand the "one size fits all" mentality of our former cult.
My reason for posting my experiences is to add some sort of balance to the discussion,
if that's possible. I was never yelled at during the training. I didn't yell at anyone else. I didn't reveal any "secret sins" either, mine or anybody elses. I know people personally who had alot of difficulty with the experience and I don't fault them for that.
But at the same time, I just don't see the training as being "abusive." It's not for everybody that's for sure. How different people react to it, and what they make of it is their own responsibility, as far as I can tell.
I find it hard to believe that an emotionally healthy adult can go into the experience and come out with mental health issues, because of the training. Sorry, I don't buy it.
I do believe that one could go into the training and things could surface that have been unresolved, and the participant was unaware of. Yeah, that has happened. Do I fault the participant for that? No. Do I fault the trainers for that? No.
But I do think people who signed up for Momentous should have been better informed about what it's all about. Would I do it all over again? Probably not at this point in my life, but 11 years ago, I had my reasons. ;)-->
And yeah, I did learn alot, and it did inspire me to make some changes in my life. But I don't think it's the only road I could have taken. It's just the one I chose at the time.
It just gets my goat when I hear people who don't know anything about it talking about how "abusive" it is. Geeeze. I've seen real abuse, and Momentous is not it.
Do you really not see that a person CANNOT be "at fault" ... etc.
Uhhmm, the word for today is sarcasm, which is what I used in my post that you refer to. 'Sar' for 'sar', and 'casm' for 'casm' (Oldie Saturday morning cartoon fans ought to recognize from which one this phrase comes from ;)-->)
quote:
STOP connceting me with YOUR obvious pet peeve Garth. ..... Each time the issue come us, you refer to me.
I resent that. STOP it.
Howard, my connection to my pet peeve was with this Momentus 'logic' that has sometimes been illustrated in YOUR posts. Note that I 'connect' with the same 'logic' illustrated in other's posts as well. Oh, and no I don't totally disagree with what you have posted (I *do* believe that I also made that perfectly clear as well, hmmm?) And what I mentioned about that guy that Groucho talked about ain't propaganda, pal. As browbeating, guilt tripping attempts like that HAVE been done by various aforementioned Momentus 'facilitators' (gotta love them PC titles). Yeah, yeah I know, not all of them do that, and some of them might even be nice to ya; then again when any of them do that kind of abusive crap in the name of the organization, and Gee, they are still facilitators, well then, doesn't the org bear some form of culpability as a result? Hhhmmmm, Yet Another Connection here. STOP that, Garth! ;)-->
quote:
Though we did our workshop in 'Lanta (where were you, Garth, I can just TELL you need it.
Evan,
Nahhh! Religious guilt tripping/brow beating that leads to possible suicidal tendancies aren't what I would regard as 'Gospel'. Yet More Self-Discovery about our supposed self-worthlessness as human beings, I imagine. But of course, I can't really say what you should be into. ... Different strokes and whatever floats your boat, I guess.
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excathedra
do they yell at you during this class ?
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TheEvan
Yes.
Selectively. But yes.
I observed that those who I thought to be more fragile than I seemed to receive gentler treatment.
Saw some pretty wild things when people were dealing with their issue "front and center" so to speak. One invovled a repressed memory "playing out" as if the participant was running a DVD of the event. Pretty scary to me, but it did a lot for her. (Yes, it was of sexual abuse when she was very young).
I had a repressed memory come out too. Not as scary as that, and not in front of everybody. It was in one of the smaller group exercises.
It's this kind of thing where the workshop can get pretty dangerous I think. As far as I could tell, all of our participants came through well & glad about it...but I could see an unstable person flipping out over it.
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GarthP2000
Now why would a person who would 'flip out' or otherwise object to it be necessarily unstable?
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sirguessalot
i really appreciate the input from you guys who have benefitted from Momentus training. this has been a great thread.
i can see some values in it
i think that perhaps because some people have more intense kinds of darknesses to process than others
but rather than process it in a way that the "stinky stuff" comes out the backside, or into a nice clean pan
they kind of accidentally induce someone to vomit their unconsciousness shadows all over that person's "upper room," if you will
(also producing the truly bad and bad bad stories, such as the suicides)
which gets back to what i said, kinda
the Momentus folks may have bit off more than they can chew
and with more than an acceptable number of folks, to some
as if they suffer from a mid-level of crudeness in those mixing those kinds of practices
(if i may be so bold, "crude" is a neutral word)
although, they seem so much farther ahead than the "good old days"
anthropologically, evolutionarily, historically, whatever...
the ideas of blending western christianity and western psychology like this is a useful one, imo
in spite of both of their limits
lets just hope the facilitators learn and grow from it
rather than justify things
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
ok stupid question here
i don't know what mementos is
any help
-->
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satori001
"Surviving" an ordeal is a status symbol. "I was there," it says.
What suppositions have I made about the group's leadership? My posts have only concerned the experience of Momentus trainees, some of whom were former TWI leadership.
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Second James
Good to know that I'm in a select "elitist" group of sorts...thank God I now know who & What I was innitiated into when I took Momentus years ago.
I got alot out of the training
As others...I saw great compassion on the part of the trainers, who were dealing with those of a more timid nature.
If I had to do it over again, I would gladly have attended & gave of the extra donation at the end..proportionate to the blessings I received... No coercion from the end of it I inhabited! HONEST ENGINE
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satori001
By the way, I probably would have taken it at one time.
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excathedra
me too
i used to like getting yelled at
;)-->
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Ham
I wonder if there is some kind of addiction involved.
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oldiesman
Sounds like a wonderful program for wound addicts.
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GarthP2000
Speaking of wounds, ... you seem to be focusing a lot on that wound of yours, Oldies. The one that festers on things Way and about the people who gripe about it.
So why are you still griping, hmmm? ..... You addicted to your wound too?
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Ham
I think that people indeed do get addicted to this kind of nonsense after a while.. pain does stimulate the body to produce endorphins.. and yes, after a while, I also seemed to "enjoy" such stupidity.. so "happy" to get another session of "love".. ptooie.
When some leave der vey, enough seemingly is not enough. Some seem to seek more abusive, pain inducing organizations to fill some kind of "need"..
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GrouchoMarxJr
From reading all the posts in this thread, it's clear that we are not all of "one mind" when it comes to the subject of Momentus...and that's a GOOD thing. I welcome individual thought...something that was dismally missing from our group think experience with the cornfield cult.
I will be the first to admit that I am not objective when it comes to this subject. After spending 13 years of my life in a cult, I cherish and relish the idea that I make decisions (right or wrong) of my own accord and have rejected the notion of allowing others to do that for me.
Perhaps that's one of the reasons that I soundly reject the Momentus training...if it worked for you...swell. As for me, my "secret sins" belong to me...nobody's damn business but my own. I feel no need at all, for the validation of a charismatic group of know it alls..who are hell bent on setting me straight, revealing the truth to me, enlightening my spiritual life, or leading me to some sort of self discovery...personally, I would rather think for myself and fail, than to be a part of some group think cult, riding the coattails of some enlightened guru who will lead me to the promised land of thinking just like him and the rest of his "followers"...been there, done that.
Reveal my "secret sins" to some Momentus group? How dare you??? What in the world gives anyone the right to suggest such a thing to me...or anyone else? Are you so insecure and weak and that you need some buffoon with a nametag to give wings to your spiritual life? To validate your life for you? To open the doors of self discovery for you? (as long as your discovery fits his/her dogma?)...bite my crank matey.
No...I soundly reject the outrageous idea that ANYONE has the right to know my thoughts, my personal experiences, my "secret sins", my aspirations, my beliefs, or my concepts of God and life...yell at me during a Momentus training? I'd smash his nose and walk out the door.
I don't know how much longer I will live on this earth, but I'll tell you this...anyone who tells me that they will change my life for me if I take their "class", "training" or any other indoctrinational format...had better move on to the next "prospect" who's willing to pay them the non-refundable fee to get a glimpse of the "truth"...
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socks
"...we'll make great pets..."
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sirguessalot
wow. groucho. that sure seemed like a nice heartfelt rant...bravo!
:)-->
and ok, so i wonder...
first, would you do such things for free?
and second, worse...would you sit through something if they paid you first?
just curious
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HCW
I too, applaud your honesty in Groucho.
Actually though, You don't. At least not completely. You don't reject the idea that ANYONE... You've just shared your thoughts, and at times HAVE shared your past experiences - here in the cafe.... with US!
:)-->
I might add that this forum, the internet is about as "open and public" as one can get.
Please don't view this post as a personal attack on you Groucho, I have a ton of respect for you and really do appreciate what you've added to the discussion.
My point is, it seems your choice is when, where, and what you'll share of yourself - - under what circumstances. Which in my view is a prime example of taking personal responsibility for one's life. You obviously do not agree with what you know of what Momentus does, so you soundly reject the notion of involving yourself with them.
Bravo. Sincerely. Bravo.
Others may disagree with a position like yours and involve themselves, and LIKE it.
The one who takes and enjoys the training may then feel that you, via your rejection of Momentus have robbed yourself of potential "blessings" such as they have receievd from it.
You on the other hand may feel that your rejection insulates and insures you from recieving the potential devastation that another has recieved.
At any rate, I find the simple, straightforwardness on your position refreshing.... In my view you just don't want to be involved with it for your own reasons. Cool. Thank you for sharing some of them with us.
...is a personal statement that leaves us more free to come to our own conclusions (as you have) than had you said something to the effect of, "I don't think people should reveal their secret sins to anyone."
I feel your post helps illustrate the point of personal responsibility vs irresponsibility. I think it it is irresponsible by nature to tell someone what they should or should not do. Although, perhaps, well intended, the nature of telling another what they should do falls down on the controlling side. Again I appreciate that you, Groucho, took the higher ground.
If we watch a couple hours of American network TV nowadays we are bombarded with messages about wonder drugs that "can help you." Have we listened carefully to the disclaimer that follows the POTENTIAL promise that YOU may experience the "joy" of "I've been outbreak free of herpes for the better part of a year...??" If so we would see that it is a hold harmless clause against the potential that you may expereince the "horror" of the myriad side effects that others DEFINITELY have already experienced.
To MY ear, the potential side effects are a LOT worse than the affliction. I will keep my teenie weenie, thank you. I'll find another way to get to be a guest on Oprah....
Momentus, in a manner of speaking is no different than anything else that people offer, hence the "pill" analogy. It is something that someone offers to "everyone" in the hope that it will appeal to those who feel it may help them. "Sign ze papers," is a simple reality of necessity of our current litgious American society.
I weep for the losses anyone has suffered at the hand of Momentus and share the joy of any who has benefitted from it.
My personal position on it is the same as anything else; "caveot emptor" buyer beware, consider the cost, etc. etc.
I don't support it, per se, but I, as an American, feel I must support their right to offer it. I never even heard of it before this thread.
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HCW
Another "grenade" lofted over the wall Garth?
Do you really not see that a person CANNOT be "at fault" for the decisions ANOTHER person makes? Even if person A is involved "up to their eyeballs" they are not responsible for what part B decides.
Don't get it twisted.
Example:
A woman decides to go for a run in the park; a rapist sees her and rapes her. It is NOT her fault she got raped. In fact, it is FURTHER abuse to even phrase it as "she got raped."
SHE didn't "get raped" HE attacked her. ... completely different connotation that includes her in culpability for the rape.
She was responsible for her actions in going running... PERIOD. The runner is NOT culpable in the rape. Groucho was absolutely not responsible for the situation. The reactions of the others to his questions were THEIR freewill decisions.
The runner's actions were not criminal nor abusive by nature; the rapist's were. That is why we don't encarcerate rape victims, but we do convict the driver of the getaway car in a robbery, even though he proves, "All I did was DRIVE a car! I didn't steal anything!"
If the driver was fully aware of the fact that he was waiting to drive the robbers from the scene, he's culpable for the crime. If the robbers bum-rushed him and jacked his car, forcing him to drive them away, NO culpability in the crime.
I think you KNOW that Garth.
STOP connceting me with YOUR obvious pet peeve Garth. I have never said anything to the effect of it is a victim's fault for what someone else does to them.
I would NEVER lay ALL the responsibility and culpability for "what happened" on any ONE person when the decisions of others are CLEARLY involved.
Smells a lot like propaganda to me, Garth. Seeing as my initials were the next thing you said... looks to me like you're connecting me to that thinking. Each time the issue come us, you refer to me.
I resent that. STOP it.
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GrouchoMarxJr
sirguessalot...Would I do such things for free?...No.
Would I take Momentus if they paid me first?...maybe. How much are we talking about?
;)-->
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GrouchoMarxJr
HCW...Actually, when I share my thoughts here at the Grease Spot...I do so at my own discretion. Nobody has a RIGHT to read my thoughts until I decide to post them...
As a Christian, I acknowledge that there is one head of the body...and he has lordship of my life. However, I did not see his name on the Momentus list of board of directors.
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TheEvan
Secret sins were dealt with privately in the workshop. Me, myself & God. Things I wanted to deal with out in the open were done that way, if time allowed and things seemed to go that way.
Another misconception.
And who said people's will is somehow overthrown in the workshop and that it is coercive in nature? I didn't think so.
I wantedto deal with issues. I worked hard to resist my self-protective impulse to keep those things closed up.
As is often the case, those with the strongest opinions were never there...
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TheEvan
Though we did our workshop in 'Lanta (where were you, Garth, I can just TELL you need it..
:P-->) we came to know a couple from Houston who "did it". She is a practicing psychiatrist with a "hi-test" education. Never was Way. I was curious as to her take. In short, she dug it and found it very sound.
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ex10
To set the record straight, I have never "promoted" Momentous either publicly or privately. I had/have serious reservations about doing so. Mainly because of the mentality mentioned on this thread, that participation is somehow a badge of some sort. I can't stand the "one size fits all" mentality of our former cult.
My reason for posting my experiences is to add some sort of balance to the discussion,
if that's possible. I was never yelled at during the training. I didn't yell at anyone else. I didn't reveal any "secret sins" either, mine or anybody elses. I know people personally who had alot of difficulty with the experience and I don't fault them for that.
But at the same time, I just don't see the training as being "abusive." It's not for everybody that's for sure. How different people react to it, and what they make of it is their own responsibility, as far as I can tell.
I find it hard to believe that an emotionally healthy adult can go into the experience and come out with mental health issues, because of the training. Sorry, I don't buy it.
I do believe that one could go into the training and things could surface that have been unresolved, and the participant was unaware of. Yeah, that has happened. Do I fault the participant for that? No. Do I fault the trainers for that? No.
But I do think people who signed up for Momentous should have been better informed about what it's all about. Would I do it all over again? Probably not at this point in my life, but 11 years ago, I had my reasons.
;)-->
And yeah, I did learn alot, and it did inspire me to make some changes in my life. But I don't think it's the only road I could have taken. It's just the one I chose at the time.
It just gets my goat when I hear people who don't know anything about it talking about how "abusive" it is. Geeeze. I've seen real abuse, and Momentous is not it.
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GarthP2000
Howie,
Uhhmm, the word for today is sarcasm, which is what I used in my post that you refer to. 'Sar' for 'sar', and 'casm' for 'casm' (Oldie Saturday morning cartoon fans ought to recognize from which one this phrase comes from
;)-->)
Howard, my connection to my pet peeve was with this Momentus 'logic' that has sometimes been illustrated in YOUR posts. Note that I 'connect' with the same 'logic' illustrated in other's posts as well. Oh, and no I don't totally disagree with what you have posted (I *do* believe that I also made that perfectly clear as well, hmmm?) And what I mentioned about that guy that Groucho talked about ain't propaganda, pal. As browbeating, guilt tripping attempts like that HAVE been done by various aforementioned Momentus 'facilitators' (gotta love them PC titles). Yeah, yeah I know, not all of them do that, and some of them might even be nice to ya; then again when any of them do that kind of abusive crap in the name of the organization, and Gee, they are still facilitators, well then, doesn't the org bear some form of culpability as a result? Hhhmmmm, Yet Another Connection here.
STOP that, Garth! 
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Evan,
Nahhh! Religious guilt tripping/brow beating that leads to possible suicidal tendancies aren't what I would regard as 'Gospel'. Yet More Self-Discovery about our supposed self-worthlessness as human beings, I imagine. But of course, I can't really say what you should be into. ... Different strokes and whatever floats your boat, I guess.
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