but can this "training" be considered Christian? I mean, we can all drop some acid and sing Jesus songs...that doesn't make doing LSD a Christian experience
But perhaps give the same result. Some have a "good" experience, some bad, some go nuts..
I wonder what the true percentages are with momentus.
I think the evidence is clear...I can think of no reason why anyone should ever subject themselves to this ungodly trauma...
I think it would be interesting to look into the financial records of these people...bet they're making a bundle of dough at the expense of people's mental health.
I also recall quite vividly, that when I pledged a college fraternity...they verbally abused us, beat us with paddles, subjected us to sleep deprivation and a whole lot of other nasty things...the end result was that when it was all over...the abused pledges hugged their abusers and became very close to them...
...no thanks, I have enough problems without filling my head with the little green demons from Momentus.
I was told by Momentus staff my reaction was an isolated and rare occurrence caused by some big problem in my life I was afraid to face (neither they nor I have any idea what that might be)
But look at the reality of the situation:
quote:
However, I learned later that two others IN MY OWN TRAINING experienced very similar extreme symptoms, ONE WINDING UP IN THE HOSPITAL ALSO
Emphasis, mine..
Two others in the same training session??!!
Not so isolated as we may be led to believe..
quote:
Having no personal or family history of mental illness, I spent four days in a hospital mental health unit after the training
FOUR DAYS in a "looney bin" to get it straightened out.. holy smokes.
And she wasn't the only one, in the same session..
quote:
I have since heard of three additional situations where participants ended up in the hospital or attempted suicide following their Momentus training. This is far from being an isolated occurrence and is cause for concern.
No wonder they have you sign the little waiver..
But Evan, I agree with Exie on a lot of this. You must've been a real good guy to start with..
Being an attendee of Momentous, I would love to be a part of the conversation. However, I am a total wuss type person, and can't stand arguing and barking.
Seems to me, judgement has been passed, so I probably have nothing worthwhile to say.
Seems a shame. That's why I left the cult. No room for a voice that's different from the crowd.
I haven't read this entire thread, but what I've read reminds me of a line I heard today.
It might have been a line from a novel, or it may have been said by a pharmaceutical researcher. Doesn't matter.
The question is asked, "Will there eventually be a drug for everything?"
The reply is, "Yes, but not for everyone."
The answer means there will never be a single pill that works for everyone. Whatever the ailment, whatever the cure, some will see dramatic improvement, even miraculous results. Some will see no results. Some will have a bad reaction, and perhaps die.
Yeah well, just speaking for myself, I never looked at the Momentous Training as any kind of a "pill."
Having been involved in similiar stuff as a teen, in the Catholic church, I thought it was another retreat type thing, that sounded like Cursillo. Yeah, I was right. :)-->
I suppose that's where the proponents of Momentous went wrong to start with. It was never meant to be a "one size fits all" answer to anything. Hence, the 'hold harmless" agreement, which is misunderstood beyond words.
The whole thing was meant to be a vehicle for those seeking a deeper spirituality, that goes beyond just surviving, and yeah, recovering.
Ok, what I'm saying is, if one has emotional issues that are unresolved, a mess can insue. ;)-->
As in most things spiritual in nature, which of course includes the paycological, (because how else does one live out one's faith?) things can get a tad bit messy. Nobody likes that. Few of us want to deal with it.
It's not like you have to be perfect to go there, but you do have to be willing to work through stuff that comes up. Hardly anybody wants to do that, in my experience. :)--> Especially if one get blind-sighted.
So it becomes much easier to play the blame game, and say that the whole freaking deal is messed up, and forget trying to help anybody that might get it.
I'm in no way disparaging those who dislike Momentous. I think they were ill-prepared for the experience, and probably didn't know what they signed up for.
How are we going to get answeres if we don`t ask questions to clear up our previous misconceptions?
It shouldn`t be percieved as flaming or crucifying to ask questions in order to get a clearer understanding and clarification before relaxing our skeptisism.
I'm in no way disparaging those who dislike Momentous. I think they were ill-prepared for the experience, and probably didn't know what they signed up for.
i think that's true for those running the show too. not prepared for what could happen. i don't think the motivation for doing it was wrong. but as i said this is fire you are dealing with with people. like you said there are other similar type work in unresolved areas.
Is the Momentus organization as evangelistic as it seems, or was that the influence of CES and John in particular?
The apparent zeal to "fix" the Christian world may have ridden roughshod over finer considerations such as an individual's emotional health.
Momentus is/was clearly a rite of initiation, a tribal ordeal, basically a hazing, for some (or many) of its graduates. The emotional maturity of those individuals is questionable, if only because of that view. To use a sports analogy, it's a tryout to see who makes the first string and who warms the bench. Does "Athletes of the Spirit" sound familiar? Same attitude.
To use a military analogy, it's boot camp, where they break you and then rebuild you. (I've never been to boot camp, but testimony abounds.)
That view would be consistent with the steroidally competitive personalities among certain TWI leadership.
ex10, I'm not saying this was your perspective, nor am I saying this was the sole reason for anyone's participation or endorsement. People are complex. The man who leads you to the well to quench your thirst may have also added something to the water. Every man is justified in his own eyes. Isn't that how it goes?
... but you do have to be willing to work through stuff that comes up. Hardly anybody wants to do that, in my experience. Smile Especially if one get blind-sighted.
So it becomes much easier to play the blame game, and say that the whole freaking deal is messed up, and forget trying to help anybody that might get it.
So why is it that when confronted with complaints, many of them I daresay honest ones, *they* then (seemingly at least) go into the 'pass the buck' mode (often by bringing up the "you're just trying to avoid self-responsibility" guilt trip), hmmm? Or why is it that those who are taking part, when they start asking the probing questions, they instead get the bum's rush out the door? (as per Groucho's experience)
You see Ex10, this issue goes beyond the 'this program might not be for you' routine, unless we wish to make that same kind of argument re: the ((cough)) 'indepth spiritual training' of the Way Corp. :(--> It goes to what genuine abuse occurs in these sessions that you just can't lay at the feet of the convenient "you just have messy issues" excuse.
I hope that wasn't too severe a form of 'crucifixion' I gave. -->
Though the hazing analogy doesn't fit here, participants seem to come out the other side with a similar sense of community. "Whoah, I climbed that mountain" sort of thing.
Otherwise, you know not of what you speak, satori. You're making unwarranted suppositions about the character if the groups' leadership.
Possessing a fair dose of cautious "Waydar" myself, my alarms would have have gone on red alert had I sensed a manipulative power trip.
Again, speaking only from my experience.
That said, I do see the points of the alarmists. Some of it soes seem alarming. Nevertheless, I'm an adult and capable of making my own decisions. I made mine and it worked out just fine.
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sirguessalot
this has been an interesting thread to me
helped fill in some gaps regarding folks' Momentus experience
(in light of comments on a recent barely-similar workshop i posted about around here)
so, ok...my 2 cents...
i think the Momentus folks may have bitten off more than they can chew
like they were not qualified enough to facilitate any sort of shadow-type work without screwing quite a few things up
maybe some cross-over from controlling aspects of christian doctrine put an even lower limit on what they were prepared to deal with
(not unlike all those wannabe exorcists getting their butts kicked by a "demon" in acts...to beat a dead legend one more time)
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oenophile
I hate to throw cold water on your fear party...But..God has NOT given us the spirit of fear.
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Ham
But perhaps give the same result. Some have a "good" experience, some bad, some go nuts..
I wonder what the true percentages are with momentus.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Here's some information that might add to the "Momentus perspective"
Momentus info
interesting stuff
Hmmm...for some reason, the link I provided doesn't seem to be working...try this if you're interested, it'a a quick read
http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/recmombarton.htm
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Ham
Hmmm.. neither of them seem to work..
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Ham
Maybe this one will work, a little longer read..
This one had a "bad trip"
A Trainer's perspective
One more if you're not bored to tears!
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Ham
It you didn't read "bad trip" far enough down..
From Juedes site:
Ah, at least they can claim they get "results".
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Ham
Given the choice, I'd rather take the shortcut. Give me the acid..
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Ham
Heck, it'd be far cheaper, anyway.
:)-->
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GrouchoMarxJr
Hammer...Thanks for the links...
I think the evidence is clear...I can think of no reason why anyone should ever subject themselves to this ungodly trauma...
I think it would be interesting to look into the financial records of these people...bet they're making a bundle of dough at the expense of people's mental health.
I also recall quite vividly, that when I pledged a college fraternity...they verbally abused us, beat us with paddles, subjected us to sleep deprivation and a whole lot of other nasty things...the end result was that when it was all over...the abused pledges hugged their abusers and became very close to them...
...no thanks, I have enough problems without filling my head with the little green demons from Momentus.
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Ham
A few more exerpts:
But look at the reality of the situation:
Emphasis, mine..
Two others in the same training session??!!
Not so isolated as we may be led to believe..
FOUR DAYS in a "looney bin" to get it straightened out.. holy smokes.
And she wasn't the only one, in the same session..
No wonder they have you sign the little waiver..
But Evan, I agree with Exie on a lot of this. You must've been a real good guy to start with..
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ex10
Being an attendee of Momentous, I would love to be a part of the conversation. However, I am a total wuss type person, and can't stand arguing and barking.
Seems to me, judgement has been passed, so I probably have nothing worthwhile to say.
Seems a shame. That's why I left the cult. No room for a voice that's different from the crowd.
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satori001
ex10, I haven't made up my mind yet. What are your thoughts on Momentus??
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satori001
I haven't read this entire thread, but what I've read reminds me of a line I heard today.
It might have been a line from a novel, or it may have been said by a pharmaceutical researcher. Doesn't matter.
The question is asked, "Will there eventually be a drug for everything?"
The reply is, "Yes, but not for everyone."
The answer means there will never be a single pill that works for everyone. Whatever the ailment, whatever the cure, some will see dramatic improvement, even miraculous results. Some will see no results. Some will have a bad reaction, and perhaps die.
In a way, Momentus is such a pill.
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ex10
Yeah well, just speaking for myself, I never looked at the Momentous Training as any kind of a "pill."
Having been involved in similiar stuff as a teen, in the Catholic church, I thought it was another retreat type thing, that sounded like Cursillo. Yeah, I was right.
:)-->
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ex10
I suppose that's where the proponents of Momentous went wrong to start with. It was never meant to be a "one size fits all" answer to anything. Hence, the 'hold harmless" agreement, which is misunderstood beyond words.
The whole thing was meant to be a vehicle for those seeking a deeper spirituality, that goes beyond just surviving, and yeah, recovering.
Ok, what I'm saying is, if one has emotional issues that are unresolved, a mess can insue.
;)-->
As in most things spiritual in nature, which of course includes the paycological, (because how else does one live out one's faith?) things can get a tad bit messy. Nobody likes that. Few of us want to deal with it.
It's not like you have to be perfect to go there, but you do have to be willing to work through stuff that comes up. Hardly anybody wants to do that, in my experience.
:)--> Especially if one get blind-sighted.
So it becomes much easier to play the blame game, and say that the whole freaking deal is messed up, and forget trying to help anybody that might get it.
I'm in no way disparaging those who dislike Momentous. I think they were ill-prepared for the experience, and probably didn't know what they signed up for.
Ok, crucify me.
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rascal
I think you underestimate posters here ex 10.
How are we going to get answeres if we don`t ask questions to clear up our previous misconceptions?
It shouldn`t be percieved as flaming or crucifying to ask questions in order to get a clearer understanding and clarification before relaxing our skeptisism.
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markomalley
Ex10,
I sympathize. As one of the few token Catholics on this board, I'm up for daily crucifixion, as well.
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CM
ex10
i think that's true for those running the show too. not prepared for what could happen. i don't think the motivation for doing it was wrong. but as i said this is fire you are dealing with with people. like you said there are other similar type work in unresolved areas.
any group type help thing is like that.
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satori001
Is the Momentus organization as evangelistic as it seems, or was that the influence of CES and John in particular?
The apparent zeal to "fix" the Christian world may have ridden roughshod over finer considerations such as an individual's emotional health.
Momentus is/was clearly a rite of initiation, a tribal ordeal, basically a hazing, for some (or many) of its graduates. The emotional maturity of those individuals is questionable, if only because of that view. To use a sports analogy, it's a tryout to see who makes the first string and who warms the bench. Does "Athletes of the Spirit" sound familiar? Same attitude.
To use a military analogy, it's boot camp, where they break you and then rebuild you. (I've never been to boot camp, but testimony abounds.)
That view would be consistent with the steroidally competitive personalities among certain TWI leadership.
ex10, I'm not saying this was your perspective, nor am I saying this was the sole reason for anyone's participation or endorsement. People are complex. The man who leads you to the well to quench your thirst may have also added something to the water. Every man is justified in his own eyes. Isn't that how it goes?
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GarthP2000
So why is it that when confronted with complaints, many of them I daresay honest ones, *they* then (seemingly at least) go into the 'pass the buck' mode (often by bringing up the "you're just trying to avoid self-responsibility" guilt trip), hmmm? Or why is it that those who are taking part, when they start asking the probing questions, they instead get the bum's rush out the door? (as per Groucho's experience)
You see Ex10, this issue goes beyond the 'this program might not be for you' routine, unless we wish to make that same kind of argument re: the ((cough)) 'indepth spiritual training' of the Way Corp.
:(--> It goes to what genuine abuse occurs in these sessions that you just can't lay at the feet of the convenient "you just have messy issues" excuse.
I hope that wasn't too severe a form of 'crucifixion' I gave.
-->
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satori001
By the way, I believe that ordeals, tryouts, bootcamp, and even hazing (within limits) may be necessary for specific reasons.
Put the right person in those circumstances and the results will be appropriate. The wrong person will be subject to "abuse."
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TheEvan
Though the hazing analogy doesn't fit here, participants seem to come out the other side with a similar sense of community. "Whoah, I climbed that mountain" sort of thing.
Otherwise, you know not of what you speak, satori. You're making unwarranted suppositions about the character if the groups' leadership.
Possessing a fair dose of cautious "Waydar" myself, my alarms would have have gone on red alert had I sensed a manipulative power trip.
Again, speaking only from my experience.
That said, I do see the points of the alarmists. Some of it soes seem alarming. Nevertheless, I'm an adult and capable of making my own decisions. I made mine and it worked out just fine.
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Ham
Honestly, I'm glad it did.
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