Man's idea of what good is, may be different than God's.
Mercy = Good
Forgiveness = Good
Kindness = Good
Punishment = Bad?
Consequences of sin = Bad ?
If we define good in terms of feel-good/warm fuzzies then it will probably never make sense. In a world where there are no conquences for sin, it won't make sense.
Add to the mix the idea that "I am heaven bound and all hell can't stop me,(rape, murder, etc) and there you have it - No reason to fear God at all. After all God is good.
Ok, then Danny, Oldies, take it to doctrinal and explain the verses I posted. Explain away the word "phobos" in those verses that include it. Explain why both Peter and Paul told folks (Christians) to fear (phobos) God.
Man's idea of what good is, may be different than God's.
Mercy = Good
Forgiveness = Good
Kindness = Good
Punishment = Bad?
Consequences of sin = Bad ?
If we define good in terms of feel-good/warm fuzzies then it will probably never make sense. In a world where there are no conquences for sin, it won't make sense.
It's my general understanding from a many Christian theologies that every person since Adam born into this world is born and wired into "sin" and the "consequences" thereof anyways.
Should one "dread" and "fear" the Deity Who rescues us from such a hopeless situation where we've already been condemned? Many take pleasure in quoting "For God so loved the world that He sent His only begotten Son" - yet fewer raise a banner at the ball park that which follows -
"For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world , but that the world might be rescued by Him. He who believes in Him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already..."
Surely the "goodness" and the "love" of God transcends beyond merely something to be reckoned "warm" and "fuzzy", weak and ineffectual.
quote:
Add to the mix the idea that "I am heaven bound and all hell can't stop me,(rape, murder, etc) and there you have it - No reason to fear God at all. After all God is good.
"By their fruits ye shall know them", yes?
"Why do you call out Lord! Lord!
and not do a thing I say?
No one can serve two lords."
(He adds elsewhere that a man will either love the one and fear the other and so on)
And I would add no one still doing those sorts of things (rape, murder) - despite his claims of a "Christian" identity - really knows the Good God, nor really possesses any depth of understanding nor appreciation for His love and goodness.
quote:
Ok, then Danny, Oldies, take it to doctrinal and explain the verses I posted. Explain away the word "phobos" in those verses that include it. Explain why both Peter and Paul told folks (Christians) to fear (phobos) God.
The following letter from John Lynn was probably read by most of us but I note it again here as this thread is about CES/STFI.
quote:
Revised March 2003
Dearest brother/sister in Christ,
God bless you richly in the mighty name of Jesus Christ our Lord, our Savior, our Mentor, the one whose perfect trust in his heavenly Father made it possible for us to do likewise and walk with him.
This is John Lynn, and I am writing this letter to anyone who is or was involved in The Way International, that is, those with "ex-Way vision." The Real Me, by the grace and mercy of God, is still standing, and more than ever "living in the eye of the storm." The first thing I want to say is, "I love you." The second thing is that, as it has for the past 16 years, my heart goes out to everyone who was ever associated with The Way. I think that we all did hear much of the Word "as it has not been taught since the first century." The problem was that we had an "absent Christ," and therefore, practically speaking, we were like a body without a head. I was only one of the "poor substitutes" that people looked to when they should have been looking to the Lord Jesus Christ.
I thank God that I was taught the inherent keys to the Word’s interpretation. They are still true, and they are what enabled me, along with my dear friends John Schoenheit and Mark and Karen Anne Graeser (and many others), to see the wrong doctrine mixed in with the right doctrine we were taught. If you are interested, we have a list of about 25 biblical subjects about which we believe the Word says differently than we were taught in The Way. What we believe the Word says about these can be found in one or more of our books and tapes.
Wrong doctrine always leads to wrong practice. I am more aware than most of the grievous abuses laid upon many of God’s precious people when they were in The Way . Perhaps you are one who was so abused. The point is that now the choice is yours as to how you see your past involvement in The Way. In our lives, we are not the sum total of what has happened to us, but rather how we have responded to what has happened. In that vein, "it’s never too late to have a happy childhood." What I mean by that is that you can ask the Lord to help you arrive at a healthy perspective of whatever happened to you. In his infinite resourcefulness, he can somehow turn it into something you can use to help someone else.
In regard to your involvement in The Way , you could choose to be a victim, but may I suggest that is not the best perspective. Frederick Douglas, a former slave and then an abolitionist in the time of the Civil War, once said, "The limits of tyrants are prescribed by those whom they oppress." I like to look at my time in The Way in a more positive sense. I want to "eat the fish and spit out the bones."
There are many things I could say here, but I’m trying to keep this letter as brief as possible. I know thousands of people who, in my opinion, have "thrown out the baby with the bathwater." They have spit out the whole fish because of some bones. I know many others who are "tired of the fight," that is, of "not fitting in" with traditional Christianity, primarily because they are branded as heretics for not believing that Jesus is God. In regard to that subject, I encourage you to read our newest book, titled One God and One Lord: Reconsidering the Cornerstone of the Christian Faith .
For 16 years now we have been helping people around the world, many who have never heard of The Way, move forward, most especially by getting Jesus Christ in the right place as Lord . Christian Educational Services is a full service ministry with a wide range of activities and materials for everyone. We are seeing people's hearts healed and seeing them come together to reach out to others in the love of Christ.
I encourage you to listen to or read for yourself what we have produced. If you like, we are most happy to send you a Christian Educational Services statement of beliefs, and/or put you on our mailing list for our monthly newsletter. Each letter has an order form listing all the materials we have so you can order anything you like. I also encourage you go to our website, which is located at: CESonline.org, and see what you think.
In closing, let me say that I honestly believe that Dr. Wierwille would be very proud of what we are doing. We have taken the keys to the Word’s interpretation that he taught us and we have used them to evaluate his own teachings, correcting those that did not agree with Scripture. We have never lost sight of the goal of moving the Word around the world. If that is still your goal, or if you think there is any way we could be of service to you, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Once again let me say that I love you. I wish that I could adequately communicate to you how thrilling life is when the Lord Jesus Christ is a daily reality. Understanding who he is as "the Lord" and living accordingly exalts both him and our heavenly Father. The Lord Jesus is the glue that can knit our hearts together so that we can enjoy the "camaraderie of the committed" and stand together for him.
Georgio -- Like I said, I never did the *momentous thing*. I heard more negative comments about it than positive, so regardless of the fact that CES promoted it at one time, I refused to go.
I never did either, even if it was available to me.
i dearly loved my earthly father he was my best friend i miss him daily
i did not fear him
You didn't fear your dad? I feared mine. Not the way I fear getting devoured alive by a zombie, but still... What's wrong with fearing your father? That is, realizing and recognizing that he's your dad and you answer to him? I feared my dad, and in fact, I still do. I'm not terrified of him, but I fear him. I don't see what the big deal is (although I admit, it's probably different reactions to the word "fear": it conjures an emotion in your brain, and if the emotion it conjures for you is different from the emotion it conjures for me, we're going to have a different reaction to the word).
Observe the relationships that the great men of God in the Bible had with God. (Both old and new testament.)
It wasn't that "yuk yuk, ol' buddy o' pal" kind of relationship I see with some Way/ex-Way folks. These men deeply revered God. They trembled in his presence. They took sin & transgressions seriously and knew they had to answer to God.
I think God expects a bit more awe and reverence (fear/phobos) than what I see with a lot of folks who want to ham it up with God, like he's a fishing pal or drinking buddy. Not saying anyone here does that, but I do know several ex-TW folks round my area that do.
quote:
I still don't know what we are supposed to be afraid of.
God has sanctified us in Christ.
Justified us in Christ.
Made us righteous in Christ.
We are accepted in the beloved.
There is nothing to fear.
We are already seated in the heavenlies.
OLdies,
All the above are true, except the one where you say "there is nothing to fear". The Bible tells us of many things we are not to fear. However, God Himself is not one of those things.
BTW, you never did attempt to address the New Testament scriptures I posted that clearly say we are to fear (phobos) God. Why not give them a stab? Or do you just ignore them cause they don't fit with your belief?
Ephesians 4: 17-32 gives us all types of information about putting off old behavior and put on the actions of the new man which is created in righteousness.
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Grieve means to make sorrowful, offend, hurt
I certainly wouldn't want to do that to my Father.
I do find interesting that the Greek word for "fear" is phobos. That puts a whole new slant on things and does deserve reconsideration.
BTW, you never did attempt to address the New Testament scriptures I posted that clearly say we are to fear (phobos) God. Why not give them a stab? Or do you just ignore them cause they don't fit with your belief?
Goey, best I come up with right now is that "godly fear" means something far different than fear.
I do admit that I understand and still believe VP's version of fearing God as meaning reverance and respect.
Different from "fear", which I liken to a mouse running away from a cat.
In contrast, godly fear is having awe and reverence for God, but not wanting to flee from him, like a mouse would fear a cat, or like a lamb would fear a lion.
I see God as a God of love, and as such wants us to come boldly to him, not see him as a killer we are to run from.
While we are on the subject of fear and CES, I would recommend a teaching by John Lynn entitled "Everything You Wanted To Know About Fear, But Were Afraid to Ask", available from the CES/STFI bookstore.
In it, he debunks a lot of the erroneous teaching TWI had on the subject of fear. :)-->
Goey, best I come up with right now is that "godly fear" means something far different than fear.
I do admit that I understand and still believe VP's version of fearing God as meaning reverance and respect.
Different from "fear", which I liken to a mouse running away from a cat.
In contrast, godly fear is having awe and reverence for God, but not wanting to flee from him, like a mouse would fear a cat, or like a lamb would fear a lion.
I see God as a God of love, and as such wants us to come boldly to him, not see him as a killer we are to run from.
Hmm... maybe this'll come in handy in Goey and Oldies' dialogue...
quote:
it's probably different reactions to the word "fear": it conjures an emotion in your brain, and if the emotion it conjures for you is different from the emotion it conjures for me, we're going to have a different reaction to the word.
What does phobos mean? Why would God use it to describe how He wants us to approach Him?
I do admit that I understand and still believe VP's version of fearing God as meaning reverance and respect.
OM,
Hell must be freezing over because again I agree with this and your comments which followed on the different types of "fear".
However, I digress that this view actually originated with VP. One need not turn to any esoteric volume to locate the various possible meanings to "fear" in the Bible, which according to a cursory glance of the Strong Hebrew/Greek dictionaries of my "Online Bible" software, can indeed also mean "reverence, awe, and astonishment".
When I consider "fear" - aside from the cautionary, parental "don't-play-with-those scissors-or-you'll-poke-out-your-eye" - it's also generally a powerful, involuntary , uncontrollable reaction, emotion or sense that a person does not usually consciously invoke.
What person here, for example, would not be trembling with pure astonishment if Jesus was to suddenly materialize before your eyes and start speaking to you? Perhaps many here - if only secretly, or if only in passing- have earnestly yearned for such an extraordinary, personal epiphany to occur their lives?
In any event, that we may be concerned with a number of meanings underlyng "fear" is not without validity.
Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
Godly fear in this verse is from the Greek "eulabeia", not "phobos". Reverence here is from the Greek "aidos". Neither of these is synonymous with "phobos".
So you still haven't explained why phobos is used in the verses I listed, except that you offer a new definition for it. If the writers had meant "godly fear" don't you think they would have used some other word than phobos?
Danny, all I see is you agreeing with Oldies and offering little of substance concerning why phobos was used in those verses instead of entrepo, aidos, or even eulabeia. How did phobos suddenly develop a new meaning?
Nothing theological here. Just the observation that the kind of narrow teaching featured in that masterpiece of fractured theology known as Piffle leads to some silly conclusions.
In Wierwillia, fear bad, confidence good.
I work at heights. I have learned that confidence bad, fear good.
I've come to think of much fear as a gift of god...responses he gave us in order to survive.
Thus, when confronted with a burning building, fear tells me not go in there. I didn't and here I am.
I suppose one could say that Wierwille wasn't talking about that kind of fear and that he was talking only about bad fear. Or perhaps irrational fear. Fine. But he didn't say that.
The small tidy boxes into which he tried to stuff his theology eventually prove to be much too small.
Maggie Muggins here. From my overall reading of the Bible, I still go with the reverence definition, but with a very healthy dose of awe mixed in. Awe at God's power, perfect love and so much more. It's more than respect and reverence, but it doesn't make me afraid of Him.
I do my best to honor and obey God, but it's because I'm grateful for all He's done for me, not because I'm I'm afraid of His wrath or His awesome power. Didn't Jesus Christ lay down his life for me? Therefore, I can't see quaking in my boots when I come to him in prayer. Nope. I'm with Danny and Oldies on this one.
Danny, all I see is you agreeing with Oldies and offering little of substance concerning why phobos was used in those verses instead of entrepo, aidos, or even eulabeia. How did phobos suddenly develop a new meaning?
No, I'm also agreeing with Vine (Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words), and as well as James Strong (Strongs Concordance -Online Bible edition). According to Vines, the primary meaning of PHOBOS "first had the meaning of flight, that which is caused by being scared; then, that which may cause flight...." which is then followed by "reverential fear (i) of God, as a controlling motive of the life, not a mere fear of His power and righteouss retribution, but of wholesome dread of displeasing Him, a fear that banishes the terror that shrinks from His presence."
Now look over here at this chart from "Strongs" :
quote:
5399 fobew phobeo fob-eh’-o
from 5401; TDNT-9:189,1272; v
AV-fear 62, be afraid 23, be afraid of 5, reverence 1, misc 2; 93
1) to put to flight by terrifying (to scare away)
1a) to put to flight, to flee
1b) to fear, be afraid
1b1) to be struck with fear, to be seized with alarm
1b1a) of those startled by strange sights or occurrences
1b1b) of those struck with amazement
1b2) to fear, be afraid of one
1b3) to fear (i.e. hesitate) to do something (for fear of harm)
1c) to reverence, venerate, to treat with deference or reverential obedience
As well as this one here:
quote:
5401 fobov phobos fob’-os
from a primary phebomai (to be put in fear); TDNT-9:189,1272; n m
AV-fear 41, terror 3, misc 3; 47
1) fear, dread, terror
1a) that which strikes terror
2) reverence for one’s husband
I'm not above contemplating the possibility of "new meaning" that might fill the old wineskins of these ancient words. Christians are known to have done that, and even relished in it, Goey. I don't exclude the possibility of phobos carrying other meanings and shades of meaning besides its most literal. Why do you insist that "fear" carry only one meaning, against Strong and Vine? Hey, these are the scholarly geeks... I haven't even needed to touch the works of the "oriental" fruitcakes ...
"Oriental fruitcakes," Danny? You made a funny...! :D--> :D--> :D-->
I do think that TWI was so caught up in the You Are Righteous Now aspect of Christianity that they threw out balancing that with fear -- fear of displeasing the One you love, fear of your works coming to naught because they weren't godly, and a healthy respect for what God could have done to you, were it not for His mercy.
Wierwille loved the "freedom in Christ" doctrine, of course, because he wanted the freedom to do a whole lot of ill without repercussions.
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TheInvisibleDan
I digress, and agree with the Marcionites - "a bad god is to be feared - a Good God loved."
Wierwille feared letting go of the old.
The "old man" alongside its old god.
Never fully learning or appreciating the "love" of the New.
Danny
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oldiesman
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TheInvisibleDan
Unless it's a "bad god".
For once I kind of agree with you here (lol).
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Goey
Man's idea of what good is, may be different than God's.
Mercy = Good
Forgiveness = Good
Kindness = Good
Punishment = Bad?
Consequences of sin = Bad ?
If we define good in terms of feel-good/warm fuzzies then it will probably never make sense. In a world where there are no conquences for sin, it won't make sense.
Add to the mix the idea that "I am heaven bound and all hell can't stop me,(rape, murder, etc) and there you have it - No reason to fear God at all. After all God is good.
Ok, then Danny, Oldies, take it to doctrinal and explain the verses I posted. Explain away the word "phobos" in those verses that include it. Explain why both Peter and Paul told folks (Christians) to fear (phobos) God.
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TheInvisibleDan
It's my general understanding from a many Christian theologies that every person since Adam born into this world is born and wired into "sin" and the "consequences" thereof anyways.
Should one "dread" and "fear" the Deity Who rescues us from such a hopeless situation where we've already been condemned? Many take pleasure in quoting "For God so loved the world that He sent His only begotten Son" - yet fewer raise a banner at the ball park that which follows -
"For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world , but that the world might be rescued by Him. He who believes in Him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already..."
Surely the "goodness" and the "love" of God transcends beyond merely something to be reckoned "warm" and "fuzzy", weak and ineffectual.
"By their fruits ye shall know them", yes?
"Why do you call out Lord! Lord!
and not do a thing I say?
No one can serve two lords."
(He adds elsewhere that a man will either love the one and fear the other and so on)
And I would add no one still doing those sorts of things (rape, murder) - despite his claims of a "Christian" identity - really knows the Good God, nor really possesses any depth of understanding nor appreciation for His love and goodness.
I'm off to work now. Perhaps later.
"Love"
Danny
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oldiesman
Good points Danny.
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oldiesman
The following letter from John Lynn was probably read by most of us but I note it again here as this thread is about CES/STFI.
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ex10
Good points about the fearing of God.
It occurs to me that we all have gifts and talents etc. that we use to communicate who God is to others, and to help build that relationship.
Maybe our perspective can differ according to our calling and abilities? Just wondering and thinking out loud.......
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oldiesman
If that's true then I must be one who falls on the side of believing God wants us to love and respect Him as any Father would rather than fear Him.
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WordWolf
False Dilemma.
The answer is not "Either/Or"- it is BOTH.
Love and Respect God, and remember that if you do evil, He sees.
Of course, that's just me talking.
But then there's HEBREWS 10....
Hebrews 10:25-31.
But, don't let a little thing like an Epistle (ADDRESSED TO US) affect your
doctrine.
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Jan
I never did either, even if it was available to me.
Jan
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Raf
You didn't fear your dad? I feared mine. Not the way I fear getting devoured alive by a zombie, but still... What's wrong with fearing your father? That is, realizing and recognizing that he's your dad and you answer to him? I feared my dad, and in fact, I still do. I'm not terrified of him, but I fear him. I don't see what the big deal is (although I admit, it's probably different reactions to the word "fear": it conjures an emotion in your brain, and if the emotion it conjures for you is different from the emotion it conjures for me, we're going to have a different reaction to the word).
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oldiesman
I still don't know what we are supposed to be afraid of.
God has sanctified us in Christ.
Justified us in Christ.
Made us righteous in Christ.
We are accepted in the beloved.
There is nothing to fear.
We are already seated in the heavenlies.
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Goey
Oldies,
Observe the relationships that the great men of God in the Bible had with God. (Both old and new testament.)
It wasn't that "yuk yuk, ol' buddy o' pal" kind of relationship I see with some Way/ex-Way folks. These men deeply revered God. They trembled in his presence. They took sin & transgressions seriously and knew they had to answer to God.
I think God expects a bit more awe and reverence (fear/phobos) than what I see with a lot of folks who want to ham it up with God, like he's a fishing pal or drinking buddy. Not saying anyone here does that, but I do know several ex-TW folks round my area that do.
OLdies,
All the above are true, except the one where you say "there is nothing to fear". The Bible tells us of many things we are not to fear. However, God Himself is not one of those things.
BTW, you never did attempt to address the New Testament scriptures I posted that clearly say we are to fear (phobos) God. Why not give them a stab? Or do you just ignore them cause they don't fit with your belief?
For starters, here are a few verses to consider.
Act 2:43, Act 5:5, Act 5:11, Act 9:31, Act 19:17, Rom 3:18, Rom 8:15, 1Cr 2:3, 2Cr 5:11, 2Cr 7:1, Eph 5:21, Phl 2:12, 1Pe 1:17, 1Peter 3:15, 1John 4:18.
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penguin
Hmm
Ephesians 4: 17-32 gives us all types of information about putting off old behavior and put on the actions of the new man which is created in righteousness.
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Grieve means to make sorrowful, offend, hurt
I certainly wouldn't want to do that to my Father.
I do find interesting that the Greek word for "fear" is phobos. That puts a whole new slant on things and does deserve reconsideration.
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oldiesman
I do admit that I understand and still believe VP's version of fearing God as meaning reverance and respect.
Different from "fear", which I liken to a mouse running away from a cat.
In contrast, godly fear is having awe and reverence for God, but not wanting to flee from him, like a mouse would fear a cat, or like a lamb would fear a lion.
I see God as a God of love, and as such wants us to come boldly to him, not see him as a killer we are to run from.
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CKnapp3
While we are on the subject of fear and CES, I would recommend a teaching by John Lynn entitled "Everything You Wanted To Know About Fear, But Were Afraid to Ask", available from the CES/STFI bookstore.
In it, he debunks a lot of the erroneous teaching TWI had on the subject of fear.
:)-->
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Raf
Hmm... maybe this'll come in handy in Goey and Oldies' dialogue...
What does phobos mean? Why would God use it to describe how He wants us to approach Him?
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TheInvisibleDan
OM,
Hell must be freezing over because again I agree with this and your comments which followed on the different types of "fear".
However, I digress that this view actually originated with VP. One need not turn to any esoteric volume to locate the various possible meanings to "fear" in the Bible, which according to a cursory glance of the Strong Hebrew/Greek dictionaries of my "Online Bible" software, can indeed also mean "reverence, awe, and astonishment".
When I consider "fear" - aside from the cautionary, parental "don't-play-with-those scissors-or-you'll-poke-out-your-eye" - it's also generally a powerful, involuntary , uncontrollable reaction, emotion or sense that a person does not usually consciously invoke.
What person here, for example, would not be trembling with pure astonishment if Jesus was to suddenly materialize before your eyes and start speaking to you? Perhaps many here - if only secretly, or if only in passing- have earnestly yearned for such an extraordinary, personal epiphany to occur their lives?
In any event, that we may be concerned with a number of meanings underlyng "fear" is not without validity.
Danny
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Goey
Oldies,
Consider Hebrew's 12:28
Godly fear in this verse is from the Greek "eulabeia", not "phobos". Reverence here is from the Greek "aidos". Neither of these is synonymous with "phobos".
So you still haven't explained why phobos is used in the verses I listed, except that you offer a new definition for it. If the writers had meant "godly fear" don't you think they would have used some other word than phobos?
Danny, all I see is you agreeing with Oldies and offering little of substance concerning why phobos was used in those verses instead of entrepo, aidos, or even eulabeia. How did phobos suddenly develop a new meaning?
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TheEvan
Nothing theological here. Just the observation that the kind of narrow teaching featured in that masterpiece of fractured theology known as Piffle leads to some silly conclusions.
In Wierwillia, fear bad, confidence good.
I work at heights. I have learned that confidence bad, fear good.
I've come to think of much fear as a gift of god...responses he gave us in order to survive.
Thus, when confronted with a burning building, fear tells me not go in there. I didn't and here I am.
I suppose one could say that Wierwille wasn't talking about that kind of fear and that he was talking only about bad fear. Or perhaps irrational fear. Fine. But he didn't say that.
The small tidy boxes into which he tried to stuff his theology eventually prove to be much too small.
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Linda Z
Maggie Muggins here. From my overall reading of the Bible, I still go with the reverence definition, but with a very healthy dose of awe mixed in. Awe at God's power, perfect love and so much more. It's more than respect and reverence, but it doesn't make me afraid of Him.
I do my best to honor and obey God, but it's because I'm grateful for all He's done for me, not because I'm I'm afraid of His wrath or His awesome power. Didn't Jesus Christ lay down his life for me? Therefore, I can't see quaking in my boots when I come to him in prayer. Nope. I'm with Danny and Oldies on this one.
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TheInvisibleDan
No, I'm also agreeing with Vine (Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words), and as well as James Strong (Strongs Concordance -Online Bible edition). According to Vines, the primary meaning of PHOBOS "first had the meaning of flight, that which is caused by being scared; then, that which may cause flight...." which is then followed by "reverential fear (i) of God, as a controlling motive of the life, not a mere fear of His power and righteouss retribution, but of wholesome dread of displeasing Him, a fear that banishes the terror that shrinks from His presence."
Now look over here at this chart from "Strongs" :
As well as this one here:
I'm not above contemplating the possibility of "new meaning" that might fill the old wineskins of these ancient words. Christians are known to have done that, and even relished in it, Goey. I don't exclude the possibility of phobos carrying other meanings and shades of meaning besides its most literal. Why do you insist that "fear" carry only one meaning, against Strong and Vine? Hey, these are the scholarly geeks... I haven't even needed to touch the works of the "oriental" fruitcakes ...
Danny
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shazdancer
"Oriental fruitcakes," Danny? You made a funny...!
:D--> 
:D--> 
:D-->
I do think that TWI was so caught up in the You Are Righteous Now aspect of Christianity that they threw out balancing that with fear -- fear of displeasing the One you love, fear of your works coming to naught because they weren't godly, and a healthy respect for what God could have done to you, were it not for His mercy.
Wierwille loved the "freedom in Christ" doctrine, of course, because he wanted the freedom to do a whole lot of ill without repercussions.
Regards,
Shaz
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